Minorities and women will always be at the bottom of totem pole

NSF and like organizations should be encouraged to motivate and help women and minorities in science.

However those organizations should not use rhetoric, pamphlets and diagrams to show the problem – they should tackle the problem and solve it.

Discrimination is common in higher education since the teachers have discretionary power of grading [in my view this is the cause – the effect women and minorities are put at the bottom of the totem pole of grading thus denying them any advancement] it is ongoing epidemic.

There are many fables – Dr. White is a hard grader; for the past decade Dr. White did not award grade A to an African American or women, his grades are awarded in a manner drives the minority students bonkers. A is exclusively for Caucasians and Orientals [who speak broken English with accent] B is for recent Caucasians immigrants who speak broken English with twang C is for African Americans and womenD is for African Americans and women.

Dr. White is a much-celebrated teacher in reality; he is a racist with PhD. I fault the administrators for swallowing his grading hook, line and sinker. Thus I counsel African American students to head into the armed forces and athletics, where advancement is not subjective.

David Robertson, Professor at SUNY, at 10:54 am EDT on July 26, 2005

Grading

I do not think Robinson has any basis for his charge the white science faculty grade minority and female students unfairly. Many large classes are machine graded. While I grade math exams by hand, I do not usaually know the student’s race. Further, math & science grading is generally less subjective than in the humanities. His example sounded more like a fable than anything real.

Am I concerned that advisors encourage weak students to take easy courses. How will they ever become strong students if they run from a challenge?

Women have made big gains in some areas of science, but mostly in the bio areas and less in math, physics and engineering. There are cultural biases within student culture and among faculty. These can be subtle and may reveal themselves more in the labs than in grading. (In math programs we do not have labs. Here there may be bigger issues in student culture: girls do not want to be seen as nerds.)

Black Americans have made little progress in the sciences. I think the main problem here is in the K-12 systems and home life. There is a gap between black and white average IQ scores. There is not much college remediation can do that effects IQ, and math & science are g loaded fields. Until this gap is addressed, expect less progress here. I doubt the gap is genetic and support more spending on preschool programs that are cognatively rich and work with parents as well as the kids.

Mike, Math Professor, at 9:06 pm EDT on July 26, 2005

Hi Larry,

Here is a link to the book Black-White Test Score Gap on the New York Times cite:

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/j/jencks-gap.html

You may need to register the read it. Here is an excerpt:

AFRICAN AMERICANS currently score lower than European Americans on vocabulary, reading, and mathematics tests, as well as on tests that claim to measure scholastic aptitude and intelligence. This gap appears before children enter kindergarten (figure 1-1), and it persists into adulthood. It has narrowed since 1970, but the typical American black still scores below 75 percent of American whites on most standardized tests. On some tests the typical American black scores below more than 85 percent of whites.

The black-white test score gap does not appear to be an inevitable fact of nature. It is true that the gap shrinks only a little when black and white children attend the same schools. It is also true that the gap shrinks only a little when black and white families have the same amount of schooling, the same income, and the same wealth. But despite endless speculation, no one has found genetic evidence indicating that blacks have less innate intellectual ability than whites. Thus while it is clear that eliminating the test score gap would require enormous effort by both blacks and whites and would probably take more than one generation, we believe it can be done.

(END QUOTE)

This is a controversial area. Reasonable people can disagree. But, the gap between blacks and whites in societal outcomes is clear. How to address it?

My fear this that there is political pressure for colleges to solve the problem through adult remediation, which does not seem to work, and little political pressure for early childhood programs that might. I was at a Faculty Senate meeting were it was suggested that higher ed groups needed to lobby get funding for us that one legislator wanted for early childhood programs.

Mike, at 10:55 am EDT on July 27, 2005

There is no standardized IQ test

I don’t get it. Why didn’t you provide the name of the entity (government or private) that administers and scores the IQ test. This is a fairly simple item. Instead, you just provide a conclusory quote from a secondary source. The fact is that most people in the US don’t take IQ test because, as I understand it, “IQ tests” are administered by psychologists when treating people for mental defects or illnesses. Therefore, it is unlikely that there is any standardization of IQ tests. I think you have been sold a bill of goods.

