Comments on Rate Your Students

• pathetic
• Posted by MJS on January 16, 2006 at 8:57am EST

• If a professor has to stoop this low, then I say let's get rid of tenure. Lots of profs have crazy ideas that they publish, so if students can't do the same, then there is no justice. Get rid of tenure, then we'll see justice.

• Pathetic?
• Posted by Shannon Keys on January 16, 2006 at 9:17am EST

• If most parents knew how poorly their sons and daughters behaved, and how poorly they treated their professors, they'd offer up a multitude of apologies for us who are virtual caretakers and babysitters of a generation's worth of spoiled, entitled, EVERYBODY GETS A TROPHY brats.

• YES, PATHETIC
• Posted by MJS on January 16, 2006 at 9:42am EST

• Shannon, if you want better students, maybe you should teach at a better school? Maybe you have poor interpersonal skills? Maybe it's you? Not the students?

• Venting may not comply with law
• Posted by Jolie on January 16, 2006 at 10:29am EST

• The Family Education Rights and Privacy Act prohibits release of confidential student education records. Eeven without a name if the student's information is "easily traceable" it may be "personally identifiable" and release of that information by the school (i.e. professor/teacher) may not comply with federal law.

• Unconstitutional Uses of FERPA
• Posted by John K. Wilson on January 16, 2006 at 10:42am EST

• I get very tired of people who use FERPA as an excuse to silence professors. FERPA refers to the educational records of students only--not to how they act in class or anywhere else. FERPA should only restrict the administration in releasing personal information. It can only apply to professors to the extent that the administration provides educational records to faculty (i.e. giving them ID numbers, or other information. All other information, including even the grade that a professor gives in a class, should legally be available (even if it may be unethical to do so under some circumstances).

• Internet ratings of students and teachers
• Posted by barbara i on January 16, 2006 at 10:44am EST

• Social networking and reputation ranking via internet is still new to many people. With anonymous systems, one bad rating can be neutralized by going a teacher or anyone, by posting an opposite rating.

  I think the Seigenthaler/Wikipedia story neglected (execept for one post on slashdot.com) to ask why Seigenthaler didn't just change the Wiki entry to reflect what he saw as truth.

  The teacher blog seems like a place to blow off steam. What I would point out is how many people, teachers and otherwise, look back on a teacher whom they hated/feared when they were taking the class who they came to revere as one of their best teachers.

  For profs, I would say, check out your ratings. Neutralize any "outliers" and consider what is going on if all your ratings are poor ones.

  Students: you are paying for the class so you need to reflect on how it might be best to follow the teacher's lead instead of assuming you know best in every instance.

  For everyone: the learning environment is not just a one to one, student to teacher nexus. It is a multivariate space where the teacher has more control than any one student, but where interactions between students can exert strong effects on the overall classroom climate.

  And as my dad used to say "don't believe everything you read."

• A Culture of Whining
• Posted by John Martin on January 16, 2006 at 10:56am EST

• I imagine that the same quality of professors will be drawn to this site as to many of the student sites--that is to say, slightly immature, angst-ridden, and self-exonerating individuals who need anonymity to express their dissatisfaction. If even half the effort that was spent "venting" was actually devoted to classroom dialogue, participation in the learning process, and realistic self-critique, there would be no need for such after-the-fact "outlets."

  The notion that students are somehow disempowered in the classroom is a recent, reactionary, and largely political claim. In fact, students have a great deal of power, via their own choices, in determining the dynamics of their classrooms, their own performance in those classes, and the quality of the instruction they receive. If they're driven to hysterical ranting about their instructors, then they've probably made some bad choices along the way that they need to take responsibility for. Perhaps, speaking up in class would be a start...

  And the idea that professors are somehow being victimized by unfair student evaluations ignores the way that evaluations are actually used by departments and by students. Departments take into account the cumulative results of official evaluations done by students at the school, never from internet sites. And students tend to get their own information from one another, through conversations and recommendations. The more intelligent and mature among both sets can see past the meaningless rants and glowing reports of "hotness." The nastier and more personal the comments from a particular student, the less likely they are to be taken seriously by anyone or utilized in any meaningful way. Any professor who can't shake off the occasional dissatisfaction of an immature evaluator is in the wrong profession. Of course, if they receive such comments on a regular basis, perhaps there's something in their teaching that needs attention...

• Students are CUSTOMERS
• Posted by Vincent on January 16, 2006 at 11:09am EST

• Students are customers -- and therefore, it is in their interest to rate professors (those who provide a service).

  In what other industry do you see merchants rating their customers? Probably not many. Because it doesn't matter if your customers are bad ones -- as long as they pay. And students do. They pay dearly on tuition that pays professors' salaries. So professors should suck it up and do their job.

  If you want better students, increase your admissions standards or move to a better school. But DON'T admit a student and then complain they are a bad customer.

• Students are NOT customers
• Posted by Shannon Keys on January 16, 2006 at 11:23am EST

• This notion of students as customers needs clarification. Students pay for the opportunity to take a class, not to succeed, not to learn, not to magically receive knowledge, but the CHANCE to.

  If you come to my fast food restaurant and pay for a double quarter pounder with cheese and fries, it's not my fault if I serve it and you choose to take the whole thing and throw it in the trash. It's not my fault if you're too stoned to figure out whether to eat the meat or the packaging. It's not my fault if leave the restaurant without taking it so that it spoils.

  That's on you, my young friend.

• The Problem With These Sites
• Posted by MKB on January 16, 2006 at 11:25am EST

• The problem with a site like ratemyprofessor.com is that it is an optional thing, so you have two types of students that will actually enter data on the site. The first group is a small group that use the site on a regular basis, and rate all of their professors regardless. The second group are those students with an axe to grind. As a technology teaching assistant (and a former high school teacher), I know the sites and have been in boh ratemyteacher and now ratemyprofessor.

  In ratemyteacher, I had a couple of entries from students who had axes to grind, a couple of really good and constructive comments (which actually led me to start doing teacher evaluations with my students even though it wasn't required - just to get feedback like that), and then some from students who were involved in extra-curricular activities with me and wrote glowing things.

  In ratemyprofessor, until this past semester there was a single entry that made me look like a really poor instructor. Now my teaching evaluations tend to be above average and I do get some good constructive criticism (I also tend to ask additional open-ended questions in our online system to get some very specific feedback on the course and my teaching), but that wasn't reflected in ratemyprofessor until the end of this Fall semester. Prior to the past few weeks, according to ratemyprofessor, I was a bad teacher.

  Having said all of that, I agree with the person who commented about the silliness of all of these sites and wondered what ever happened to good old fashion human interaction.

• FERPA and age
• Posted by Larry on January 16, 2006 at 11:55am EST

• Mr. Wilson’s sentiments are well-taken. Too many people are using FERPA as an excuse to not discuss some of the uglier aspects of higher education, such as the fact that faculty are complicit in allowing students to submit mediocre work, play favorites, and often don’t care about their undergraduates. Therefore, Jolie, if you are going to cite to FERPA, please provide the exact sections of the statute (or the regulations adopted pursuant to it) that you are referring to. Far too many times have I seen people waive FERPA around like a flag without knowing what it actually says, and how it has been construed.

  Whether a directive from a college to a professor not to disclose information about a student (because the college may, at some point, place its funding at risk) is unconstitutional or not is rather complex issue, which, at some point we may have to address. (I don’t think the issue is entirely, clear, at the moment.)

  Shannon, You didn’t really address Vincent’s claim. Instead, you seem to claim that because you are older, your comments have more validity. Perhaps you can explain what, if not customers, students are. Usually I am inclined to agree with your conclusion, but because you were unable to articulate a basis for it, I am now thinking that Vincent was correct.

• part of the problem
• Posted by huntly on January 16, 2006 at 11:55am EST

• Oh, Vincent. You're part of the problem, not the solution. You see, students are not my customer, nor my employer--they're simply the beneficiary of my expertise. They pay for the privilege of being in my classroom, not for the privilege of getting what they want. Believe me, there are thousands of students lined up behind them to pay for the same privilege. They've come looking for an education (no one forced them to), which they need in order to become a professional (like me), and I'm the one who can provide it. It's in their best interest to learn what they can, be appreciative, and make good use of the opportunity they've been given (or not). If they don't, then they'll fail, but I'll still have my job. Why? Because I've paid my dues. I sat on the other side of the desk and did my work, and earned my grades and got my degree. Then I went on to do it for several more years, learned my discipline thoroughly, contributed to my field, and got the job that I wanted. No one "owed" it to me, I didn't buy it, and it didn't come as easily as the free public education that I'd been given for 12 years before that. It was something that had to be earned through my own efforts and the efforts of those professors who gave me their time and attention. Not all of them do that, not all of them have to, but most of them do--in addition to doing their scholarly work, their service to the university, their teaching & mentoring, their raising of families, etc.--because they want to, not because they have to. Students can whine and complain about grades or politics or wanting to be entertained or "hotness" or whatnot...but really, what do they contributed beyond the cost of being present that earns them the right to respect? The answer is: plenty--for those students who care enough to try. As for the rest, why should their whining evaluations matter?

