Advertisement

News, Views and Careers for All of Higher Education

The Real Bias in the Classroom

Much of the debate over the Academic Bill of Rights has concerned the claims of conservatives that students are punished by liberal professors for deviating from some sort of ideological orthodoxy.

There may be political bias in the classroom, but headed in the other direction. A new study — soon to be published in PS: Political Science & Politics — finds that students are the ones with bias, attributing characteristics to their professors based on the students’ perceptions of their faculty members’ politics and how much they differ from their own.

The authors of the study say that it backs the claims of proponents of the Academic Bill of Rights that students think about — and are in some cases concerned about — the politics of their professors. But the authors also say that the study directly refutes the idea that students are being somehow indoctrinated by views that they don’t like. “Students aren’t simply sponges,” says April Kelly-Woessner, part of the husband-and-wife team of political scientists who wrote the study. Further, she adds that the study suggests that not only do students not change their views because of professors, but may even “push back” and judge professors based on politics, not merit.

The study — which will be presented this week at a legislative hearing in Pennsylvania — ends with a strong call for professors to be willing to present ideas that may upset some students. “College is not Club Med. As instructors, we ought not to refine our pedagogy exclusively for the purpose of making students comfortable or improving course evaluations,” write Kelly-Woessner, who teaches at Elizabethtown College, and Matthew Woessner, who teaches at Pennsylvania State University at Harrisburg.

The couple will present the results of two papers based on a survey of 1,385 students in political science courses at a variety of public and private institutions. The students were asked a series of questions about their views of the politics of their professors, their own politics, and various other qualities that they attributed to the professors.

In the second study, currently under review for publication and not yet being released, they found that students experience “indirect effects” from having professors with significantly different politics from their own. In what the scholars call a “partisan difference variable,” students give less “source credibility” to professors with different views. They are also more likely to characterize professors with different politics as “biased or uncaring.”

Liberal or conservative isn’t the key factor, Kelly-Woessner says; the real disconnect comes in the difference between the views of student and professor. “It’s pretty much the same either way,” she says. “The thing that matters is the difference between them.”

In the research being published in PS: Political Science & Politics, findings included the following:

  • Most students feel confident that they know their professors’ political inclinations and that they are not hidden. Asked if they knew their professors’ leanings, 15 percent said that they were “positive,” 32 percent said that they were “very confident,” 40 percent were “somewhat confident,” and only 11 percent were “not at all confident.”
  • Students considered 77 percent of their professors to be left of center, and 7 percent right of center. (While the authors of the students didn’t verify that the professors indeed held those views, they note that such findings would be consistent with other surveys of the profession.) While more students in the survey identified themselves as liberal than as conservative, the split was such that the student body in this study was more conservative than the professors — as perceived by students.
  • Professors who students think are conservative are generally rated more favorably by students on whether they present material objectively.
  • Professors who students think are liberal are generally rated more favorably by students on whether students are encouraged to present their own viewpoints, whether grading is fair, whether the learning environment is comfortable, and whether they care about the success of students.

As for the politics of the authors of the study, Kelly-Woessner said that both she and her husband do not want to take a public stand on the Academic Bill of Rights so that their testimony is not prejudged by the lawmakers, who have been holding hearings prompted by the legislation. On politics generally, she said that her husband is a conservative Republican, but that she is “a little fuzzier,” in that “on some issues I go left and on some issues I go right.”

She periodically surveys her students to ask them what they think her political views are and they are generally divided or unaware — and she likes it that way.

Scott Jaschik

Got something to say?


Want it on paper? Print this page.
Know someone who’d be interested? Forward this story.
Want to stay informed? Sign up for free daily news e-mail.

Advertisement

Comments

So the students are the problem?

When a professor enters a class and tells the assembled multitude that he is “a Marxist, and will be teaching this class from a Marxist perspective,” students have every right to feel cheated out of a real educational experience. Most students now recognize an ideological dinosaur when they see one, and dinosaurs are legion in academia — with most of them intent on imposing a set of views rather than conducting a free-ranging investigation of intellectual terrain with their young charges. A put-upon, self-pitying stance is perhaps appropriate to the professoriat at this moment in history.

Patrick, at 8:05 am EST on March 20, 2006

So, does Patrick want to go on a dinosaur hunt?

Patrick, I am curious to know what professor (you can name names) does not disclose that his class is about Marxism in a course description and only THEN, declares his course to be about Marxism. I don’t think that such a professor exists. I think that “Marxist” professors are loud and proud about their beliefs.

But, what I wonder is why people have such a hard time with Marxism. Most Marxist scholarship is but a series of assumptions about the way the world works, which I don’t see as being any better or worse than any other assumptions, so long as all of the assumptions are made known at the beginning and subject to falsification.

Therefore, I am curious as to know why a Marxist is an “ideological dinosaur.” There are “perspectives” which predate Marxism. Does this mean that they are “dinosaurs”?

I think, Patrick, that by “ideological dinosaur” you mean “someone whose preferred assumptions have do not mesh with common politics.” Tell me I am if I am wrong.

Indeed, many people say that judges are biased in favor of the rich in order to maintain what they believe to be the status quo. (Are you going to scream “Marxist” at them?) Does this make them dinosaurs? Likewise, many economists would argue that certain widely-employed valuation models of derivative instruments, tends to make certain markets less volatile, and actually diminishes the incentive to take financial risks, and, in turn, reduces “profit.”

(Also, tell me if Marxism has really been “discredited” or whether such a discrediting is even possible in the near future.)

PS: I am not a Marxist. I think Marxist assumptions are incorrect (but I can’t prove it). I don’t work directly in academe. I have taught economics courses, and I was never called a Marxistm then.

Larry, at 9:00 am EST on March 20, 2006

“Real"?

“The Real Bias in the Classroom”

Implying that the other bias is fake?

The headline-writer gets points for internet trolling, but loses accuracy points. The point of the study is not that professorial bias is an illusion, but that students also have political biases, and those biases color their impressions of profs.

Charles Hackney, psychology professor at Redeemer University College, at 9:00 am EST on March 20, 2006

Marx

I agree that if I walked into my lifespan human development class and made the comment of ‘I’m Marxist and this class will be taught that way’ would be totally unacceptable...however, if it is a theory class in Sociology, well, then it is acceptable.

Jody, at 9:00 am EST on March 20, 2006

Patrick, you fool, how is a teacher honestly announcing “I’m teaching this class from a marxist perspective” “cheating” anyone out of anything? Does an economics professor who teaches from a chicago school perspective count as “cheating?”

PG, at 9:05 am EST on March 20, 2006

“Rights” and Wrongs

“When a professor enters a class and tells the assembled multitude that he is “a Marxist, and will be teaching this class from a Marxist perspective,” students have every right...”

To drop the class, find another prof, switch schools to one more ideologically compatible (there are plenty), or better yet, skip college altogether and join the church or daddy’s business where they won’t have to hear any ideas that they disagree with. OR, they could stay in the class and learn something about Marxism, compare it to their prior indoctrination into capitalism, add something to their overall intellectual and philosophical content. They could even gather the courage to ask questions, offer critiques, present “the other side” that they somehow imagine that their professor is unqualified to discuss (I assure you, he’s not). You know—do what they’re supposed to be doing in college, rather than whining about how they’re being treated unfairly.

This study only confirms what has been obvious since the beginning of Horowitz’s Crusade: that the real bias in our society, both in- and outside of the college walls, is towards the right, the white, and the privileged. It’s not enough for conservatives to control the White House, the Congress, the military, the corporations, the school boards, the churches, the charities, etc. They also demand control of education, the media, and just about any form of expression that threatens dissent or even critique. They’ve indoctrinated their own children to expect affirmation, consent, and conformity from everyone around them—from their nanny (probably an immigrant) to their teachers to their eventual employees (probably working class and minority). When denied this “right” to a “fair and balanced” worldview, they throw tantrums and demand firings and “reforms.”

Few of them, of course, will try to learn enough in college to become professors themselves or bring something valuable back to the classroom. They’d rather complain about what they aren’t getting, and insist that they know something that their professors don’t. And then go join daddy’s business.

huntly, at 9:05 am EST on March 20, 2006

Patrick

In the article, one of the findings revealed is the following: “Professors who students think are liberal are generally rated more favorably by students on whether students are encouraged to present their own viewpoints, whether grading is fair, whether the learning environment is comfortable, and whether they care about the success of students."That contradicts your attempt at smearing “most” professors. Did you even read the article?

The fact that you wrote what you did is pretty ironic, isn’t it? ;~)

sean, Grand Valley State University, at 9:05 am EST on March 20, 2006

So the Caricatures Are the Problem?

Honestly, I am getting a little tired of generalizations like the one above, grounded in no specific experience. Did any specific professor actually walk into a classroom and make the statement alleged?But let’s say a professor did decide to teach from an explicitly Marxist perspective, and said as much. What’s the problem here? To begin, it’s truth in advertising—students understand clearly what they’re getting into. Second, Marxism is one of the most important ideological and intellectual movements of the past century and a half, and any educated person should have some exposure to it. Third, the bankruptcy of the Marxist project as a political revolutionary movement doesn’t detract from the potential value of Marxist analysis, particularly given how greatly that analysis has grown in sophistication and nuance over the decades. Fourth, being exposed to an idea doesn’t mean being asked to agree with it. And finally, no instructor ever enters a classroom without some kind of intellectual framework that has implicit if not overt political implications. I myself am a military historian working in what usually gets tagged as a “traditional” field, and I know for a fact we have our full share of political assumptions, most of them simply smuggled into the discourse.

