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Law Schools and Diversity Standards

June 19, 2006

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The United States  Commission on Civil Rights took up affirmative action at law schools during a five-hour session Friday highlighted by political posturing, jousting over statistics and moments of incivility.

A George Mason University law professor -- joined by a number of the commission's own members -- aired concerns that the American Bar Association, which oversees the accreditation of law schools, is pressuring institutions to practice unlawful racial preferences in admissions. Two other professors invited to address the group engaged in a broader debate about the costs and benefits of affirmative action at law schools.

David Bernstein, the George Mason law professor, said the bar association “wants law schools to violate the law” by mandating that institutions use racial preferences in their admissions policies or face accrediting penalties. Steven R. Smith, chair of the Council of the ABA Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar, vehemently denied the allegations and defended his association’s written standards by saying they don’t require schools to use quotas or even use race or ethnicity in their admissions decisions.

The ABA recently revised its diversity standards and will go before its House of Delegates in August for approval. Smith, whose association was scheduled to appear last month before the Education Department’s National Advisory Committee on Institutional Quality and Integrity, told the civil rights commission that he was looking for feedback on the updated standards.

The passage under scrutiny comes from the ABA council's longstanding Standard 211, which, in the updated version, would be titled “Equal Opportunity and Diversity,” rather than “Equal Opportunity Effort.” The text reads: “a law school shall demonstrate, by concrete action, a commitment to providing full opportunities for the study of law and entry into the profession by members of underrepresented groups, particularly racial and ethnic minorities, and a commitment to having a study body that is diverse with respect to gender, race, and ethnicity.” There is also a new proposed section of the standard that would read, "a law school shall demonstrate by concrete action a commitment to having a faculty and staff that are diverse with respect to gender, race and ethnicity."

Smith, who is dean of the California Western School of Law School, said the changes to the standard, including the inclusion of the word “diversity,” are meant to give schools more guidance and reflect the Supreme Court's 2003 decision in Grutter v. Bollinger, which upheld the affirmative action admissions policy at the University of Michigan Law School as a way of promoting equal opportunity.

Smith said the importance of diversity is clearly articulated in former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Connor’s majority opinion. “We will see schools being more creative in how they promote diversity,” he said.

Still, Smith found his defense a tough sell to the mostly conservative commissioners, many of whom questioned the need for a change in language. ( Federal law dictates that the president choose four members of the eight-member panel and Congress the other four, and that the commission have no more than four representatives of any political party at a time. But that can result in Republicans appointing "independent" members who are highly skeptical of the use of race, and Democrats doing the reverse when they control the selection process.)

Gerald A. Reynolds, chairman of the panel, told Smith that “it seems wholly inappropriate to force values on a school.” A number of commissioners also disagreed with Smith’s assertion that law schools are in agreement over the importance of racial diversity.

Bernstein and a number of commissioners said they take issue with the “diversity” addition and the inclusion of “race” in the standard. Richard Sander, a law professor at the University of California at Los Angeles, focused his comments not on institutions’ consideration of race but on the negative effects he sees affirmation active having on black law school students. He said the most recent data available -- which are from 1991 -- show that black students are 2.5 times more likely than white students not to graduate law school, and four times more likely to fail the bar on their first attempt. “We are essentially setting them up for failure under this system,” he told the commission.

Sander argued that a cascade effect is in place, in which the top-tier law schools, using what he calls a “racial double-standard,” admit minority students who, in a race-blind system, would be accepted into second-tier schools. The second-tier schools thus admit what Sander says are unqualified minority applicants because the schools feel pressure to have a diverse student body. If minority students at first-tier schools struggle academically, they can become disheartened and dropout, he said.

Sander’s argument is predicated on the idea that a student is better off flourishing at a lower-ranked school than floundering at a more elite institution. Richard Lempert, a University of Michigan law professor, disagreed with Sander’s premise. He said that black students are better off at elite law schools because of the doors the schools open. “We need to tell people what the risks are of failure and let them decide for themselves,” Lempert said. “If there is no affirmative action, blacks are less likely to get high-paying jobs and careers that lead to judgeships. Someone who you think will fail might be on bar review, and someone who you think will pass the bar review might fail.”

Lempert’s argument that there is still a “moral imperative” for affirmative action is based largely on studies he has conducted over the past 25 years at Michigan. He said the numbers show that although minority students generally entered with lower credentials and left with lower grades than their white counterparts, few flunked out and most enjoyed fruitful careers. The bar-passage rate was not substantially lower for those students, his work shows.
 
