July 28, 2005

Dissing the Dalai Lama

The Dalai Lama, who once said he would have been an engineer if he hadn’t become a monk, has been invited to speak at the annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience, in November – to the distress of some society members who are boycotting the meeting.

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“This merger of serious neuroscience with a particular religion is a practical joke because the very recognition of the Dalai Lama relies on the belief in reincarnation,” said Yi Rao, a neurology professor at Northwestern University. “That means that the mind and the body have to be separate for the mind to pass from one generation to another.”

But society officials said that the Dalai Lama has carried on a dialogue with neuroscientists for 15 years. “It has been agreed that the talk will not be about religion or politics,” said Carol Barnes, society president and professor of psychology and neurology at the University of Arizona. The talk will be the first in the “Dialogues between Neuroscience and Society” program, which will bring non-scientists to the annual meeting.

Interest in meditation research has grown, following an article that appeared in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences last November. Advancements in brain imaging in the last decade have shown that connections among brain nerve cells can change throughout life. The study suggested that meditation, akin to sending your brain to the gym, can change the way the brain functions. In the study, Tibetan monks had more gamma wave activity, which is associated with perception and consciousness, than did novice meditators.

Richard Davidson, a neuroscientist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, and lead investigator in the study, said he shares concern about the “slippery slope” of involving religion in science. However, he helped set up the talk by the Dalai Lama because it could “encourage increased attention to these domains of inquiry,” which he thinks hold potential for improving health.

The Dalai Lama will not be wearing his “religious leader hat,” Davidson said, but rather his “public intellectual hat.” Like others who are excited to hear the Dalai Lama speak, Davidson thinks some of the backlash might be political. He noted that the many of the critics are of Chinese origin. The Dalai Lama fled Chinese soldiers in 1959 and has lived in India since then.

The angry scientists maintain their concern is not political, but professional. Rao said the society is “kidding itself” by suggesting the Dalai Lama “has insights about the mind because he meditates a lot,” he said. “If one can understand the neuroscience of meditation by meditating a lot, then one will understand the neuroscience of crying by crying a lot.”

Many scientists are somewhere in the middle on this debate. “I’m somewhat skeptical that it could be helpful or interesting,” said Joshua Berman, assistant professor of psychiatry at Columbia University. “I don’t think it would be terribly harmful either.” He added that he is not sure if inviting a religious leader will send the wrong message to the public.

Dani R. Smith, a researcher in the department of psychological and brain sciences at Johns Hopkins University, said a few people were “a bit surprised” to hear the Dalai Lama would appear. “I just thought it was a bit weird,” she said. “I just thought that’s one talk I might not attend. I could see the interest in wanting to have someone come and speak, but I don’t think the Dalai Lama would be the most qualified in this setting.”

Daniel Kahneman, a professor of psychology at Princeton University who has met the Dalai Lama, thinks his talk will be worthwhile because he presents a completely different view point, though that may be what some scientists are concerned about. “He doesn’t pretend to be a scientist, and no one will mistake him for one,” he said.

Some of the harshest critics have circulated a petition that chastises the society for blurring the lines between science and religion. Some of those scientists have already, or are considering withdrawing their own presentations. For the most part, though, scientists are taking a wait-and-see approach.

“Outraged? I’m not there yet,” Smith said. “If it happened again next year, maybe I’d get there.”

— David Epstein

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Comments

Dalai Lama’s

Dalai Lama is a holy and peacuful man. He has given permissions for many scientific experiments on his monks. If the talk will not be a religious and political one why not let him talk ? The whole world knows that Dalai Lama is not a science man. His speach can give inspiration to new thoughts about scientific projects.I found it offensive that some scientists are boycotting his talk.The world needs peace and good intention, not rejection.Just listen to Dalai Lama, and if he acts like a scientist or says things that can falsify public, then as scientists you can talk about the facts.Do you think that everyone who is talking on scientific meetings worth listening, or are they giving good messages to the lay person, or can they communicate with public? Dr.Inci Erkin- Turkey

Dr.Inci Erkin, at 9:06 am EDT on July 28, 2005

Why not?

Why not listen to what the Dalai Lama has to say? Surely it will be interesting, possibly intriguing, to consider what he has to say. At the very least, a welcome break during an arduous scientific conference.

Science relates to all facets of humanity and the world around us. Why not have a dialogue with those outside your scientific sphere? You might find a common ground that could lead to new understandings on both sides.

