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  • PROFESSOR MEETS GUN: Part Eight -- We're All That Way

    By UD July 13, 2008 6:43 pm

    "Guns," conclude two Yale law professors in a recent Emory Law Journal, "are at the center of an expressive struggle between the adherents of competing visions of the good society - one egalitarian and communal, the other hierarchic and individualistic."

    Yeah, and which is which? "The more hierarchical and individualistic individuals were in their orientations, the more they opposed control; and the more egalitarian and solidaristic they were, the more they supported it."

    I know ... Must people write like this? Individualistic individuals? Is solidaristic a word?

    But put that aside. UD's back from her blogging break -- though she's still on vacation, negotiating Hurricane Bertha-inspired tides at Rehoboth Beach, Delaware -- and ready again to shoulder the subject of guns. She's grateful to one of her Inside Higher Ed readers for linking her to the Emory piece, because it moves her along in her attempt to understand and take up a position somewhere on the control/confiscation continuum...

    The piece argues, just as Mark Tushnet does (see this post), that we can waste time fighting about whether lots of legal guns lying about decreases or increases crime (it almost certainly increases suicide), but we're not really going to be able to answer these questions decisively. It makes more sense to understand the cultural divide underlying the gun conflict in America, and then to attempt to get the warring parties to understand one another and possibly moderate their positions. As Wendy Kaminer writes, "Debates about gun ownership and gun control are driven more by values and ideology than by pragmatism - and hardly at all by the existing empirical research, which is complex and inconclusive."
    **********************************

    UD's problem with the fundamental divide on offer here between hierarchical and individualistic gunnies and egalitarian and solidaristic anti-gunnies is that it doesn't map all that well onto professors.

    Of course, you could argue that the large national conversation about guns the guys writing in the Emory journal want to start doesn't need my lot to get itself going; but this IHE series is titled professor meets gun, and its focus for better or worse is on one professor typifying one form of antipathy to guns. So let's proceed.

    Let's begin with this excerpt from a recent essay about being a tenured professor in America today. The anonymous author tries to account for the incessant bickering in his department:

    Although I'm not even at the midpoint of my career, I'm already worried about the repetitious nature of my job. Teaching the same classes year in and year out would seem to be a one-way ticket to tedium. On bad days, you feel like the protagonist from the movie Groundhog Day. On good days, you feel motivated to discover new texts, develop new courses, and strike out in new directions.

    But innovation requires effort, and opportunities for change are often limited by curricula, concerns about coverage, and other constraints. Perhaps we initiate and perpetuate interdepartmental fights in order to keep boredom at bay. Not that we do that consciously or calculatingly, but at some unrecognized level, aren't we itching for intensity? Tenured for life, we perhaps need the drama of conflict to inject the thrill of spontaneous emotion and extreme passion into our stable and predictable existences. Conflict might be our unacknowledged antidote for ennui.

    This comment goes to the deep, almost problematic, sense of security UD has always known -- and, as a tenured professor, will, at least in her public existence, rather likely continue to know. (Recall this post, in which UD describes her life of remarkable security, a security that started at birth.)

    Professors are so bored in their stable, predictable lives, so oppressed by ennui, that they provoke conflict in their little group just so that, for a few moments, they can feel intensity, drama, and passion.

    Of course, this enviably calm life is supposed to help professors think freely and creatively; one might say that a professor's passion is supposed to come from her scholarly and pedagogical activity... though mainly from her scholarly activity, since tenure is ultimately about the provision of intellectual freedom... Yet here we've got a young professor stressing the depressing non-eventfulness of an academic's life, the almost maddening nothingness of it. The claim is that there's an acutely felt tedium to a tenured professor's days, and it's so fierce that the professor will pick fights to give herself a sense of being alive.

    **************************************

    Whatever else you might say about this picture of dead academics stimulating themselves through quarrel, it doesn't exactly describe the social solidarity the law journal authors evoke. Most professors are pro-gun control, but are they really the egalitarian communal types the article associates with this political position? It's not very communal to be fighting all the time. And as for egalitarian...

    UD can think of few more hierarchical settings than American universities. Professors live in a tightly titled universe (lecturer, assistant, associate, full, named, named in three departments, named in four schools, man of letters, man about town, Man Booker recipient...); they're constantly comparing their schools to other schools (the US News and World Report rankings are notorious obsessions, and now there's that other thing, that ranking of public intellectuals.... plus, what, Posner's book?...), and they keep close watch on everyone's course load and annual report and article production, with many departments ranking each tenured faculty member each year in terms of productivity and reputation.