• How (Not) to Use ratemyprofessors.com
• Posted by Dissertating Fool on January 16, 2006 at 11:59am EST

• I read this line a comment above:

  "Departments take into account the cumulative results of official evaluations done by students at the school, never from internet sites."

  Sadly, I know of at least one case when this proved untrue. I am a student representative to a campuswide committee of professors and administrators that sets graduate program policy and participates in regular external reviews of the programs on campus. The external reviewers (chosen as experienced professors in their fields) of one school (a dean-led equivalent to a college) did indeed use ratemyprofessors.com as the sole criterion for evaluating the instructional abilities of the unit's professors, with no comment on the very unscientific nature of the site. And I was the only person on this senior-level campuswide committee with control over graduate academic affairs to point it out as a concern in the review process.

  I like the comments above about reverting to actual interpersonal communication. Call RMP out for what it is; I joke about it with my students when in-class evaluations draw near, I draw administrators' attention to its potential dangers, etc.

  A final comment: RMP can have dangerous effects. In disciplines with low enrollments, one or two potential students who look up a potential prof and decide not to register for a course because of the ratings can kill a class. And the ratings there can accrue an undue legitimacy that can prejudice students -- before a professor even opens her first class or right before students fill out evals.

• Posted by Ralfy on January 16, 2006 at 12:17pm EST

• To MJS, if you get rid of tenure, then professors may (and should) charge higher rates. Also, I believe criticism of teachers are based primarily on grades. In which case, let a third party (e.g., board or national exams) evaluate students.

  To Larry, I hope parents can teach their children manners. That way, they don't have to insult teachers on-line, often anonymously.

  To Mr. Koenemund, I strongly agree with you. Perhaps some of the causes of this problem include the possibility that many students should not be going to universities (which are supposed to focus on research) but should go to technical or vocational schools. Also, they're probably too young: work and recommendations from their employers when they apply for further studies looks more logical.

  To Vincent, you are right: most students should be transferred from universities to training schools. Core subjects should be moved to high school or junior college. Universities should focus on research and should be fully funded by the state. Athletic programs and other extracurricular activity should not be included: if they want to, individuals can join sports leagues, gyms, or hobby centers outside universities. Only students who have the ability to research and are interested in such as a full-time occupation should be admitted.

  To MKB, you are likely getting better ratings because you are giving more feedback. That's more work for teachers with the same pay, and may also mean higher tuition because it will involve smaller classes. My point is that if a professor is paid highly, given a small number of students, and sufficient facilities, then it is likely he will do very well. On the other hand, if he gives grades that aren't very high...

• The Degradation of Higher Education
• Posted by Chuck Dawkins , Professor at Cal State on January 16, 2006 at 12:37pm EST

• My, my, my - don't we have some whining, thin-skinned profs abroad in our land.

  So some students make nasty, rude, personal or revealing comments about their teachers and the teacher don't like it. Awwwww. What a shame.

  I suspect that many of those profs who snivel and whine the most are the very same profs who never miss a chance to use the comfy confines of their classrooms to blast Bush, the US military leadership, corporate managers, or any conservative with almost the same language that they hereby deplore when students use it against them.

  Students are supposed to have freedom of speech but many professors in the modern PC classroom routinely place limits on student opinions. There is a voluminous documentation of that reality.

  This is all about the students hitting back, the chickens coming home to roost, etc.

  If thin-skinned profs don't like what students are saying about them...that's too bad. Tough. Let those same profs ask themselves if they have ever done anything to anger or arouse students in that regard.

  Please be honest, if possible.

• Posted by Larry on January 16, 2006 at 12:40pm EST

• I see this phenomenon as only temporary. Eventually students and teachers and administrators will get their collective angst vetted on the internet, and maybe then they will get back to work. Indeed, if these board had been around when I was an undergrad, I probably would have complained about professors that slept with students (and, even worse, gave them good grades) about professors that graded purely on favoritism (if they didn’t sleep with the students) and about professors that talked a good game about requiring their students to do work, but, in the end, just accepted the same old recycled crap from all the students, anyway. For all the talk about the need for students to learn “manners” there seems to be little talk about the need for professors to treat students with respect, and not sleep with them. The professors, for their part, would have complained about me not sleeping with them, and demanding that they actually fulfill their promises to read stuff I wrote. Then we would get back to business.

  Huntly, Assuming that you were not being sarcastic, I seriously doubt that there are thousands of students that would pay money to hear you talk. At best, there are thousands of students that would pay to get a degree from your institution, but, let’s face it, even if you are “famous” in your field, most undergrads don’t really know who you are. (Indeed, the professors that undergrads seem to know about often water-down their courses for their undergrads, in an effort to be “fun.”) More likely, however, your institution is keenly aware of just how many students it must admit with less-than-exemplary test scores and high school records to stay afloat, and, like most schools, justifies their admission because of their “motivation” or some other unverifiable characteristic.

• Posted by Jolie on January 16, 2006 at 1:05pm EST

• Larry /and/ John K. Wilson,

  To help you get started in learning more about FERPA (the law not what SHOULD be the law, Mr. Wilson), I offer this portion of information with citation for your review:

  <<< FERPA protects the privacy interests of parents in their children's "education records," and generally prohibits the disclosure of education records, or personally identifiable information from education records, without the prior written consent of the parent or eligible student. When a student reaches the age of 18 or attends an institution of postsecondary education, the student is considered an "eligible student," and all of the rights afforded by FERPA transfer from the parents to the student. 34 CFR § 99.3 "Eligible student."

  The term "education records" is defined as all records, files, documents and other materials which:

  contain information directly related to a student; and are maintained by the educational agency or institution or by a person acting for such agency or institution.

  20 U.S.C. § 1232g(a)(4)(A); 34 CFR § 99.3 "Education records." >>>

  *** Much more information available on the U.S. Department of Education Family Policy Compliance Office (FPCO) website including this from the U.S. DOE FPCO:

  <<< We note that FERPA does not prevent an educational agency or institution from posting the grades of students without written consent when it is not done in a personally identifiable manner. Thus, while FERPA precludes a school from posting grades by social security numbers, student ID numbers, or by names because these types of information are personally identifiable or easily traceable to the students, nothing in FERPA would preclude a school from assigning individual numbers to students for the purpose of posting grades as long as those numbers are known only to the student and the school officials who assigned them. >>>

  *** and this:

  <<< FERPA is a Federal law that applies to educational agencies and institutions that receive funding under a program administered by the U. S. Department of Education. The statute is found at 20 U.S.C. § 1232g and the Department's regulations are found at 34 CFR Part 99.>>>

  *** and regarding federal funds available to schools:

  <<< The Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 ("FERPA") provides that no federal funds will be made available under any applicable program to an educational agency or institution that releases personally identifiable information, other than directory information, contained in a student's education records to anyone but certain enumerated federal, state, and local officials and institutions, unless otherwise authorized by the student's parent. See 20 U.S.C. § 1232g(b)(1). "Education records" means those records that contain information directly related to a student and are maintained by an educational agency or institution or by a person acting for such agency or institution. Id. § 1232g(a)(4)(A). >>>

  and JUST IN CASE someone needs this:

  <<< Complaints of Alleged Violations:

  Complaints of alleged violations may be addressed to:

  Family Policy Compliance Office
  US Department of Education
  400 Maryland Avenue, SW
  Washington, DC 20202-5920 >>>

  Been There, Done That.

  Jolie

• FERPA and "maintained"
• Posted by Larry on January 16, 2006 at 1:51pm EST

• Jolie, Most of us work with this stuff all the time. Your paste was from a website, and not to the actual statutes or regulations (though you provide citations to them), so it is difficult to see what is your interpretation, what is the Dept. of Education’s interpretation, and what is the text of the relevant provisions. Indeed, in one case, a letter from the Department of Education didn’t resolve the issue, and, contrary to the Department of Education’s interpretation, in Owasso Independent School Dist. No. I-011 v. Falvo, 534 U.S. 426, 427 (2002), the Supreme Court held that unless the student papers are “maintained” by the institution, they are not within the scope of FERPA. See 20 USC § 1232g(a)(4)(A) (“…are maintained by an educational agency or institution…”). (Why and how the court should def to administrative agencies is a different issue, which I don’t think anyone here cares about.)