Mark Grimsley, Professor at Ohio State University, at 9:25 am EST on March 20, 2006

Huntly

To summarize: I think Patrick has been discredited for two reasons. 1) If a professor really wanted to indoctrinate people he wouldn’t announce it; and 2) he doesn’t understand what Marxist theory is, anyway.

Huntly, I think you are dangerously oversimplifying, and doing some of the same things you accuse Patrick of doing. First of all, you don’t really define “conservative.” Indeed, I suspect “conservative” is a buzzword you use for any policy or legal choice that you disagree with. Assuming that there is a coherent body of “conservative” thought, in all of the above areas, other interests and philosophies have contaminated it so much, that the only way to describe the actions of the above bodies are in terms of either partisan interests or a much more complex philosophy. Like it or not, we still have 1) various social safety nets; 2) a military that accepts and promotes people of all races and colors (and I can personally attest to this – though, I will concede that in some areas there is room for improvement); 3) a military that recruits and promotes people regardless of their political preference or background (heck, I just attended a reception for the promotion of an officer who joined the military for Marxist reason that can only be described as a preference for Leninist-style egalitarianism); 4) I am wondering how you figure that politics “control” corporations, which are owned by shareholders. This is a new one on me. What about LLCs?; and 5) School boards seem to be reflective of local politics, which vary with geography.

Everyone tries to indoctrinate their own children. So what? Also, I would like to know what percentage of children is raised by nannies. (I think it is quite low, but I would be curious to where you get your ideas from.)

Larry, at 10:35 am EST on March 20, 2006

Cry Me a River

Sorry: I don’t pay tuition to be indoctrinated by pseudo-Marxists who are busy climbing the sociopolitical ladders of their universities.

I find that those people who spout Marxism are actually the biggest hypocrites: they champion collective action, but when the police show up at a strike movement, they are the first to hide behind the school’s administrators and ask for protection. They try to withhold students’ grades as a means of supporting the graduate union, but refuse to take responsibility when students get upset, saying “I did not create this situation.”

People like Huntly have a class-based axe to grind. So what if your parents were poor? Do you think the rest of us owe it to you to make sure you get a fair shake? No, sorry: act like a responsible human being and treat all of your students equally, the rich ones and the poor ones. It’s people like you who get fired from your lowly adjunct jobs for shooting off your mouth about how students should “go work for daddy.”

Student, at 10:35 am EST on March 20, 2006

Sean, my friend

I was not berating “liberal” professors per se, however you define that, though in this context it seems to be defined according to political viewpoints as expressed in the classroom. But since 77% of the professoriat are identified as roughly “liberal,” may we suppose that a student can go through an entire undergraduate experience without ever encountering a putative “conservative” (or a simple traditionalist scholar, without a hard political viewpoint to sell)? This imbalance might skew the sampling ratio.

As for those folks who aren’t acquainted with the sclerotic Marxist perspective applied to just about everything academic (literature, linguistics, foreign language, psychology, anything to do with race, sex or sexual orientation, the various tendentious revisionist fields of study), I am surprised at you. Remember Deconstructionism and all of its related offspring? That is the sort of dinosaur philosophy to which I refer, not the typical “attend the protest rally or you’ll be marked down” approach to mentoring, which is equally unfortunate but easier to overcome.

As for those who fail to see any discrediting of Marxist analysis over the last half-century, a little free-form dance atop what’s left of the Berlin Wall (or in the main square at Pyongyang) might constitute a satori of sudden enlightment and true consciousness. But I doubt it.

And I repeat: A put-upon, self-pitying stance is perhaps appropriate to the professoriat at this moment in history.

Patrick, at 10:35 am EST on March 20, 2006

What’s the Problem?

Mark Grimsley wrote, “But let’s say a professor did decide to teach from an explicitly Marxist perspective, and said as much. What’s the problem here?” The problem here is not intellectual, but ideological. Patrick and most—but not all others on this witch hunt—have a problem with the content, but pretend that the issue is the process. They dislike and are fearful of ideas that challenge the status quo in this country. They imagine that many students are equally fearful and dress up their complaints under the aegis of “fairness", “equality” and “professionalism” when in fact it’s all about using the political moment to advance their educational and thus, ideological, agenda. That there is any viable backlash and resistance is an indication that the politics of the situation are changing—but only somewhat in my view—because of the repeated debacles of the political right.

I know I’ll be villified as a conspiracy theorist for this and a left wing crank. But the fact is this administration has involved itself in education at all levels in ways that are utterly at odds with conservativism (compassionate or otherwise) and Republican precepts on no explicit politico-philosophical rationale. That’s because there isn’t one that’s palatable to left or right. If you want to see the future of higher education under a simliar administration (because it will take a few, but just a few, years to remake it) just look at K-12 education. NCLB and Reading First have gutted the profession. Under these laws teachers are required to read off scripts as “instruction” in many classrooms or risk losing absolutely essential funding. When schools fail to meet artificial “standards” they are shopped out to private education corporations, and these schools then are absolved of meeting the very standards that put the schools into receivership in the first place. All in the name of enforcing standards. If that seems ludicrous, that’s because it is. It also reveals the duplicitousness of these efforts “in the interests of poor, marginalized children".

These policies are about priviatizing and controlling education and educators. Think of how much money could be made by private concerns if all of public education were put in the hands of private corporations. Private testing companies (e.g. McGraw-Hill and its subsidiaries) that benefit from the testing craze under NCLB etc. have already reaped billions, yes billions while excellent programs that really work have been mercilessly cut. Look at what has happened to TRIO—a HIGHER EDUCATION program— to see the future.

Mark my words, so long as a like-minded administration is in power, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

Gadfly, at 10:35 am EST on March 20, 2006

It’s about the money

There has been no empirical dispute that certain academic departments are heavily skewed toward one of the two major political parties, as opposed to approximate 50-50 splits in the sciences. Written and audio-taped proof has been provided to prove that private and public monies have paid for “intellectuals” to bloviate on their biases.

This, as opposed to a concerted effort to deal with broadly, objectively, and politely with a controversial issue (K-12 gay rights) —

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opin...itorials/2006-03-19-faith-edit_x.htm

As the Grover Furr’s of the world didn’t volunteer to teach for nothing, this is about money. If an 50% budget cut (and resulting financial exigency that it would cause) is needed to fight political bias and repression in the classroom — so be it.

There’s an old farmer’s saying about slapping a donkey between the eyes to get its attention — hey, whatever works.

R.A.S., at 10:35 am EST on March 20, 2006

Two thoughts on the question of ideological bias

(1) Wouldn’t it be a greater crime to teach the class from a particular ideological point of view without making it clear up front?

(2) Try substituting the word “Christian” for “Marxist” in Patrick’s post, and see how it scans. Would the same people be upset? Would the concern be regarded as equally legitimate?

Either way, I’d rather have a professor analyze his or her own biases, and declare them up front, than to have them constitute a “hidden agenda.”

Whether my students would feel the same way, I couldn’t say. . .

Stephen Taylor, Assistant Professor of History at Macon State College, at 10:35 am EST on March 20, 2006

“Real” bias

Charles,I believe the word “real” in the headline is intended to point to the fact that there is real evidence from this study of actual bias on the part of students in terms of ratings. This is in contrast to the evidence of mere political affiliation on the part of faculty, but with no solid evidence of bias on the part of those professors.

Buck, Big Research U, at 10:50 am EST on March 20, 2006

So, to sum up

So, to sum up, Patrick, yes, the student is the problem—specifically the student who, knowing nothing at all about a topic, assumes that s/he knows everything important there is to know.

Of course, they are students because they (usually) have not yet had the years of specialized study and experience that those teaching them have. And people rarely become better students by only being taught what fits their preconceptions in the first place. Indeed, one could argue that in such a state, since the end product would be scarcely distinguishable from the entry product, no learning takes place.

Perhaps it would be sensible to encourage people who have spent years of studying to teach what they have learned, rather than simply to repeat whatever it appears the kids were taught in high school and/or by their parents so that the kids won’t be made to feel uncomfortable by having their lack of knowledge made apparent.

[Didn’t conservatives use to complain about dumbing down academics instead of recommending it?]

Thane Doss, at 10:50 am EST on March 20, 2006

ideologies v. interests

Student, The very fact that you proposed to identify someone as a certain ideology indicates that you are not being indoctrinated by it. (Stephen indicates this.)

Your assertion about the police and “hiding behind administrators” makes no sense. Are you saying that professors should volunteer to be arrested for things that are not crimes? And why?

Patrick, Even though you are utterly unable to respond to specific questions posed to you, I am now quite curious as to how you define a “liberal” professor. Do you correct for the self-interests associated with being a professor. (E.g. A professor at a state university would probably support the continued existence of his employer, and a professor receiving grant money probably would want to continue receiving that grant money.) Quite frankly, there are so many issues out there, that amongst people that matter, “liberal” and “conservative” are overly vague platitudes. The above poster who feared being condemned as a “crank” hinted at the fact that most partisan interests are different than ideologies. I accepted this years ago.

But, Patrick, I don’t think you really understand what constitutes Marxist scholarship. Perhaps you can explain why the fall of East Germany meant that an assumption of Marxist legal scholarship is untrue, and which legal theorists were discredited. (If you can’t do that, your theory is completely bogus.)

