Comments on George Carlin Need Not Apply

• mutual resolution
• Posted by get it on March 8, 2006 at 7:35am EST

• Like I've/you've got to get the fuck out of here?

• The language police
• Posted by feudi pandola on March 8, 2006 at 8:10am EST

• I hope there is more to this story than this one allegation. Even if the professor did use the "f bomb" on occasion, he should not be fired if he used it as a teaching tool. I once had a creative writing teacher in high school who asked me to stay after class one day. I was being a wise ass in his class and I was deserving of a rebuke.

  The teacher took me aside and told me to "stop fucking up his class". My high school was a rough all-male institution in South Philadelphia. Still, his message was pretty startling coming from a teacher. It hit home. I never disrupted this class again and this teacher became one of the most positive influences in my life. He was a great teacher, plain and simple.

  It sure sounds like this incident was a complete over reaction. I wish this teacher well and hope he stands up for his freedom of speech, in court, if necessary.

• F-word in harrisbug CC
• Posted by Linda on March 8, 2006 at 9:30am EST

• Oh for crying out loud. Yet another reason to be embarrassed to be born and raised in Pennsylvania. When will this state get anything fucking right?

• Freedom of Expression
• Posted by T Jefferson on March 8, 2006 at 10:05am EST

• I suppose Harrisburg CC, and all those who weighed in to support "freedom of expression" previously--but are notably absent from this discussion-- would be supporting Mr. Williams if he had used the "F-word" in a cartoon or comic strip.

• Hypocrisy --yet again
• Posted by Michael on March 8, 2006 at 10:05am EST

• Oh my ... the f-bomb dropped in a classroom; in a community college HISTORY classroom noless. Surely the apocalypse is upon us, or at least upon college administrators.

  Oh my .... Please, oh please dear administrators, save us from ourselves and thank you for your zealous oversight.

  If the story about Professor Williams is true as reported in this particular article (George Carlin Need Not Apply), then the Harrisburg Community College Board of Trustees is obligated to intervene immediately and conduct a reality check on those administrators.

• He Screwed Up
• Posted by John on March 8, 2006 at 10:15am EST

• The US has always had a major hangup on sex. But there are levels of severity with the use of the word fuck. The most unacceptable would be to indicate sexual intercourse, more acceptable would be to suggest disaster, such as Katrina, where FEMA "fucked up." A more acceptable substitute is the word "screw," a perfect replacement for fuck. I have heard the s-word used by preachers as they addressed their congregation and no one was offended by it.

• Posted by Douglas Lewis on March 8, 2006 at 10:20am EST

• One more example of the progressive vulgarization of public life.

• Fabulous revelations
• Posted by Chuck on March 8, 2006 at 10:35am EST

• Perhaps the poor prof used the word in a way that offended students?

  Maybe he was using the word to be a show-off or as a gratuitous insult?

  Suppose he once said to a student, "Melissa, if you ever interrupt me again with your whining questions, I'll fuck you over."

  Then what?

  No matter what, the word appears routinely in The New Yorker, The Times Literary Supplement, The New Republic, and Mother Jones......all publications alien to community college administrators......

• What the *bleep*?!
• Posted by John on March 8, 2006 at 10:35am EST

• Once again, in the name of "confidentiality," we are denied all access to the truth of the situation. WAS this professor fired because of his choice of language or not?! Why is this information being withheld from those of us with a vested interest in how public education is administered (and that includes faculty, students, administrators, and taxpayers in general)? Whatever "settlement" has been reached, the rest of us have a right to know where the lines are being drawn.

  I use colorful language in my classrooms on a regular basis--never hatefully, and never directed at particular students (unless they happen to be fucking up, in which case, we have a private conversation). Simple civility dictates that. But it's never entered my mind that a roomful of adults couldn't say "Aw, shit!" "What the fuck?" or "To hell with this..." when responding to literature or film or ideas. By whose standard of professional behavior is this deemed "inappropriate." Identify yourselves, and tell us which monastery you've been living in for the past 30 years or so!

  In my experience, most students tend to be amused or relaxed by the use of everyday speech (the kind they all use when they leave the classroom) by their instructors, if only because most of them are freshmen straight out of high school. Within a semester or so, they've gotten over the novelty of a professor who talks like a person, and decide that intelligence and education aren't equivalent to stuffiness and pretension. Ergo, they too can be smart, educated, "normal" people. This is one of the handful of ways that we can address the rampant "anti-intellectualism" in America--by letting students know that the classroom is a place for all classes, walks of life, personalities, and ways of speaking. Of course they're required to learn "formal" speaking and writing, but that doesn't mean that we address them in Latin on a daily basis!

