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Overlooked Again -- Community Colleges and Science

June 2, 2006

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If the government and the academy are serious about increasing the participation of underrepresented groups in science and engineering, they should do more looking to -- and less overlooking of -- community colleges, experts say.

Several members of the Committee on Equal Opportunities in Science and Engineering, a Congressionally created group that advises the National Science Foundation, openly expressed surprise Thursday after presentations that shook their notions of community colleges.

Multiple members said that they had no idea that so many science and math bachelor’s and master’s degrees go to students who have taken at least one class at a community college.

According to NSF’s 2001 Survey of Recent College Graduates, 46 percent of bachelor’s and master’s degree recipients in 1999 and 2000 in “life and related sciences” had attended community colleges. Students who had taken a class or classes at a community college also accounted for 42 percent of computer and math sciences degrees at or above the bachelor's level, and 40 percent of engineering degrees.

And yet, community college administrators are often faced with incredulous colleagues when they talk about their successes and the need for articulation agreements. Charlene R. Nunley, the only community college official on the Secretary of Education’s Commission on the Future of Higher Education and president of Montgomery College, in Maryland, recalled a conversation with another commission member.

Nunley was telling Charles Vest, president emeritus of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, that “you all should be more open minded” about taking community college transfers. “Vest said, ‘well, they won’t graduate if they haven’t completed our lower division courses.'”

“That’s funny,” Nunley said she replied, “because I know of 11 graduates we sent to your institution.” Nunley added that “they just don’t know this story,” referring to the way top caliber students can and do come out of community colleges.

J.K. Haynes, dean of sciences and mathematics at Morehouse College and a member of the NSF advisory committee, said that he “used to be one of those skeptics that didn’t believe good students go to community college,” he said. He said that he started changing his mind years ago, and that, after Thursday’s discussion, “my transformation is complete.”

Not only can students with community colleges in their background compete, they can excel, according to presenters at the committee meeting.

Alfredo G. de los Santos Jr., a research professor at Arizona State University tracked students who entered ASU in fall 2001 with community college credit.

First-time freshmen at Arizona State in 2001 finished the year with an average grade point average of 2.74. Students who came to Arizona State from the Maricopa County Community College District with less than two full years of credit averaged a 2.57 in their first year. Upper-division transfers from the district averaged a 3.0 after a year at Arizona State.

De los Santos also looked at graduation rates. Of freshmen who came straight to Arizona State in 1996, 51.8 percent graduated by fall 2002, and they did it with a grade-point average of 3.20. Fifty-seven percent of students who were lower-division transfers from Maricopa in 1997 graduated by 2002, with an average GPA of 3.13. Among upper-division transfers from Maricopa who came in 1998, 70.8 percent graduated by 2002, and their average GPA was 3.28.

Nunley acknowledged that “many [students who start at community colleges] don’t have 1400 SATs. But they’re mentored, they have internship opportunities” and they can emerge as well or better prepared for a four-year institution than their peers.

The bigger hurdle than their academic background, Nunley said, is their financial background.

She said that Montgomery’s tuition is $3,500 a year, and that the college “turned away students last year because we didn’t have the aid.... You can probably count on the fact that they probably aren’t going to college at all.”

Government and business leaders have been all ablaze in recent months – stoked by the National Academies of Science “Rising Above the Gathering Storm” report, and Tom Friedman’s The World Is Flat – over what they cast as America’s impending economic showdown with India and China.

President Bush and powerful legislators have said that America must produce more science and engineering talent, and that one way to aid that effort is to bring more minority students and women into the science pipeline.

Nunley, Henry Shannon, chancellor of St. Louis Community College, and others at the meeting said that community colleges are already at work on infusing the pipeline with women and minority students, and yet many community colleges are watching the financial rug pulled out from under them.

Nunley closed her presentation with a photo of seven former Montgomery College students -- three women and four black men -- who are now at the Georgia Institute of Technology. She said that one of the students is at the Georgia Tech average with a 2.7 GPA. “The others are above,” Nunley said. “One has a 4.0.”

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Comments on Overlooked Again -- Community Colleges and Science

  • Overlooked ?
  • Posted by Charlotte at Division I on June 2, 2006 at 6:25am EDT
  • I am happy any and all colleges do well...but at our University the GPA starts over and fresh when one transfers here. It seems as one disavantage to our native students. Is that the same for many four year institiutions?

  • Reset
  • Posted by Andrew Purvis on June 2, 2006 at 8:00am EDT
  • I have yet to hear of any universities that do not start the GPA fresh when a student transfers in. This leaves a couple questions, however.

    First, with regard to the findings indicated in the story, are these students being measured against cumulative GPAs of students who worked their way up from their Freshman years? If so, there might be a watering down of the numbers, though that can be good or bad, depending on the student. If not—for the sake of argument, let us say that what is being expressed is a comparison on junior years in both "homegrown" and transfer students—then the findings once more support the claim that community college transfers, moving with the AA or AS in hand, are better prepared than their counterparts who entered those universities as Freshmen.