  The importance that the Supreme Court attached to the words “maintained” probably resolved a number of the constitutional issues, since the only class of records that a school could, relying on the federal-funds-axe contained in FERPA declare to be undisclosable are various forms of personal information that either the school generated or the student was forced to disclose.

  So, the point is, that unless a gripe is not in the form of a record that is “maintained” your FERPA point appears problematic.

  Finally, providing an address of a government agency doesn’t resolve any issues.

• Posted by Bobbie J.Allen on January 16, 2006 at 1:51pm EST

• I feel like the doctor who witnessed the guilt-ridden actions of Lady Macbeth after she had instigated the murder of Duncan, the King; "I think, but I dare not speak."

  Bobbie J.Allen

• Ratings
• Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on January 16, 2006 at 2:03pm EST

• I see the rate my professor website, although I have not yet entered any comments (though I might soon) as a useful resource when I choose classes.

  Note in other service industries the prevalence of employee service rating cards, turned into the hotel, restaurant or other service. They give the customer a chance to tell the company how they were assisted. I think rate my professors could serve the same purpose. There will be people, who, like the service cards, will write nonsense or inaccuracies or undeserved praise. A smart administration will take these things into account.

  I dropped a class last semester in which I did not have a poor grade because the teacher was simply so extreme and irrational in her off topic views that I couldn't bear listening to her any longer. I suspect many students have similar experiances.

  Huntly, your post reeks of a liberal entitlement theory, in which one is rewarded for hard work or long effort rather than providing value. In market economies (which higher educational institutions seem to believe and to a certain extent behave as though they are not part of), people are compensated not on the basis of how hard they work or claim to work, but on how well they provide value to customers (ie how much the students are educated).

• Posted by jolie on January 16, 2006 at 3:59pm EST

• Larry wrote: Jolie, Most of us work with this stuff all the time.

  *** Then I am puzzled as to your request for my help in gatheirng the citations. Apparently, you already have that information.

  Larry wrote: Your paste was from a website, and not to the actual statutes or regulations (though you provide citations to them) ...

  *** C'mon Larry, go look it up if you are that interested ... remember you "work with this stuff all the time".

  Larry wrote:
  So, the point is, that unless a gripe is not in the form of a record that is “maintained” your FERPA point appears problematic.

  *** I don't believe that I asserted that all disclosures would fall under FERPA.

  Larry wrote:

  Finally, providing an address of a government agency doesn’t resolve any issues.

  *** For those individuals who have grounds to file a FERPA complaint, the address is the first important step to resolution ... and accountability.

  FYI,

  Jolie.

• Freedom of Speech
• Posted by Vincent on January 16, 2006 at 4:58pm EST

• One other item I just noticed is a critical difference between RateMyProfessor and RateMyStudent -- The Professor or so he calls himself had disabled the opportunity for the public to comment on each of the entries.

  At least RateMyProfessor has several mechanisms and even discussion boards in place where a professor (or even fellow student) can dispute or comment on the experience that was posted.

• Posted by Larry on January 16, 2006 at 4:59pm EST

• Jolie, You took a position which was contrary to my understanding of the law. Now, it might be that you are correct, or that my interpretation missed something. Citing to particular sources would allow me to see if I was correct. Indeed, most legal arguments are usually subject to rigorous scrutiny by people who often don’t want to agree it.

• A Few Comments
• Posted by K.F. on January 16, 2006 at 5:58pm EST

• Having encountered students (as a fellow student, H.S. teacher, and now Grad student) who consider taxes or tuition paid tickets to exceptional grades for mediocre work, I understand how frustrating that can be. The way that I've usually dealt with "student customers" is explaining to them that the school/university is a sort of intellectual gymnasium. You pay for membership, but you have to show up and do the work to see the results you want.

  For the professor who assumes that liberal bias is what causes RMP comments. In my case, you would be wrong. I have commented on RMP. And the axe I had to grind was with ae extremely reactionary professor who made it his business to degrade female students and women in general in his classes. I have seen no "liberal" equivalent to the lack of professionalism I encountered with this man. Not even close. And, while he has a right to be a misogynist, I felt compelled to inform possible future students that choosing his class meant choosing 14 weeks of pointed harrassment. Horowitz may claim there's a liberal bias in universities, but his thinking doesn't make it so. Frankly, every professor I've encountered who complained of liberal bias used that complaint as a jumping-off point to display his own conservative bias. Sort of a "they started it" justification for absolutely horrible behavior. It has never, in my experience, been about just teaching one's subject to the best of one's ability for them.

  As for RMP itself, I consider it a useful tool. Just like other student evaluations/gossip I can get, the information on RMP has to be taken with a grain of salt. As my mother often said, one must consider the source. Sometimes the bile can be easily seen in the comments, and sometimes they are well-considered. A reasonably intelligent reader can determine which is which.

  As for the Rate My Students website, as long as the professors or teachers posting on that site are using it simply for anonymous venting, I can't see the harm. Teachers, just like people, get frustrated from time to time. So, saying "this kid in my Wednesday evening class is behaving badly, and it's making me a little nuts" to people who don't know the kid, don't even know where the kid goes to school, seems like the most harmless venting available. It beats all hell out of saying the same to a fellow professor in your department, who may know the kid and deal with him/her on a regular basis.

• One more thing
• Posted by K.F. on January 16, 2006 at 5:58pm EST

• In my institutions, the chili pepper has been awarded most often to extremely elderly professors everybody likes. The chili pepper was placed on the page as a joke, and people understand that. It's rarely about the professor's actual physical appearance.

• Another View
• Posted by Jeff , Justanotherprof at CSU on January 16, 2006 at 6:03pm EST

• Actually, I see Ratemystudents.com as doing a huge disservice to our profession. The reason are too numerous to list but while entertaining to read, it takes the attack on the student to a new, public level which was previously kept to ourselves. I predict this site will soon be litigated right out of business. This website, as well as these threads do reveal just how myopic some educators are.

  Regarding this thread, it cracks me up when Professors refuse to acknowledge that students are not customers. Folks like this are stuck in their own little universe. We had the same argument in healthcare years ago. As one of many examples; in the ambulance business, we had a captive audience, right? The mantra was: “We don’t have customers, we have patients and they have no choice.” In five years, things rapidly changed and the contracts ultimately went to the business with the best customer service. Same story in all sectors of healthcare which is closely likened to Academia.

  This begs the question: Who then, if not students, are the ONLY consumers of the education we provide?

  Do you think they do not have choice in choosing your class? Maybe you have a lock on a required course and are the only one to teach it. In that case, good luck although a surly, non customer oriented attitude dictates change is in your future.
  Cost/benefit analysis will put you out of a job, dear Professor. When your product is no longer worth the cost, consumers will buy a competing product. If they cannot do so because of your lock, complaints will rise to the point that your Dean will put you someplace you do the least harm so he/she doesn't have to deal with it anymore. You can be consumer oriented and teach a difficult class, I do it every week in Biol.

  Additionally, in my opinion, which may be right or wrong, Academia is in for a huge change in the near future. Why pay a PhD. or MBA $110k + with benefits to teach two hundred students a semester. A University could do the same thing for one, two, three thousand students (all over the world) a semester for the cost of one PhD. who is recorded once to teach over and over again. That could easily be done with a computer connection, a camera and live online facilitators for questions.

  Here is the scenario (short version).
  Prof. PhD. teaches a course lecture, once, which is recorded with numerous possible questions asked and answered.
  This is recorded to a CD, hard drive or whatever.
  Then, rebroadcast (just like on demand movies) to the student.
  For testing, student takes web-based test which is Computerized Adaptive Testing (you might want to look this up. This is based upon a student’s individual knowledge of the material and test length varies according to # right vs # wrong.)
  Student passes or fails test and ultimately, course.
  Nest semester- Same course but no Prof needed, all recorded…

  Recorded course lectures are RE-USED for each new section until lecture information is no longer valid. The cycle is then repeated again only for the cost of one PhD. They might get ten years out of that one recording. Only ongoing cost is that of paying for equipment and question facilitators who can be paid much, much less than the one or several PhD’s replaced.

  With the rapidly rising costs of tuition, we rapidly approach the point when the masses can no longer afford to pay tuition. Budget cuts dictate stretching every dollar and with payrolls being the largest expenditure, this will occur. Supply and demand dictates it to occur.