• Too bad
• Posted by Yavo , adventurer on March 8, 2006 at 11:10am EST

• The really depressing thing about this is that the guy can't come up with any more interesting ways of "reaching out" to students, or any more interesting ways of expressing what "fuck" was meant to express. Use your imaginations, people. Don't use the same shortcuts everyone else uses. Flex your heads.

• Posted by Angela on March 8, 2006 at 11:10am EST

• It's interesting that people tend to make the assumption that profanity is "everyday speech". Althought we may be in the minority, there are still those of us who are able to communicate effectively without resorting to the "F-word" or other profanity. Unfortuantely we seem to have reached a point where the use of profanity in the media and in the classroom is not only accepted, but expected, and anyone who chooses not to use profanity is considered backward and our of touch.

• Posted by Steve on March 8, 2006 at 11:35am EST

• "Simple civility dictates that. But it’s "never entered my mind that a roomful of adults couldn’t say “Aw, shit!” “What the fuck?” or “To hell with this...” when responding to literature or film or ideas. By whose standard of professional behavior is this deemed “inappropriate.” Identify yourselves, and tell us which monastery you’ve been living in for the past 30 years or so!"

  What planet are you on? Work at a corporation, work at a store, work at a government agency, and use that language. You will, indeed, be punished (though perhaps not fired after a first offense, repeated use will get you fired).

  I guess if its hip to say 'fuck', professors must be allowed to do it (because, professors are hip, you dig?).

  In the real world (outside of, perhaps, the military, construction work, anywhere else?), hipness is not an excuse for incivility.

  Steve

• Posted by mws , Assistant Professor of English at Johnson County Community College on March 8, 2006 at 11:35am EST

• I just can't fucking believe that some fuckers are so fucking upset at using the "f-word" that they would go and fuck over a fucking professor for saying fuck in class when every fucking student in that class has probably uttered the fucking word like five or six fucking times. What the fuck?

• Posted by faye on March 8, 2006 at 12:15pm EST

• Chuck, Chuck, Chuck...although I agree with your premise that the f-word is used at times in the publications you mentioned, please don't ASSUME that CC instructors (did you imply adminstrators also?) are unaware of these publications. Making gross overgeneralizations does not help the cause here. BTW, I subscribe to Mother Jones, The Utne Reader, and regularly find in the recycled magazine area, many of the publications you think I, and my colleagues, are unaware of.

• What is Vulgar?
• Posted by CJO on March 8, 2006 at 12:40pm EST

• Douglas Lewis commented: "One more example of the progressive vulgarization of public life." Angela said: "It’s interesting that people tend to make the assumption that profanity is `everyday speech'. Althought [sic] we may be in the minority, there are still those of us who are able to communicate effectively without resorting to the “F-word” or other profanity."

  Regarding Angela's comment, if the majority do use profanity, then wouldn't profanity be part of "everyday speech"? I wouldn't be surprised if at this point someone used my response as proof of that Douglas's distress over "progressive vulgarization."

  But what is "vulgar"? Italian, French, Spanish and other Latinate languages evolved out of vulgar dialects of Latin, vulgar being associated with the common people.

  That which is vulgar is usually offensive--but to whom and why? How much of the designation of "vulgar" rests on classism, racism, or sexism? [Yes, sexism: read chapters 4 and 5 of Dennis Baron's _Grammar and Gender_ (Yale UP, 1986) for many examples of the ways in which women's use of the English language were blamed for a decrease of quality in communication.]

  On what basis is F--- so objectionable? [Ironically, I can't get rid of my childhood conditioning enough to allow myself to write out the word: not a belief, but a case of being haunted by childhood proscriptions that creates this inconsistency you see.] As Chuck observed, the context in which and purpose for which this word was used in the classroom is critically important to consider in judging its use. And John noted that he's heard preachers use the word "screw" (I assume "s-word" referred to that rather than to "shit") by preachers with no apparent offense taken by the congregation. When did that become acceptable? Who gets to decide what is acceptable and what isn't?

  Businesses often operate at a more formal discourse level than colleges and universities have, at least for the past 30+ years; this can be seen in dress as well as speech, not to mention possibly other ways. It's therefore not surprising that the use of f--- would be tightly controlled in a business environment. The greater informality of discourse that can often be found in higher education, particularly the classroom, does not indicate a lower standard of "civility" in academia; if it does, who gets to decide what "civility" entails (and here again we get classism, racism, and/or sexism possibly operating).

