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Saluting the Flag

June 22, 2006

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In 2003, when Tyler Mott was a student at the University of Arizona, he came to believe something was missing from classrooms: the American flag. He remembered the flag being prominent in every classroom in elementary and high school and wondered why it wasn't at his college.

He recalled discussions in his government class in high school. "We had some rather heated debates and I always liked to remember that the flag was there and it was what gave us the right to agree or disagree with our teachers or the government. It represents everything that is good about America," said Mott, who graduated from Arizona in 2004 and works in a Tucson bank.

Mott wrote to legislators about his concerns and the result will be reaching the Arizona governor's office: legislation to require every public college or university to display an American flag in every classroom -- and copies of the Bill of Rights and Constitution, too. There's no word on whether the governor will sign the bill but -- in the words of one college official -- "it's hard to veto a flag bill."

The legislation started out with just the flag requirement and it applies to all levels of public education in the state, although most elementary and secondary schools already have flags in every classroom, so minimal impact is expected there. The flags would have to be at least 2 feet by 3 feet and be properly displayed. As the bill moved through the Legislature, it was amended to also require that legible copies of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights must also be on display in every classroom.

Mott noted that he and others are upset that many U.S. flags are produced in other countries, so the bill specifically states that the flags and other materials must be produced in the United States. No money would be provided under the legislation and colleges are instructed to raise private funds to pay for the flags. (There are various, unconfirmed figures about the cost of the measure. An analysis by the Maricopa Community College District found that it would need to buy 1,220 flags to comply with the law.)

Arizona colleges and universities didn't take official positions on the bill, but officials at most institutions said that they didn't have flags in most classrooms and some said that they worried about vandalism of flags and Constitution posters, since many classrooms are left open much of the day.

Michael Hunter, assistant executive director for government affairs for the Arizona Board of Regents, said that faculty members "don't take ownership of a classroom" like elementary school teachers do, so that there would be a range of issues in terms of who would be responsible for maintaining the flags and displays.

The bill, if signed into law, would be an "unfunded mandate," forcing the colleges to focus on flags at a time of other pressing issues, Hunter said. At the same time, he said that most college leaders understood the idealism behind the legislation. "No one wants to be opposed to the flag," he said.

Reyes Medrano, professor of business at Paradise Valley Community College and president-elect of the faculty association for the Maricopa Community College District, said that the bill would divert resources. "We have other needs," he said. "This has been a non-issue."

Medrano also said that while he doesn't object to anyone flying a flag, he doesn't see why it should be forced on college classrooms, especially when its meaning isn't entirely positive to everyone. "I'm not anti-U.S. or anti-any country," he said, but flags equate with nationalism, which "creates separatism and unnecessary conflict."

Focusing on the flag, he said, can encourage people to "place our values in an institution rather than in humanity."

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Comments on Saluting the Flag

  • Idiots
  • Posted by Rebecca on June 22, 2006 at 6:45am EDT
  • This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I would love this legislator to tell us where the money is supposed to come from to pay for all of these flags and patriotic documents. I would say more but I have to go to my second job because the university I work for was unable to fund all of its grad students this summer.

  • Posted by Missy on June 22, 2006 at 7:10am EDT
  • The first thing I thought of when I read this, was does this nut have a friend who owns a flag making/selling company?

    Also, who is going to make sure that the darn things don't get stolen. University classrooms aren't occupied all day like K-12. Who is going to ensure that it's not a constant battle to supply the flag!

    Sad thing though... no one will be able to vote against this for fear of a negative campaign... 'flag hater' can't you see the ads now?

  • Here's the money
  • Posted by L.L. Berry , Two-time visitor at Grand Canyon on June 22, 2006 at 7:30am EDT
  • "This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I would love this legislator to tell us where the money is supposed to come from .."

    The flags would cost about $25,000. Plus, I'd guess Arizona companies like Goldwater's might donate them.