  I see lots of professors out of a job in this scenario. The education job market is already very tight and will only get worse. Surely, there will always be those who will pay for live lectures but it will be unbelievably expensive. Academia dollars are becoming less and less available and, mark my words, this idea will come into play...It already is being phased in with Hybrid and Online courses. We can see it in the rising usage of Adjuncts. It won't happen overnight but it will happen. I expect to see widespread use within five years. If you think customer service doesn’t matter, you are soon in for a shock. Robotics and computers are coming to a school near you and the only thing you have over them is your people skills…

  The Moral of the story: Rating your students publicly is not going to convince mom and dad of Jane/John to support live education over recorded if they see Professors as surely, overpaid educators who hate their students and make fun of them in public. You reap what you sow.

• Students are not (yet) customers
• Posted by MaryLou on January 16, 2006 at 7:40pm EST

• Kevin,
  Students, like you, see themleves as customers, but it is professors, you claim, who suffer from a misplaced sense of entitlement? That's laughable. Your very claim to the role of privelaged, responsibility-less customer is a grab for entitlement.

  First, students are not considered customers by anyone other than students, and politicians with axes to grind. We have words for students that distinguish their rights, responsibilities and privelages from those of customers. One word is "pupil"; of course another word is "student". As was asked eaerlier in this thread, if students aren't customers, what are they? They're, ur, students. Show me three examples from your, or any other credible college or univeristy, where an applicant to the institution is referred to as a "customer" or is described as having privelages of customers? Students matriculuate as students, not as customers. That's the contract, that's the deal; don't try to change the contract when you get a bad grade. That's not to say faculty are off the hook. Higher education teaching is a travesty in this country and should be considered as a big part of why student scholarship is widely scorned.

  Second, Kevin, education is not generally conceived of as a service, has never been widely described as such, and has no hallmarks of a service. Traditionally, education has been associated with the civic and religious spheres not the mercantile or market. Does your priest. rabbi, shaman, minister, etc. provide YOU a service? There are other types of relationships besides customer-server. Teacher-student is one of these.

  Third, what you deem entitlement may merely be the rights and privelages associated with being a professional (I'm not sure about this because you don't give much of an explanation). Professors are professionals, like attorneys, airline pilots and doctors. In their roles they use their knowledge and professional judgement, and are largely autonomous, even if it their "clients" (that's still not an adequate synonym for student) do not see this in their best interest. Few, if any, service providers are considered to be members of a "profession". The relationships, roles and rights and responsibilities of teachers and students have few similarities with those of customer and service provider.

  Application of the customer-service provider methaphor to the relationship between teacher and student is simply not apt. I surmise it reflects a narrow vision shaped by utter immersion in the rhetoric of "the market" and suggests, to me anyways, not a little misplaced entitlement.

• Posted by Larry on January 16, 2006 at 7:42pm EST

• Jeff, how do you figure that the site will be “litigated out of business.” I can’t really see who is being injured. If you had articulated a theory under which someone could recover, I would probably have shown you why it isn’t applicable, or the site has an absolute defense. But, you did not. You just made a conclusory statement. So, in your next post, you might explain how they can be “litigated out of business.”

  In my experience, moms and dads choose schools based on: 1) how much their kids whine; 2) whether they were hard partiers at the school and want their kids to be as well; and 3) whether they think that a degree from that school will give their baby a ticket to riches. There are a few parents that care about intellectual rigor, but they generally don’t care what people say on the web about students, and their kids usually are smart enough not to attract this kind of ire.

• Posted by Another southern prof on January 16, 2006 at 7:42pm EST

• Jeff: Do you really believe students will gladly choose that route, or are you just all frickin' into "the future" a la some terrible '50s sci-fi movie?

  The greatest complaints in evals are often about profs who "don't give us any help," etc., and who are "boring." Why on Earth do you think recorded lectures will be less "boring" and that computers and robots and dead or absentee profs on recorded video will help people? I read endless complaints about current profs doing online courses already.

  And what is the "product" you're selling? If students know the product is a joke, on the whole, their parents will send them elsewhere. Even my mediocre students know which collges pander too much and which don't. I was tougher this semester, and required more work of my students, and still received my highest evaluations ever. (Still, all I received RMP were complaints, ones posted after final grades were turned in. RMP is full of it.)

• Varied
• Posted by The Professor on January 16, 2006 at 7:42pm EST

• What a lively discussion. I think it's terrific that so many people feel strongly about the ideas raised in Mr. Epstein's excellent article.

  The truth of the matter is that Rate Your Students is simply going to be a product of the posts I receive.

  I don't write them. I don't solicit their content beyond giving very general ideas. (For example, last week I wondered if folks might send in some ideas for students and fauculty getting off to a good start of the semester.)

  Some of the replies on this page are awfully uninformed. I'd love to be one of those PhDs making $110k. Where is that? I know it happens, but I teach a small college in the south, and after almost 20 years, 4 books, teaching awards, grants, fellowships, etc. I teach 8 classes a year and one class each summer for $41k.

  As for the gentleman who claims I've "disabled" the comments section of my site. It's an option, I'll grant you, but I didn't select it because I've read that so much marketing and spam mail comes that way that it's often more trouble than it's worth. I post my mailing address, and then post people's comments when they're good. I've posted a lot of comments from folks who disagree with what RYS is trying to do. If you'd like to post, please feel free to send me something. Although I must admit that over the past week I've been getting about 3000 hits a day, and it has taken some work to stay ahead of the mail.

  Finally, I love teaching. I get sterling evaluations every semester. My RMP rating is 4.6 with more than 25 ratings. I work hard and appreciate the great job I have.

  But I'm sick of the anonymous and unmonitored attacks that go on routinely at RMP, and RYS is a partial response to that. What I found in the first week, however, is that professors needed to blow off some steam sometimes. Maybe they're thin skinned. Maybe not. Maybe they're tired of Johnny Student and Janie Student, and maybe they should get out of the profession. Or maybe they're just like any other person who works in the world - some parts of every job simply suck. Students who don't give a **** make the job harder than it needs to be. Students who don't care that you are trying to help, taking time to explain things, taking time to consider their work carefully, taking time to meet them outside of classroom hours to offer advice, reading lists, study guides, etc. When students think that since somebody (them, their parents, or the State) has paid their tuition, that they deserve a grade, that might result in the build up of frustration. And a little anonymous venting might give that professor a clearer head when he/she goes in the classroom that next day. That's a good thing.

  That's it. The mail that comes in is 95% positive, lots of "Thanks for doing this." So, as long as it's a gas, and as long as I think I'm helping, I'll continue.

  My best wishes,
  The Professor

• Rate your _____
• Posted by Dr. F. Gump , Muckraking Provost at Upper Midwest Mental Institute on January 16, 2006 at 9:23pm EST

• Now would be the time to establish a Rate your Physician web site.

  Idiots who refuse to follow the physicians' advice (read your textbooks, discuss in class, work cooperatively in small groups) could write in to complain about what bad customer service they received.

  Wah! It's boring to eat my vegetables, not smoke, not drink to excess, have only one or two sex partners; and besides all that potential boredom if one did listen to the doctor, I'm dying/flunking life.

  Now could my "co-customers" mom & dad, state and fed. gov't., scholarship providers, pay the damn bill? I'm outa meal credits for the campus pub.

• Silly?
• Posted by B.J. on January 16, 2006 at 11:16pm EST

• " .. If you think customer service doesn’t matter, you are soon in for a shock. .."

  I can't speak for soft-side academia .. but if some snot-nosed punk said "I paid, gimme a good grade" -- I'd tell him to buy his degree from a diploma mill and get out of my sight.

  Then I'd have a good laugh, imaging him (1) trying to get an interview with his lousy degree and if he did, (2) trying to get through the interview alive.

• hard science professors are gullible, too
• Posted by Larry on January 17, 2006 at 4:25am EST

• BJ, I don’t want to break it to you, but even in “hard sciences” students know how to manipulate professors into giving them good grades. They might have more social skills than to outright demand such a grade, but there are many pre-meds (and now medical students and doctors out there) that have grades they don’t deserve because they 1) cheated; 2) or co-opted a professor.

  Gump, There are "rate your physician" websites out there. Some of them show very disturbing patterns of behavior amongst doctors. Many doctors, for some reason think that patients (who usually have less education than them) don't deserve to have their questioned answers (because they are stupid) and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

• Market Reality
• Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on January 17, 2006 at 4:25am EST

• In response to Mary Lou, "professionals" provide services just as restaurant workers do; they are more socially respected, highly paid, and highly trained, but they provide a service none the less.

  Second, anything can be analysed in a market context. I'm sure many have heard part of the reason for the sucess of the Protestant Reformation in Europe was the lower demands (finacially in terms of tithes, expected contributions and ratio of Churches to people supporeted as well as in terms of fewer distracting holy day restrictions). Likewise, many people pick their religious affiliation based on market forces - churches with a good sense of community and security and church services yet without a high demand for donations do well for attendance. Same with quality of church experiances (think mega-church performances, younger preachers, bands, AV centers, educational programs etc).