But like many of Smith’s arguments in favor of affirmative action, most of Lempert’s comments fell on deaf ears. Commissioner Jennifer Braceras went so far as to question Lempert’s motives: “I’m concerned you are justifying affirmative action because of your own white guilt,” she said.

 “I don’t feel guilty at all,” Lempert responded.

“It’s not about what’s best for black students. It’s about aesthetics,” or having the looks of a diverse campus, another commissioner, Abigail Thernstrom, asserted.

Reynolds, the chairman, said that if the point is to give black students a fair shot in the admissions process, why not lower the bar for everyone and “do away with the conversation of racial preferences?”

Lempert maintained that the high price of law schools and a sometimes “hostile environment” once a minority student enrolls can also lead to higher-than-average dropout rates. Sander responded by saying that “there’s a crushing process of discovery in the first or second years for black students who realize they are there because of affirmative action."

Added Thernstrom, who is a political independent but a frequent critic of the use of racial preferences: “If [students] are saying, ‘You’re an affirmative action baby,' the admissions policy is generating the stereotypes.”

But Michael Yaki, one of two Democrats on the panel, came to Lempert’s defense, saying: “We create the stigmatization. When we are saying, ‘they are going to fail,' we perpetuate the stigma, and it bothers me to the core.”

There were testy moments throughout the briefing, as speakers questioned each other’s motives, as well as their credentials. Commissioners interrupted each other, hands were raised and ignored, and feelings appeared to be hurt. Despite the occasional incivility, there was one point of unanimous agreement: the need for more data on minority student performance once in law school. “More transparency is always better,” Braceras said.

Many supported a proposed amendment (which failed in the U.S. House of Representatives) from Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) to the Higher Education Act renewal that would force schools that receive federal funding to provide the Office for Civil Rights a statement about whether race is a factor in their admissions process. 

“My sense is that black students aren’t always aware that they fall into the desperate category,” said Ashley L. Taylor, Jr., one of the panel's four Republicans.

Both Lempert and Sander called for the commission to bring together a group of politically neutral social scientists to sift through existing data on affirmative action in law school, to which Thernstrom asked: “Is there such a thing as a neutral social scientist?”

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Comments on Law Schools and Diversity Standards

  • Posted by Larry on June 19, 2006 at 6:15am EDT
  • Although I think the ABA would be wise to concentrate on curriculum reform, this proposal is much ado about nothing. Likewise, I don’t see how the Civil Rights Commission can actually enforce one of its decisions, directly, upon the ABA.

    First of all, right now, law schools are relatively diverse with respect to gender. The legal profession, at its senior levels might not be, because, quite simply, women quit.

    Secondly, perhaps we should take seriously the question of whether law schools create an environment that is hostile to black kids. On one hand, law school is hostile to everyone. Perhaps students with lots of social skills (that African-Americans presumably lack) will do better, because they can approach professors without hesitation (from the beginning) and make it look like they are not kissing up.

    Bernstein is probably going out on a limb (or looking for attention) is stating that these rather mushy standards are a form of affirmative action, since these “preferences” don’t require anything. (On the other hand, ABA standards with regard to, say, tenure, are quite specific.) At best, for students, the school must provide “opportunities” for people of one of those groups that the ABA must help. It is unclear what this means. It doesn’t appear to mean that African-Americans with SAT scores under 165 will get into good schools. Maybe “opportunities” might mean that Bernstein would have to make friends with at least two African-American first-year students each year, and give them the same advantages that he would give the white students he makes friends with.

    Reynolds is also being a tad silly. The ABA has always forced “values” on its member schools. Schools seem to like it this way, and most lawyers practicing today like the values that schools must follow. It tends to secure them jobs.

    Sanders is also being silly, too. At top-tier schools, the chances of failing out or being effectively forced to drop out are much, much lower than at second-tier schools. Indeed, because of grade curves, there is virtually no chance that an unqualified, yet somehow admitted, law school student will receive uniformly bad grades. (At a second-tier school, even smart students risk getting good grades.) Moreover, it is downright patronizing to say that anyone would be better off at a second-tier school. The subjects taught in law school are pretty much the same, and employers want to see high grades, regardless of whether you go to a school with a “C” curve or a B+ curve. Lempert probably realizes this, but doesn’t want to blurt out that many diplomas from “top” schools reflect more slacking than previously thought.

  • A day late...
  • Posted by Adonis Metriotitas on June 19, 2006 at 8:55am EDT
  • The Commission on Civil Rights is, as the colloquialism goes, "a day late and a dollar short." The Supreme Court's decision has been made, and even if admissions practices are evolving, O'Connor's opinion is clear.