    Further, Ms. Know-it-all, from Dr. R.K. Vedder --

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0844741973&itm=1

    here are two ideas to find the $25,000. Cut one administrator. Cut one research project that has dragged on more than five years with no significant results.

    Also, given the millions of unemployed or under-employed MAs and PhDs -- have all MA and PhD students sign statements, acknowledging that fact. After that event, a few would probably drop out.

    As to the faculty leader and his flock concerned about "humanity" as opposed to the country that pays his salary --

    Are you planning to work at the United Nations? Can U.S., Arizona, and local taxpayers stop paying your salaries? Thanks -- finding your replacements will be easy.

  • Flag Display
  • Posted by Tom McCool on June 22, 2006 at 7:50am EDT
  • In the largest academic building on our campus - the one that nearly all our students spend at least some time in - there is a display of over 30 flags. The flags represent the home countries of our students (at the time the display was put up two years ago). Of course, the US, state and college flags are part of the display. I think that is more appropriate and educational than a US flag in every classroom.

  • Posted by Jane Arnold , Community College Instructor on June 22, 2006 at 8:10am EDT
  • I think it's about time that all public-school teachers, K-graduate school, begin to take back the classrooms in which we are well qualified to teach and stop letting state legislators dictate what happens in those classrooms.

  • Unfunded Mandates
  • Posted by Ernest Thomas on June 22, 2006 at 8:30am EDT
  • Wow, the Arizona legislators must have worked out all the more important problems of the state (health care, prison overpopulation, unemployment, environmental crises, etc.) to get to this on the list.

    I don't have a particular problem with this request, I guess if its important enough to require it, it ought to also be important enough to fund it. Cutting faculty to cover costs is probably too drastic, but cutting support staff -- custodians, secretarial help, etc. -- could cover it.

  • Posted by AC on June 22, 2006 at 8:40am EDT
  • $25,000 for flags can mean tuition assistance for many students. Unfortunately, here it seems that priorities are misaligned.

    And sadly, anyone opposing the idea will probably be accused of being unpatriotic, or even better, a terrorist.

  • $25,000?
  • Posted by Ricardo Padron , Associate Professor at University of Virginia on June 22, 2006 at 8:40am EDT
  • I wonder how many needy Arizona kids could go to college for $25,000? Even if it's only a couple, wouldn't that be a better way to spend this money than on the flags?

  • why not?
  • Posted by Larry on June 22, 2006 at 9:00am EDT
  • Personally, I don’t care one way or the other about a flag, but let’s be honest: $25,000 is a drop in the bucket when it comes to buildings budgets. $25k is spent on bathroom fixtures (probably about the cost of a small bathroom in most places) all the time. Universities waste $25,000 all the time, and a program to send poor kids to school would cost a lot more, and require a lot more development than installing a few flags.

    I think the vandalism concerns are misplaced. I don’t really think that fratboys are going to get drunk, go into classrooms, and destroy a flag. (In my experience, most university vandalism is committed by fratboys.)

    While unfunded mandates raise all sorts of ire in the federal system, there is nothing per se unconstitutional about them in the state system.

    Anyway, I think that requiring legible copies of the constitution and the bor is an intersting idea. Maybe it would get people thinking about the less-than-agreeable parts of the constitution: like the ones that say that people can hate other people, perform exotic dance, and even criminals get trials.

  • So go charter/private
  • Posted by L.L. Berry on June 22, 2006 at 9:15am EDT
  • " .. it’s about time that all public-school teachers .. begin to take back the classrooms .."

    I do not understand this complaint. There are already some teachers, disgusted by the lack of performance and incentives in public schools, who have done something.

    They started their own charter/private schools. They stopped griping and took responsibility for their own fates. Like this one --

    http://www.berea.edu/

    If someone is so upset about U.S. flags -- start your own charter/private school. No one is stopping you.

    Otherwise -- as long as you directly take public tax dollars, the public is directly going to be your boss. Get used to it -- or please leave quietly.