Finally, to everyone out there, I would suggest that all disciplines have some ideological biases. Someone who purports to major in them should, at the very least be able to identify them. (I can do this with the disciplines that my clients consider me a master of. Can you?)

Larry, at 11:25 am EST on March 20, 2006

A pox on both your houses

Why is it that every topic — including an evaluation of whether students are biased — seems to become a contest between those trying to score points for either liberalism or conservatism? And some who would like to draw in arguments about Christians as well? Are we as academics unable to simply think about recent research findings (however flawed they might be) without immediately pressing it into the service of petty ideological skirmishes?

Publius, at 11:25 am EST on March 20, 2006

Interesting Implications of the Study

When you combine

“The study — which will be presented this week at a legislative hearing in Pennsylvania — ENDS WITH A STRONG CALL FOR PROFESSORS TO BE WILLING TO PRESENT IDEAS THAT MAY UPSET SOME STUDENTS. “College is not Club Med. As instructors, we OUGHT NOT TO REFINE OUR PEDAGOGY EXCLUSIVELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF MAKING STUDENTS COMFORTABLE or improving course evaluations,” write Kelly-Woessner, who teaches at Elizabethtown College, and Matthew Woessner, who teaches at Pennsylvania State University at Harrisburg."(emphasis added)

with

“...more students in the survey identified themselves as liberal than as conservative”

it sounds to me like the authors are advocating more conservative talk in the classroom, right? If the professors should be able to challenge students’ beliefs, and students are disproportionately liberal, then professors should be able to challenge those liberal beliefs, right?

(that’s what they are saying. I wonder if that’s what they actually intended...)

Steve

Steve, at 11:55 am EST on March 20, 2006

Walk the Walk, Don’t Just Talk the Talk

My remark about a specific professor’s cowardly act of encouraging students to protest in front of the library (illegally blocking the entrances), only to run and hide behind an administrator when the police showed up (arresting the exposed students, instead) is meant to illustrate a point.

That point is this: when professors use in-class space in order to encourage out-of-class actions that will likely result in legal or professional problems for students, they should think twice about their own power relations to those students.

The administrator protected the fearful and cowering faculty member, but you can bet that the students were arrested.

Irony: It’s just like Marx, trying to save the plebian masses while his own family starved...

Student, at 12:05 pm EST on March 20, 2006

the myth of liberal bias in higher ed

Debunking the Myth of Liberal Bias in Higher Education

Two studies published on November 18, 2004, echo a familiar theme; “America’s colleges and universities are too politically liberal and that’s a big problem (1)!” The studies found that Democrats outnumber Republicans in university faculty positions in the humanities and social sciences by seven to one. The number is as high as nine to one at Berkeley and Stanford across academic disciplines. The least difference exists in economics (3:1) and the most in anthropology (30:1).

These studies add fuel to a fire conservatives have been sparking for years. William Buckley recently wrote a nationally syndicated opinion piece echoing the same theme (2). Last month a community college professor in North Carolina was suspended for showing the film Fahrenheit 9/11 in class (3). Students at some Texas universities have begun to create “watch lists” for liberal professors advising students to avoid certain classes (4). Groups like Students for Academic Freedom and the Center for Campus Free Speech have formed to protect students’ rights to academic freedom of inquiry against the tyranny of liberal professors. Thirteen states, apparently unaware of the meaning of the term theory, have mandated public school curricula which includes “intelligent design” and “creation science” as an alternative to the theory of evolution in biology and anthropology classes (5, 6). Most ominously, a widely publicized and cited piece, “Defending Civilization: How Our Universities are Failing America and What can be Done About It” published in 2002 by the American Council of Trustees and Alumni (ACTA-which Lynn Cheney founded and chairs), is a battle cry denouncing liberal professors, their biases, and the horrendous impact they have had on America, especially in the post-9/11 world. It is clear to even the most casual observer that the “liberal institutions” of higher education and public education in our country are under attack.

And so the claim of liberal bias in higher education merits examination. Are our schools and colleges liberally brainwashing our future? Do liberal professors unduly influence students? What impact does this alleged bias have on our country? This essay examines this claim and attempts to debunk the myth of liberal academia.

1. The proof is in the pudding. The simplest response to claims of liberal bias in academia is to ask for evidence of its impact. Today we have a Republican White House, a Republican Senate, a Republican House of Representatives, a Republican Supreme Court, Republicans control the Governorship in 28 states, including the “blue” states of New York and California, conservatives dominate American business and increasingly dominate America’s religious institutions, and conservative commentators dominate our nation’s media from the neoconservative pages of the Wall Street Journal to the one-sided television coverage by Fox news to the late night rantings of talk radio. Most of the loudest critics of America’s universities received their degrees at these liberal institutions. For all the talk of the liberal socializing influences of our universities, the impacts have simply failed to materialize.

2. Studies of liberal academics sample too narrowly. It perhaps should not surprise us that Berkeley, Stanford and Harvard have many liberal faculty members. Increasingly though, this is not where most Americans receive their education. Nearly half of all students enrolled in higher education in the United States today are at community colleges, non-degree granting institutions, and business schools (7). Witness the growth of the University of Phoenix, Business Computer Training Institute, and the overwhelming growth of community and two-year colleges to see where Americans are increasingly learning. As of yet, there is little evidence or reason to believe professors at these schools will be as liberal as their Ivy League and liberal arts peers.

3. The institution of higher education is conservative. No one would deny that there are liberal professors at colleges, or even that those professors outnumber their more conservative coworkers. The influence a teacher has on students is limited though. Sure students learn something from their Marxist history teacher or their feminist literature professor, but they also learn much more significant, and more conservative, lessons at school. Students learn to compete for grades, work in teams, and produce papers and projects by deadlines, a perfect introduction to the capitalist workplace and an ideological foundation for meritocracy. Students are bombarded by Coke machines and advertisements at school, preparing them for the other side of the marketplace, consumerism. Students learn to listen to their teachers and respect authority, clear stepping stones to acceptance of hierarchy. Students learn that school costs a lot of money; there is no such thing as a free lunch. On the whole, the institutional message of education may far outweigh the instructional and curricular impact of their liberal professors (see point 1).

4. College has become job training. While colleges once focused on the liberal arts, critical thinking, and challenging conventional wisdom, many of today’s institutions of higher education are little more than vocational programs. Preparing people for the workplace hardly qualifies as liberal, radical, or reformist.

5. Liberal professors don’t necessarily indoctrinate. While evidence suggests that many professors at major universities are Democrats (does this actually qualify them as liberals?), little empirical research has demonstrated that this comes out in their teaching. After all, liberal professors may well have a commitment to reason and knowledge and scientific research (which some might call liberal values) over faith and dogma (which are more commonly associated with conservative ideologies). Of course a few anecdotes tell of Grinch-like teachers punishing students for their beliefs, but no broad quantitative evidence has demonstrated that liberal teachers routinely inflict their ideologies on their students. In any case, it is at least possible these liberal teachers don’t seek to indoctrinate, and we should give them the benefit of the doubt until evidence proves otherwise.

6. Pluralistic societies need balance. When the founders of American democracy envisioned political debate, they assumed there would be factions, different institutions or groups in society with different political, economic, and social agendas. At its best, the American polity has been the politics of balance and the politics of the center. Historically, some institutions have served as conservatizing forces, others have had liberalizing effects, and others still mediating or neutralizing impacts on America’s sociopolitical disposition. Traditionally, the military and Wall Street have played conservatizing roles, advocating hawkish foreign policy and unrestrained markets. Similarly, higher education and the media have played liberalizing roles, seeking social progress and carefully watch-dogging government. The family and religion have largely been mediating institutions, reinforcing some conservative values while championing other liberal ones. And so America worked. Sometimes democracy was messy, but fundamentally these forces played out to allow for slow, cautious, incremental, but certain change and progress. Today this dynamic has changed. Once a champion of liberal causes, the modern press has become little more than a sounding board for the economic interests of America’s conservative business institutions and a PR agency for the White House (8). Anyone who has missed the impact of the O’Reilly Factor, Rush Limbaugh, or even the now much more conservative pages of the New York Times or NBC has not been paying attention. Likewise, the country’s churches have moved several steps to the right. Evangelicalism is the fastest growing religious philosophy in the U.S. Amongst once more liberal Catholics, George W. Bush received 52% of the vote in the 2004 election compared to Kerry’s 47% (9). Even if college professors espouse some liberal agenda, they are the peanut on the left side of the scale trying to counterbalance the elephant on the right.

7. Maybe liberals are right. There is a final possible explanation debunking the myth of liberal bias in higher education, and one many conservatives fear to look squarely in the eyes. University professors, almost by definition, are the most researched, most rationalistic, most educated people in society. They represent the value of science to our society, a core American value (America’s founders, products of the Enlightenment, were as much concerned with the ability of science and reason to elevate humanity as they were democracy or individualism). Perhaps scientific rationality, examination, and rational thought simply lead people to embrace liberal ideas. It is interesting and important to note that the same political fervor which has denounced the liberals of our colleges and universities has similarly denied science and rationality when politically inconvenient (evolution, global warming, missile defense systems, longer prison sentences, affirmative action, stem cell research, etc.). Others have pointed out the consistent anti-scientific bias of the current (and conservative) administration, as scientists with findings contrary to administration ideology quickly find themselves looking for work (10). In this sense, the “problem” with our universities may not be a liberal bias at all, but rather a fundamentalist rejection of reason and science for the comfort of faith, superstition, and dogma. The great liberal theorist and third president of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, expressed a belief that scientific rationality yields liberal political values most eloquently, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…”

Even if the myth of a liberal bias in higher education can be debunked, it turns us to the question of action. What should a well-meaning professor do? Should we move further to the left to counter-balance the shift in society at large? Move right to protect our jobs so we may have what influence we may have? Argue for reason in the security that reasonable, informed people will come around to our point of view? These questions I leave up to my colleagues, scholars and academics, fully capable of using their knowledge and research to better the American condition. It is our lot, role and duty to restore some credibility and rationality to American political discourse. Let’s hope we aren’t too late.