    This is one of the big reasons why our universities are the envy of the world. They're full of restless quarrelsome status-obsessives. You want communal egalitarians, go to an Italian university.

    ****************************************

    It's noon. There's a fine breeze and a full sun and a beach steps away. UD will conclude this post with the following thought: We're all that way. We're all of us - Americans - hierarchic and individualistic. At least we're much more hierarchic and individualistic than we are communal and egalitarian. People characterize tenured radicals as communal and egalitarian, but they're really not. They just look that way because they're bored.

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Comments on PROFESSOR MEETS GUN: Part Eight -- We're All That Way

  • Posted by Ashley Higgins on July 14, 2008 at 4:55am EDT
  • "Armed with a pertinent but pluralistic expressive idiom, those who
    favor compromise and accommodation will finally stand a fighting chance to
    defeat those who insist that everyone see only their vision of America."

    It took the two authors a long time to get to the point, but there it is: Armed "moderates" will fight to defeat my vision of America. How arrogant! When did "moderates" become the pigs in Animal Farm?

  • Posted by David Sherrill on July 14, 2008 at 7:40am EDT
  • The author says: "People characterize tenured radicals as communal and egalitarian, but they’re really not. They just look that way because they’re bored."

    No, I believe it is done that way because that is the way tenured radicals vote, speak, and teach.

    I refer you to John Lott's More Guns, Less Crime.

  • bucking the stereotype (or at least trying)
  • Posted by John J. Ronald , Librarian I at Texas Woman's University on July 14, 2008 at 10:15am EDT
  • (quote)
    "one egalitarian and communal, the other hierarchic and individualistic...”

    These may describe general trends, and if so, it's unfortunate, but as you say, it doesn't always map out that way.

    I tend to be egalitarian and in favor of close knit communities, and suspicious of hierarchies, but I have a healthy respect for the rights of the individual, and view the right of self defense of the individual as non-negotiable, and further view that a personal firearm is the best tool an individual can have at their disposal to insure their personal defense against criminal oppression, and that the individual's ability to do that effectively in turn makes the whole community safer.

    Thus while I normally respect Dr. A. Etzioni's general propositions, I'm appalled at his admonitions over 2nd Amendment research.

    The reducing crime rates in areas where Concealed carry permits have been enacted into law, I believe, bear out the hypothesis that improving the ability of the individual to defend herself helps the community as a whole. The increasing crime rates in areas where guns are still tightly controlled, moreover, can't be ignored and speak volumes as to the undesirability of restricting the law abiding individual's capacity for self defense.

    While the UK may claim that "gun crime" as a whole has gone down, violent crime as a whole has gone up--not much comfort. The Lemming-like faith that "the police can always protect us" is the height of naivte and a lie that will get one killed. The police have no legal obligation to protect individuals, not even to respond to 911 calls. Many rank-and-file police quietly concede that for a homeowner facing a burglar or home-invader, a gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone.

    While libraries tend to foster communities and librarians tend to have an egalitarian ethic (service to all, without regard to income level, etc), we also strongly respect the rights of individuals to dissent from communal norms, and the library is often a haven for such "freethinkers", as it should be. I don't know about other librarians, and suspect I'm probably in the minority, but I strongly support the right to keep (in the home) and bear (on one's person at all times) arms.

    The latest attempt of the gun banning lobby to link guns to suicides is disengenous and one need only point to Japan and its suicide rate to show that where guns are not available, other means will be taken by the truly determined. Moreover, as someone who supports the right to die, I'd rather see someone quietly end their own lives in the privacy of their home rather than leaping out in front of a train I might be on or leaping from a tall building where I might be walking below on the sidewalk.

    Freedom also means the freedom to screw up and make bad choices (and be held accountable for them). We need less Nanny statism regulating "for our own good" and more individual autonomy and accountability. I don't see this as necessarily 100% antithetical to an overall "communitarian" spirit where we can reasonably agree on Clean air laws, Universal health care, etc.

  • Posted by Orwell on July 14, 2008 at 2:20pm EDT
  • How about framing it as a dichotomy between consequentalism (affects crime/suicide) and deontology (the right to bear arms)? It may reduce to individualistic and egalitarian beliefs, but then it may not.

  • Posted by ZerCool on July 15, 2008 at 9:25am EDT
  • As mentioned by one of the other commenters, suicide rate and the availability of firearms aren't linked. From http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suiciderates/en/ - Japan's suicide rate in 1999 was just over 50 suicides per 100,000 population. The United States, in the same time frame, was around 21 per 100,000. A firearm does make a suicide attempt less of an "attempt" and more of a "sure thing", but obviously, if someone is choosing to die, they will find a way to do it.