  Believing that education cannot be regarded as a market is just misguided. The non-profit sector has many advantages over those who are more interested in responding to customer demands, not least alumni and foundation donations, endowments, and federal and state grants that for-profit institutions are not eligible for, along with well established brands and customer loyalty via legacies. This has forstalled what otherwise would have been a very fast transition. Now the question stands as to whether the higher ed establishment will adjust, or, in a repeat of the automotive industry, be undermined from the bottom up steadily by a more market aware competitor.

• Hello, Larry!
• Posted by B.J. on January 17, 2006 at 8:22am EST

• " .. BJ, I don’t want to break it to you, but even in “hard sciences” students know how to manipulate professors into giving them good grades. .."

  Why, hello, Larry .. dang, I must be slipping. I have to agree with you, somewhat. At Big Sports University and the Ivy colleges, I've seen pre-med's (and pre-law's) plead, whine, beg, and throw temper-tantrums about grades. Actually, kind of disturbing and sickening -- thank God, I'm very healthy and don't need MD care.

  But I wasn't speaking for those faculty nimrods -- just moi. I'm not as cynical as you seem to be, nor as imperious and snide as Huntly. One or two devastingly difficult questions usually does the winnowing-out job (e.g., Microsoft's "why are manhole covers round?").

  Have a nice day, little buddy.

• Posted by Ralfy on January 17, 2006 at 3:28pm EST

• I think one reason why these problems take place is that many students are not interested in research (or even reading and writing) and several professors are interested more in research (or at least working with graduate students). And this occurs because universities are forced to come up with income-generating activities to stay afloat, including lowering standards to increase enrollment, offering remediation to retain enrollment, setting up athletic programs to generate more income and to keep students happy, and so on.

  Some solutions to problem include transfering some of these things outside the campus. Thus, universities can form athletic leagues but players don't have to university students. The same goes for those who attend business school, drama school, and so on. Students who need remediation or want to attend core classes may take extension classes in high school.

• Response to Kevin
• Posted by MaryLou on January 18, 2006 at 10:57am EST

• Kevin,
  You write: "In response to Mary Lou, “professionals” provide services just as restaurant workers do; they are more socially respected, highly paid, and highly trained, but they provide a service none the less."

  I'm afraid "none the less" (sic) is not a compelling argument. Simply making a counter claim and then adding "none the less" isn't going to convince anyone. In case you didn't realize it, three of the paragraphs in my first post were organized around different reasons why not to think of professors as service providers.

  You also write: " Second, anything can be analysed in a market context." Apparently, you don't realize it, but that's the problem with your theory. A theory with that much scope loses a lot in power. It's not specific enough. That's probably why you can't muster an argument why education SHOULD by analyzed using market nomenclature. If you think only in terms of markets, everything is a commodity, I get it. And, it's then only a small step to everyone is either a customer or server. If you think of everything in terms of a hammer, you see lots of nails. But that inevitablity is not a REASON to think that way.

  I see no evidence that you grasp that there are other kinds of relationships and other kinds of institutions than those you mindlessly apply: customer-server and markets. I explained WHY customer-server categories were not apt, you failed to explain why they are.

  Make an argument next time, and I will pay more attention. As it now stands, I just think you are applying some basic economics theory, rationalized by consumerist values to critique an institution you don't really understand. I hope you prove me wrong.

• Posted by Brian Ogilvie on January 18, 2006 at 10:57am EST

• Kevin--the fact that anything can be analyzed in terms of markets does not mean that everything should be analyzed in those terms. To take the Reformation, for instance: your sketch of an analysis does not explain why parts of Germany and Scandinavia opted for Lutheranism, other parts of Germany and most of Italy, Spain, and France remained Catholic, and Reformed Protestantism (aka Calvinism) established itself in parts of Switzerland, France, and the Netherlands. How does the market metaphor--and it is a metaphor, religions are not things that are bought and sold--help explain the geography of the Reformation? Were French and Italian burghers less rational than Germans and Swedes?

  To get back to the issue at hand: students do not pay professors to provide a service for them. They (or their parents, or the state) pay a college or university to provide them with an education (a service, if you will). The college or university has determined a curriculum and engaged faculty to teach it. At many colleges and universities, conducting research and community service or outreach is also part of faculty responsibility; at most, contributing to running the institution is also part of it. A market analysis must, at the least, take into account that the student's agreement is not with an individual professor but with the institution, and that the institution has different agreements with professors than it does with students. It's not like a lawyer: a client can fire his or her lawyer, a patient can fire his or her doctor (though here, insurance companies are deeply implicated); but a student cannot fire his or her professor.

  If you take the notion of education seriously, the role of the student in a college is closer to that of a recruit in the military than that of a customer in a store. In both cases, the institution aims to reshape the person. The purpose of that reshaping is radically different, but ideally, the transformation is equally profound.

• Response and Clarification
• Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on January 18, 2006 at 10:53pm EST

• Mary Lou, a doctor provides a service (medical care). A lawyer provides a service (there a several varieties of legal services). People do not support these professions out of a like for them, but pay for medical treatment and advice in the case of doctors, and legal assistance and advice in the case of lawyers. The concept that their services, because they emanate from individuals a comparatively high degree of training, are therefore not subject to the same market forces that influence everything else lacks substantiation. The term “professional” does not carry any exemption from market reality or a substantively different relationship with the population. I’m not sure what “rights” you associate with being granted by the reception of a degree or certification into a professional field. These appear to be more conventions of behavior than constitutional or human rights.

  If you do not believe that the legal profession is largely market driven, you could look at any of the studies into legal representation selection and retention by individuals and organizations. They do indeed respond to market forces, including supply and demand (look at Memphis and their 1980s lawyer glut for a prime example) and accountability (lawyers and legal aids are dismissed all the time; many people have changed lawyers in mid-trial when they feel their lawyer or lawyers are not performing in that manner they desire – that is an issue of accountability).

  Likewise, after the reduction of market restrictions medical services responded to the same supply and demand forces and movement of patients expanded – contrary to extensive predictions that this would not occur.

  Doctors, like lawyers, are not uncommonly fired in mid-treatment. While one cannot say that by paying a doctor they are, say, entitled to any prescription drug they wish, they do have a reasonable expectation of treatment. If the treatment does not meet their expectations, they commonly change doctors, consult other doctors (ie second opinion), file complaints to medical ethics boards and groups, or sue (often frivolously, but not uncommonly with cause). A doctor who fails to provide the expect aid in health (that is the aid expected by medical ethics) will likely swiftly find her or his self out of a medical practice.

  Students, like the clients of lawyers and doctors, if you favor this comparison, are still customers. They pay for a service and receive it. When lawyers and doctors fail to provide that service to the standards of their customers, they are dismissed.

  I no longer consider myself affiliated with any religion, and I am currently an agnostic leaning heavily towards atheism. However, I would state categorically that members of religious congregations pay in time and money in exchange for an emotional assurance of spiritual results, such as a pleasant afterlife, spiritual enlightenment, or divine favor of some variety. They receive emotional comfort about important doubts such as their fate after death and the meaning and purpose of life in exchange for their actions, whether faith, money, time, free service etc. I gave several examples reinforcing that view, such as the prevalence of megachurches, which place comparatively low demands for donations which providing a very confident affirmation of the chuch’s answers to the doubts presented, along with a range of other services, such as marriage counseling. These services account for a good part of church membership.

  When at home, I attend Catholic Mass with my family. I notice each year the poster of adults attending a program called RCIA (rite of Christian initiation for adults) in which they become baptized members of the Catholic Church. Without exception, their brief, self written statements have focused on community belonging. I have yet to see, in the 12 years since I was able to read their statements, so much as a single one dealing with theological positions or church philosophy.

  Dr. Ogilvie, I originally compared the student’s relationship to that of a person at a hotel or restaurant – the comparisons to professional fields emanated from making the point that they are not immune from market forces in response to Mary Lou’s comments. I think the original comparison is more appropriate. However, some doctors are paid by their hospital, and even if “fired” by the patient selecting another doctor, will likewise be paid – not dissimilar to a student dropping a class. Likewise, in corporate law, some lawyers are retained by a firm, and paid a fixed salary regardless of if clients ask for another lawyer from the firm. Removing a senior partener from a law firm can be about as difficult as firing a tenured professor. I think the comparison has reasonable merit.