1. Tierney, John. November 18, 2004. “Republicans outnumbered in Academia, Studies Find.” The New York Times.http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/18...amp;ex=1101776677&pagewanted=all

2. Buckley, William F. November 21, 2004. “Dumb Bright Guys.” Associated Press.http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?..ucwb/20041122/cm_ucwb/dumbbrightguys

3. Smith-Arrant, Gail. November 18, 2004. “Teacher shows Fahrenheit 9/11, gets Rebuked.” Charlotte Observer.http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/10210344.htm?1c

4. Brown, Steve. November 6, 2003. “Conservative Students in Texas Place Liberal Profs on Watch List.” Cybercast News Service.http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200311\NAT20031106a.html

5. Mishra, Raja. November 28, 2004. “Teaching Evolution gets Test in Court.” The Boston Globe.http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/...913.story?coll=sfla-news-nationworld

6. Sappenfield, Mark and Mary Beth McCauley. November 23, 2004. “God or Science?” The Christian Science Monitor. http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1123/p11s02-legn.html

7. National Center for Education Statistics. 2004. “Enrollment in Postsecondary Institutions, Fall 2001 and Financial Statistics, Fiscal Year 2001.”http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/2004155.pdf

8. Alterman, Eric. 2003. What Liberal Media? The Truth about Bias and the News. Basic Books: New York.

9. CNN.com. 2004. “Election Results: America Votes 2004.”http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/...results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

10. Thompson, Nicholas. July/August 2003. “Science Friction: The Growing—and Dangerous—Divide Between Scientists and the GOP.” Washington Monthly.http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0307.thompson.html

David Hyde, Sociology Professor at South Puget Sound Community College, at 1:25 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Dear Student

Marxism and its eastern cousins Marxism-Leninism and Marxism-Leninism-Mao-Zedong- Thought are fantasies of brute power dressed up as “serious” scientific theory. Everywhere the theory was tested during the 20th century (and the laboratory was global) the grand result was omniscent secret police, dictatorship of one party, hard-labor and re-education camps for dissenting intellectuals, and — in the truly glorious stages — carefully calculated mass murder of entire classes of human beings.

Dear Student, you are off to a great start in your perception of how this game functions at a post-Cold War academic level; do not be deceived into playing the game of “disprove my arcane theory based the Gramsci dialectic” (or whatever) — it is all the product of the God that failed, that brought unprecedented misery and dehumanization to vast swaths of a tortured century.

But be on the lookout as the western apologists for violent Islamism begin transferring their serious theoretics from one failed God to another. That is the challenge facing us in the current century.

My best to you on your journey.

Patrick, at 1:25 pm EST on March 20, 2006

“Cry Me a River”

I very much appreciate the honesty of the “Student” (Why not sign your name?) who wrote “Cry Me a River.” Clearly, this student’s cultural vision is of a system of higher education that filters out all critical thinking—especially analyses of about structural inequality. How is this end to be achieved? Promote corporate-style universities where the majority of the teaching is done by adjuncts (for example, National University in California) and see to it that critical teachers “get fired.” That is just what happened to me.

In January 2006, I was teaching a 300-level online course entitled “Cultural Diversity.” I was required to teach the course using Rothenberg’s _Race, Class, and Gender in the U.S._. The perspective of the text is equality. Consequently, students were encouraged to evaluate Republican policies and their consequences from this perspective.

One of my students felt his/her Republican values were being demeaned and complained to my Dean, Alice Sharper. Dean Sharper called me in mid-January and complained about the political content of the course. I assured her that (1) my focus on structural inequality was consistent with the pedagogy of the text which NU required me to use, (2) that there was social-scientific evidence for the text’s conclusions, and (3) that the text’s focus on structural inequality was being augmented by a highly-respected ethical perspective, namely, that found in Reinhold Niebuhr’s _Moral Man and Immoral Society_.

Subsequently, Dean Sharper required me to submit my final grades to her. Then, in a February email, Dean Sharper informed that she had removed me from the future NU courses which I was scheduled to teach. The removal was Kafkaesque. The Dean sent me a one-sentence email that said I had been “unstaffed"; she did not provide a substantive explanation for my removal.

Fortunately, NU has a grievance policy for Part-Time Faculty. However, when I exercised my rights and asked for clarification about why I was fired, the Vice President of Academic Affairs (not Dean Sharper) responded that I had no right to an appeal, because I was not removed “for cause.” Of course, this is illogical. If I was not removed for cause, then why was I removed? This question has been posed to Dean Sharper in several emails, and she refuses to answer. All I know is that, in our brief phone conversation about the complaints by a Republican student, the Dean made it clear that, because they might be offended, it is improper to ask Republican students to analyze contemporary politics from the perspective of equality.

The question of Marxism vs. anti-Marxism is a canard. The real question is whether student-"consumers” have an obligation to engage critical pedagogies which deviate from the priggish ideologies of dominant political authority. My experiences offer one institution’s answer.

The author of “Cry Me a River” celebrates the fact that I have no rights and can be easily fired. I am glad that someone is happy. My family is devastated by the fact that, after 20 years of college-level teaching, I am unemployed.

R. Leck, former NU employee, at 1:25 pm EST on March 20, 2006

1. >Therefore, I am curious as to know why a Marxist is an “ideological dinosaur."<

Compare standards of living in -

North Korea vs. South Korea Vietnam vs. Japan Cuba vs. Chile (yeah, I know, it has a socialist party in power now) Former East Germany vs. Former West Germany Socialist Australia vs. non socialist AustraliaUSSR vs. take your pick

I’ll save anybody the trouble of replying “but, it wasn’t pure Marxism!” and just ask where pure Marxism worked.

“When a professor enters a class and tells the assembled multitude that he is “a Marxist, and will be teaching this class from a Marxist perspective,” students have every right...”

2. Yeah, a kid can just switch classes. If you only have a choice between Marxist profs and liberal profs, you’re missing out on a lot. . . no really. Toss the merits of conservative intellectual arguments out the window for second — Colleges claim to value diverse perspectives when it comes to making the case for Affirmative Action. It is because of the lack of intellectual diversity in cases like this, that conservative don’t buy that argument.

WAL, at 1:25 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Groucho Marxism

The research shows that university professors are largely ideologically out-of-touch with both students and their partents. Most profs erroneously and smugly assume this is because they are smarter than either of these groups. They are no different that alley cats and turtles — all creatures of their environment. The world of academia does not vaguely resemble that of their customers. What better philosophy than Marxism to relationize a world where leaders have little power and workers call their own shots? Much like the French students, they will shortly be ushered into the real world, where all pigs really are created equal.

Sillyone, at 1:40 pm EST on March 20, 2006

read early marx

read early marx and what you will find is social science that is more truly democratic in its perspective than our current president bush... peoply need to lose their monolithic and stereotypical views of marxist social science — it’s just a mode of analysis like many others...

jeff, at 1:40 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Tone?

R. Leck,

I don’t know why you were fired. Next time, perhaps you should try teaching at a college that doesn’t have a “required reading list” decided upon by the Dean, or a union, or anyone other than the individual faculty members.

Did the student approach you with her complaints before taking them to the Dean? There are ways to keep conflicts from escalating if you listen to your students the first time around.

Did you use the same tone with the Dean as in your e-mail response? I am sure that must have gone over very well.

With 20 years of experience, I’m sure you can find other opportunities. Good luck.

Student, at 2:05 pm EST on March 20, 2006

The Tom Wolfe Error

Just a note to say that postmodernism as exemplified by, say, deconstructionism is not Marxist. The demiurge behind postmodernism seems to be to carve out new intellectual (or lack of it) territory by simultaneously attacking both Marxism and western positivism. Wolfe made the same error as Patrick in one of his later essays. Generally, p-m’s hate Marxism, considering it a totalizing philosphy.

Henry Vandenburgh, at 2:05 pm EST on March 20, 2006

I usually begin my history class informing my students that everybody has their own biases and political views that influence what they say and don’t say. My presentation of history is flavored by my personal interests and ideology despite efforts to be as objective as possible. I require my students to complete several written assignments that require them to critically think about an issue and then clearly communicate their position and why they have reached that conclusion. They are always trying to figure out what my personal view is thinking that if they parrot me they will get a better grade. I tend to be very conservative in many areas, but I’m sure I have many students who think I a radical liberal. I do think that profs can unduly put pressure on students to conform or at least keep silent. As a TA I listened to profs make very specific political and religious comments that seemed to quash classroom discussion. In one setting several professors ridiculed the religious beliefs of a preacher who appears on TV regularly. Personally I do not agree with this preacher, but I would not demean this man’s beliefs in public. As a student and a TA, especially while pursuing my Phd. I have had the fear that the faculty would discover I was a conservative religious person.

steve, at 3:05 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Marx and Alice in the Classroom

I get so amused reading the hang-wringing and whining that accompanies the pious sanctimony of the Marxists, neo-Marxists, and paleo-Marxists here.