    Moreover, the Commission's conservative members seem to suffer from the same withdrawal symptoms as some conservative groups--the seeming inability to understand that the Supreme Court explicitly allowed the consideration of race or ethnicity in admission.

    However, the court set limits that have further limited that consideration, which was a victory for conservatives.

    The Commission has a history of political marginality, and the conservatives who now occupy it are guilty of the same degree of ideological stringence that they used to criticize when the Commission was dominated by the left.

    Meet the new boss...

  • Is the Judicial Branch autonomous?
  • Posted by William Sumner Scott on June 19, 2006 at 9:30am EDT
  • At what point does the Judicial Branch lose the right to self regulate? If the Court system purpose was to seek justice, it would have solved this issue long ago - it would have timely eliminated slavery and second class public schools.

    But because justice is down on the system's agenda, reforms have to go deeper than the mere discussion of the race of those admitted to law schools.

    The judicial branch falsely claims the only mistakes it has made are the convictions proved wrong by DNA evidence. It must be made to tell the truth.

    The civil rights issue is the tip of the iceberg.

    William Sumner Scott, J.D.

    wss@jefound.org

  • Posted by Stop it now on June 19, 2006 at 9:30am EDT
  • "diverse with respect to gender, race, and ethnicity"

    Please notice gender comes first. How bad must the plight of the black male be before we stop affirmative action. Preferences given to women who are black (or other preferred minority) provide an easy double-bean-count for administrators looking to limit the damage done to an institution by affirmative action, leaving the black man on the outside looking in and falling ever further behind his sisters. And we wonder at the rise of misogynist lyrics in rap...

  • Posted by Larry on June 19, 2006 at 10:50am EDT
  • Stop it Now, Are you saying that rap is bad? Why? Are you saying that law schools have been “damaged” by affirmative action. If so, can you explain why Harvard, who, after Howard, admits and graduates more black men, is still ranked at or near the top?

    Mr. Scott, What does this have to do with the judicial branch? As far as I can tell – nothing! While it is true that many lawyers have contact with or are a part of the judiciary (that is, the federal or state judiciaries, or the judiciaries of other countries), many lawyers never appear before courts. Whatever the case, NOTHING in either this article nor in the ABA’s proceedings had anything to do with the “regulation” of the judiciary. “DNA evidence” is but another form of evidence that might tend to prove or disprove offered factual scenarios. The mere fact that someone can say that they have “DNA evidence” doesn’t mean that the a court did something wrong. Moreover, as a practical matter, to answer your question about “self-regulation” constitutions can be amended to limit the power of the judiciary. However, there is more interest in preventing states from recognizing gay marriage.

    Finally, by “curriculum reform” I refer not to vague assertions that lawyers are bad, but I would like to see more law schools require philosophy courts (not “philosophy of law”), and I would like to see more schools require competence in a liberal arts field at least the Masters level. Also, I want a real thesis requirement.

  • Misconceptions about Law School
  • Posted by Patrick Mattimore , Teacher on June 19, 2006 at 11:40am EDT
  • A number of posters seem to have some misconceptions about law school.
    Hobnobbing with the profs avails one nothing. Grades are determined exclusively by a midterm and final exam which are graded blindly. Class ranks and appointment to journals are made based upon grades.
    Sander highlighted the fact that minorities do poorly at the top law schools. The problem is that minorities do worse at law schools generally and flunk the bar at higher rates. Much of the criticism of Sander focused on the fact that minorities from the top law schools (a) still graduate at higher rates than do respective minorities from less selective institutions and (b) still have higher bar passage rates than do minorities coming from less selective institutions.
    Those criticisms miss the point. Minorities from more selective institutions graduate at higher rates b/c the overall percentages of grads from those schools is so much higher. The fact that these students pass the bar at higher rates is no surprise either b/c these are presumably the best students. Sander's point is that the minorities would do just as well (or better) at less selective institutions, which are the only ones to which they would have been accepted, had race not been a factor in admissions.
    The report from the Ethics Subcommittee of the Bar would go beyond what the USSC allows in Grutter. It may delight AA advocates but will certainly raise the Court's ire. The question then will be whether the Court would be willing to regulate the ABA.

  • Posted by Larry on June 19, 2006 at 12:30pm EDT
  • Mr. Mattimore, The ABA is in a strange position, in that its standards of accrediting do not directly confer accreditation on law schools. Instead, states adopt the ABA’s accrediting as their own. So, of challenged, any challenge would be to a state’s use of the ABA’s criteria (or a school’s conformance with it), and the ABA would likely not even be a party to any legal challenge. So, there likely couldn’t be any “regulation” of the ABA by the Supreme Court.