  • Posted by DJB on June 22, 2006 at 9:40am EDT
  • Perhaps L.L. Berry should like to donate the resources to fund the flags and Constitutions as an act of philanthropy. Otherwise, please leave quietly.

  • here's to empty gestures
  • Posted by J on June 22, 2006 at 10:00am EDT
  • Look, nobody is "against" having the flag, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights in classrooms. On a philosophical level, I actually quite like the idea - I wish the Bill of Rights, in particular, was posted all over the place, because Americans aren't nearly familiar enough with it.

    But, what problems does this legislation solve? We all hear/read various complaints about how legislators don't do anything of value, and this does little to diminish those sentiments. It's hollow symbolism to bolster the "patriotic" credentials of those who vote for it.

    How about doing something to SUPPORT the Bill of Rights? You know, unlawful search-and-seizures, repression of free speech, etc? (In other words, actually IMPORTANT things.)

    This legislation is all well and nice, but let's be honest - we're just giving legislators an excuse to pat themselves on the back while avoiding REAL issues facing their constituents. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't vote people into office so they can puff themselves up about how great they are.

    Public legislation is SUPPOSED to be in the interest of helping and protecting the citizenry, not stroking the gargantuan egos of self-important politicians.

  • Idolatry
  • Posted by jd , Professor on June 22, 2006 at 10:00am EDT
  • When I lived in Vietnam for a year as a Fulbright scholar, there was a Vietnamese flag in every college classroom and lots of other patriotic idolatry sponsored by the Communist Party of Vietnam. There was also a Party cadre in every academic department.

  • Bare Bones
  • Posted by Chartreuse on June 22, 2006 at 10:45am EDT
  • At community colleges with open campuses, EVERYTHING that isn't tied down is often stolen, and in short order, too. Things get stolen from classrooms regularly, even dumb things with little commercial value. Also, I don't know how the calculation of $25,000 was determined, but I suspect it would be significantly more expensive for the flags (our office has purchased flags before). And for those of you who haven't seen a community college classroom lately, at the older institutions the classrooms are paint-chipped, bare bones (because of theft), and with 35-year-old desks that are too small for the every-increasing American waistlines. I vote for new desks, increased course offerings, salaries that keep up with inflation and the cost of living, and the hiring of the most highly qualified faculty and staff.

  • Symbols are the real last refuge of scoundrels
  • Posted by Ross on June 22, 2006 at 11:05am EDT
  • The Constitution is an important document that few people (many sitting in Washington) know enough about. Posting in every classroom isn't necessarily the best way to educate but I can live with that. It MEANS something. Requiring a flag is just plain stupid and frankly insulting to all Americans. It's a symbol, not a holy relic. Because it is a symbol, it's meaning becomes corruputed by efforts such as this, flag burning amendments, saying people died for it and other strictly political ideas and statements. It has nothing to with patriotism or appreciation of American political history and ideals. In fact, there most likely is a negative relationship between the 'cult' of the flag and appreciation of those ideals.

  • Flags in classrooms
  • Posted by Jim Daugherty on June 22, 2006 at 11:50am EDT
  • $25,000 wouldn't begin to cover the cost of the flags, let alone the reproductions of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution. The number of classrooms in MCCCD is only a fraction of the Higher Ed classrooms in the state. There's the U of A, ASU, NAU, with all of their branch campuses, and and all of the other Community college District's classrooms as well.

    Its interesting that an amendment to the bill that would have required Flags be displayed in all of the pulic rooms at the Legislators offices and State capital buildings was defeated.

  • Berea??
  • Posted by mdg on June 22, 2006 at 11:50am EDT
  • Can LL Berry please explain the Berea reference? This is a private college with a gigantic endowment. It also almost "owns" the town of Berea. Give us a half a billion and we can start a school just like it--and include those precious flags inside snatch-proof cases.

    At our university, we can no longer leave maps in classrooms because anything in the room is such popular contraband that it gets taken within days of placement. Flags and wall decorations would simply be very special. I would estimate a cost of $25,000 per week to remain in compliance (there are students who would distinquish themselves with the largest number of patriotic memorabilia, etc.).