  When I teach, I deliberately use a wide range of registers for several reasons, some of which were articulated by John. But these reasons are all linked to the generation of understanding of a number of different topics in my students.

• Not enough information
• Posted by Mr. Huntly on March 8, 2006 at 12:55pm EST

• "What planet are you on? Work at a corporation, work at a store, work at a government agency, and use that language. You will, indeed, be punished (though perhaps not fired after a first offense, repeated use will get you fired)."

  Nonsense. Lawyers, doctors, and business-people use such language in casual conversation on a regular basis, and none are fired because of it (unless, of course, they're disliked by their superiors who are looking for an excuse). Nor is it typically deemed "uncivil" in everyday conversation unless it's being directed at a specific person or in an angry tone (I've heard church-ladies swear when their cakes fell over during a bake-sale, usually to general laughter). No, it's not part of formal presentations or client-relations in any of those settings, but I suppose the question is: what should the atmosphere of the classroom be? Formal and restricted, or casual and open? I'd say that question depends upon teaching style, the maturity of the students, and the relationship between students and professors--it's not a given, nor should it be dictated by institutions. If students don't like a professor's particular manner, they're free to drop the class, write poor evaluations, or share their thoughts on one of the many public forums available for such complaints. If the language is abusive or somehow socially or politically biased, then they have the right to complain to administrators. However, the mere use of such language should not, in itself, be cause for termination. The problem in this case, as mentioned above, is that we haven't been given all the facts--so there's no way to examine how just or unjust this instructor's treatment might have been. But for those arguing that language must always be carefully censored for the purposes of spared sensibilities--well, clearly we have different notions of "free speech" as well as academic "professionalism."

• IF HE TAKES THE UNIVERSITY TO COURT HE WILL WIN
• Posted by Lester L Washington , Mr. at Colorado State University on March 8, 2006 at 2:15pm EST

• The federal court system ruled that it is ok to use the "F" word in court for emphasis - and that was for a 16 year old in court. I would not want to be the person that fired him.

  Peace

  Lester

• Posted by Douglas Lewis on March 8, 2006 at 4:50pm EST

• I have read the responding to my post, and I will stand by my original comment, which seems more obvious (to me, at least) than when I made it. CJO, meet mws.

• treason has been committed
• Posted by no on March 8, 2006 at 4:50pm EST

• The freedom of speech is fundamental.

  Everything else about democracy flows
  from it.

  Anyone who agrees that draconian punishment
  is ever appropriate, below the well-known
  limit of shouting fire in a crowded theater,
  is not in support of our democracy, and is
  thereby guilty of treason.

  It is too easy to allow freedom of speech as
  long as only the 'right' things are said.

• Let's suspend all the students who are heard to curse
• Posted by T Jefferson on March 8, 2006 at 4:50pm EST

• Hey Angela & Steve,
  I suppose you are in favor of expelling every student who utters the word "fuck" on campus. And, of course, you want to censor those artists who profane their canvasses with nude human bodies. And, let's censure anyone who uses the lord's name in anger. And, anyone who assigns a book, film, etc. with the word in it because clearly they are advocating such language and polluting our youth.

  Why don't you encourage Dick Cheney to negotiate a settlement to step down for his vulgar use of the word on the sacrosanct senate floor.

  That people can get so upset about three little phonemes strung together in a particular order is ludicrous given the magnitude of other problems we face in this country and on the planet.

• George Carlin...
• Posted by steve on March 8, 2006 at 4:50pm EST

• The 'F'-word isn't profane. It's simply vulgar.

  I occasionally let slip a cuss-word, here and there, but I'm trying to reach as many as possible. I used to congratulate myself in wilder and woolier times for reaching the wilder and woolier students with vulgar language sprinkled in. Then it dawned on me that there are some very good students who are turned off by it. There are other ways of appealing to the blue-collar "fringe." You don't have to offend sensibilities to do it!

• Posted by Henry Vandenburgh on March 8, 2006 at 6:20pm EST

• Works pretty well for waking up a zoned-out 1 PM class, too.

  The "real world" and vulgarization folks are dead wrong. In the 60s-70s, when classes were more exciting (in my opinion, anyway), you probably heard it more than you do now. (My personal fear is that my field, sociology, will be ultimately and ironically be captured by PC yuppies. The anti-vulgar language stuff can easily be inserted into PC, since PC is so prissy about language.)