  With regards to the Protestant Reformation, there are a variety of economic and non-economic factors that effected that decision considerably. However, with regards to national differences, economic factors played a considerable role. France retained a high percentage of the tithes it paid in country, where as the Germans and Danes retained a lower percentage. Also, as Luther and company disliked pilgrimages, and the French retained a very lucrative influx of pilgrims to places like Notre Dame de Toulouse, and St. Foy de Conques as well as the still lucrative passing pilgrims going to the most lucrative site of all, Santiago de Compostela in Northwest Spain. The immense influx of gold from these pilgrimages certainly helped keep the French and Spanish from jumping to Lutheranism. Also, it should be noted that military force by those with other ideas (Charles V in Germany and a succession of kings in France was necessary to keep the protestant reformation from breaking out in force there as well, generally led by nobility with economic interests partially in mind – many complained openly of shipping gold to Rome). It should be noted that even with the greater unity in France and Spain, the inquisition in Spain and 2 small scale civil wars in France were necessary to keep the Catholics in power, compromised in France by the Edict of Nantes, which allowed the Hougonauts, largely nobility and middling classes, to worship with a degree of freedom.

  This is a very brief explanation given off the head of a Freshman undergraduate. I can expand on any of these points if necessary, but I don’t think it will be needed. You can also ask you colleges in your school’s history department if you like – they may be able to help.

  Lastly, let me respond to the comparison to the military. Military member are legally employees of the government and treated as such. Students are not legally employees of their schools, and such a case would be difficult to make with that state of academia today. I’ll leave it at that for now, but I can expand if you would like.

• Posted by Ralfy on January 19, 2006 at 4:39am EST

• The problem, Kevin, is that such evaluation measures are not done professionally, and there are major differences between students and customers in general. For starters, students are graded by teachers. Second, some students may evaluate teachers based on "work load", i.e. the amount of "work" needed in light of the grade received. Third, evaluation may be based on trivial points. Thus, a teacher who dresses in a manner that students find agreeable or "radical," who is seen as "cute" and "cool" because he is a "great" speaker and makes "us laugh and think" at the same time, who is "intelligent" (that is, students think he is intelligent based on what students know), who is a "great grader," who "is always there for us" even if he has to answer questions that students can readily answer by just reading their guidelines or simply paying attention in class, who will not make many "impossible demands" (e.g., will not give work that will cut into athletic practice or extracurricular activities), and so on may likely get a higher rating. True, there are a few very helpful evaluations, but most appear to be based on factors involving popularity, students' view of education as part spectacle, part amusement park, and a situation where one merely has to sit down and let "fun" teachers do their "magic."

  On top of all these, many evaluations are done anonymously, and for a public to see. Who will be able to tell what is authentic and what isn't, and whether the evaluator is reliable?

  Finally, recall the attitude of some students regarding education. For example, I am told that if asked whether they would report a cheater, several would not because that would be "snitching." When asked why they have to take a particular subject or why it is important, some "customers" might not be able to explain why. Several dislike reading, writing, and even math. In their web logs, some complain about cutting one class to study for another, stating how happy they are that classes are suspended so that they can go with friends to a mall, and so on.

  Notice that I write "some" and "several" because I'm sure someone will say that they or many of their students are not like that. But what do students say about education, study habits, and so on in freshman surveys and other studies? What do functional literacy assessments say about their ability to comprehend? How about their cultural literacy, e.g., their grasp of world history, geography, and so forth? Can they be relied upon to evaluate their own teachers' grasp of the subject matter that they themselves are attempting to learn?

• professional ?
• Posted by Larry on January 19, 2006 at 10:26am EST

• Ralfy, Kevin does have an interesting point. While these “evaluations” are not done “professional” most evaluations are only vaguely objective.

  For instance, grades are often based on how well a student gets along with a professor, and how well they can con the professor. (E.g. extra credit, whining, delayed tests, more time for people with alleged “disabilities” and incompletes.)

  People fire their lawyers (and doctors, for that matter) all the time for reasons that are irrational or nonsensical. Sometimes the client doesn’t understand the overall plan of advocacy (or treatment). Sometimes the client likes another professional. Sometimes the client doesn’t understand just how bad his situation is, and the professional is doing the best that he can do under the circumstances. Sometimes the professional costs too much, and rather than waste money on treatments or legal research the client would rather go to Hawaii, even if this means going to jail for 2 more years or dying 1 year earlier.

  Most people would say that these things are only vaguely “rational” whatever that means. But it is a manner by which people make decisions every day. So, to claim that only certain evaluations are worth discussing, and certain ones are unprofessional is simply to impose your view of how you would act upon others, and to declare that everyone elses’ ideas are not worth listening to.

• Ratings
• Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on January 19, 2006 at 10:57am EST

• No, ratings are not always professional. It is the comments, as much as the numerical rating, that is important. It has been my experiance that well-liked professors obtain "hot" ratings even if not physically attractive (as several faculty members well into their 60s or even 70s have recieved the vaunted chili pepper) and professors who are widely disliked rarely recieve it.

  The comments can tell you part of what students look at, provided you realize that many observations are made because of their attitude. Comments about things like weight ussually come up more in the case of professors who are disliked (the famous "fat and stupid" correlation).

  Hotel and restaurant evaluations aren't professional or always reasonable either, but they are widely used, with the strong encouragement of the hotel or restaurant itself. Educational institutions could learn from that example if they wished.

  Incidentally, I saw many "tough but fair" comments online when I looked - not all difficult professors are considered bad - but there is a fine line between being tough and being unreasonable, especially considering the other commmitments some students have.

• Posted by Another southern prof on January 19, 2006 at 2:04pm EST

• Kevin: It might depend on where you are. From what I've seen where I teach, in some cases the pepper is a joke, but in most cases I've come across it is absolutely correlated with physical attractiveness.

  Why I have a problem with RMP is that I've never seen a correlation between the student evalations I've received (both from the official evals students in my classes as a collective, and ones I've given myself at mid-term). Right now, mine are mostly negative, which leads me to suspect that those going to RMP represent a distinct subculture. Or they are just ticked about not getting the grade they wanted.

  In any case, most schools already ask for anonymous evaluations. Why the hell do they need RMP? Do restaurant accept unsolicited feedback via the Internet? From a ratemywaiter/waitress or whatever? No.

• Response
• Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on January 19, 2006 at 6:35pm EST

• Restaurants often invite and even pay services like Zogby's to evaluate their services. It has been noted that the evaluations are most often filled out by people with an ax to grind, but that makes sense. The only professor I have rated online so far was one that I felt compelled to warn others about. That makes a high rating all the more rare and valuable - note that there are still, if you university is anything like mine, plenty of people with all ranges of scores, not just low and medium (eminating from the angry and apathetic respectively).

  These comments just give an extra layer of information.

  You might also consider the wording of you evaluations. One of mine asked if I like the book choice and if I thought grading was fair but never gave any space besides "additional comments" to talk about class discussions and such.

• Posted by Another southern prof , Hello? on January 20, 2006 at 4:35am EST

• Kevin says: Restaurants often invite and even pay services like Zogby’s to evaluate their services.

  Me: This is called a "solicited evalution."

• Clear
• Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on January 20, 2006 at 12:52pm EST

• I think I made clear that their are both requested and uninvited evaluations carried out - like univerisities in some ways, but unlike them in others, as has been covered already.

• Posted by Another southern prof on January 20, 2006 at 1:00pm EST

• I've never heard of unsolicited restaurant evaluations, ever, and I doubt you have the first clue as to what you're talking about here And I have written evals form students along with statistical ones, so I know what students are saying without having to go online. You sound like you're wanting schools to adopt RMP, when there is absolutely no good reason for them to do so. It's an irresponsible service, frankly, and they'd do best to steer clear of it.

• Posted by Philip on January 20, 2006 at 2:18pm EST

• A lot (much? most? who knows?) of what's in RMP is entirely bogus.

  Go there yourself. Rate one of your own classes. Throw in a few typos or misspellings to make your comments look like they come from a real student. Hint: try "u" instead of "you." Give yourself a chili pepper. Got a colleague you don't like? Rate HIS class.

  RMP is like graffitti in the restroom: it's neither reliable nor useful, but it IS fun!

• Wake up, fashion victims
• Posted by KRA on January 24, 2006 at 2:25am EST

• Nothing is more tedious than adolescents copping attitude. We profs know you are scared witless, and we are not interested in your so-called sex lives, your fashion sense, your religious dogmas, or your opinions of our human foibles. We want you to sit down, shut up, listen, read, and otherwise act like interested adults. If you want to be entertained, drop out and watch TV. We are working overtime with half-time pay trying to find one glimmer of logic in your addled thinking. Why is it that the student on chemo, the student who just got out of rehab, or the student who is past 40 and just returning to college always seems to get that paper in on time, while the whiny Paris Hiltons and soccer boys want to websurf and sleep their way through the semester, then try and blackmail their way into a grade?