    As to whether grades are truly anonymous or not, this is a complex issue. In general, there is some non-anonymous ability of law professors to adjust anonymous grades for “motivation” or other mushy factors. In general, professors don’t see exams when grading them, but they might see the grade afterward. So, hobnobbing might have some impact. (In fact, I know it does.) If what people are saying is true regarding the ability of minorities to befriend professors, perhaps they have a point: minorities should be accorded the same ability to influence their grades as non-minorities.

    Much of the hubbub about AA is misplaced. The only people injured are underperforming white people that want to go to schools that will inflate their grades. Is this really a class of people that one should get too concerned over?

  • Posted by Kelly Harris on June 19, 2006 at 1:50pm EDT
  • Again the conversation happens around us (African-American attorneys)as if we are not in the room. I am curious to know if any African-American attorneys were present during the commission's hearings. My wife and I are both African-American, and 1993 graduates of the UCLA School of Law. Take note, that in the early 1990's, UCLA Law graudated more African-American students than at any time in its history. Out of the 36 black students who entered in 1990,...only 2 dropped out. One because of grades, the other simply because she decided to explore other opportunities...but her first year grades were some of the highest in the class. Why does Prof. Sander feel he can speak for the "affirmative action student" or any minority student? He continually cites to "studies" but I am a graduate of UCLA and no one has ever come to me or my fellow classmates to ask if we felt "stigmatized". (UCLA LAW has no problem contacting me to ask for a donation, mind you...)I, and most of my African-American classmates, some no doubtedly there because of affirmative action, and some clearly not, frankly did not care what any white people thought of us...students or professors. We were there to get our education, socialize with whomever we pleased, graduate, and become successful attorneys. In the early 90's minority students RAN UCLA LAW SCHOOL. We held positions in student government, particiapted in law review, dominated moot court, had a disproportionate number of students in the top ten percent, and were some of the most popular and vocal students in the law school...which is where the problem lies for some white people. When minority students inhabit institutions of higher learning in significant numbers, where we can establish our own support networks, we flourish and in some cases dominate. That made many less progressive thinking white students and professors very uncomfortable...we were extremely competitive despite what they wanted to believe about us. So UCLA embarked on its effort, in both undergrad and graduate admissions, to remove the source of their discomfort from the campus. And judging by the latest numbers they have been quite successful in removing black students from that campus. I am proud to say that most of the African-American class of 1993 went on to great success as attorneys and in other fields. Which proves,when given an opportunity, we can compete with anyone, academically and professionally. Again making many white people very uncomfortable.

  • Posted by Patrick Mattimore , Teacher on June 19, 2006 at 8:09pm EDT
  • Re the comments of Mr./Ms. Harris. I don't believe the conversation is happening around African Americans as if you (they) are not in the room. This is a public forum and everyone is entitled to express an opinion. I happen to believe that AA harms everyone. I think that every student who attends a law school has a right (as do the students who are rejected) to being judged on as objective a scale as we can develop. At present, that is a combination of grades and LSAT's. BTW your experience aside (and this is in no way intended to discount it), minority non-Asian students do less well academically and are less likely to pass the bar. While you may not have been consulted by Sander, his research and methods are certainly open to be studied and (as many people have pointed out) attacked.
    As to Larry's comment about the less than superlative achieving white student who we needn't concern ourselves with...these are the Bakke's and Grutter's who fall at the edges of admissions. Why should those more objectively qualified students be denied admissions to make room for AA students? This is, of course, the central question of the AA debate and we certainly aren't going to answer it here- or even, likely, change anyone's mind.
    Larry, I hope that professors aren't going behind the scenes to change grades (boost or punish certain students). While it probably happens, (and, I hope, rarely) we really have no way of debating this issue on anything other than anecdotes.
    Finally, Larry, I believe you are wrong about accreditation. There are both ABA approved law schools and State approved law schools. Most good law schools are both ABA approved and State approved. Not being an ABA approved law school has significant consequences for a school since a state only approves law schools within its own state.

  • Cultural/Gender Competency
  • Posted by Ricardo Alcaíno , Dir. of Diversity and Equity at Cal State Univ. Monterey Bay on June 19, 2006 at 8:09pm EDT
  • The bar must not be lowered any more than it already has for affluent and/or suburban white males. The bar should be raised for this group. They should compete equally with females and members of non-white racial groups on neutral rather than on culturally, socio-economically, and sexually biased turf. Many studies indicate that the standarized examinations commonly used for admission into college and those that are used in most public schools around the county are better at seperating which students better adapt and cope in a male dominated, culturally anglo-american, and socially middle to upper class environment rather than competency for higher education. It is no wonder then that white males tend to do disproportionately better at not only these examinations, but in the entire american educational system. It is in our national best interest to seek out the best, brightest, and most talented members of our society for promotion, and to stop giving an advantage to a very small group of individuals solely because of their race, gender, and socio-economic legacy.