Tom McCool, at 9:50 am EDT on July 28, 2005

Dissing the Dalai Lama

Those “scientists” who are in disagreement of the Dali Lama speaking at the conference are suffering from “anomaly anxiety.”

L DeWees, at 11:04 am EDT on July 28, 2005

For the sake of science, why not? I thought science is supposed to be open minded. Perhaps we could learn from a different perspective, especially when the focused is on meditation.

Sam, at 11:30 am EDT on July 28, 2005

Dogmatism in science

The Dalai Lama represents a 2,500-year-old Buddhist tradition of rigorous, rational and empirical inquiry into the nature of the mind. To uncritically assume that Buddhism has nothing to contribute to the understanding of mental phenomena is closed-minded and unscientific. The Scientific Revolution that occurred 400 years ago rebelled against the dogmatism of religion. Now that same kind of prejudice is being expressed by a minority of neuroscientists who assume that they have the only access to truths about the mind and brain. Let them be challenged by the Dalai Lama!

B. Alan Wallace, Dr. at Santa Barbara Institute for Consciousness Studies, at 11:55 am EDT on July 28, 2005

Support the Dalai Lama at SFN

I am surprised and partially amused at the uproar over having the Dalai Lama speak at the annual meeting of the Society for Neuroscience. By far, most of the neuroscientists I have spoken to find his scheduled talk interesting and wouldn’t miss it. Personally, I have no fear of listening to other views, and as a neuroscientist would really like to understand the possible neural correlates of meditative experience or any other experience that makes claims about the nature of the mind and brain might be. The Society should be applauded for not attempting to insulate itself from other informed views, foreign though they be. I would not endorse the appearance of religious leaders speaking about religion at the meeting, but this is clearly a situation that goes well beyond that, as the Dalai Lama seeks to foster dialogue between Eastern philosophy and Western Science. I look forward to hearing him speak.

George R. Mangun, Professor and Director at Ctr. Mind and Brain, UC Davis, at 1:55 pm EDT on July 28, 2005

I recently attended the 16th Annual International Trauma Conference in Boston entitled,"Psychological Trauma:Attachment,Neuroscience and Body Experience". As is typical at most significant conferences, there were many scholarly presentations by recogined experts in their fields.Meditation was frequently mentioned as a technique that has implications for trauma recovery and brain health.I know mental heath professionals are seeking further information on this topic.What are all the neuroscientists doing research for? Why is money being given to them to support their research? Crazy me.I assumed it was ultimately about providing information about factors influencing brain health to medical doctors,mental health providers and the general public. Yes, I think these guys and gals are in IVORY TOWERS and are forgetting that the research they are doing should have implications beyond their office walls!

The Dali Lama is a meditation expert.Meditation seems to effect the brain. I for one,want to know more...............

Jan Frost, LCSW, at 3:35 pm EDT on July 28, 2005

Dalai Lama speech

One doesn’t know what one doesn’t know. The alarm bells should be comforting, because they mean certain scientists, if they bother to attend, will be confronting someone with a mental life they know nothing about. This could be broadening. In addition to the mind and body, he takes into account a third entity — the soul. Not doing so in research might be akin to understanding how a car engine works, but never using it to take you somewhere worthwhile.

Mike Lawrence, Trinity University, at 3:35 pm EDT on July 28, 2005

Might want to be careful here

“I would not endorse the appearance of religious leaders speaking about religion at the meeting ..”

Given this precedent, one wonders how the Catholic church’s recent comments about evolution and its effects on Catholic bio-scientists (yes, there are a few) might be handled. As religion? Science? Both? Neither?

R.A., at 4:35 pm EDT on July 28, 2005

Dissing the Dalai Lama

There is only one truth, but it can appear in different forms. I recommend that Neuroscientists who are against the attendance of the Dalai Lama should read “Science and the akashic Field” by Dr.Ervin Laszlo, one of the leading figures in Systems theory. It discusses a fascinating theory that when validated will eliminate the differences between science and religion — two aspects of the same truth.

Mike Mortier, at 4:29 am EDT on July 29, 2005

Meditation and Brain Strudture

It may be time for science to “discover” that the mind, indeed, is independent of the brain and can and does, through a mental discipline like meditation, actually alter the structure and functioning of the brain. Such disciplines are not the exclusive property of the Dalai lama nor of Buddhism nor of any thought system that utilizes the principles and practices of meditation, though His Holiness is a more than qualified representative of such practices. Everyone meditates on something. It’s a question of focus and intention as to the results. Science will surely catch up one day to the most profound secrets that lie well beyond the apparent and mutable, universe. What a day that will be!

