News, Views and Careers for All of Higher Education
Aug. 15, 2005
When sociologists gathered Sunday to talk about the state of women in science, there was complete agreement on a few things: Women face continued bias, colleges aren’t meeting their obligations, and Lawrence H. Summers is clueless (or at least he was when he made his now notorious comments in January).
But the scholars on a panel at the annual meeting of the American Sociological Association offered a range of ideas on how to study the challenges facing women in science and on the most important steps for colleges to take. Audience members, mixing their research and personal experiences, linked the topic of women and science to a broader range of issues in academe, including rising standards for tenure and changing definitions of institutional success.
The session was organized in response to Summers’s comments, which angered many women nationwide — and clearly infuriated many sociologists.
Cecilia L. Ridgeway, a professor of sociology at Stanford University, said it was important to challenge the view (which Summers appeared to endorse) that discrimination against women is gone because relatively few men today would admit to not wanting to hire a woman. She discussed research that she and others have done on “implicit biases in social relations,” and how those biases are likely to play out for women in science.
Gender neutrality is difficult, she said, because all empirical research on the subject has shown that “you can’t deal with a person without first picturing them as a man or a woman.”
So our first instincts about someone place them in a gender category, she said. The impact of this categorization is greatest in areas — like science — in which people have expectations that the best ideas or work may come from men, Ridgeway said. These “unconscious expectations” then become self-fulfilling. And the result, in her view, is a “home team advantage” for men when it comes to seeking positions in academic science.
Ridgeway said that women in science need the equivalent of what California wineries did some years ago to challenge French vineyards. The American upstarts arranged for blind tastings, stunning the French when the California wines emerged on top. Since academic job candidates can’t be evaluated in a similarly blind way, she said, more accountability is needed, so it can be certain that searches are focused on the right issues.
Gail Simmons, dean of science and technology at the College of Staten Island, said that the Summers debate pointed to the need to consider “the fundamental structure” of higher education. She said that universities grew out of a monastic tradition in Europe and while they have evolved, they were designed as all-male enclaves in which success had to be determined early and in proscribed ways.
Bonnie Thornton Dill, chair of women’s studies at the University of Maryland at College Park, criticized not only Summers, but also all of those who have talked about the issue of women in science without spending any time talking about differences among women in science. Noting the stereotypes about the abilities of black people, Dill said that Summers’s comments, when added to those existing biases, created significant obstacles for black women.
“We cannot use this general category of ‘women in science,’” Dill said. “There is no generic woman. Studying generic women is studing elite white women.”
Dill noted that more black women are taking science courses as undergraduates, but they are not pursuing academic careers, “creating a growing gap between the professoriate and the people they teach.”
Jerry A. Jacobs, a professor of sociology at the University of Pennsylvania, sparked considerable discussion when he related the issue of women in science to the excessive workloads faced by many scientists starting their careers. He noted that one of the reasons Summers offered for the gender gap in science was that men are more likely than are women to be willing to work 80-hour weeks. This “professional devotion” argument is off in two ways, Jacobs said. It overstates how much most academics work and it presumes that whatever work levels are demanded must be appropriate.
Jacobs said that both men and women need to challenge assumptions about work hours. “You don’t need to work all of the time,” Jacobs said. He said that if colleges focused more on the value of work, and less on the hours, they would end up with equally brilliant, but much happier, faculty members.
Colleges, he said, need to consider a range of “family friendly” policies, and to take time seriously all of the time, making sure — for example — that meetings don’t take place unless they need to, and then are run efficiently.
Audience members generally agreed with all of his suggestions. Several said it was important to focus on changing assumptions about work hours so that the only path to success for women not be to become “honorary men.” But others questioned whether the kinds of changes Jacobs and others want are realistic.
One audience member noted that colleges these days are trying to raise their stature by attracting more research grants and they are raising the bar for tenure — adding pressure on young faculty members, not limiting it. Another audience member said that while she agreed with all of the suggestions, she was “troubled” that all of the talk about helping mothers could create a sense that “women’s problem in science is motherhood.” This faculty member, who identified herself as a new mother, said it was important that the discussion keep the emphasis on colleges’ responsibilities.