All this airy talk about “equality” is just so much swill. The classic, core contradiction in American society has been and will likely always be the clash between struggling towards an equality of opportunity while recognizing that there will always be an inequality of outcomes.

Isolated, detached academics can preen, prance and pontificate all they want in favor of equality of outcomes but it will never happen in our lifetimes.

Instead of wasting time on the musty, indecipherable, outdated silliness of Marx and his somber university disciples, check out the solid, common sense analyses of Aaron Wildavsky, *The Rise of Radical Egalitarianism*(American University Press, 1991), and John Kekes, *The Illusions of Egalitarianism.* (Cornell University Press, 2003).

Both should be required readings in any freshmen orientation courses.

Chuck, at 4:20 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Blah, blah, blah, blah

What fun. The article’s topic is bias in student evaluations of faculty. The discussion consists mostly of blowhards hollering about everything but the topic. You set a swell example for young people, comrades.

If it does anything, the article provides one more argument against student evaluations. But the best argument I’ve heard lately came from the mouth of a student. The school where I work did evaluations last week. One of my students grumbled about evaluating a teacher so far before the end of the semester. “I hate to evaluate a teacher until I’m pretty sure what my final grade will be,” he said.

Indoctrination? Please. I wish I could indoctrinate more students to do the damn homework. Smart students figure out how the game is played: Tell the teacher whatever he or she wants to hear. The teacher will applaud the student’s sound reasoning and superior critical thinking skills. It worked for me back in the 1970s, and I doubt the professorial ego has shrunk since then.

Bill Melater, a teacher tired of hot air, at 4:20 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Whoa, everyone be serious

First off why is it that if someone says they are conservative they are instantly labeled as closed minded by people who claim to be open minded? I mean I consider myself to be very open minded as well as conservative. I have many liberal friends and would argue with some degree of anger that they are the least open minded people I know, yet claim to be on some other level of ability to be open minded.

Anyway, I would agree that even as a history major, a field which you might think would be a little more even between liberal and conservative, infact is still overwellmingly liberal. Now I would also argue that just because a majority are liberal does not mean that what they are teaching is liberalized. I think most of my classes would be tought the same way. That being said the extreme liberal professors I have had were undeniably spun in a liberal light. Example: My History of Mexico class, which I took last quarter, my professor took the Spanish conquest of Mexico to a place I honestly had never thought of. Now while this was good from the fact that it opened my eyes to a new perspective as well as made me look at how women were effected during this period, she left out major factors of the conquest.

It seems to me what is needed is balance. Balance not just between liberal and conservative, but all views. Include Marxism, include extremist Islamic views, this would only aid in creating a much more well rounded and better educated student.

That being said the answer is most DEFFINETLY NOT to have a majority of in this case liberal teachers or any other ideology, because as much as one person claims to be open minded they are still going to have their own opinions and will still even if unknowingly share those ideas with their peers and students, and I am not saying that that is a bad thing, I am saying that since that will occur students need to be exposed to as many diffrent ideologies as possible.

-Mike

Michael, Student at The OSU, at 4:20 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Is bias the problem?

Besides the platitudinous observation that it is not one’s bias that counts, it is what one does about it (or what it does to you); bias is not to be avoided but reflected upon.A particular problem is the bias that passes for denotation.

For example, to paraphrase Russell Baker, who pointed out so long ago, the Press will refer to Castro as ‘Marxist President Fidel Castro said today...’but the Press does not say ‘Capitalist President George W. Bush said today....’

tlon7, former high IQ moron, at 4:20 pm EST on March 20, 2006

I am fairly moderate and even ambivalent person politically — on the one hand I am inclined to think that people have a kind of libertarian free will that makes them accountable for what they do, but on the other hand I am sensitive to the fact that things like Alzheimer’s disease strongly suggest that our mental activity (judgments about what it is reasonable to do, our volitions, etc., and the ideas that occur to us at a given moment [and that we can’t freely will ourselves to have unless we already have them, in which case we aren’t _willing_ ourselves to have them]) is dependent upon and guided by the workings in our brain, which would of course lessen our libertarian freedom. (There are lots of related arguments to this effect — for example that our minds move with us from place to place, and so must be properties of the brain if only physical things can move.)

I want to add that my own experience confirms the results of the view to which the author refers. My own department is very mixed politically, with libertarians and also folks who would be seen as nearer the left end of the spectrum. And there are also folks who are conservative on social issues, but to the extent that they ground their view in a religious text they do not see it as somehow incumbent upon all of us to accept it, when it reflects the view that sometimes one person is three or that the sun moves around the earth or that that the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is three (and not pi), and when acceptance of the text as authoritative is a matter of profound faith.

I am sure that there are some unprofessional folks out there who punish their students for disagreeing with them. But I have never in my life encountered this as a professor or student. Instead a prof. would thrive off of the disagreement and appreciate the contribution. Am I just lucky? One would have to be totally unprofessional to treat a student in the way that apparently almost all profs. are treating them (acc. to the loud but not numerous complaints). Do the complaining students just get upset when they hear views with which they disagree — do they offer opposing arguments, or do they just get bitter and tune out? Of course in some courses folks will have to entertain ideas that are not already their own and to critically engage them, but that can’t in itself be offensive or objectionable to the student, because otherwise it’s not clear how a student would ever get any new information. I can only conclude (as I am sure have many others) that there are ideologues who like that academia has been biased a certain way historically (where this bias is grounded in... what?), and are now being super-loud when there are counters that bias. It only takes a few such cases to get highlighted on FOX National News before it seems that there is a pervasive national phenomenon here.

Is the objection on the table that some profs. have non-conservative views? Or is it that they force their students to accept these views?

PhilosophyProf, at 7:00 pm EST on March 20, 2006

In my 30 plus years of university teaching experience, I’ve found that it is almost always possible both to present various ideological takes on current issues and to conduct classroom discussions in which students’ views are respected. I am a political scientist who teaches mostly political theory, along with a miscellany of other political science courses.

Here’s how I do it. I’ll present, for example, liberal and conservative views on abortion by making as clear as possible the premises from which each view operates, and how arguments are constructed. I’ve seldom had students object to these formulations, and, more positively, have enjoyed, over the years, having students say to me things like “I never really understood why conservatives (or liberals) think X, and now I do.”

Here’s a quick summary of how my approach works: Whether we’re studying liberalism, conservatism, fascism, postmodernisms, or, for that matter, Islamic political thought, I do something like this.

1. Identify presuppositions: what do believers in the view under examination take for granted?

2. Identify intentions: what do bellievers in a particular point of view intend to accomplish?

3. “Arguments:” what do believers in a particular point of view actually say (and what counts as acceptable evidence, explanations, etc.?)

4. Implications: what are the implications of a particular point of view?

For intro level courses, I may do this quite didactically. For upper level courses, I build it into my coverage of substantive matters.

So, when I cover Marx and Marxism, as I do in several courses, I provide (1) intellectual and political history of Marx and Marxism—at various levels, depending on the level of the course; (2) explain how and why Marxism became such an important intellectual force in much of the world by giving examples of Marxist analysis (One of my favorites is to look at the production of the romantic piano literature in its cultural context.); (3)sort out various recent and contemporary versions of Marxism. I have never had a student complain that I was “teaching Marxism” if by this we mean attempting to indoctrinate students.

And now I get to an unpleasant point. I have colleagues who present Marxist analyses as simple matters of fact, and who do not delve into presuppositions and the like. And this, I think, is what some students have in mind when they wail about their horrible Marxist professors.

Another unpleasant point: I do think that there is in our society at the present time a growing belief that any criticism of fundamental American institutions and beliefs is inherently subversive and unacceptable. Such subversion is assumed to be the aim of professors who present, however carefully, any point of view widely regarded as containing criticisms of a fundamental sort. I note that conservative students and those who often promote or support these students don’t bother to get upset at the criticisms of American society that could be levelled with ease from the perspectives of, say, Thomism or Platonism.

None of us in the teaching profession have any remedies for students who expect a college education to consist in nothing but a mix of vocational training and celebrations of all conventional opinions.

James Ward, at 9:05 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Another 2,000 words not required

Per the oft-quoted American Indian saying, “telling the truth does not require many words.”

As noted in the K-12 gay rights matter — a serious problem exists. Furr, Churchill, Shortell, Ayers, Dohrn — need anymore? Or L. Summers, R.I.P.? Denying there’s a problem does NOT make it go away; it only makes your opponents more determined.

After a lifetime of TV, students are cynical. They can spot political blow-hards like Furr and Churchill in seconds. They also know when the instructor is trying to teach, to bring about learning with knowledge scope and scale.

If you’re the latter — great.

If you’re the former — you have no one to blame but yourself for your problems. You want to be a politician — quit and run for political office. Don’t politic on the backs of others — try show some courage.

R.A.S., at 9:35 pm EST on March 20, 2006

Get to the point

Why must some people use the comments section to write and post their own articles, many of which are longer than the original? If you want to write articles, go join the contributing staff. Otherwise, say your piece and be done!

Like so:

Students are biased. Professors are biased. Let’s call the whole thing off!