  • You first
  • Posted by L.L. Berry on June 22, 2006 at 11:50am EDT
  • "Perhaps L.L. Berry should like to donate the resources to fund the flags .."

    Thanks, I've already raised $250,000 medical charities, including for medical services for illegals (not my decision).

    What have you done? Other than thinking yourself entitled to free stuff at work?

  • Enforcement
  • Posted by Daniel , student at Wash U on June 22, 2006 at 11:50am EDT
  • There are a few issues that need addressing.
    1. The $25,000 stat is wholely unreliable and misleading. Imagine a scenario where a company donated all of the flags for the whole state. The cost still won't be $0, because mandates like this don't only incur the cost of the materials; they also incur the cost of monitering and enforcement. This brings up another issue.
    2. Are we really prepared to enforce the law against an institution that doesn't completely comply? I mean, seriously, are we really going to go through with a court case when some disgruntled student sues his school for not having a flag in one of 2,000 classrooms? That's where the major cost would be: lawyers' fees and court dates. I can't imagine anyone actually enforcing this law, so does it really make sense to have it then?
    3. I reject the notion that legislation shouldn't be presented because there are more important things to be doing. Certainly to some extent legislators have limited time with which they can only deal with certain issues, but the reality is that there are a whole lot of legislators in comparison to the amount of legislation they present. It would be nice if they had some ordered checklist sent from on high that they could deal with in order of importance, but that's not the case. It's also not necessarily true that dealing with this issue means that another one goes by the wayside.
    4. Despite comments to the contrary, I don't think that ideally everyone would like to have flags and patriotic documents in every classroom. I love my country, and I serve my country, but I don't need a flag in my astronomy classroom to remind me where I am or my nation's history. Having it in EVERY classroom borders on hypnotic propaganda, and that's not what America is about. The Fulbright scholar had an important point in relating this to communist and despotic regimes. They needed their message to be pounded into the subconscious of their people so that they would lay down in acceptance of the will of the party. That's not the American way. The history of our nation and our government is about change and adaptation towards a better way of life. It's about NOT accepting the status quo. And while I think that those ideas are highlighted in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, I also think that this legislation might be counter productive, and could inspire the ire of many opposed to unflinching nationalism.

  • Legislators
  • Posted by michael on June 22, 2006 at 12:55pm EDT
  • I would like to propose that all state officials prominently display an American flag and copies of the Constitution and Bill of Rights on their front lawns. After all, as representatives of the United States Government, shouldn't they be role models of patriotism??? Of course, the flag would need to be on a regulation sized pole and lit at night and the documents must also be in weatherproof display cases that are lit as well. Of course, this entire project will not be funded and must be at their own personal expense.

    It is certainly easy for them to pass legislation without funding and then expect educators to scramble to make it work... Anyone remember "No Child Left Behind???"

  • Posted by Thane Doss on June 22, 2006 at 12:55pm EDT
  • I often read/hear things about the US being a very religious nation, and I know there are prohibitions against idolatry in the Old Testament, used by Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike. So it always surprises me a little when people urge laws to force a form of idolatry on others and conservative religious figures don't speak up.

  • What?
  • Posted by L.L. Berry on June 22, 2006 at 12:55pm EDT
  • " .. Are we really prepared to enforce the law against an institution that doesn’t completely comply?"

    IHE readers are used to strange, weird comments (I lived in Portland, OR, for three years, I know weird).

    But aforementioned takes the cake. A U.S. tax-supported institution unwilling to post the U.S. flag should start looking for a new funding source. Once the Bill O'Reilly crowd is done with it, it wouldn't have a taxpayer-penny in the till.

    Don't think $25,000 is enough? OK -- let's make it $100,000, laminate the flags for security purposes, and layoff another administrator to fund the project.

    And why not a mandatory "What America Means To Me" essay competition on Sept. 11? Or Nov. 11? Dec. 7? For students -- AND faculty and staff? Wouldn't that be an engaging exercise?