Jacobs said that he was hopeful that colleges would change over time — in part out of self-interest when they realize that gender equity and more reasonable work expectations will help them attract talent. But Jacobs also noted the need for more progress. He was the only man on the panel and most of the audience was female. “We need more men” to be listening, Jacobs said.
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IMHO, when women perform at the equal level of men, then and only then will they be equal. Look at all of the statistics of men injured in was and industry. That’s not equal.
Louis Calabro, Man at Justice for Men, at 9:05 am EDT on August 15, 2005
Bart S., Is everyone as obsessed with Mr. Churchill as you are ?
I read your post a few times, and I still have no idea what Mr. Churchill has to do with the topic.
Larry, at 9:49 am EDT on August 15, 2005
You are an unhappy, salaried, and non-academic attorney/M.A. in economics who appears to enjoy arguing with 99.9% of academia.
If all you seek is conflict — go to the NYTimes chat-board for Paul Krugman, they love your kind there.
Have a nice day.
Bart S., at 11:20 am EDT on August 15, 2005
Bart, Your answer was not quite responsive. I don’t really understand why you are telling me that nobody cares what I think, either, as I asked a simple question: What does Ward Churchill have to do with Lawrence H. Summers ? Once I understand your position, I might argue with it, but at the moment you don’t seem able to articulate it beyond telling me that I am a bad person (which seems ironic, because I can assure you that I am not Mr. Churchill).
Perhaps you can also explain to me why my comments have made you so angry.
Larry, at 11:59 am EDT on August 15, 2005
You apparently are involved with 1st Amendment cases on public campuses (a.k.a., “full employment for lawyers act"). Your endless ability to argue apparently helps pay your living expeneses. Great.
I will not take the bait of someone so clueless, he argue endlessly with non-lawyers, without the facts at hand (e.g., Larry King).
The aforementioned endless legal bills over posters, handbills, etc. could be the greatest case made for chartering public higher ed. Once schools are chartered — your kind will have to work much harder. How unfortunate.
And BTW: no one said, you and your kind don’t have the right to go to a public park and get on a stoop and spew whatever. Just don’t be surprised if people start leaving.
Have a nice day — unless you’ve made other plans, like making others miserable.
Bart S., at 1:30 pm EDT on August 15, 2005
In all the heat of these discussions, one thing has been overlooked: Summer simply suggested that there might be biological/sociological reasons why less women choose go into science, and that perhaps research needs to be done in the area. It seems to me that that is a valid scientific question, and the solution to the controversy is to take a value-neutral approach to the issue and study it.
But the tenor of the debate, and even of the articles about the debate, is emotional — and pre-judgemental. If indeed this web magazine, and its readers, believe in enlighted thought, readers and magazine should insist that the question be objectively studied. If, on the other hand, the magazine and the readers have pre-judged the facts of the matter, then we are not talking about enlightened and free academic ideas, but rather about a new dark ages of thought.
I cannot understand how anyone would oppose the careful study along Summers’ lines. At least in a supposedly free, enlightened, academic environment.
DMS
D. M. Scott, at 2:55 pm EDT on August 15, 2005
Dr. Scott, I agree with you in part. (Though I still don’t know what Ward Churchill has to do with it.) As a scientific matter, the reasons why girls don’t like science, or at least don’t seem to do well enough to get tenured positions should be studied. However, the potential exists to use any findings as a means to justify all sorts of discrimination. Indeed, once we abandon the fiction that women and men are equal, I think that departments will simply begin concluding that it just isn’t worth the trouble to accommodate women, and at some point whatever legal protections of women do exist can justifiable be eliminate because it would be quite inefficient to teach people who can’t be taught. If there were no findings, then nothing would change, likewise, if there are no discernable biological differences then nothing would change.
So, we need to be aware of this looming possibility, and perhaps agree, in advance, as to what the remedies should be for a biological difference. (Not that this would actually happen.)