    Second, does the group that includes those transferring with less than a complete degree cover both students who began in community colleges and those who began at universities and took some community college courses along the way (either to pick up units in summer terms or to take courses they have failed or withdrawn from too many times)? These are vastly different populations, and if they are being processed as an aggregate we are probably getting skewed information.

    What is clear from the numbers here is that those students who transfer with degrees in hand tend to perform at quite respectable levels in their junior and senior years.

    Say what they might about opinions of the stigma of a community college education, people have difficulty finding fault with its success, especially once they recognize that not everyone attends community colleges in order to move to a university, or even to earn a degree.

  • Posted by stats prof , so true on June 2, 2006 at 9:20am EDT
  • I am a happy, tenured prof who does mathematical modeling and I got my start taking calc classes at my local community college while I was in high school (we didn't have calc at the hs).

    At my CC, I had an articulate professor who made the information clear and engaging. My first years at my R1 school were saturated with uncaring TAs who seem like they had gamed their ESL exams. They nearly crushed my soul.

    A N=1 self-report, yur mileage may vary, caveat emptor.

  • overlooked again
  • Posted by Sarah Munson on June 2, 2006 at 9:55am EDT
  • I am one of those students who attended Community Colege before entering the University I currently attend. I graduated from my community college with a 4.0 as an Honors student and got two Associates. While at the Community College I presented at three conferences. It was one of my instructors, who had previously taught at the University that alerted the University to my existence.
    My mother and father both taught at Community Colleges when I was growing up and always recommended I attend at what was then referered to as a Junior College, because the classes are small,the education as "good as", and because the people who teach at CC's are there because they want to teach. The pressure to publish isn't as high at most CC's.I attended two separate schools in two separate states and have yet to have a TA/Grad student oversee the class-I have never had anyone other than a PhD. teaching. (I shouldn't knock it I will be one of those TA's next year).
    Anyway, I transferred to my current small private elitist University and had to begin my GPA all over again. It is the norm to begin again- I do not know of any school that doesn't. I think community colleges are undervalued and overlooked precisely because they do a good job. It can be a real kick in the face to the University mentality/snobbery that those who attend the "local yocal" schools can compete with those who had the means to attend all along. I plan on returning to the community college system when I finish my dissertation work, because they make a real difference in the lives of real people. Sarah M Munson

  • Posted by Jim on June 2, 2006 at 12:05pm EDT
  • Perhaps the reason that community colleges get "over looked"....is because of the students....those who are good students will succeed......the ones in the article...are science and math ......and these students have done well....there is no reason to single them out as community college students
    ..they are students......

    When community college debates come up about credits, transferability, etc..it usually has to do with marginal students..students who have not done well...and they want another chance...and yes when they start at the next school they start over( thios goes for students transferring from any institution, the credits count the grades dont).....gpa, financial aid, usually this means they can borrow more money to attend the next college thus driving them more into debt,,, etc.

    Also, not all community colleges are equal. This does present issues when students are trying to enroll and get previous credits to transfer in. That might be the issue, who determines if a community college is offering the academic rigor that is necessary.

    All to often students attend proprietary schools under the guise of "a community college",receieve a certificate or diploma and then find out it doesn't count ..not because of academic snobbery but because of the lack (perceived) academic rigor.

    Articulation agreements might help this stiuation.

  • Shortchanged in other ways as well
  • Posted by Rob Rittenhouse , Assoc. Prof at McMurry University on June 2, 2006 at 2:20pm EDT
  • In many institutions the best merit scholarships are available only to incoming freshmen. Community college students need not apply.

  • A Lesson From CA
  • Posted by Andrew Purvis on June 2, 2006 at 4:20pm EDT
  • I am inspired by Jim's comment (in more ways than one) to ask about the issue of success. Let me throw out a few questions:

    Are students who are accepted to four-year schools more likely to succeed than those accepted to community colleges, assuming, in both cases, the goal is at least a baccaulareate degree?

    Are those students accepted to four-year schools universally more qualified or more accomplished than their community college brethren?

    What are "proprietary schools under the guise of 'a community college'"?

    Now that I have asked those questions, consider California's latest embarassement: nearly 47,000 students failed the high school exit exam, three times. These include no small number accepted to schools in the CSU and UC systems. Community colleges have open enrollment in California, so we take everyone, but the state's two university systems have accepted (and are now turning away) students who repeatedly failed exams keyed to the eighth grade level.

    Until universities can figure out how to avoid admitting students whose skills in math and reading lag more than four years behind their grade, those universities are going to continue to suffer the same problems that far too many people see as the sole domain of community colleges.