  • Is the Judicial Branch Autonomous Revisited
  • Posted by William Sumner Scott, J.D. on June 19, 2006 at 8:45pm EDT
  • The question is: By what right do the State Supreme Courts delegate law school admission standards to the ABA.

    When can the other two branches of government interfere with law school admissions?

    Those are the big picture questions.

    The judicial branch is responsible for its self-regulation. They have delegated their authority to the ABA, a labor union. And, then they want to second guess the ABA's decisions.

    Who is on first? No, what is on first, who is on second. And, in the shuffle, the solution is missed, removal of the ABA, and applicants are wrongfully denied admission to the law schools of their choice.
    To get to big picture solutions - we must force the courts to look for justice rather than delegate their job to the ABA.

    William Sumner Scott, J.D.

    wss@jefound.org

  • Posted by Larry on June 20, 2006 at 10:10am EDT
  • Patrick, I agree there are both non-ABA-approved law schools and state approved law schools. Of course, not being ABA-approved has “significant consequences” but, if a school really believes in its principles, then it is free to tell the ABA where to go. The fact is, however, that law schools are in the business of producing marketable students, and nobody (including me) will hire a lawyer from a non-ABA accredited school. (Scalia suggested as much in his dissent.)

    The boosting of grades probably is not too relevant to this discussion, but it is a fact of law school, and at some point people will need to address it. Of course, the most socially skilled students know how to finesse a professor without the professor knowing that he is being finessed.
    The reason that I think that the Bakke and Gruter’s of the world don’t matter as much as we think they do, is because I think that the finer points of “qualification” in our world are really the luck of the draw. a tenth of a GPA point is really a question of course selection and strategic planning by a student and does not really indicate too much in the way of skill or intelligence. Therefore, I am going to chalk up what side of the line people fall on to luck.

    Mr. Alcaindo, Are you saying that as a white male, I should have to get higher grades than a black girl? Since you didn’t explain why it is in the “national interest” to seek out the “most talented” members of society, I will assume that you are just making a political point.

    Mr. Scott, I am really trying to understand you. To answer your question: YES. The legislature can regulate bar admissions. In many states it plays quite an active role in determining who is admitted. It is not inconceivable to have an executive agency regulate bar admissions, but it probably would create conflicts of interest, since, quite frankly, the executive is always the most frequent litigant. What this has to do with affirmative action is anyone's guess.

  • Posted by Kelly Harris on June 20, 2006 at 2:35pm EDT
  • To address Mr. Mattimore's comments...so you believe that LSAT scores and grades are the only appropriate measure, since it is "objective". Objective doesn't always equate to "fair", but I guess it does for the people it benefits. So if a student is a first generation college student, who has to work 30 hrs per week just to pay for college, and their scores are slightly (and I mean slightly, because its not like AA students were getting in with horrible LSAT scores and C averages..that is a grave misconception) below a student whose parents could completely financially support them through school so they can concentrate on just being a student and not have to work to pay for it... the rich kid should get in before the kid who busted their butt academically, while working their way through school? Nothing is objective sir. When choosing who gets the benefit of higher education other factors in a student's background must be looked at in order to be fair, and to educate more than just the privleged few in society...race is just one among many factors that should be examimed. Also, do you realize how condescending and paternalistic you sound telling me that AA harms everyone...it only harms the student that feels that his birthright was taken away from him because some Black or Latino kid "took his spot". The rhetoric is old and tired, let me determine and articulate what harms me. You can only speak for yourself. Don't talk to me about objective... there are many subjective factors... race, class and economics are just a few, that determine those "so called" objective measurements. To say anything else is to say that Blacks and Latinos are somehow intellectually inferior...is that what you are trying to say?? If so, at least your motives would be clear. If not, you need to reconsider your equating "objective" with "fairness".