There probably could be legal remedies the differences in the way that women are raised. Most of them might be unconstitutional, and some might be quite offensive. But, if women and men are biologically identical, then most of the sociological differences could be eliminated by simply taking baby girls away from their family and educated them in camps where they would be trained to be tenure-track scientists. If that is too harsh for you, consider the constitutional problems with even minor state interference in the raising of children, and the amount of protection we seem to want to give the family unit and “personal” interactions: they are darn near sacred. Likewise, although no state has attempted to do it yet, many speculate that it would also be unconstitutional for a state to require that pregnant women who have not-yet obtained tenure get an abortion, in order that they may make a greater contribution to the march of science.
Larry, at 3:44 pm EDT on August 15, 2005
Mr Summers’ comments and models are out of date. If he had paid attention to any scholarship in this field, that would have been clear, but he did not have the courtesy to do any more than shoot from his hip—-right in the foot.
Women make up nearly 50% of the PhD students in my field (molecular cell biology), and have for about 20 years. And they do just fine at that level at top grad schools. Therefore innate ability in the sciences is there.
But their success rate drops radically as they continue up the chain. Of my cohort (PhD in the 80s), almost half in the class were women, but well under half of my equivalent cohort on the faculty are female—maybe 10-20%.
In my own career, I have watched male colleagues be given more in resources and promotions, although I have routinely out-performed them in grants and publications. I have been alternately told I didn’t need promotion/recognition because I was not married, to (when my status changed) I didn’t need it because I was.
I can bend your ear with the anti female comments by search committees and both overt and subtle sexism. I have seen women dismissed as candidates because of their “personalities", or possible interest in a family or children. I am tired of repeating these, and in any event, they are anecdotal and of limited statistical value. Alas, with so few women “making it", that can always be said.
Current academic structure is based on a model of men in the ’50s with wives at home, and does not suit many women or many men. I have spoken to Trustees who comment that in their non-academic industry, they could not afford the Jurrassic views of gender that they see in teh academics nominally under their purview. Odd thing to liberal academe that business is more forward thinking. But it’s no accident that biotech has strong representation of women executives—and it’s not that they are avoiding 80-hour weeks.
But of course, if women aren’t doing well, it’s because they aren’t as good as the men.
Bah.
Science in this country is flaming out because we are flushing talent. The quality of students (male and female) is declining, as they see few rewards commensurate with the effort. And this base will not be easily rebuilt.
Nice one, Larry.
ProfF, at 4:36 am EDT on August 16, 2005
ProfF, Although I generally agree with you, there is a little more to it.
Most of our knowledge of the world is based on some stereotype or other. “Science”, as a discipline attempts to demarcate which stereotypes (usually not involving people) are reliable enough to use. American constitutional law (and various civil rights statutes) attempt to exclude some stereotypes of government or business decision-making because they have become somewhat politically unpopular. But still, my decision to order German beer and pizza at a Greek restaurant is based on stereotypes of what I think will be good food based, almost entirely on the ethnicity of the brewer and chef. It may very well be that there are great British pizza-chefs, and great Saudi brewers, but I just wasn’t going to take that chance. I don’t think that too many of you are willing to do that, either.
Summers’ mistake was employing stereotypes that have fallen into disfavor. As you state (and I agree) there are a large number of female PhDs in the sciences. Specific instance of discrimination (such as invoking “marriage” as an excuse for promotion decisions) are, unlike off-the-cuff remarks about women, legally actionable, but only when things get really bad do people take advantage of their legal rights. By then it is usually too late.
As to the invocation of the term “personality” as a way to discriminate against people, I don’t have too much sympathy because I have had those terms used against me in the past, and it is pretty much a proxy for “I don’t like the person” for any reason. (Of course, if you could show that this was really covering up some actual discrimination based on sex, I would agree with you.)
Larry, at 9:31 am EDT on August 16, 2005
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What of ABOR?
” .. there was complete agreement on a few things: [insert group] face continued bias, colleges aren’t meeting their obligations, and [insert name] is clueless ..”
My, my, my .. what if the words non-Democrat Ivy Leaguers and Mr. Ward Churchill and AAUP were inserted? Wouldn’t that be a discussion?
Bart S., Graduate Teaching Assistant at Big Sports University, at 6:33 am EDT on August 15, 2005