  Couldn't agree more that the F-word is a staple of business.

• Warning...
• Posted by David on March 8, 2006 at 9:40pm EST

• I can't wait to see next year's course catalogs: "Warning:this course may contain strong language or depictions of violence, sex or substance abuse. Student discretion is advised."

  Oh, their poor virgin ears. Fuck'em if they can't take a joke.

  If, as so many have pointed out earlier today, the story is accurate and complete as written--what a crock of you-know-what.

• Progressive vulgarization? Donald Lewis?
• Posted by Arthur Ide, PhD on March 8, 2006 at 9:45pm EST

• Nonsense. Fuck is a very old word. Even www.dictionary.com notes: "Its first known occurrence, in code because of its unacceptability, is in a poem composed in a mixture of Latin and English sometime before 1500. The poem, which satirizes the Carmelite friars of Cambridge, England, takes its title, “Flen flyys,” from the first words of its opening line, “Flen, flyys, and freris,” that is, “fleas, flies, and friars.” The line that contains fuck reads “Non sunt in coeli, quia gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk.” The Latin words “Non sunt in coeli, quia,” mean “they [the friars] are not in heaven, since.” The code “gxddbov xxkxzt pg ifmk” is easily broken by simply substituting the preceding letter in the alphabet, keeping in mind differences in the alphabet and in spelling between then and now: i was then used for both i and j; v was used for both u and v; and vv was used for w. This yields “fvccant [a fake Latin form] vvivys of heli.” The whole thus reads in translation: “They are not in heaven because they fuck wives of Ely [a town near Cambridge].”

  See also: http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Fuck

  for superior discussion of origins, history, and use worldwide.

  This "community college" and its "leaders" and "administrators" should be fired--for total ignorance, pandering to prudery, and instilling fear. What a bunch of fuck-offs!

• Much Ado About Nothing
• Posted by Shannon on March 9, 2006 at 4:50am EST

• Arthur Ide is vastly more convoluted and opaque than he needs be in tracing the origin of the word "fuck."

  It was simply an acronym from the pre-1600 period which meant "fornication under command of the king," and was often used as sly double-meaning term as such.

• Posted by anon on March 9, 2006 at 9:50am EST

• Sorry, Shannon, the "fornication under the consent of the king" thing is an urban legend.

• Posted by Jeremy on March 9, 2006 at 11:25am EST

• I'm shocked a professor dropped the F-bomb in class. As an undergrad, a humanities professor unleashed several surface to air f-bombs on our unsuspecting class. I lost all feeling in my left middle finger, and to this day - over a decade later! - I still cannot fully extend it, even after years of physical therapy.

  I'm one of the lucky ones. A friend of mine in Maine took a damn straight in the left eye, and now looks like Moshe Dayan. Shame on these ivory tower types for maiming and blinding students with profanity.

• Freedom of Speech
• Posted by Kabin Thomas , FORMER adjunct Assistant Professor at University of Arkansas on March 9, 2006 at 11:40am EST

• Since I was a tangential mention in the original article, I too want to jump on my soapbox for a minute in response to colleagues who say my language is inappropriate or unprofessional:

  "Yes, I am a "loose canon" and yes I curse like a sailor (and Marine) and have done so for 10 years, to over 8000 students and attaining one of the consistently highest evals on the UA campus in the history of the institution.

  I've had over 100 students in just 10 years tell me that I have changed their life.
  Changed their LIFE!!!
  That is impressive, if I say so myself. That is God's will in action.

  I am very effective, even if my techniques are considered unacceptable. I am really really really effective.

  The case, it seems to me, is the honoring of free speech. Even bad words. Even to 18-22 year olds. Even to people who would never think of using those words.

  It is so honorable, this Free Speech right we have. Like me or not, the value of being a loose cannon is SO NECESSARY at institutions of higher learning....if only to say, "HERE! Don't be like him!!!"

  Wishing you well.

  Kabin Thomas
  Former Adjunct Assistant Professor at the University of Arkansas!

• Just A Snafu ...
• Posted by RWH on March 11, 2006 at 10:10pm EST

• I recall when my oldest son was about five or six and began experimenting with profanity, I told him something along the lines of “a word is simply a sound you make with your mouth. ‘Damn,’ ‘shit,’ ‘fuck’ are all words ... and hardly more evil than ‘darn,’ ‘shoot,’ or ‘oh fudge.’” I tried to help him understand the difference between those words and “nigger” (in virtually every context) and “bitch” (in many contexts) ... and I think he grew up with a good sense of when words were appropriate and when they weren’t. I felt a little guilty about it, because I tend to be somewhat Rousseauian in raising children, but he was forbidden to use “nigger” and “bitch.” He never did to the best of my knowledge, but I was prepared to punish him for doing so.