    However, suicide rates weren't the direction I was intending to go. I keyed in on the "egalitarian and communal" versus "hierarchical and individualistic". I think you will actually find that most gun owners are egalitarian individualists. That is to say, "I'm no better or worse than the next man, and that means he has no business telling me how to live my life." There's an old saw that has seen t-shirts, bumper stickers, sig files, etc. "God made men. Sam Colt made men equal."

    A firearm is the great equalizer. I believe in a previous post a commenter left the "force and reason" essay; that essay describes the equalizing power of a gun better than I might. To expand on the theories he presented in that essay and relate it to the hierarchical (authoritarian?) society suggested by the Yale profs, owning a gun eliminates the hierarchy of society. Your job, bank account, title, or any other "status" item means ... nothing. Your only hope to get me to go your way is to convince me through logic and reason: to form the basis of a community. (Presuming, of course, the existence of common goals to begin with.)

    A gun eliminates or reduces the threat of an authoritarian society. Armed revolt against authority is both an American foundation and an effective means of regaining control. There is a little piece of paper, that begins with, "When in the course of human events..." It is a tremendous piece of writing, and worth re-reading if you haven't looked at it lately. Please note that disarmament of the populace has been an effective tool of dictators for generations; Pol Pot, Hitler, Mugabe... a long tradition, to be sure.

    I have not read the Yale article yet - perhaps this afternoon - but I also find that the language used in the quote provided is ... obnoxious. Pretentious? I consider myself intelligent and educated. I did rather well on my SATs (although it has been some time...), was recruited by more than a few universities, had AP classes ... blah blah blah. Language like that used serves only to narrow the population capable of comprehension: it's an elitist tactic designed to limit debate. Simple ideas should be expressed in simple language, if we truly wish to form an egalitarian and communal society. Thought should be the property of the people, not those who own a thesaurus. :-) (Feh! Rambling again!)

    Yes, I have a pet peeve against intellectual snobbery. I work in an industry and location that frequently puts me in contact with Ivy-league professors, and as you said, they are title-hungry. More than once, I have spoken to a professor or higher-up administrator on the phone, asked for a name, and gotten a huffy, "You don't KNOW who I am?" Quite honestly, sir, I don't CARE who you are. You called me for help, remember? Your title, salary, or letters before and after your name don't impress me in the least.

    An adult that I consider a role model in my life once told me that when I took a date out to dinner, I should watch how she treated the waiter/waitress. That really rings true in all areas of life - if you truly believe in equality for all, then everyone should be treated with the same level of courtesy and professionalism.

    In any case - I'm not quite sure how this relates to guns and control - but I think I'm done rambling at you for the moment. I hope some of it made sense; I still need my morning coffee.

    "An armed society is a polite society." - Robert Heinlein

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson

  • Suicide
  • Posted by UD on July 15, 2008 at 4:50pm EDT
  • I take the commenters' point that the suicide claim is also subject to dispute; but what seems persuasive to me is that for the many suicides that are impulsive, the presence of a gun in the house can make a big difference. Ease of access to something that can almost certainly and instantly kill you can, in the right mood, be a very, very dangerous thing.

  • Posted by ZerCool on July 16, 2008 at 8:55am EDT
  • what seems persuasive to me is that for the many suicides that are impulsive, the presence of a gun in the house can make a big difference. Ease of access to something that can almost certainly and instantly kill you can, in the right mood, be a very, very dangerous thing.

    While I see this rapidly devolving into a debate about the morality of suicide or assisted suicide, that isn't the key.

    This mentality of "it can hurt you so you shouldn't have it" is precisely the "nanny state" mentioned by an earlier commenter.

    Yes, a gun - of any type - is arguably the quickest and most effective method of suicide out there. However, let's examine some other options. Consider the speed and lethality of each:
    - driving a vehicle into a bridge abutment or overpass at 90-100mph: nearly 100% lethal, takes a few seconds longer than pulling a trigger.

    - asphyxiation by hanging: nearly 100% lethal. Done correctly (i.e., correct fall distance) it actually will snap the spine instead of asphyxiating the victim and result in near-instant death, but if it doesn't, a fairly slow (several minute) death is occurring.

    - exsanguination (see, big words!) by cutting of the wrists: sometimes lethal. The time factor involved plus the sharp stimulus of cutting the skin tends to pull people away from this one.

    - Carbon Monoxide poisoning: relatively slow, but unless discovered in short order, 100% lethal. Painless: you go to sleep and don't wake up.