Addendum:

Your professor’s bias is irrelevant to your ability to read, discuss, understand, and learn in college. You’re a grownup, not an impressionable kid (that’s the mutual expectation, right?). You can still get an ‘A’ from a professor that you disagree with (yeah, you can). You aren’t “missing” anything by not having your views reflected in the classroom, unless, sadly, all of your education takes place in a classroom (read something or watch something or talk to someone...else). No one owes you a “balanced” (i.e. apolitical) perspective in any conversation, debate, or dialogue—that’s a myth devised by ideologues on both sides. Balance your own perspectives (or try...good luck).

Now, stop whining already and go learn something!

Jack Trades, at 10:30 pm EST on March 20, 2006

What is our goal?

This is a great thread, thanks for all the posts. I’ve been thinking about this issue in anticipation of giving a paper this week on this debate, and while a number of points have been addressed quite well by previous posts, the one question I have not seen adequately answered (or really, even asked) is “what is it exactly that professors are supposed to be doing in the classroom?” What is their goal?

It strikes me that there are two models. In the first, professors — who have devoted their lives to surveying all the research on a topic, synthesizing it, exploring new questions in their own research and, from all of that, reaching their own conclusions and viewpoints — should endeavour to present “the truth” as they best understand it from their informed perspective to those students who are uninformed. The rationale for this model is simple — the most efficient way to convey knowledge is that those with the most information should structure knowledge transfer in such a way that the maximum insight is gained in the minimum time. The argument against is also simple — as Bayes Rule suggests, data alone do not generate beliefs from a vacuum, but only update our prior beliefs. If students and professors have differing, subject beliefs regarding the truth then their “posterior” beliefs (after consuming all available data) will also differ. So “whose truth” is being taught is an issue if professors and students differ in their ideologies (which, the data suggests, they generally do).

The second model is the “representative data transfer.” In this case the role of the professor is not to “teach the truth” as he/she sees it, but simply to condense the available scholarship on a subject to a manageable subset which *has the same general attributes” (i.e., distribution of viewpoints) as the original population of literature. So, for example, biology professors might present research on intelligent design (to the extent there is any) even if they thought it was unscientific bunk themselves, based on their own professional understanding. (They could attempt to present their own views — that ID is unscientific inasmuch as it is not falsifiable, but that would require an understanding of Popper, etc. which the students might not have had, or have time to learn in a biology class). The advantage is that professors’ own subjective beliefs are removed from the knowledge transmission, so no “bias” can exist. The cost, however, is just that — all the wisdom that students’ are presumably paying for in their exorbitant tuitions is being disregarded. In this model, all the student really needs from the professor is a syllabus, and an exam to give them the credentialling stamp they need in the job market to prove they read through it.

For all its faults, I still favor the first model, and my guess is that the vast majority of students would as well. I teach macroeconomics, which can be pretty boring if you don’t relate it to current economic policy — which is inherently political (think social security reform, tax cuts, Iraq war, etc.). While I deliver numerous critiques against Bush administration policies, the fact that my complaints are centered on his policies and the fact that my complaint is that most of them (the economic and foreign policies anyway) are in direct of violation of most “conservative principles” (Clinton was much more conservative than Bush on trade, fiscal discipline and entitlement spending) has kept me from running into any ideological snit fits with my (largely Republican) students. Nevertheless, two of my much more liberal colleagues also find our (conservative) students respond well to them sharing their own persepctives. One, a Marxist, is quite popular and is I guarantee you no “dinosaur” — I may not subscribe to his paradigm, but he is fun to debate, and he usually wins! My other colleague saves most of his personal ideology for our blog. But here is an excerpt from a student commenting on one of his anti-Bush diatribes which he reserved for our blog (www.gecon.blogspot.com). I think it says it all:

“Professor, i applaud your showing of anger. Obviously we have differing views on many subjects, but i do enjoy the opposition. I feel however that you hold back too much in class on your oppinion. It would’ve made for some interesting debates if you were so adamant in class.”

Mark H, at 10:20 am EST on March 21, 2006

bias in the classroom

Last week, the student newspaper here at Maryland reported an incident in which a professor in a class on plant biology took time off from the topic to launch into a rant against Bush and the Iraq War. There followed a slide presentation, in which Bush appeared as a monkey.

Again—this was a course on plant biology, and the professor’s expertise is in that topic (plant biology), and that specific expertise is what gives that faculty-member the right to teach students. To teach...um...plant biology.

Does anyone on this thread care to defend this incident? No one denies it happened. Most importantly, one has to wonder at the general atmosphere on campus that would allow a faculty-member to believe that he could get away with such unprofessional behavior in a classroom. Which he has.

Arthur Eckstein, professor at U of Maryland

art eckstein, professor at U of Maryland, at 1:00 pm EST on March 21, 2006

The Bush-bashing incident is indeed disgusting (as described), but it’s a tricky bit of rhetoric to say that the prof. got away with it because of the general climate on campus and not because of a perhaps necessary evil of the tenure system, also an inexcusably weak dean who needs to take action no matter how unpleasant.

PhilosophyProf, at 2:30 pm EST on March 21, 2006

No, Mr. Eckstein, I it would be irresponsible to defend (or condemn) such an incident based only on a newspaper report. Besides the general credibility of the article, there are a few open questions: 1) how long was spend doing the “bashing”; and 2) was any member of the die-hard GOP indoctrinated into hating Bush. Personally, I think more time is wasted discussing sports, which, in my opinion have no place at all in higher education, but to many politics is the same sort of frivolous activity as sports.

Larry, at 4:20 pm EST on March 21, 2006

close reading of UMaryland article

The above comment about the biology prof. may be yet another example of pernicious rhetoric. I just went to the student newspaper article — at http://www.diamondbackonline.com/...006/03/16/44195576ad889?in_archive=1.

The author above says that the professor took time out from the class to go on a tirade against Bush, and also showed a Bush-as-a-monkey slide. The article ACTUALLY says that it was a teacher who did this, and from the e-mail responses to the article (see response #2), it appears that the teacher was a TA and not a prof. Furthermore, the UM article at most suggests that what happened was that the teacher, in the midst of a slide show, presented a slide against Bush and made a negative comment. So, from the article it looks like what happened is that a TA very inappropriately took a few moments in class to make a joke about Bush, but the above author says that a professor took a segment of class time to do some Bush-bashing against Iraq (and Iraq isn’t mentioned in the article) and also showed a Bush-monkey slide.

There is no question that what the TA did was extremely inappropriate and that the TA should be disciplined, but (if I have picked out the right article above) then what we have here is a nasty and pernicious exaggeration from “a T.A. shows a slide making fun of Bush” to “A professor is using portions of class time to bash Bush’s politics, and the university is generally backing this,” with the suggestion that it’s also going on in the professoriate generally. How dare you.

PhilosophyProf, at 7:25 pm EST on March 21, 2006

De facto, tired of paying for crap

Lar .. yes, this has been beaten to death .. IMHO, reasonable persons (not lawyers or academics) would say, de facto, the academy is the largest contributor to one of two major political parties.

Further, the other major political party — which pays for 50% of academia — doesn’t find amusing, the “Bush Is An Idiot” in-class media. So, they’re doing something about it — trying to control their share of the funding.

Does anyone think, if the roles were reversed, the Democrats wouldn’t do the same thing? Heck, look what happened to Larry Summers — and he was a Clinton Democrat.

There’s no tenure for academic funding. Any time, those funds can be reduced or zero’ed. So pontificate and whine until 2468 AD — you don’t control the money train and never will.

R.A.S., at 7:30 pm EST on March 21, 2006

Bias

Dear Larry—

This issue is not whether the faculty-member who perpetrated this incident was successful at the political indoctrination of students. The issue is that he interrupted a class on plant biology, for a significant length of time, to ATTEMPT it. That is what constitutes the unprofessional conduct. Whether he was successful or not is immaterial.

Larry, you also appear to want to deny the story. Well, of course, that is certainly one way to deal with inconvenient information. So far, no one at the University has denied the story.

AE

art eckstein, at 7:30 pm EST on March 21, 2006

But is the problem real?

It’s true that many undergraduates would rather have their convictions confirmed than be challenged to think. It’s true that many of them try to guess what their professor thinks, hoping that by voicing the similar opinions, they will improve their grades. (These tend not to be A students.) And once every few years, I do see an instance of faculty rating a student, or a junior colleague, slightly higher than they otherwise might because they agree with them politically. (These faculty do not tend to publish in competitive journals.)

Generally speaking, though, the kind of indoctrination and punishing-for-beliefs some members of the public seem to believe happens in universities, just doesn’t. There is too much basic work to do, for one thing, and not much time for politics and ‘indoctrination’. More importantly, indoctrination, ‘ideology’, etc. aren’t what scholarship are about!

Academics are mainly interested in rational inquiry. This is what universities are for, and most faculty, whatever their politics, know this. They are at the university for that reason.

So, thank you, Mark Grimsley, for your post. You say what most well trained academics would say on the question of that hypothetical Marxist professor. I’m quoting you, since the thread has gotten so long.