Pushkara Sally Ashford, “Dissing the Dalai Lama” at HeartSpace Learning Center, at 8:04 am EDT on July 29, 2005

Dalai Lama’s track-record speaks for itself

What do they have to loose? The Dalai Lama has spent over 15 years focusing on the relationship between meditation and science. It seems to me that these critics are missing the point. If there is even a remote chance that they could gain an insight into the nature of the mind; they owe it to themselves and to science to investigate this possibility. The Dalai Lama may not be a scientist, but he is nonetheless and erudite scholar having spent his entire life focusing on levels of the mind that these scientist will never know. The Dalai Lama’s track-record speaks for itself. He has already been invited to speak at similar conferences and symposiums and has contributed enormously never over-stepping the boundaries of science. I think that it is safe to say that in the field of science the Dalai Lama has as many supporters as he does critics. If these critics could somehow humble themselves for moment, the way some of their contemporaries have done, they too might learn something. Wouldn’t that be scary?

Blair Boone, Artist and Teacher, at 9:26 am EDT on July 29, 2005

It’s a sad state of affairs when we Americans are so ignorant of international affairs that we don’t recognize this “protest” against the Dalai Lama for what it is. Far worse, we blithely swallow, regurgitate and discuss the suggestion that the someone “shouldn’t be allowed” to speak at a neuroscience conference, not having any clue what an enormously un-American concept we’ve just given the big ol’ thumbs-up to. There is a government incentive program for Chinese citizens living or traveling abroad who actively support their government’s position on several “hot” issues, including Tibet, Taiwan, Falun Gong, and the Dalai Lama. It is a simple matter of cash. The “protestors” will absolutely be compensated for their “outcry,” just as their compatriots here in Madison, WI are compensated for mailing home the names of our local Falun Gong members.

Sheila Shigley, at 11:10 am EDT on July 29, 2005

Science is an illusion of knowing

I am not surprised to find such ignorance in the world of neuroscience, and most other so-called sciences. If their scientific studies brought them to the realization of thier ignorance, it would have succeeded to its highest point.

Edward J. Abdo, Retired, at 12:26 pm EDT on July 29, 2005

if Scientist Meditated maybe they’d invent something

Maybe if Scientist Meditated they would increase their intuition & invent something Excellent for a change

I meditate daily & I have a increase of intuition & telepathy. I use it in my sales job & find it easier to predict sales.Thank You

Monica Vita, Manager at Retail, at 4:48 am EDT on August 1, 2005

Judging for Myself

Already fuming about the religious right’s opposition to even hearing opinions expressed that are different from their own, I now find myself incensed at the notion that 30,000 neuroscientists should not be afforded the opportunity to hear the Dalai Lama speak, as if we might all be brainwashed and recant our pragmatic beliefs in the scientific process. I’m fully qualified to evaluate his ideas and judge their merit — scientific or otherwise — for myself. Listening to him does not imply an explicit support for what he says, but rather expresses an intelligent desire to hear other viewpoints before constructing my own. Anyone who makes up his or her mind without considering all possibilities is an idiot, not a scientist.

Todd Weber, Assistant Professor of Biology at Rider University, at 5:37 pm EDT on August 11, 2005

“new thinking”

the dalai lama is a master of his philosophy. every fact in science one once (some still are) a philosophy. yes, they are completely different types and cover different grounds, but when we look at how we came to know the things we so ardently persue and apply to our lives, its fairly easy to see that they overlap in so many ways. i personaly see a huge advantage in listening and applying the advice given by the dalai lama to reserch in neuroscience regardless of the fact that certain people do not agree with his personal dogma, at the very least, its an oppoturnity to see another (and most likely very different) point of view on the mind.

jason svedin, adams state college, at 5:47 pm EDT on August 14, 2005

Critical Thinking

I freely admit that I don’t know much about the Dalai Lama, but I do know he’s not a scientist. I also question the blind faith people have in his politics, and his religion itself. People on here talk of the Buddhist religion as one of “empirical inquiry”, others claim that meditation changes the brain’s “structure”, and one woman mentions that she can use “telepathy” to predict her sales for the day! Personally, what one personally believes is not at issue – you can believe in reincarnation, tarot cards, and Jehovah and still be a legitimate, honest scientist. But what bothers me much more than the so-called “ignorance” that “the West’s” science community has towards “other ways of thinking,” is when people within said community cross the line between what they believe, and what they start representing as “rational scientific inquiry” with utter disregard for the scientific method. While the Dalai Lama may “have been” an engineer had he not turned into a religious superstar worthy of visits from Sharon Stone, he is neither an engineer, nor a scientist. If someone wants to hold a conference on the convergence of science and religion, I may shudder at the thought, but only then would his presence be appropriate.