  • AA
  • Posted by Patrick Mattimore , Teacher on June 21, 2006 at 11:25am EDT
  • Ah Ms./Mr. Harris. B/c I dare suggest that AA harms everyone I am being paternalistic- the next jump, and it is really only a small step, and I am racist, though you have no information about my race.
    My beliefs about the issue around AA, though largely set by experience, have crystallized recently b/c of the work of black intellectual (need I add, conservative) Shelby Steele. Steele also dares to suggest that even discussing issues such as AA are largely foreclosed b/c whites become so afraid to bring the topic up (I.e. White Guilt).
    I did not write that grades and LSAT's are the "only" objective measure. I do believe they are the best objective measures we currently have and to the extent that we can objectivify (and take subjective guesses) out of admissions we should. Should working to support a family, overcoming hardships, etc. play into admissions? Yes, to the extent these can be verified. There are plenty of people out there trying to game this system though.
    AA must take place at early levels. We must invest in pre-school programs. It does no good and is unfair to try and level playing fields at college and beyond. Here I will be paternalistic again and suggest as have people like Steele and Bill Cosby that there must be fundamental restructuring of the black culture. I think the real paternalism of the last 50 years has been a white guilt that has fostered permissiveness, lowered expectations, dependency, and ultimately a permanent underclass.

  • AA response
  • Posted by MR. Kelly Harris on June 21, 2006 at 2:25pm EDT
  • Ahh, Mr. Mattimore...I didn't accuse you of being a racist. But I did accuse you of being short sighted to believe that only "objective" measures should be considered, which is exactly what you said in your comment...Now it seems that you agree that some subjective measures are appropriate (as long as race isn't one of them). I don't quite understand what you mean by "working the AA system"?? Also, I wasn't attacking your ethnicity, I was attacking your ideas...I don't need to know or care to know what your ethnicity is, in order to rebut an argument. There is something we do totally agree upon...the problems in the black community, particularly regarding education must be solved early on. And I agree with Cosby that the most of these problems will only be solved by black people alone...our reliance on others to solve the problems in the black community has proven to be a failure...partly because it is not in anyone's best interest but our own to fix these issues. Where we must agree to disagree is in the acknowledgement of why some of these problems exist in the first place, and the refusal of some people to admit that the inequalities that exist today are the result of historical and institutional racism that goes back centuries. Now I know, "why should white people now have to pay for sins of the past"...well white people, although you may not want to admit it, are benefiting today from those sins of the past, and minorities are still suffering from those sins of the past...and that is not going to change overnight. So as long as the issues that have contributed to create the disparities in education (which you cannot argue were not racially motivated) that make those "objective" measures not accurate measures of success, subjectivity in higher education is required...or that permanent underclass that you speak of, will be entrenched. And by the way, I don't buy the "white guilt" conservative rhetoric and Steele's argument that black people somehow stifle the discussion by pointing out racism. I know, you know, and Steele knows that racism and prejudice still exists, and it effects everyones lives to this day. To acknowledge that is not "white guilt", its just accepting reality. The trick is getting everyone, white, black and otherwise, to accept responsibility for the conditions that create and perpetuate it.

  • AA Again
  • Posted by Patrick Mattimore , Teacher on June 21, 2006 at 8:35pm EDT
  • Interesting discussion and one reason that it's important to clarify. We do indeed have a great deal of agreement. Back to Steele for a moment... Steele points out that America is the only society in history to have made an about face on policy when it was at the top of the heap. Brown v. Board of Education, the Civil Rights movement, etc. constituted an admission of this society's racist past- rather remarkable when you consider that we had become the world leader.
    Now certainly there were other world movements taking place to throw off colonialism post WW II but the U.S. took an unprecedented step at the time and acknowledged that it had been wrong. Fast forward...Institutional racism in the U.S. is largely gone. Imagine something as simple as a school trying to mandate that no interracial couples would be permitted to attend senior prom- impossible. Yet when I grew up in the 1950's you wouldn't have even had a school need to make such a pronouncement b/c interracial couples didn't attend proms.
    You raise, what is for me at least, a really intriguing issue .."well white people, although you may not want to admit it, are benefiting today from those sins of the past, and minorities are still suffering from those sins of the past...and that is not going to change overnight. So as long as the issues that have contributed to create the disparities in education (which you cannot argue were not racially motivated) that make those “objective” measures not accurate measures of success,"... I'm not sure I agree with everything you wrote, but
    I struggle with this, not from the standpoint of past sins, however. I wonder about future directions. Someone or other at Boalt has contacted me recently about revising the LSAT. Now I happen to think (or thought) it is (or was) a pretty good test. What would you do if you were going to develop a law school admission test?