  Personally, I never use “fuck” ... and for no good reason other than I simply don’t need it. I hate to hear it used in comedy routines. In fact, I challenge you to pay strict attention to the content of a routine in which the comedian says “fuck this” and “fuck that.” Invariably the line will be not the least bit humorous or clever ... and it will almost always get a laugh. It really pisses me off.

  I teach mathematics, and I have a paragraph in my syllabi that says, “In a very real sense, I believe if Professor A is teaching MATH ***, then Professor B should define the homework assignments and Professor A should be completely unaware of what they are. Then, in class, when a student asks, “Can you help me with Problem X?”, that should be the FIRST TIME Professor A even sees the problem. To assign a problem and then actually work (or otherwise think about) it before the student asks for help is just “chicken.” In short, I detest slick proofs of theorems and slick solutions of problems in class and generally think they work to the disadvantage of a student trying to learn mathematics.

  Consequently, I occasionally go off in the wrong direction when responding to a student’s question, and when we reach a point where it’s obvious we have to back up and try something new, a well placed “shit” or “damn” lets everyone know we’re all in the same boat ... and it’s time to give it another shot.

  Jeepers Creepers (did you know that’s a substitute for Jesus Christ?), it just occurred to me that I do use fuck on rare occasions ... but never in class. Just ask me if I’d like to see UNC or BC whip Duke in the finals of the ACC tournament ... and I’ll respond “fuckin’-A ... and what could be more descriptive than that?

• Dismissed professor
• Posted by Martin Ramos , Quandary on March 13, 2006 at 8:50am EST

• A challenging situation, not only for the institution which fired Prof. Williams, but also for the professor himself. The question is, should anyone be allowed to use
  profanity in school, any school? I suspect
  that the answer would be "yes," if we consider mitigating circumstances. The situation involves adults, for example, not children, and nobody is offended, or embarrassed, when profanity is used. To say "no" in all cases would be to violate First Amendment Constitutional rights. A fact, I'm sure, Prof. Williams, and the institution for which he worked, is well aware of.

• Posted by Another Damned Medievalist on March 14, 2006 at 2:15am EST

• WTF?? Seriously. Generally speaking, I don't know anyone who thinks it's appropriate to swear in class. And those of us who do occasionally slip tend to stick to the words that pass the (no longer existent) 9 p.m. watershed. Me? I believe I recently said that the Sassanid Empire was was 'way the hell' to the east. Hilarity ensued.

  Still, it seems a bit much to dismiss a person for swearing, unless it is directed at a student. Considering how many faculty teach outdated material, or teach badly and keep their jobs, you have to wonder at people's priorities.

• Swearing in class
• Posted by Nee Naw Nee Naw , Dr at Somewhere in Oxford on March 15, 2006 at 9:05am EST

• I am an academic teaching literature at university and use a range of texts in which 'cunt', 'fuck' and all manner of lesser expletives are deployed liberally, artistically and to great effect.

  I will not have my language policed by anyone, and like James Kelman, deny that anyone has the right to tell me whether I can use some words but not others, my employers, my students, even my mum. As Tom Leonard says: 'All living language is sacred / Fuck the lohta thim'.

• Now What
• Posted by DD , Academic Advisor at College of Lake County on March 16, 2006 at 4:45pm EST

• So now that the f-bomb seems to be so terrible that we need to fire educators over it, what happens to the literature that contains this same expletive? Are we to ban that as well? No reading Bukowski in poetry class (certainly not out loud)? And are we to drop Claude Brown's "Man-child in a Promised Land" because of vulgarity? No "Autobiography of Malcom X"? Are we to run all of our reading lists past this confederacy of dull-witted bean counters before it gets offered? Frankly, I find their mangled double-speak that over uses words like paradigm, comportment, strategic planning, and the like far more offensive.

• Posted by Newbie , PhD on April 20, 2006 at 11:45am EDT

• The meaning we attach to symbols is conditioned, yet arbitrary; if the bell rings, Pavlov's dog will salivate. To protect the symbols that signify the mental space of profanity, the sign must remain in vain. In that case, the cause of the administrators is simply the effect of the word...