Daniel Greeney, graduate of Beloit College, Beloit, WI, at 3:45 pm EDT on August 15, 2005

Science Cannot Cure Unhappiness, The Dalai Lama Has Found a Way

Whatever you want to call it: a religion, a mind trick or a philosophy, the final litmus test to the efficacy of whatever story one wishes to believe— whether it’s a relgious story, a scientific story (the most convincing to date but so was mythology 2,000 years ago) or an extraterrestrial story— is the taste in the final pudding. Are scientists leading happier lives than non-scientists? Science has hit a wall in discovering further truth in the macroscopic and microscopic universe due to the limits of getting there: the speed of light and measuring apparatus, respectively. Only consciousness, a very high form of it, will be able to penetrate further truths. How do we know the Dalai Lama is not the Galileo of the 21st Century?

David Freire, New York City, at 1:18 pm EDT on September 24, 2005

The Dalai Lama

Surprising though it might seem, buddhism does not try to place its insights upon “dogmas", “blind faith", and et cetera. It is a combination of intuitive self inquiery through meditation, and extensive phylosophical reasoning. Reincarnation is not a dogma, something which a buddhist “must” beleive but a phylosophical thesis.

Buddhism is very different from christianity. All of the critics of the decision, could at least try and get some understanding what buddhism is about...

For example, “The purpose of religion", by one of the reknowned buddhist leaders :

http://www.fpmt.org/teachings/ly/religion.asp

Daniel, B.A. student in biology at Hebrew university of jerusalem, at 7:02 am EDT on September 26, 2005

reincarnation does not a foe make

I personally have no blind faith in any man, nor do I have blind faith in Buddhism. No true buddhist would act otherwise. Buddhism incorporates aspects of faith that are not of the same character as what most of us in the West call ‘faith.’ Faith is considered a faulty notion to some scientific circles because it is associated with the relinquishment of the personal responsibility to investigate the object as validly identifiable. Scientists want only falsifiable claims. Buddhist faith never relinquishes this responsibility. They are constantly striving to validate. It has no less credibility than a scientist’s faith that finding a neutrino is possible. The challenge for science is find out how to inferentially valididate first person experience which is claimed to have effects.

The Dalai Lama is a title that is respectfully bestowed. Tenzin Gyatso, another reference to the same man, is also a moniker of respect. He has repeatedly stated that he does not claim to be the reincarnation of the previous Dalai Lama. Moreover, he has stated in the company of well respected Western scientists in public forums that if science were to find conclusively, or even convincingly, that reincarnation be not possible, then Buddhism would have to accept that into its core.

Yi Rao accuses the Dalai Lama of being biased towards an ontologically seperate mind and body, and that that conclusion somehow impeaches the Dalai Lama’s credibility. Even if the claim of bias were valid, or even the more wild claim that this bias is somehow an intrinsic requirement of the Dalai Lama’s temporal position, then it would equally valid to conclude that Rao’s having a predisposed bias towards mind and body being identicle similarly impeaches his credibility.

Jon Gorrono, Programmer at UC Davis, at 8:20 pm EDT on October 14, 2005

Oh, the ignorance!

Daniel Greeney begins by saying he doesn’t know much about the Dalai Lama, then proceeds to say he is not a scientist. What would qualify a person as a scientist? He also evidently does not know much about Buddhism. Once precept is that you should understand something, not just blindly believe it. Not all religions are the same. In an effort to better understand phenonom (sorry about my spelling), he has created a foundatin for scientists to study and hopefully more fully understand why so many do see a benefit from meditation. I am amazed that this connection has been missed in all this discussion.

bob amy, at 9:57 pm EDT on October 20, 2005

“unscientists”

Untill the early part of the twentieth century scientists mind were shaped and hardened by the newtonian view of absolute space and absolute time. When einstein came up with his revolutionary idea of space and time being two inseperable parts of the single space-time continuum, many scientists considered him out of his mind and a heretic and refused to accept that! Scientists are supposed to be open minded. That is the way ideas can be discussed and studied for validity, or else the world of ideas will simply rot with individual egos running in their own direction without any prospect of intersection and inspiration and hence breakthrough! Most of the people who are againsts this idea of inviting the Dalai Lama to deliver the opening speech are Chinese. I am 100 % sure that political consideration has gone into this opposition. It is then appropriate to label them ‘politically motivated unscientists’. Let the Dalai lama speak, listen to it with open mind, go to bed and think about it without considering him a splittist, i am sure there’s a lot for the modern scientists to learn from the age old mind science, propunded by a man who saw what reality is 2500 years ago.