  • Posted by Kelly Harris on June 22, 2006 at 12:55pm EDT
  • First of all, thanks for the lively discussion...and I agree with you in some part, institutional racism in the sense that "Jim Crow" type laws and outward manifestations of racism are gone. However, I do not believe that the attitudes, prejudices, and misconceptions about race among those who control these institutions have gone away. Prime example... although Brown v. Bd. of Ed., mandated that separate but equal education is illegal, can you really argue that the education one receives in the inner city is the same that one receives in the suburbs? The funding for these schools is not the same, the resources available to these schools is not the same. So how can the level and quality of education be the same? So while the law says one thing, reality says something quite different. There has never been a real effort, from conservatives or liberals, to ensure that kids growing up in the inner city recieved an equal education to their suburban counterparts. While busing allowed kids of different ethnicities to sit in the same classroom for a period of time, it largely failed because school districts instituted it as a way of keeping the money in the suburban schools, just moving a few inner city kids to the schools with the money...so since you can't bus every kid in the inner city, the ones left behind, were truly left behind. No effort was made to truly fix the problems in inner city schools, giving those kids a sense of pride and investment in their own communities, which leads to greater self-esteem and a desire to succeed academically. No, what we tell those kids is, your neighborhoods and communities (essentially you) are not worth investing in...so,"if you are lucky" we will ship you away from everything you know and are comfortable with, place you in a "foreign" environment to get an education to a place where education is important (because its not important in your own neighborhood). Imagine what that does to a child's psyche. Also, Brown was decided over 50 years ago... if people's attitudes about race could change as easy as the law, we would not even be having this discussion. Steele's argument is flawed because it does not consider the fact that in order for the U.S. to be a world leader, and champion freedom in other parts of the world, while it openly oppressed and subjugated its own people, would be extemely hypocritical and effectively kill any credibility it had in world politics. Kind of like China or Iran going in front of the UN to denounce another country's human rights abuses...it would be silly. The U.S. was forced to change its policies, it was not because all of a sudden racism went away as he likes to argue, it just became more subtle and clandestine. As to the harder question..the LSAT...more emphasis should be placed on critical thinking and writing, which is truly a gauge on how a potential lawyer thinks. I know its easier to score multiple choice, but if we truly want a measure of how successful a student will be in law school and beyond, knowing how they analyze and express themselves verbally is the only true test. Your ability to complete a logic game means absoulutely nothing when you are standing in front of a jury delivering an argument.

  • AA
  • Posted by Patrick Mattimore , Teacher on June 23, 2006 at 1:00pm EDT
  • I think the racism became more subtle logic is a bit of a cop out. Since it cannot be disproven we are really left to speculate as to whether it continues, to what extent it continues, if at all, and what should be the appropriate remedy. Law school admissions are a zero-sum game and so I believe AA is not fair.
    I disagree with a couple of your other points. Legal changes came about largely because of attitude changes (hence Plessy to Brown). These changes were not forced upon American society by external forces as you write b/c otherwise the U.S. would have been seen as being hypocritical. In fact, the U.S. is frequently hypocritical-look at our "freedom policies" with regard to Latin America, our refusal to get involved in countries like Rowanda or Darfur which don't directly affect our interests, our snubbing of the World Court when it doesn't suit our interests, etc.

  • Racism no longer exists??? Are you serious?
  • Posted by Kelly Harris on June 23, 2006 at 1:25pm EDT
  • If you honestly believe that racism no longer exists in this country in any form, then its pointless to discuss this with you any further. Please send me a ticket to the America you live in, because in the America I live in, I experience it, my family and my friends experience it...I could spend all day giving you examples of how, even as a professional, I experience racism and prejudice. But, for someone who refuses to believe that it exists, its a waste of time. You just answered for me a lot of questions about yourself...you stated earlier that I did not know what race you are, now I know. Because, I guess racism doesn't exist in your world. Sir, thanks for this discussion, but we must agree to disagree.

  • Academic question
  • Posted by L.L. on June 23, 2006 at 3:45pm EDT
  • " .. Please send me a ticket to the America you live in, because in the America I live in, I experience it .."

    A serious, academic question:

    Justice O'Conner indicated in the U-Michigan case that AA might run another 25 years.

    Sir, are you suggesting that it run 50? or 100? or 1000?

    Thank you.