  In short, GROW UP. Drop out and come back after you complete a year of community service or five years in the corporate world. We're tired of dumbing down the university.

• We are the future
• Posted by Brian , Student at A university up north on January 24, 2006 at 2:25am EST

• I hope that all of you professors out there that remember that we are the future. Treat us the way you want to be treated. There are many of us out there that show up to class and work hard. Just because there are those out there that do nothing, that does not mean we are all like that. Some of us actually care and work hard to learn and accomplish.

  That is quite classy making fun or our slang or use of the language; I forgot that we were in a formal environment and that you have never done anything similar in your youth…

  If you receive many bad ratings then maybe there is a reason, maybe you need to quit being egotistical and change. Just because you have PhD after your name does not mean that you are God or know everything, you too are still a student. I am sure there is not a day that goes by that you do not learn something new.

  Further more, I am sure that if the internet had been around when you were in college and there was a similar site you would have used it. I do not recall your generation being the best. Quit acting like we are such a horrible generation, your generation has much to explain… hell look at the guy running the country.

  A lot of us pay to learn, we expect you to share your knowledge with us. If we do not get what we are paying for, expect us to complain. If you bought a new car and it broke after 500 miles would you complain…? I think so. If we don’t feel that we are learning then we have the right to let others know. And don’t say that school administered reviews will be fine, they don’t always work. I know of a professor that has received many bad reviews, students have gone to administration (including me), yet nothing is done. We might as well have the option of warning off other students.

  Remember, we are the future… we will be running the world soon enough. If you think we are not customers or that we don’t matter… leave the profession now and there may still be some salvation for what may be to come in the future. Teach the students that want to learn, you future is in our hands.

  Thanks

• RMP, RYS, and ranting
• Posted by Ruth , Returning student at Calif community college on January 24, 2006 at 6:20am EST

• I'm a 50-year-old community college junior (which doesn't make sense, but I've been taking a whole lot of classes without getting all my transfer stuff out of the way). I'm also the RMP admin for my school. Yes, I believe the ratings on RMP ARE skewed to the negative because the motivation to complain is almost always stronger than the motivation to applaud. However, I still find it to be a useful resource when it comes to planning my courses. I"m not looking for easy A's, but I'm also not looking for teachers who expect 20 hours of course work a week for one online class (been there, done that, reported said teacher to the Dean of the department so I'll be repeating the class...). I need to find out if a teacher assigns huge amounts of homework or reading, if s/he is willing to work with students in case a 'life emergency' pops up.

  On a side note, as an older student who was required to do really intense stuff like, oh, SPELL CORRECTLY back in the dark days of elementary school, I am completely flabbergasted by the lack of skills - BASIC SKILLS - my fellow students exhibit daily. I'm thoroughly disgusted by the students who interrupt lecture to ask, "Do we need to know this for the test?" (makes me wanna b*tchslap them on the instructor's behalf, not to mention how this kind of thing drags my college education down to the level of ... oh, hell, it's so frustrating I'm sitting here sputtering instead of being able to type coherently!! So, yeah, as far as I'm concerned the professors have every right in the world to (anonymously) complain about their students. The anonymity of the 'Net gives us all the opportunity to rant we could possibly want, and if it takes an occasional rant for people to be able to get back to the real world and get through their day without going postal, then I'm all for it.

  Sorry for the semi-incoherence here, but, sad to say, it was a lot more coherent than most of the ratings I review every day. ;)

• Posted by Jeff Snyder on January 25, 2006 at 1:50pm EST

• Last night I made the mistake of looking at the comments about me on rmp.

  A couple of observations:
  One very hostile post mentioned a plaque in my office that I took down and put away at least 5 years ago...yet the post was dated 3 months ago.

  Another 2 (one calling me an IDIOT) referenced a description of fibre optics I made in a (junior level) class in which I haven't covered that specific subject in about 3 years. They both quoted the same statement I made about fibre optics and how I make stuff up and how my comment was idiotic; yet my comment was correct and if they had looked in the text, would have seen that it was an accurate description. These 2 comments were also as recent as 5-6 months ago even though I haven't covered this in years.

  There were more examples of this...including one comment by a High School student who I allowed to sit in on a class. He wrote that I was opinionated and closed-minded...all from one visit. Of course, I'm going to have opinions and I do challenge students' beliefs, but more importantly, the student obviously has been influenced by, and has followed the tone of the other posts.

  So my points:
  Students that haven't taken a class, or even been in school for years, but have a gripe, can constantly slander you for years.

  There is no verification that the posts come from students who have taken the class, or even go to the college (pissed at a prof? Have 20 of your friends post scalding comments), or even are more than 6 years old (look at the writing).

  I wish that I could sue RMP for slander. There should at least be a public disclaimer that the posts may not even have been made by the prof's students who have recently taken the class.

  My class evals are pretty good, so I can only assume that I had the audacity to give a C, D, or F to a few cowards who just want to get revenge.

  In the meantime...I'm going to have all of my friends and family post that I'm hot and the best prof ever, just to show how misleading the whole thing is (I'm not really hot).

• Opinions
• Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on January 25, 2006 at 3:22pm EST

• A bad professor will be remembered for a good while... it doesn't suprise me that a students would discover this site and post about something from years back.

  If you explained something and multiple students are under the impression you explained it wrong, you should look at the clarity of your explanations, rather than denigriating them as ignorant or mean spirited.

  A high school student should be able to get a good impression of you after one class - thats the point. If you equate "challenge assumptions" and "critical thinking" with disagreeing with your students on purpose, then I'm not suprised that they think ill of you.

  Lastly, the great advantage of sites like this one and RMP is that people are free to speak their minds on even footing without fear of retaliation. I wonder if by not consulting the site, you are trying to do anything but block out what you don't want to hear.

• RESPONSE
• Posted by jeff on January 25, 2006 at 7:50pm EST

• Response to undergraduate Kevin:

  >A bad professor will be remembered for a good while.

  As I wrote, my evaluations are good. On RMP, my rating is average...not frowny or smiley. The few comments I mention are out of uncountable numbers of students I've had over the years.

  >If you explained something and multiple students are under the impression you explained it wrong.

  The posts were the first I ever knew about this. Ironically, what they wrote that I said is factual and correct. But if they had a question, why not just come and ask me to clarify?

  >A high school student should be able to get a good impression of you after one class

  I guess just like you decided that I'm a bad prof based on my short post. You don't know me or what I've done for students, yet your words drip with hostility.

  >thats the point. If you equate “challenge assumptions” and “critical thinking” with disagreeing with your students on purpose, then I’m not suprised that they think ill of you.

  My students seem to enjoy the spirited class conversations, many times some staying after class just to keep talking. Perhaps the HS student had never been in a class where everybody sits in a circle and argue with each other and me; spirited, challenging, and yes...educational. But you seem to have a much better grasp of being open minded and critical thinking...giving me at least a little benefit of a doubt with your fair, balanced, and deep response...

  >you are trying to do anything but block out what you don’t want to hear

  No...the whole point of my post was that many of the comments on the site are not from legit students. I read my evals and try to adjust my teaching...I often invite students to talk to me about how the classes can be better. I'm not perfect, but I love what I do and try my best. But those who will not stand behind what they write and cower in anonymity...like I wrote...cowards.

• Response
• Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on January 25, 2006 at 8:30pm EST

• It was not my intention to sound hostile - I was direct but did not intend any hostility. I apologize if it came off that way.

  Students are students whether anonymous or not. I don't know how you respond to questions in your class or during office hours, however, many teachers at many universities are commonly disrespectful, condescding or just difficult to approach to students. No one might ever tell you that you are difficult to approach or that they feel you are not polite or respectful when asked for assistance. It is more likely they will complain to friends and the internet than risk a confrontation. Many people of all ages feel that they are approachable when in fact they are quite uncivil to those who engage them. I don't know if that is the case in your particular instance. It is entirely possible and plausable from here, however.

  Additionally, any comment made in person or with identification opens up the possibility of reprisals from faculty like yourself or fellow students with differing attitudes at times. Its pretty difficult to convince people you won't retaliate if they give you direct criticm, even if you assure them it is welcome.

  I enjoyed a great many spirited class discussions in high school both in and out of class on a great variety of subjects. There is a generally clear difference between stimulating conversation and insulting people. Some few are thin-skinned and unreasonable. Most are not. If people are routinely offended, and an impartial observer (the high school student) is struck, then you may wish to reexamine your methods rather than dismiss them as mean-spirited or ignorant. The thought that a high school student would find something so offensive that he or she would take to the internet to tell people about it after a single class should sound like a wake up call.