    - Jump from height: lethality depends on the distance fallen and surface impacted. Time is near-instant. Fear of heights is usually the stopping factor here.

    - Pills/alcohol: lethality depends on the quantity and type taken, and whether or not the patient is discovered. Often painless.

    Those that are determined to die WILL DIE. Whether by gunshot, or any other number of methods, they are going to find a way to do so. Are you going to suggest, perhaps, that we bubble-wrap the world? Build no building over ten feet in height? Bulldoze in all the canyons, gorges, fjords, cliffs, and mountains? No long build bridges? Eliminate enclosed garages, gas stoves, charcoal grills? Require all medications to be administered by the direct care of a physician? License the purchasers of rope and require proof of intent - climbing, sailing, etc?

    It is not possible to save the world from itself. Trying to do so incurs resentment and anger.

    I think much of this goes back to the sheltered life you mentioned in an earlier post. To be blunt: have you ever lost a close friend to gun violence? A near acquaintance?

    I have. A classmate in high school shot himself. No, we weren't close friends, but were on the same track team. I don't blame the gun. He chose to die.

    My current life finds me a volunteer firefighter and a 911 dispatcher. There is no such thing as shelter in those jobs: I hear and see the best and worst there is in the world. I have been to fatal auto accidents, self-inflicted wounds, overdoses, and many many other places most people will never see. I have had gunshots, stabbings, hangings, drownings, and suicide discoveries by any number of methods on the other end of the phone with me.

    The world we live in is not rainbow-colored and pretty. Bad things happen around us every single day. Most people choose to ignore those things because they do not have the coping mechanisms to deal with them.

    I had a link to a CDC page of searchable death statistics by age and cause. Once I find that again I'll put a link in here.

    It's worth remembering this, though:
    Far more people die annually in auto accidents than die from firearms (accidental or intentional). Shall we ban cars?

  • Posted by JO on July 16, 2008 at 10:40am EDT
  • "Should we ban cars?"

    Maybe if the only point of cars was to kill people, then we should ban cars.

    Plus, the point about Japan and there being alternative means to commit suicide has no bearing on whether the legal possession of guns leads to higher suicide rates. Welcome to controlling for other variables. Also, if there is so much research on gun ownership reducing crime rates, where are the citations? The onus of proof here is on the gun-nuts as their conclusion is so wildly counterintuitive.

  • Posted by Kevin Baker , Guns do not cause suicide on July 16, 2008 at 10:00pm EDT
  • Although it seems to many that the association between high levels of gun ownership and high levels of suicide are linked, it is emphatically not the case. A recent AP story breathlessly reported the shocking news that 55% of deaths by firearm in the U.S. are suicides rather than homicides.

    http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/06/30/1626220-surprising-fact-half-of-gun-deaths-are-suicides

    I would quote the piece, but the AP is being rather touchy about bloggers using or even linking to their copyrighted materials.

    What the story did not mention is that the World Health Organization reports that, of the G8 nations (Russia, Japan, France, Germany, Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Italy), America ranks sixth for suicide rate among both men and women.

    http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/en/Figures_web0604_table.pdf

    Japan, with essentially no privately held firearms, ranks second for men and first for women. France ranks third for both.

    Further, the National Academies of Science released a report in 2004 on all of the available research on gun control laws, Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review. Among the interesting things they reported, the implementation of the Brady Law 3-day "cooling off" period for gun purchases had only one statistically detectable effect: It changed the method by which men 55 years of age and older committed suicide. It did not affect the rate, merely the method.

    Americans don't kill themselves all that often in comparison to other countries, but when they truly mean to end their lives they choose a firearm more often than any other method. If they intend a "cry for help" they select some other method. If they intend to end their lives, there are literally unlimited other options.

    UD, you wrote: "Ease of access to something that can almost certainly and instantly kill you can, in the right mood, be a very, very dangerous thing." You might think that, but the data doesn't support it. The existing empirical research may in many cases be "complex and inconclusive," but (Wendy Kaminer notwithstanding) suicide is not one of those cases.

    John J. Ronald comments that "While the UK may claim that 'gun crime' as a whole has gone down, violent crime as a whole has gone up—not much comfort." They don't claim that. They acknowledge that gun crime - in particular handgun crime - has increased since the 1996 "Mr. and Mrs. British Subject, turn all your licensed, registered handguns in" ban. They also acknowledge that other violent crime as increased as well, but not to levels that many in the UK believe reflect the reality on the ground there. It's worse than anyone wants to admit.