  • Posted by Paul on June 22, 2006 at 2:05pm EDT
  • When I looked at the Constitution a couple of minutes ago, I found the Bill of Rights was still embedded in it. Do the rest of us know something that the Arizona legislature does not?

  • Americans are so funny...
  • Posted by Ira Socol at Michigan State University on June 22, 2006 at 2:55pm EDT
  • This student, the state legislators, and all who would waste time on this might be entertaining if the whole thing was not so dangerous. The endless American ability to confuse symbols with ideas is sad.

    I always ask Americans this. What other nations are so obsessed with their flag? It turns out, that it almost always dictatorships. Yes, Vietnam might order this. Yes, Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Falangist Spain were this concerned with flag flying and prohibiting flag desecration. Of course they were. They had no legitimate governmental ideals to look up to, so they took refuge in the symbolic.

    I don't care if Americans do what the Brits do, and turn their flag into underwear, and I wouldn't spend a dime on another US flag for a college campus until that school proves that over 80% of its students vote. For participation in democracy, and the hard work of citizenship, is what makes someone patriotic, not pieces of cloth and pieces of paper.

  • Another Thought
  • Posted by Ernest Thomas on June 22, 2006 at 2:55pm EDT
  • Perhaps we ought to ask the Arizona legislators to read and explain the constitution and to give us a history of the flag.... I fear that this is a modern day substitution for real reform and real education.

    People who grasp onto symbols with such fervor often make them into idols rather than symbols.

    In my neck of the woods it's copies of the Ten Commandments for school walls and courthouse lawns. Such actions are largely symbolic, though I haven't really determined what they symbolize.

  • Displaying the Bill of Rights
  • Posted by Ira Socol at Michigan State University on June 22, 2006 at 2:55pm EDT
  • Meanwhile... back at the Arizona Statehouse

    "Bill allows college clubs to exclude people without losing funding
    By Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services
    June 21, 2006
    State lawmakers voted Tuesday to allow clubs at universities and community colleges to exclude gays — and maybe others — without losing their public funding.

    "SB1153, given final approval by both the Senate and House, would make it illegal for publicly funded schools to deny access or finances to any campus organization solely because it restricts its membership to those who share religious, political or philosophical beliefs."

  • It's really not that weird.
  • Posted by Daniel , student at Wash U on June 22, 2006 at 3:05pm EDT
  • Questioning enforcement really isn't that weird of a concept (especially in comparison to the idea of relying on a pundit's wrath to spur that enforcement). The parallel that comes to mind is that of jaywalking. It's a law, but hardly anybody is willing to enforce it. The key difference is that citizens don't have to pay money to comply with the jaywalking law, whereas institutions, in order to comply, would have to foot the flag bill. Frankly, it's a shame that the concept of questioning monitoring and enforcement seems so weird, because it should be a question that legislators ask before passing any new law. As for the essay on "What America means to me," that actually seems like it would be far more effective than the flag bill. Or perhaps a mandated class in civics would produce the desired effect. This piece of legislation isn't just a bad idea at it's core, it's not even an optimal way of achieving its goal. I'll stop here though before O'Reilly ties me to a boulder and throws me in a lake to see if I sink or float.

  • Disposable Flags
  • Posted by Joseph Duemer , Professor at Clarkson University on June 22, 2006 at 6:15pm EDT
  • To solve the theft problem, Arizona should mandate that there be a flag dispenser in every classroom. You know, like a paper towel dispenser in the restroom. An endless supply of feel-good, utterly meaningless symbolism. And since the goal, apparently, is to turn the Constitution into a meaningless icon (depriving it of its status as a living document), the same system could be employed to dispense copies of the Constitution.

  • Lapels part 2
  • Posted by normalvision , Prof. of English (Ret.) on June 22, 2006 at 6:15pm EDT
  • "Arizone" is the 51st state, produced by unpatriotic bad typists.