• final response
• Posted by jeff on January 25, 2006 at 10:05pm EST

• Kevin,

  If I could once again be a freshman in college, the last thing I'd do is hover around a small, insignificant corner of the Internet, picking at a couple of profs who have huddled together to vent a little.

  The negative comments about me on RMP were nothing better than small pieces of anonymous hate mail. As humans, even thick skinned people (after working in the music industry since I was 17, I'm thick skinned) can feel pained and try to figure out why such animosity. So I found this little corner, posted my little comments, felt better and ready to move on, only to allow myself to be drawn into an unexpected fruitless debate.

  So I'm going to move on and not return to this little corner after this final post...no refuge here. And no, it's not because I can't face the truth...I'm just trying to find some solace so that I don't become the burnt-out profs you described...who also began with so much promise only to be picked at until they just became hard...there are many I've met this describes.

  You obvioulsy have some brains. Get a few years' experience, some gray hairs, a few wrinkles, and you'll look back on this and wonder why you wasted time when you could have been going out and changing the world.

  There are a couple of young men I know who would love to be suffering the horrible indignities of us profs...instead of worrying if the package by the road is going to explode. All of this is just not that important.

  My generation was raised on

  "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you give."

  Today's generation can't get past 'take.'

  Go get a life Kevin, fall in love, do something great!

  Outta here...Later.

• Posted by Disturbed , Student Incivility at (everywhere it seems) on February 20, 2006 at 6:40pm EST

• In keeping in line with parents and adults who acutely resent the (seemingly all too open) schedules, (seemingly light) workloads, (the seemingly unfair) tenure, and (way too much awarded) vacation time of college professors today, the Rate my professors internet site reflects just how acute that resentment—and bitterness—is. These "ratings" on this site are, in the end, mean and slanderous and given out of context—they are not informative and helpful. There is a bumper crop of incivility and immaturity in the classroom and it rears its ugly head in these "ratings." I am in subdued disbelief that a site like that one can exist. What a sad commentary on our culture.

• Posted by Mel , museum worker/recent grad on May 12, 2006 at 11:25pm EDT

• I'm in that minority who rates all my professors, with comments on actual teaching style. I think I've posted one truly negative review (the professor singled out students--not me, actually--to pick on publically), and I did note that I still managed to learn a lot in the class.

  I think ratemystudents is very entertaining and see nothing wrong or immature about professors venting.

  I think ratemyprofessors is flawed, but still moderately useful, provided the student focuses on the substantive comments rather than the axes to grind and the numerical ratings.

• Posted by skooldood at In Texas on January 15, 2007 at 6:50pm EST

• Ahhh, such lively debate! This is one of the primary reasons I have decided to seek a higher education, not to mention the fact that I have reached the glass ceiling in the energy transfer sector. I became aware of RMP after I had registered for my first semester of classes. I chose the courses that I believed would make the greatest impact on the remainder of my academic career. I have been out of school for 27 years. I did well on the THEA and was accepted into a CC. I registered, then I downloaded the course syllabi. After reading the ENGL 101 syllabus, I became apprehensive and I started to worry that maybe I had made some grave error in judgement, returning to school after all these years. The syllabus intimidated me! I tried to print this medieval tome of pedagogical ideology but soon squandered my supply of ink. After I changed my sweat soaked shirt, I began to search, in earnest, for any information I could find on this irrational, self-centered pedant I had unwittingly acquired. At this point, I stumbled across the RMP website. I began to rejoice. The exhilaration I felt is indescribable. Here was this powerful tool that any neophyte could use so that s/he could make an informed decision on choosing which professors we are more likely to be compatible with. Sure, some of the descriptions may be skewed by predjudice or maliciousness, however one can discern the overall tone of the course and the temperament of the professor. These few generalizations can be the difference in 2.5 and a 3.5 gpa. I’ve read all of the opinions and there are nuggets of truth in every one of them. However Mr. Duemer is especially caustic in his remarks. His argument vacillates between “I once thought that RMP was a useful tool but has devolved” into racial stereotypes. I like the customer — client scenario Dr. Ahmad presented. It is a clever insight that casts the burden of “instruction” over both professor and student. Kgotthardt makes a relevant point by shifting responsibility back to the professor. S/he argues that the educators could and should post their personal cirriculum and syllabus for all prospective students to see w/ an area for student feedback. We could then make an educated guess as to whether or not this particular class/pedagogue/method of instruction would be practical and constructive for all concerned. I sincerely feel that RMP saved me a great deal of anxiety and grief, maybe even 2 letter grades. It may have even salvaged my collegiate pursuit by my not becoming disaffected with college on the premise of one course/educator. I was able to drop that class and register w/ an educator that I feel comfortable with. I could surmise, by reading his personal web page, that he is committed to educating his pupils in a confident and relaxed manner. I also feel that I am fortunate to live in the information age and that websites like RMP exist. Good day

• My remarks...
• Posted by skooldood at In Texas on January 15, 2007 at 8:30pm EST

• The peoples comments to whom I refer to in the above tirade are taken, in context, from an earlier discussion about the RMP debate. You can find it at www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/11/02/rmp
  Good day

• Civility
• Posted by taladuz on January 20, 2007 at 10:55am EST

• The break-down of civility and the globalization of the consumer culture feed these trends. Students tend to think of themselves as "consumers" when that is an innappropriate way of viewing the professor student relationship and some professors need to remember what it is like to be (as they once were to one degree or another) a struggling student. The student/professor relationship is most appropriately viewed as a client relationship. We do not need to accept every potential client; and when the client needs to get bad news (poor grades for self-reflection and improvement) the professional must deliver them, but always with the improvement of the client in mind (not just writting off the student as "the density of urnaium"). The emergence of a "shock-jock" mentality in the media (from both the right and now the left) as evidenced by such shows as, "American Idol" (can you imagine if student presentations were critqued in the same manner as American Idol? [sure to put a smile on some frustrated professors face]. Much more civility, understanding, compasion and willingness to be open to change needs to be brought to these important and on-going discussions. And a final word about the banal and short-sighted attacks on tenure. If you are attacking tenure then you are very uninformed about its purpose. Tenure protects the right of free speech. This is a foundational right in a democracy...it keeps our country relatively free of tyrants and rampant ideological stupidity (whatever the source of that studpidity). Educate yourself about your own first amendment rights. Think about what it might be like to be a professor with a new and maybe unpopular idea and how easy that would be to suppress without the right to professorial free speech and inquiry (tenure). For example, consider the issue of global warming; what if every professor that discussed it, researched it, and published about it was in danger of losing their jobs. Now, if your grandchildren survive on this planet past 2100 becuase we respond to global warming in a meaningful way; thank TENURE.

• Actually 3 Customers
• Posted by Student Turned Prof on May 3, 2007 at 4:25am EDT

• Having been a student for the program that I now teach I can acutely relate to how my students are feeling and thinking from day one. The prevalence of 'consumer' thinking is troubling for many of the reasons stated here, but I've found most of the fight goes out of the discussion when I start my courses with a reminder that there are actually 3 'customers' being served - the student in class, the student's future employer, and the student in the future when they are a graduate in the work force. Each of these has their own wishes and desires for the content and ease of the course. I explain that I can not cater to their present day demands for easy grades with little or no work because that is in violation of their future needs and the needs of their employers. "You might find me hard and/or not like me now but I never want you to look back and think that I didn't provide useful content that you need to get/keep your job." (FYI - A recent check of my RMP status shows a mix of the pissed off and happy with a positive overall rating.)

  I was just at a training session the other day with professors from around the east coast and a few of us were wishing for a RMS site, but not from a venting perspective. We are getting really fed up with the increasing levels of plagiarism and disruptive behaviour. I think many employers would be interested to know how we found students to be in class because in many ways class time is like a meeting. A good supervisor/leader is always teaching. The agenda for the class is no different from the agenda for a meeting. In meetings you are expected to pay attention, record and share information, and above all arrive prepared. So how about rating students for interpersonal skills, how prepared they are, how helpful/engaged, if they pay attention vs IM or play video games or do other course work, submits work on time, etc.? I think employers would find that very useful. I often hear students explain that they don't try in class like they would in a job because no one is paying them and it doesn't count.

  I don't know about other profs, but if you get an A grade in my class your industry ready and if integrity and transparency is what RMP is about, how differently might students behave if they knew their employers could see what their track record on a RMS site equivalent. I can see a lot of students behaving very differently if they knew it was going on a public web record that would follow them outside of their school days. To make it more legit than the present RMP, comments would be restricted to registered profs who would be initially anonymous on the site but could be contacted by registered employers. Most profs would love to sing the praises of their best students, record the short comings of their worst which would mean the mediocre students would be the most likely to be not bothered with.

  What employers take the time to actually look at school transcripts anyway and what transcript includes this kind of information?