  • Guns and Suicide Rates
  • Posted by UD on July 17, 2008 at 5:05am EDT
  • Kevin: A recent New York Times Magazine article challenges some of your claims. Here's an excerpt:

    ' Even though guns account for less than 1 percent of all American suicide attempts, their extreme fatality rate — anywhere from 85 percent and 92 percent, depending on how the statistics are compiled — means that they account for 54 percent of all completions. In 2005, the last year for which statistics are available, that translated into about 17,000 deaths. Public-health officials like Hemenway can point to a mountain of research going back 40 years that shows that the incidence of firearm suicide runs in close parallel with the prevalence of firearms in a community. In a 2007 study that grouped the 15 states with the highest rate of gun ownership alongside the six states with the lowest (each group had a population of about 40 million), Hemenway and his associates found that when it came to all nonfirearm methods, the two populations committed suicide in nearly equal numbers. The more than three-times-greater prevalence of firearms in the “high gun” states, however, translated into a more than three-times-greater incidence of firearm suicides, which in turn translated into an annual suicide rate nearly double that of the “low gun” states. In the same vein, their 2004 study of seven Northeastern states found that the 3.5 times greater rate of gun suicides in Vermont than in New Jersey exactly matched the difference in gun ownership between the two states (42 percent of all households in Vermont opposed to 12 percent in New Jersey). From these and other such studies, the Injury Control Research Center has extrapolated that a 10 percent reduction in firearm ownership in the United States would translate into a 2.5 percent reduction in the overall suicide rate, or about 800 fewer deaths a year.

    Beyond sheer lethality, however, what makes gun suicide attempts so resistant to traditional psychological suicide-prevention protocols is the high degree of impulsivity that often accompanies them. In a 1985 study of 30 people who had survived self-inflicted gunshot wounds, more than half reported having had suicidal thoughts for less than 24 hours, and none of the 30 had written suicide notes. This tendency toward impulsivity is especially common among young people — and not only with gun suicides. In a 2001 University of Houston study of 153 survivors of nearly lethal attempts between the ages of 13 and 34, only 13 percent reported having contemplated their act for eight hours or longer. To the contrary, 70 percent set the interval between deciding to kill themselves and acting at less than an hour, including an astonishing 24 percent who pegged the interval at less than five minutes.

    The element of impulsivity in firearm suicide means that it is a method in which mechanical intervention — or “means restriction” — might work to great effect. As to how, Dr. Matthew Miller, the associate director of the Injury Control Research Center, outlined for me a number of very basic steps. Storing a gun in a lockbox, for example, slows down the decision-making process and puts that gun off-limits to everyone but the possessor of the key. Similarly, studies have shown that merely keeping a gun unloaded and storing its ammunition in a different room significantly reduces the odds of that gun being used in a suicide.

    “The goal is to put more time between the person and his ability to act,” Miller said. “If he has to go down to the basement to get his ammunition or rummage around in his dresser for the key to the gun safe, you’re injecting time and effort into the equation — maybe just a couple of minutes, but in a lot of cases that may be enough.”

    It reminded me of what Richard Seiden said about people thwarted from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. When I mentioned this to Miller, he smiled. “It’s very much the same,” he said. “The more obstacles you can throw up, the more you move it away from being an impulsive act. And once you’ve done that, you take a lot of people out of the game. If you look at how people get into trouble, it’s usually because they’re acting impulsively, they haven’t thought things through. And that’s just as true with suicides as it is with traffic accidents.” '

  • Suicide
  • Posted by Kevin Baker , You'll forgive me if I dis Hemenway on July 17, 2008 at 12:50pm EDT
  • UD, I invite you to do some research into Dr. David Hemenway and his work. Let's just say that it appears to more people than just me that his work tends to support his conclusions rather than the other way around.

    With respect to young people and suicide, I also invite you to research Australia's recent experience. For quite a long time there firearms were a significant method of suicide for young people, particularly males. The rate of suicide for the age group 15-24 tripled in Australia between 1960 and 1990 according to this site:

    http://www.nisu.flinders.edu.au/pubs/bulletin15/bulletin15sup.html#Heading1

    After 1990 the rate of suicide seemed to stabilize. What also changed after 1990 was the method of suicide. According to an Australian government report (link is broken):

    "n 1972, the leading method of suicide for young men was using firearms or explosives (44%). However, by 1992, suicide by hanging, strangulation or suffocation had become their leading method of suicide (33%). The shift in method occurred in the mid to late 1980s. During this period the death rate for young male suicide by firearms and explosives decreased marginally, from 9 to 8 per 100,000, while the rate for suicides by hanging, strangulation and suffocation increased substantially, from 3 to 8 per 100,000. These data contradict much of the recent literature which has focused on the greater use of firearms as the cause of the increase in young male suicides.
    "In contrast, the most prevalent method used by young women was poisoning by solid or liquid substances, accounting for 29% of cases in 1988-92. Although the incidence of suicide from hanging, strangulation and suffocation also increased among young women during the mid to late 1980s the corresponding rate was much lower than that of young men (less than 2 per 100,000). Firearms were used in 13% of cases and hanging, strangulation and suffocation in 24%."