  • Posted by Francisco , Wow on June 23, 2006 at 4:40am EDT
  • Witnessing the incessant "freedom" etc.talk is so utterly depressing, given that this isn't technically supposed to be a fascist state. Wow. We could be funding so much more than cloth and banners, but I suppose the patriotism behind real measures of progress (healthcare,more competitive education, social security, natural disaster prevention and relief) would probably be questioned. What country has this turned into? I thought our grandparents put their lives on the line 62-63 years ago in Europe and the Pacific to eradicate this kind of unidimensional, fascist ignorance forever.

  • Facist? Hardly
  • Posted by L.L. Berry on June 23, 2006 at 9:25am EDT
  • "Witnessing the incessant “freedom” etc.talk is so .. depressing, given that this isn’t technically supposed to be a fascist state."

    Facist? Ha! My girlfriend's family was tortured and murdered during the Cultural Revolution, as the Hollywood crowd wore Mao shirts. Give me a freakin' break!

    The faux-radical U.S. academic crowd have no freakin' idea what a real fascist state is like. Alberto Gonzales stumbles into something, and 25 lawyers step in. In a real fascist state, Ward Churchill would be a dim 30-year-old memory.

    Faux-radicals love taking U.S. money, then insulting the payers. How long do you think that arrangement can last?

  • Posted by STM on June 24, 2006 at 7:15pm EDT
  • Wow. So much bitterness about posting American flags! Its hard to believe that so many people here consider this bill to be both evil and the acme of government waste. Why not complain about something really important, like Christmas Trees or what Susy's T-shirt says. I mean read some of these posts: the nazi's had a flag, therefore this is a nazi program or Vietnam has flags in their schools therefore this is communistic.

    Why not do something constructive instead, like, when they arrive, have a discussion on what the flag means or should be used for. Or if (I guess I should say when for some of these fine schools)it gets stolen use that as a lever to get some security. Meanwhile this must be a really boring summer for some people.

  • plan B
  • Posted by Larry on June 24, 2006 at 11:25pm EDT
  • I just had a thought: academics should support this measure in full! First of all, there is nothing inherently anti-intellectual or bad about the flag. The constitution is arguably one of the most important documents of government with undisputed historical and philosophical significance.

    If academics accept this enthusiastically (perhaps even overdoing this legislature) they will take the wind out of the sails of anyone that thinks that academics are somehow anti-American or whatever. $25k is not that much in the grand scheme of things. Maybe professors should contribute a few thousand and make a big deal of it. Nobody will feel dirty, and this will reduce the chance that next year schools will be required to display W's picture in every class.

  • Posted by Douglas Lewis on June 26, 2006 at 3:35pm EDT
  • The flag is simply a symbol of the American system of government and American freedom. There is nothing wrong with requiring it to be displayed in publically-funded classrooms, which are themselves products of that freedom.

  • Flag fiasco
  • Posted by Carol on June 26, 2006 at 11:15pm EDT
  • Another problem no one has mentioned yet are all the public schools that DO already display a flag in the classroom, but it is not the "proper" size or, may be made somewhere else. One superintendent I spoke with said it would cost his district $36000 to replace all the "too small" flags (2x3 is huge for a classroom!) and that was before the additional requirement! That's at least one teacher's yearly salary. With AZ consistently ranking LAST in public education, we could certainly find better ways to spend out money! I'm a retired AZ teacher, and I'd hate to see class size zoom and programs get cut so we have a BIG flag in every room. Besides, just having the thing there doesn't change attitudes or ideas!

  • Care
  • Posted by Andrew Purvis on June 27, 2006 at 5:20am EDT
  • When is someone going to pay to train people in the proper care of the flag? People fly it in the rain, attach it to their car antennas and let them turn to tatters. Maybe before we try waving the flag, literally or figuratively, we should find out how to treat it properly. Only then might the investment really demonstrate any real patriotism.

    In the meantime, we might mandate the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance at the beginning of each college class. It's a sure fire way to increase attendance. And teach the word "indivisible."