Science Prof, I am sorry that you are offended by something someone said. However, lots of people say lots of offensive things. While it is easy to say that there is little “room” for subjective grading, professors (yes, even in the sciences) often fall prey to their own weaknesses, laziness, and other things and, at least in the lower-level science classes often will be biased for or against a specific student. The solution, as I see it, is blind grading of science tests. I have suggested it to more than a few professors. Some have adopted it. Some have rejected it because they think that some students should receive credit for “motivation.” What they really mean is that they want to give good grades to the cute girls. I can’t say that these personal weaknesses create a systemic bias in favor of, or against one group of students.

Larry, at 9:03 am EDT on July 28, 2005

Simple question: who administers the IQ test ?

Mike, If the IQ tests were standardized, then you could simply tell me who administers them and a rough idea of how many people take them each year. For example, the LSAT is administered by the Law School Admission Counsel (lsac.org) and the table at http://www.lsac.org/LSAC.asp?url=lsac/tests-administered.asp reveals how many people took it at each administration from 1987-2005. You can download a sample test here: http://www.lsac.org/pdfs/2005-2006/LSAT-test-new.pdf

If your IQ test were standardized, then you could have persuaded me that they even count the number of people who take it. So, why don’t you convince me of this, and tell me: 1) the name of the entity that administers the IQ test (which you claim results in black people scoring lower than whites); and 2) the number of people that took it in, say, 2001. If you can’t do that, then it would seem that this test isn’t standardized. (By the way, I have that book that you mentioned. None of this basic information is in there.)

Since exams are a vital part of progress into academe (at least initially) it is not a red herring to take seriously the allegations of some that people are biased in grading exams (or giving out final grades.) However, I have not been able to tell what the overall effect of this bias is. Personally, I don’t think that schools should cater to women (beyond treating them the same as men and providing them with bathrooms). I don’t see a need to make it easier for them to study, and since I don’t think that people should be having kids while in school, I don’t see any particular need to “cater” to women by providing them with child care facilities. But, if a school wishes to do this, I would not have a problem with it.

Larry, at 11:30 am EDT on July 28, 2005

Black and White IQ

For centuries now people have maintained there is a difference in Black and white IQ’s. I find this utterly disturbing. As a geneticist there is no basis for intelligence based on race. Mike I have a set of questions for you to see if your hypothesis is true or has some merit?

If there is an intelligence difference between racial groups would Asians the IQ relationship between Asians and whites be further than Asians and Africans? Genetically speaking modern humanity began in Africa and spread throughout the world. If every one is a descended from African ancestor how does that conflict with your theory? 2. If two children were given the same resources the white child would be smarter? this is not supported in early child development theory. Research color recognition done by Piaget and others

3. European civilization is a baby compared to African civilization. How is it the Ethiopians maintained an empire that was twice the size of rome. The oldest university is not European. Africans and Asians were studying calculus well before Europe began formal education. The Greeks and Romans came to Egypt to study. The inventions of Africans have changed the world, how are they inferior to whites barring white supremacy literature.Will furnish proof when asked

Population Geneticist in Black, Doctoral candidate, at 12:18 pm EDT on August 4, 2005

stay focus

I realized that it was not going to be an easy task attending school/college since I’ve been away from studing for quite a while. However, I am proud of the accomplishments I have made thus far while in class. The life I choose is to stay focus no matter how difficult the task a head will be for me as an adult student. Yes, I have children and they are watching every move I make therefore, the need for me to show them that anything is possible is upon my shoulder. Never the less, some of my class mates were/are the same ages as my daugthers therefore I admire how bright he and she are in refference to listening to the professors. Even though I might not receive the A or B that I believe I deserve there are many categories in life that only a person such as me could have a hi IQ score in while attending to certain situations.

I will not allow the grade that was giving to me by someone who only met me for a few months be my judge or jury, no. On the other hand, I respect the person who is tring to help me while I am working to reach my goals thus, furthering my education.

dean

dean, student at community college of philadelphia, at 8:32 pm EDT on August 17, 2005