    Note that during the period in which strangulation overtook firearms as the leading method of suicide, Australia passed no significant gun control legislation.

    If someone wants to end their life, they will find a way. Firearms are not the only nearly certain method. Both the rate of suicide and the choice of method appear to be largely cultural. For example, Canada has a slightly higher suicide rate than the U.S. The leading method of suicide there is asphyxiation.

    Dr. Hemenway is an anti-gun activist. I think this fact affects his work, and I am far from being alone in this. His conclusion is that the mere presence of a firearm causes suicide, yet if that were the case, suicide in America would rival the rates seen in gun-free Japan. I'm sorry, UD, it doesn't pass the smell test.

    The biggest problem in the gun debate (and this was noted in both the 1983 report Under the Gun: Weapons, Crime and Violence in America and the 2004 report Firearms and Violence: A Critical Review) is that almost all of the research that is done is heavily partisan. In short, both sides cherry-pick and lie. The lying and cherry-picking is not apparent to anyone not deeply involved in the topic, and the media, which is self-admittedly partisan on the subject itself, unquestioningly and enthusiastically passes along the anti-gun conclusions, and denigrates (often justifiably) the pro-gun ones.

    I've been studying this topic in detail since 1995. I know both sides lie. But I also know which side lies the most egregiously, blatantly, and shamelessly.

  • Posted by Michael on July 17, 2008 at 5:45pm EDT
  • "Almost certainly increases suicide rates"? I presume that by the use of the word "almost" the author is telling us that although there is no empirical evidence for their claim, they'll make it anyway and feel like a social scientist. Guns are far from being the most popular, in fact they have declined by nearly 2/3 in the last 20 years and figure significantly down the suicide method popularity list. Hanging is the number one method chosen by males, poison/overdose is the number one method chosen by females. On the other hand, in places where conceal and carry laws have been passed, there has been a vey significant drop in violent crime. It seems that the threat of confronting a bullet from a non-suicidal would-be victim is a deterent to crime. "Almost certainly" this was accidently left out of the discussion on gun ownership by the author.

  • Hello, JO
  • Posted by DFS on July 18, 2008 at 7:45am EDT
  • Is there no such evidence in John Lott's work?

  • Posted by Jim Smolen on July 18, 2008 at 5:50pm EDT
  • "Is there no such evidence in John Lott’s work?"

    There isn't if you don't look for it.

  • Lott on Suicide and Guns
  • Posted by UD on July 18, 2008 at 7:40pm EDT
  • I've been reading Lott's website, and here are excerpts from a recent piece of his on the subject:

    "[A Washington Post writer] points to a 1991 study in the New England Journal of Medicine that claims that after examining data from 1968 to 1987 'the gun ban correlated with an abrupt 25 percent decline in suicides in the city' and that the 'decline was entirely driven by a decline in firearm-related suicide.'

    Yes, suicides did indeed decline after the ban.

    However, it is unlikely to have much to do with banning guns as non-gun suicides fell even slightly faster than gun suicides (see the graph).

    If the gun ban caused the drop in suicides, why would the non-gun suicide rate fall at least as much as the gun suicide rate?

    A far more likely explanation is that something else was changing and causing people to not want to commit suicide, no matter what method they might consider.

    ... The National Academy of Sciences released a 2004 report that comprehensively reviewed academic research studying guns and suicide.

    The panel set up under the Clinton administration surveyed the extensive literature from public health, economics, and criminology. The Academy concluded that 'Some gun control policies may reduce the number of gun suicides, but they have not yet been shown to reduce the overall risk of suicide in any population.'

    The association between gun ownership and gun suicide was 'modest' and not particularly consistent.

    In addition, the panel pointed out that even the studies that claim more guns increase gun suicides are 'unclear' on why the relationship exists.

    Yet, more importantly, the presence of guns had no impact on total suicides.

    ...But even if those seeking to ban guns are right that more guns mean more suicides, who is best positioned to weigh the risks and benefits from letting people protect themselves?"