Tenzin Choephel, Master, at 12:10 pm EDT on October 21, 2005

Open Minded?

The problem with banning the concept of sprituality from science, is that if sprituality is reality, sceince has banned the truth.

Robert Richardson, at 5:23 pm EDT on October 24, 2005

Dalai Lama’s talks

My experience has been that majority of the scientists are narrow minded. All you need to do to understand why most scientists spend their lifetimes spinning the wheels. They wear blinders and do not allow themselves or their graduate students to look beyond their pet theories. They get stuck on the notion of refuting their opponents theories and do everything ( spend millions of tax payer money) on proving themselves right!. Their ego is so overblown they are incapable of seeing anyone else’s theroies or ideas with an open mind. I always had arguments with the “scientist professors” that they are close minded and even when there were empirical results to prove that there was merit in their opponents’ theories and we need to look at them closely they thought I was a heretic. Having said that 90% of the scientists are close minded and know nothing about related fields. This is because they don’t want to know about the related fields. They are afraid that their past research will be thrown out into the winds. It is ironic that in university enevironment, sacred places for learining and discovering the truth the halls are filled with those who don’t really want to knwo the truth. They want to keep getting funds from NIH and other organizations and are willing to work on whatever is fashionable to be funded. So they end up being an ignorant group of people. Having said this about the majority of the scientists there are always a handful of those who stand out and are true seekers of knowledge int he quest of truth and understanding the nature and workings of the universe which is the essence of the mind training in Buddhist and other meditative philosophies. O’ Scientists , slay your ignorance , Open your ears, eyes and heart and your mind ( if you have any usable piece left in you ) and you may learn something and use your life to actually produce some work of worthy of the tax payers money.

Delan, an Ex-cognitive scientist, at 5:18 pm EST on November 13, 2005

not really religion

To me the definition of an honest scientist is someone who gains knowledge by experience and experiment. I believe that is exactly what the Dali Lama does.

When I was younger and Pentecostal Christian by default (my parents were). I rebelled against religion because it didn’t make sense to me and it wasn’t scientifically proven. I began to look down on Christianity and all religions. To me this seemed like fantasy, it might as well be lord of the rings. With much interest in science and anything based on facts, I came across the teachings of the dharma. The first thing that I liked about it after reading, researching and listening to Buddhist radio, was it’s open mindedness.

There are many forms of Buddhist philosophy. I remember hearing the Dali Lama speaking about science. The open mindedness toward science was astounding. If I remember correctly he was saying if the Buddhist doctrine is proven wrong by science then it is wrong and we must take that into account. How many religions would do that or agree with that.

Many people will say it’s not a religion and that’s just a name given to it by people who are ignorant of its true nature.The point I am trying to make is that the purest form of Buddhism (Strip out any of the symbolism and tradition.) is neuroscience.

Go to a church then go to a teaching of the dharma I believe you will see a huge difference in the quest for truth over the regurgitation of theology.

Cedrick Osborn, Artist, at 8:30 pm EST on December 22, 2005

Funny

Reminds me of the poor guy Galileo.

Belinda LaFleur, BA communications/MA Education, at 6:20 am EDT on July 29, 2006

Whether our great scientists are Catholic, Buddist, Methodist or ??makes absolutely no difference as it pertains to meditations and humankind. I have been meditating for over 50 years and recently had an accident classified as severe blunt head trauma and which resulted in surgery. Did it affect my ability to meditate and what else may have occurred as a result of this accident is a matter which has caused many people to sit back in awe and listen. I have always (75 years old)been able to see and hear things but those things have been spiritual rather than material. Today, my meditative senses are far keener than they have ever been and some doctors think I am a side show while others take a keen interest in what has been a 3-year trip back to some sort of normalcy for me. I know what has happened to my brain, I’m still working on finding the connection to the soul.

Marv Miller, at 2:55 pm EST on February 7, 2007

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Dissing the Dalai Lama

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