Here’s Grimsley speaking, folks:’But let’s say a professor did decide to teach from an explicitly Marxist perspective, and said as much. What’s the problem here? To begin, it’s truth in advertising—students understand clearly what they’re getting into. Second, Marxism is one of the most important ideological and intellectual movements of the past century and a half, and any educated person should have some exposure to it. Third, the bankruptcy of the Marxist project as a political revolutionary movement doesn’t detract from the potential value of Marxist analysis, particularly given how greatly that analysis has grown in sophistication and nuance over the decades. Fourth, being exposed to an idea doesn’t mean being asked to agree with it. And finally, no instructor ever enters a classroom without some kind of intellectual framework that has implicit if not overt political implications. I myself am a military historian working in what usually gets tagged as a “traditional” field, and I know for a fact we have our full share of political assumptions, most of them simply smuggled into the discourse.’

Professor Zero, at 7:30 pm EST on March 21, 2006

bias

Dear Professor Zero,

I happen to think there is much validity in Realism and international-systems theory (balance of power, etc) as an explanation of international politics. But if I taught a course that was ONLY that sort of theory, and analyzed EVERY historical interaction of states that way, and EXCLUDED all alternative explanations—I do not believe such a course would be intellectually valid. I do not think it would be intellectually valid even if I DID say explicitly at the beginning (like our hypothetical Marxist) that this was the approach I was going to take, and only this approach, because I thought it was the Truth. This is because any course and any instructor of any course must offer students alternative explanations of events, in order to train them overtly in critical thinking. To hope instead that the students will somehow develope “critical thinking” simply if they get tired of having a theory stuffed down their throats by an irresponsible instructor is not pedagogically sound.

Yet all over the country such conduct occurs. One has only to look at the mission statement, say, of the Women’s Studies Program at Kansas State, where the entire program is based on one philosophy and one philosophy only, and the only way for an undergraduate to get a degree is to have absorbed that philosophy. Opposition to that philosophy will not help you towards a degree. Of course, they ARE overt about it. Does that make it right?

AE

arthur eckstein, at 8:15 pm EST on March 21, 2006

Whining and Rudeness

‘Student’ says:

‘It’s people like you who get fired from your lowly adjunct jobs for shooting off your mouth about how students should “go work for daddy.”’

How does ’student’ know that Huntly, to whom he directs this, is an adjunct...or a faculty member of any kind? Who does ’student’ think he is to be speaking this way? Does ’student’ support him/herself? Does s/he support anyone else? How are his/her grades?S/he doesn’t seem to write too well, or think too clearly.

In this thread, the angry, whining tone is taken by those who accuse faculty of ‘whining’ (or of having ‘problems’). I don’t find it in the article itself, or in the words of the faculty members who have written in.

Several of those who’ve written in to complain about the terrible, liberal professors do not seem to have actually read the article, nor understood the thread.

Leslie Bary, at 8:15 pm EST on March 21, 2006

Dear Philosophy Prof—

I’d be glad to retract my story about the professor interrupting his class for the anti-Bush tirade if it was a t.a. who interrupted HIS class for the anti-Bush tirade. But email #2 in the response to the article in the student newspaper doesn’t offer proof that it was, for it’s just a hypothetical—"if a t.a in a biology class, etc.". The term used in the original article was not t.a. but “teacher", which normally means professor, and since the witness said students cheered the tirade and the slide, it is easy to assume that this occurred in lecture, because it’s hard to imagine such a scene, with cheering happening in a t.a. section. In addition, the entire article is about professors and their conduct, not t.a.’s and their conduct. I may be wrong that it was a professor, and I will freely acknowledge it if I was wrong, but email #2 on your list doesn’t prove it, and at the moment a lot of circumstantial evidence suggests the opposite. Again, if that is wrong, I will acknowledge it.

AE

art eckstein, at 8:45 pm EST on March 21, 2006

The importance of the anecdote

My point was of course not that it WAS a TA or that e-mail#2 proved it but that your posting represented the matter as very definitive, when there is almost nothing that can be gleaned from the UM article with any confidence. What is so upsetting and maddening about this kind of thing is that the uncritically-minded read the post or hear about the case and then add it to their mountainous collection of anedotes/evidence of the takeover of the university by the leftists, when many of us at the university wonder how much of the rest of the evidence is equally spurious. Esp. given that we live in a hurried time of newsbites and shorter and shorter attention spans, such evidence will be examined less often and taken as fact by anyone already so inclined. Then the discussion is over. There certainly are individuals who are monsters, but this happens everywhere (in the catholic church, in democratic and republican administrations, in the stands at the little league game, etc.), and is not thereby representative of each institution.

PhilosophyProf, at 9:50 pm EST on March 21, 2006

Dear Philosophy Prof,

You say nothing can be known with any confidence about the incident on the basis of the student newspaper article. I think that’s far too pessimistic—we know the incident occurred,that some students cheered the politics, while others were unhappy about either the politics or the political interruption of instruction on plant biology. That’s pretty signficant of bad pegagogy.

And, frankly, the incident is hardly unique. I personally witnessed a prominent speaker from another university, who was paid a nice honorarium ($1000) to lecture here about the nature of the Spanish empire in the Americas, interrupt her lecture to launch into a lengthy attack on the Iraq War instead. At least she was a historian (of colonial Latin America...), not a plant biologist. People know they can get away with this sort of behavior.

I know you don’t like anecdotes, but here’s another one: We had another very prominent academic spend her entire lecture on Bush’s presidential rhetoric—how very aggressive and imperialist it was. When I suggested to her that she might want to compare that rhetoric with, say, the tropes we find in Saddam’s rhetoric, or Zarqawi’s rhetoric, or Bin Ladin’s rhetoric, in order to establish a clearer context regarding the rhetoric of all the leaders who were involved in this war, her answer was that she didn’t have the time to study the others I mentioned. She, too, got a $1,000 honorarium for her “scholarly lecture"—which in fact was just an egocentric verbal discharge of her enraged politics. No foul was called.

AE

art eckstein, at 10:35 pm EST on March 21, 2006

Scholarship, scope, focus

Art, Women’s Studies is a cross-disciplinary field, not a philosophy. There are a lot of different feminist theories. If you take courses in WS, you’ll be exposed to a lot of different topics and approaches. It’s a bit like other majors, really: major in English, and yup, you will have to take a lot of courses with professors who think language and literature are important. Biologists may be the worst, since they tend to believe in evolution. They think there is a scientific basis for this belief, and they’ll try to convince you of it, too!

On ‘balance’ and scope in lectures: a lecture is only so many minutes long. I cannot cover, for instance, all forms of poetry in a lecture for the sake of ‘balance’. I may have to concentrate on one author. I could also concentrate on a single form, such as the sonnet, or poetry written in a single year, say 1901, or poetry written in a single country. I’ll still have to select materials and examples. It just isn’t possible for one person to cover everything, all at once. Or should I assign you a 1001-page paper every week, so you can try?

;-)

Professor Zero, at 4:25 am EST on March 22, 2006

Instructors have an obligation to be unbiased

The canard, advanced in several places above, that declared biases excuse the bias, is absolutely ridiculous and outrageous. The fact that alleged college instructors could believe and seriously propose such a thing only indicates how bad the problem in academia is.

College education, as opposed to professional training, is liberal education, i.e., education that frees the mind to think critically, deeply, wisely, well, and with the relevant facts. Biased teaching, whether acknowledged or not, has the effect of indoctrinating students rather than getting them to think deeply for themselves. The fact that students will rightly rebel against such treatment, and will “push back” and thereby learn some rudiments of critical thinking, does not excuse the practice. The function of the instructor is not to give students something to push back against. It is to challenge and deepen every perspective on the subject. For those who do not push back, you succeed in actually indoctrinating them—rather than doing what you are paid to do, namely, provide them with a liberal education.

Former College Teacher, at 4:25 am EST on March 22, 2006

When details are not given, credibility decreases

RAS, Quite frankly, I don’t think that academics have that much disposable income to donate to either political party (and I only vote for relatives if they are running for office). Most seem to be scraping for enough money to make their car payments, yet alone max out on contributions to a candiate or a Pac.

I don’t really understand what the hoopla is about. I never belonged to a political party, but if I did, I would find it quite silly that someone thinks that they could convince others by saying “Bush is an idiot.” I mean, come on, is that the best one can do?

Quite frankly, I think that belonging to a political party, much less having an emotional connection to one is quite immature. Real people develop relationships with decision-makers, not cheer like it is a baseball game.

Professor Ekstein, I am not denying or confirming the story. I don’t know enough to form an opinion. But, I would like to know who was really hurt by it (and if it really happened.) In particular, I would like to know the name of the professor (if this can’t be provided, I will conclude that the story is made up) and the date it happened. Somehow, because no name is given, and people are protesting quite a bit, I don’t think we are getting the whole story. But, unlike the tales of woe regarding the FBI and students, I care even less about this.

Larry, at 4:25 am EST on March 22, 2006

De-biasing college education: out-source

These English faculty in India —

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07...&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

stick to frickin’ basics and leave the frickin’ politics to politicians.

Along that vein on a go-forward basis, from Princeton’s Alan Blinder in the current “Foreign Affairs” —

” .. As college tuition grows ever more expensive, cheap electronic delivery will start looking more and more sensible, if not imperative.”

Gosh. Could biology be taught from India? Is Grover Furr, Uncle Joe Stalin’s best friend? Of course it can, and students carrying $30,000 in student loan debt will be watching with great interest.

R.A.S., at 4:25 am EST on March 22, 2006

Let’s get academic!

College Teacher, a reasoned opinion isn’t the same thing as a bias. Professors are hired precisely because they have the former.