    I think I should clarify for my readers where I stand on this. My saying that it seems to me likely guns lying around the house increase the possibility that someone living in the house might impulsively commit suicide (social scientists distinguish two kinds of suicide, one impulsive and the other planned) doesn't at all mean that I'm using this possibility to make an anti-gun argument. I'm not. I'm trying to understand guns, and I'm thinking, as Lott writes, about risks and benefits. Readers of this blog shouldn't be so quick on the trigger finger.

    One of Lott's commenters says this:

    "Yes, having a gun in the home increases the probability of injury/death with the firearm being the item involved. Having a chainsaw in the home increases the probability of injury/death with a chainsaw."

    And then he goes on to say that this in no way implies that we should, because of this, ban private ownership of guns. I agree.

  • Lott's website
  • Posted by UD on July 18, 2008 at 7:40pm EDT
  • Here's the link to Lott's site.

    http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2008/07/new-op-ed-at-fox-news-guns-and-suicide.html

  • Moral implications.....
  • Posted by Jim on July 19, 2008 at 10:00am EDT
  • There's a very important moral quandry here that no one has mentioned yet. I've borrowed it from Jeff Snyder's incredibly thought provoking book "Nation of Cowards".

    Is it morally right for society to pursue a policy of "the greatest good for the greatest number", regardless of the circumstances experienced by the individual?

    In other words, why should the suicidal tendencies of party A prevent party B from defending herself from rape and murder? What right does the government have to make such a judgment, even if say, the presence of guns does increase suicide rates? Is not party B entitled to whatever means are necessary to preserve her existence?

    Forget utility, this argument goes to the core of how we view the value of individuals relative to broader "social good".

    BTW, "Nation of Cowards" addresses the moral implications of gun control, and explores what that says about our views of ourselves. It does not seek to justify gun ownership or control (although the author is decidedly pro). He is a lawyer and is not afraid to directly espouse the arguments and motivations of both sides of the argument. The work is exceptionally well written and thought provoking. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in doing some alternative reading on the subject (if you can find a copy).

  • @ JO
  • Posted by ZerCool on July 19, 2008 at 2:35pm EDT
  • Jo, empirical research has been done on the effect of concealed carry laws on violent crime. Dr. John Lott is one of the more commonly referenced, and published his work under the title, "More Guns, Less Violent Crime". His research covers a fifteen year span and documents a significant drop in violent crime in all states that enacted concealed carry laws.

    http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html

    Mr. Benjamin Kepple did research on Texas specifically and spanned the time period before and after the enactment of their concealed carry laws. His research indicated a 12% drop in aggravated assault, 20%+ drop in robberies, 20%+ decline in rape, and a decrease of nearly 1/3 in murders. Violent crimes as a whole have declined by just over 12%.

    http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?Article_ID=9367&page=article

    Clearly, there is a correlation here.

    I'll also address your first point, that guns are intended only for killing. This is a visceral, emotional reaction to the unfamiliar. I personally own about 15 guns. Three pistols, and a dozen or so long guns of various types. Owning these guns has not induced me to kill myself, or other people. I *have* used them to kill - and then I dressed, butchered, and ate what I killed. The rest of the time, the victims of my irresistable violent urges are tin cans, paper plates, and just occasionally, clay pigeons. I've fired tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition - and not a single one has so much as injured a person.

    Jo, I'll extend the same invite to you that I gave to UD: if you find yourself in the Upstate New York area, please let me know. I will be more than happy to meet you (and a friend if you so desire) at the range, run you through a safety briefing, explain the operation of several types of firearms, and then allow you to try each of them. I'll provide all the firearms, ammunition, and safety equipment.

    My email is my name above, at mac.com. Please, feel free to join me.

  • @Zercool
  • Posted by JO on July 23, 2008 at 2:15pm EDT
  • The Kepple piece only concerns Texas and as such doesn't control for secular trends in crime rates or indeed any other variables (so it is not clear there is actually a correlation). The Lott and Mustard article in Journal of Legal Studies is very interesting and I am surprised at the results, but still, this study is looking at the effect of concealed carry laws, rather than the effect of legal gun ownership. So, any study of the US is automatically problematic because there is no control. These studies of CC in the US are based on a comparison between a situation where those intent on crime have guns and potential victims have to carry them openly, and where those intent on crime have guns and victims can carry them concealed. The key question in my mind is a comparison between a country with no guns and a country with more guns than people.