  • USCCR Hearings on Affirmative Action
  • Posted by Richard Lempert , Professor at University of Michigan on June 23, 2006 at 8:00pm EDT
  • I was one of the witnesses at this hearing and have a few comments to add to the discussion. First, nothing about the ABA's revised accredidation standards requires law schools to engage in affirmative action in admissions, though it doesn require them to take "concrete" steps to help ensure the presence of minorities. Some people, including members of the Commission, apparently chose to interpret this new standard as requiring affirmative action in admissions. In my view the goal was to erect a straw man they could then attack. Five USCCR members have done this by writing a letter to HHS asserting that either the standard should be changed or that the ABA's authority as an accredidation agency be withdrawn. They justify this in part by by advancing the interpretation that the standard would require schools in states like California to violate state law to comply. But even before I heard the discussion this was not how i read the rule. My reading was supported during the discussion by Dean Smith, who made it clear that there were many ways to meet the standard and that no violations of state laws barring affirmative action were required by the standard's language. David Bernstein who spoke in opposition to this new standard was particularly concerned with academic freedom issues and with the possibility that despite what Dean Bernstein said schools would feel they had to overcomply (i.e. engage in affirmative action admissions) to be sure their accredidation would not be threatened. My own view is that this conflict is largely a symbolic one, and that realistically there is not much difference between what the prior standard, which no one complained about, required and what this one would require. This parsing of language was an argument that only lawyers would engae in or could enjoy. On the merits, though I support affirmative action and think there is an educational case for diversity, I do not think the ABA should require affirmative action in admissions but do think law schools should be required to be hospitable to minorities.
    With respect to my testimony, I would point out that no article of the length of the one people are commenting on here can adequately convey most of the issues raised and arguments made in what turned into a three hour discussion. If people are really interested in the claims of Professor Sander and why I think the social science bases for his arguments are weak and misleading to the point of being fatally flawed, they can see our different psitions by going to his website and to the website maintained by the Equal Justice Society. Anyone interested in my written testimony, which, unlike some of the arguments in our articles, is not very technical can write me at rlempert@umich.edu for a copy. But let me make a few points from thsi testimony. First, there is nothing in the Bar passage data that Professor Sander uses that suggests that minorities are disadvantaged by going to the nation's best law schools. In fact, when one compares the graduation and bar passage rates of black law students with similar LSAT/UGPA index scores at different quality schools, at all index score levels those minorities attending the top tier law schools do better than their similarly credentialed counterparts at less elite institutions. Second, if one considers someone an affirmative action admit who is admitted to a school although his/her LSAT/UGPA index score predicts he/she should not have been admitted, in the 1991 entering cohort (which is the only cohort for which we know these data) about 2700 black students got into the school they attendeed through affirmative action - but so did about 6300 white students! No one, however notices the latter, who may be alumni children, faculty children, children whose admisison is pushed by wealthy alumni or state legislators, etc. Every white who could complain that he/she would have gotten into a law school he/she applied to had not a place been filled by an affirmative action admittee, could have been accomodated had no whites benefitted from affirmative action,and there would have been about 1900 places left over. Finally, in a study of minority and white students who graduated from Michigan Law School over a 27 year period, my coauthors and I found that once one controlled for time out of law school and gender, there was no significant difference between minority and white graduates in earnings or career satisfaction, though minority graduates (and blacks especially) did more pro bono work and other public service. Moreover the much balleyhooed admissions index score had no relationship to any of these measures of future career success. (This article is in Law and Social inquiry for the Spring 2000. I will send PDF copies upon request.)

    Rick Lempert

  • Sander's Fallacy
  • Posted by Jacob on July 11, 2006 at 2:30pm EDT
  • His premise that minorities students should attend lower ranked schools is absurd for the sake for absolute mertiocracy. It is no secret he is referring to black students because their LSAT scores are lower as a group. The students getting admitted to these top tier schools do not have poor qualifications. Their only weakness as a group is probably their LSAT score. You would get the impression as if law schools were accepting people off the street that can barely read and write. It is amazing in the 21st century people still look for ways to infer that there is something inherently inferior about black people. This veiled rhetoric alone is enough to prove that the prejudice creating the need for Affirmative Action still exists.

    Attending lower ranked law schools would only worsen the representation disparity among all strata of the legal profession. It would require an uncanny amount of personality and skill from any person to overcome the benefit of presitge associated with certain institutions.

    Furthermore, the lower ranked schools have harsher curves that result in high attrition rates. A B+ grading curve that requires a 2.0 GPA is going to have better atrrition than a C- grading curve that requires a 2.0 GPA. Graduates at lower ranked schools have lower GPAs relative than graduates at higher ranked schools making employment even more difficult. It is already notoriously difficult for graduates of any law school to find permenant employment without OCI. These lower tier schools are generally regional (or local) in employment scope which makes the necessity of conducing a national job search even more prohibitive for cash strapped students. This is especially troubling with the proliferation of new law schools and the Bar's limitation on practice to a single state which impaires the ability to follow job opportunities.

    The higher ranked institutions are still highly selective. You can count on your hands the number of blacks attending. There is no cultural revolution happening in America's law schools other than the high percentage of women attending. Hopefully, Mr. Sanders can take comfort in this fact. He won't have to cross paths with an inarticulate black people that have the audacity to want to practice law. Not as long as our public education system continues to train minorities in poor school districts as if they are still in the manufacturing or agricultural age.