R.A.S., ‘the basics’ (e.g. remedial English) aren’t what a university education is for: there are academic entrance requirements.

On an earlier comment, about the Spanish conquest and Iraq—it’s a point commonly made, sometimes for purposes of engaging audience by drawing a parallel with something current, and sometimes to explore the comparison, which does in fact have some merit.

Chill, will ya? There is some very lucid commentary above, by professors from various points on the political spectrum. The shrillness and hysteria don’t seem to come from the actual professoriat.

Leslie Bary, at 10:25 am EST on March 22, 2006

Lar: here’s the money list

” .. RAS, Quite frankly, I don’t think that academics have that much disposable income ..”

Not just dollars in politics, ol’ Lar. Foot soldiers count, too.

As to the politicians who academics support —

John Kerry

http://www.publicintegrity.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=4&act=cp

Howard Dean

http://www.publicintegrity.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=8&act=cp

The guttersnipes can come out now and whine about how they’re forced to teach under terrible conditions, how Communism would be better private ownership, etc. Anything but dealing with facts and hard data.

R.A.S., at 10:25 am EST on March 22, 2006

1. The plant biology incident at U of M—no one denies that this happened except people on this blog. The name of the professor wasn’t given in the article. I am assuming it was a professor because that was the topic of the story in the student newspaper—professors’ behavior in class—and because the term (say) “teaching assistant” never appeared in the story. 2. My other two anecdotes I personally eye-witnessed and they occurred in 2004. 3. There may be a number of different types of feminist theory, yes, but frankly that hardly makes for true intellectual diversity being offered students. The WS Program at KSU is not a department not of WS but is explicit that it is a dept of feminist studies. You will not graduate unless you sign on to the basic paradigm. You will not graduate if you are interested in WS but oppose the basic paradigm. This is the same as saying that there are a number of different kinds of Marxist theories, but here in our Dept of Marxist Studies you have to convince us faculty that you believe in SOME kind of Marxism in order to get your degree in Marxist Studies. Would that be intellectually valid pedagogy? 4. I totally agree that getting your bias out in the open at the beginning of a course does NOT excuse you from then ramming your bias down students’ throats lecture after lecture. 5. The obligation to provide students with alternative explanations (yes, perhaps not in a one lecture, but definitely overall in a course): if I teach international-systems theory as an explanation for state expansion, I think I also have a positive OBLIGATION to teach the alternative explanations for state explansion which are widely asserted (such as unit-attribute theory), and I have a positive OBLIGATION to teach that alternatively with the strongest arguments for it possible. Not to do so would make the course pedagogically deficient, and would cheat the students of alternative explanations for them to think about. I am surprised that so many here do not see this.

Art

art eckstein, at 10:25 am EST on March 22, 2006

“College Teacher, a reasoned opinion isn’t the same thing as a bias. Professors are hired precisely because they have the former.” We are discussing a case, I thought, in which a Marxist professor says that he will be teaching the class from a Marxist perspective. I grant that the Marxist may have a (poorly) reasoned opinion, but if he avowedly is teaching the class from a Marxist perspective, it is very likely that he is biased for that reason.

College teachers should not

Former College Teacher, More on the obligation to be unbiased, at 12:00 pm EST on March 22, 2006

Art — but now we are not pointing to data but talking about interpretive background assumptions that tell us what the data are. You are assuming that in e-mail#2 the person is raising a hypothetical — “if a T.A. does such and such....” I was assuming that the person, because he/she was commenting on the particular case, was talking about the particular case, and so was referring to THE T.A. that was involved (and so revealing that it was a T.A.). I was also assuming that it would have been a total non-sequitor for the person to offer out of the blue a hypothetical about what a T.A. might do, and so I concluded that the person must have been talking about the actual case (and maybe was in the class). Any of our assumptions may be wrong here, but I thought I was using a principal of charity to read e-mail#2, as otherwise it just didn’t make sense.

On the question of whether or not anyone denies it, there is a contextual issue here. The story about the Bush-monkey incident takes up two or three lines in the middle of the paper, and so it’s not as though it’s a front-page story and that the university has not taken a stand on THAT. Also, it’s not clear from the article, and the sources, that the particular source has not been contacted, or if she refused to offer up the name of the teacher in question. If we don’t know these details, we don’t know if there has been an attempt to confirm or deny or what. Maybe there is another article on this, or maybe there is some discussion on campus, but my worry was that from the UM article in question it’s just hard to say anything specific.

PhilosophyProf, at 12:20 pm EST on March 22, 2006

Given your results — you’re easily replaceable

” .. ‘the basics’ (e.g. remedial English) aren’t what a university education ..”

Well, given what an abject failure the current academic regime has been —

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-01-19-college-tasks_x.htm

Could anything else, be any worse? Of course not. At least the tutors from India have been educated in English by the British!

” .. The shrillness and hysteria don’t seem to come from the actual professoriat. ..”

No, some of us have real jobs, and don’t have endless amounts of time to write 5,000-word diatribes, railing against the obvious — the obvious waste of money and resources that result from an echo chamber of one-sided political myopia.

If you can’t see the obvious — perhaps a 50% budget cut to your department’s budget will improve your vision, per Dr. Walter Williams.

R.A.S., at 3:55 pm EST on March 22, 2006

Funny, from GVSU

What’s funny about Patrick’s comments above is that he comes from Grand Valley State University, a place with a fairly right-wing economics philosophy, where a discussion of Marxism, outside the history department, would be highly surprising.

But none of this is the issue. The issue is the failure of the K-12 system in the US to challenge students. They are not exposed to debate or ideas until, bang, they walk into a college class and for the very first time in their privileged, segregated childhoods, are exposed to ideas different from their own. Of course the less intellectually agile among them are threatened.

Patrick, for example, is at a school surrounded by 90% white Protestant counties, a mono-culture of conservative Christianity in which all school internet is intensively censured and voting Democratic is considered wildly left-wing. Controversial topics do not arise in the schools that feed the university. There is no intellectual practice. No discourse. When they see this in college they panic, and call daddy who calls the minister, who calls James Dobson, who calls David Horowitz.

Until we expect more from our high schools, this will continue to be an unfortunate issue.

Ira, Michigan State University, at 4:10 am EST on March 24, 2006

IRA KNOWS ME?

Ira not only believes he knows me but can pinpoint my place of work by my first name and narrative style. Of course, he is about 400-miles off in determining my location and in another universe regarding the ethnic/political make-up of my district and my institution. But God bless him for trying. In any event, I am glad to have catalyzed this often-stimulating public debate, which was my only intention when I opened up the commentary about the article.

Patrick, at 5:50 pm EST on March 25, 2006

For some reason I have been excluded from this conversation the past two days, despite two attempts to reply to Philosophy Prof.

1. The student witness to the bashing Bush tirade from the teacher in a Plant Bio (!) class was quoted in the student newspaper, and she was named. I have no idea why Philos Prof would think she wasn’t directly contacted.

2. In addition, if you read her quote carefully, it looks like she is referring not to one unprofessional incident but to several unprofesisonal incidents that occurred over time.

Art

art eckstein, at 5:40 pm EST on March 26, 2006

Have You Been To GVSU

I’ve been to GVSU and I am about to Graduate. I’m a transfer and a Social Studies Major with a Poli-Sci and Pscyology dual Minor...I’ve taken about 30 classes at GVSU and I can think of about 2 or three classes where Marx or Marxism was not applied in class. This may seem normal for my course of study, but I’ve talked to nursing majors that say the same thing. This school might as well have a shrine to Marx. Many professors will not take your poli-sci writing seriously if you don’t include a serious tribute to, or review of Marxist political theory. I have one prof that seems to insist that if you do not give “due” to radical economic and political theory, you simply haven’t read the material. I’ve read so much Marx in this school I could teach on him. Maybe I’ve just taken all the wrong profs but somehow I think its just the college atmosphere and too much clout given to Berkley U.

Aaron, Student at GVSU, at 4:05 pm EST on March 27, 2006

Advertisement

 Jobs Related to The Real Bias in the Classroom

or search for jobs directly.

Specialists and Project Scientists, Department of Education
University of California, Irvine

The Department of Education at the University of California, Irvine anticipates openings for Junior, Assistant, Associate and ... see job

English Instructor
Waubonsee Community College

We open doors, spark imaginations, and enlighten lives through learning. see job

Teacher Education Coordinator, Faculty
Community College of Baltimore County

Job Responsibilities: Campus coordinator in Teacher Education is expected to: advise teacher education ... see job

Faculty, Economics
Lone Star College System

Located just north of Houston, Texas, our five campuses serve 1,400 square miles. Our student enrollment is nearly 50,000 in ... see job

Web Developer
Princeton University

Position Summary: This is a 5yr term position from date of hire. Development Information Systems provides IT ... see job

Director of Teacher Education
Brenau University

The Brenau University School of Education is seeking an Assistant/Associate Professor for a full-time, 12-month, leadership ... see job

Specialist Series — Beckman Laser Institute, Department of Surgery
University of California, Irvine

The School of Medicine, Department of Surgery, Beckman Laser Institute, located at the University of California, Irvine, is ... see job

FT 12 Mo Faculty — 2020A
Saint Louis University

Saint Louis University is a Jesuit Catholic University. Through teaching, research, health care and community service, Saint ... see job

Financial Services
Cazenovia College

Cazenovia College is an independent four-year coeducational college located in the lakefront historic village of Cazenovia, ...