    Lott and Mustard admit that even if their thesis is correct, there might be substitution effects, one of which might be that the introduction of concealed carry (CC) laws would push violent crime into neighboring areas. This means that their projections as to how many murders would be prevented if everywhere had CC laws are doubtful.

    Another point is that the rational response to their research is to enact CC laws to deter criminals but not to own a gun oneself because of the inherent dangers of accident and emotional misuse.

    And as for guns being only for killing, not only am I not unfamiliar with guns (I was a rifle-shooter at school for 6 years) but the fact that you personally use guns to shoot at tin-cans does not alter the conceptual point that guns are made to kill people/animals and there is no other use for them. Chainsaws are used to cut trees or whatever, as well as murder people. The only function of guns is to shoot things and they have no place being at large in a civilized society.

  • More Evidence
  • Posted by James Smolen on July 23, 2008 at 3:05pm EDT
  • You asked if there was any evidence, and there is. I'm glad you read enough to quibble with the findings. But Lott is not alone. You should also see Gary Kleck's work (Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1) to find the prevalence with which guns are used in self defense. Kleck started this work in favor of gun control, but could not resist his own findings. You will find this prevalence to be surprising, as did Kleck.

    As to comparisons between countries, that is fraught with differences between whole societies. But since you asked, see:

    Kates, Don B. and Gary Mauser. 2007. “Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?” Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, 2007, pages 649-694. This provides a comparison between many Western countries (only choosing a pair of them would introduce huge amounts of selection bias).

    As for "The only function of guns is to shoot things and they have no place being at large in a civilized society.", there is a wonderful essay about how gun ownership is PROMOTES civilized behavior as it means that the Citizen can only be persuaded and not coerced. I'll see if I can dig it up.

  • Reason and Force
  • Posted by ZerCool on July 24, 2008 at 10:30am EDT
  • @ James, I think this is what you were looking for:

    By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

    Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

    In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

    When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

    The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunken guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

    There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

    People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

    Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

    People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

    The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

    The greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced.

  • @Jo
  • Posted by ZerCool on July 24, 2008 at 11:10am EDT
  • Another point is that the rational response to their research is to enact CC laws to deter criminals but not to own a gun oneself because of the inherent dangers of accident and emotional misuse.

    The logic here baffles me, Jo. Enact CC laws to deter criminals - I'm with you so far - but don't own one because it's unsafe. If you choose not to own one when permitted, that's fine - but telling me *I* am unsafe because I do choose to own firearms doesn't make any sense. It's a blanket statement about all gun owners.

    And as for guns being only for killing, not only am I not unfamiliar with guns (I was a rifle-shooter at school for 6 years) but the fact that you personally use guns to shoot at tin-cans does not alter the conceptual point that guns are made to kill people/animals and there is no other use for them. Chainsaws are used to cut trees or whatever, as well as murder people.

    I'm glad to hear you have some experience with guns - what were you shooting (caliber, distance)?

    Yes, guns are designed to kill, but saying that is their only purpose is a stretch. To use your chainsaw example, they are designed to fell, limb, and buck trees for firewood, or in some cases to prune trees. They have been used in violent crimes, it's true. They've also been used to create art (ice and wood sculpture). To say an item is only intended for one purpose and that purpose only is extremely narrow-minded.

    The only function of guns is to shoot things and they have no place being at large in a civilized society.

    I presume, therefore, that you find American society as a whole to be civilized? I strongly disagree. If this were a truly civilized society, we would not have murders, rapes, robberies, burglaries, muggings, assaults, carjackings, kidnappings, domestic violence, DWI... the list goes on at some length. In a "civilized" society one could presume to be entirely safe in their person and property at all times in any location. Door locks wouldn't be necessary, and I could walk through the meanest neighborhood riffling through a stack of $100 bills without any fear - of course, that mean neighborhood wouldn't exist, because it's civilized!

    Your Utopia does not exist. Violent crime happens every single day, in every community in the country. Wishing it away does nothing; and the police have no duty to protect you.

    Gun control: the argument that a 110-pound woman has the "right" to fight off a 200-pound rapist with her fists.

  • Posted by Kevin Baker , Improper attribution on July 26, 2008 at 7:25am EDT
  • ZerCool, the piece you quoted by "Major Caudill" is incorrectly attributed. It was, in fact, authored by a blogger, Marko Kloos, who now blogs at The Munchkin Wrangler. The piece is entitled "Why the Gun is Civilization," and he first published it on his Blogspot blog on March 23 of this year. It was plagiarized almost immediately. I'm not accusing you of anything! I know it's out there on the intertubes for the unsuspecting to pick up, I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows who actually wrote it.