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So That's Why They're Leaving

July 26, 2006

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In the past half year, Congress has held hearing after hearing to discuss the so-called American “science pipeline,” which some legislators say is leakier than warped rubber tubing.

The senators and representatives and the witnesses they've brought before them have offered a rainbow of possible reasons why a smaller proportion of American undergraduates are majoring in physical sciences and engineering than in the past. Some have suggested that biology is the hot science and has lured many top students away from other fields. Others have suggested everything from poor undergraduate instruction to nerd stigma. “Bright girls play dumb and guys can’t get dates,” said Rep. Roscoe G. Bartlett, a Maryland Republican on the House Science Committee.

But, in all those hearings, Congress folk may have missed some of the low-hanging fruit, according to interviews with a range of scientists and experts on science education.

Greener Grade Pastures: Science students get worse grades than non-science students. No comprehensive data for the distribution of grades around the nation by discipline exists, but in 1998 the College Board surveyed a representative sample of 21 selective institutions to find out how students who took Advanced Placement courses in high school were performing in college. The data show that, when students who got AP credit and were taking second-level college courses (as opposed to intro classes) were compared, non-science students got much better grades.   

In English courses surveyed, 85 percent of those high-achieving students that were surveyed received A's or B's. That’s compared to 54 percent of those students in math courses.

Paul Romer, an economics professor at the Graduate School of Business at Stanford University, who has studied the issue, wrote in an article for Stanford Business that “the grades assigned in science courses are systematically lower than grades in other disciplines, and students rely heavily on grades as signals about the fields for which they are best suited.” Thus, he concluded, students usher themselves out of the science track.

Data from the Higher Education Research Institute at the University of California at Los Angeles show that, in 2004, about 9 percent of freshman students nationally planned to major in engineering, and 2 percent planned to major in physical sciences. Those numbers are pretty typical for the last two decades, and what is also typical, according to National Science Foundation data, is that it is not uncommon for fewer than half of those intended majors to stay the course.

It seems that the attrition rate in the physical sciences and engineering is chronically higher than in social and behavioral sciences. According to the NSF, only about 4.5 percent of bachelor’s degrees were awarded in engineering in 2004, and only about 1 percent in the physical sciences. Conversely, depending on the demographic, generally between 8 and 15 percent of freshmen intend to major in social and behavioral sciences, for which degrees made up 16 percent of the 2004 total.

Romer isn’t the only one that thinks unequal grading practices drive students from science. Ronald G. Ehrenberg, director of Cornell University's Higher Education Research Institute and an economics professor there, recalled a student who got an 85 on a test, which was above the mean, coming up to him and saying, “I’m dropping your class, because the best I can do is an A-, and I’m going to Stanford Law School.” Part of the problem Ehrenberg said, is that students who want to keep law school as an option will tend away from quantitative courses because it’s clear to them that disproportionate grade inflation in the humanities and less quantitative social sciences will give them a boost.

With Web sites like ratemyprofessors.com, students can instantly find out how “easy” other students think a certain professor is. A 2002 Cornell Higher Education Research Institute study showed that grades in Cornell's science courses are generally several tenths lower than other courses, and a 2005 institute study found that, presented with information on the grading, students will flock to the easier courses, driving grade inflation even more.

In 1996, worried that they were giving lower grades than professors at competitor institutions, faculty members decided that Cornell should publish the median course grades for every course, every semester, so that faculty members could see the distribution of grades, and, presumably, adjust if a particular course’s median grade is too low. Not surprisingly, students started turning to the list, and according to the 2005 institute study, the list started looking different in a hurry, as students migrated en masse to easier courses. By spring 2005, the list shows that, of over 1,300 courses, fewer than 20 had median grades of B- or lower.

Weeding Out: Several experts suggested that the culture of scientists has kept science grades down, while science students at many institutions have watched longingly as humanities grades have drifted up and away like a helium balloon.

“There’s a difficult culture here,” said Daryl Chubin, director of the American Association for the Advancement of Sciences’ Center for Advancing Science & Engineering Capacity. “The culture of science says, ‘not everybody is good enough to cut it, and we’re going to make it hard for them, and the cream will rise to the top.’ ”

Ehrenberg said that some scientists are starting to drop the "weed out" mentality, but Chubin still sees decade old themes. “I took a Ph.D. in 1973,” Chubin said, “and people were saying the same thing then. ‘Look to your left, look to your right, some of you will be gone.’ There’s a joy of attrition; demonstrating your manliness, back then it was all manliness, by failing students.”

Beyond tough guy science education, though, the 2002 Cornell study also pointed out that class size affected grades.

Large and Impersonal: The study showed that, controlling for the effects of discipline, large courses at Cornell had lower median grades than small courses.

The study suggested that large courses might have lower grades because the grading tends to be more coldly quantitative, so students who perform poorly on a major exam may have little recourse to bring their grades up. Whereas, in a smaller course, with more personal interaction, a student might be more likely to get advice on how he or she can improve directly from a professor, and might be rewarded for things like contributing to class discussions. Unfortunately for the science pipeline, many intro science and math courses tend to be large, while English courses, for example, tend to be small enough for a productive discussion.

But grading isn’t the only thing that shoos students from disciplines with large introductory courses.

Math and Science Goes Vertical: Math and science are taught “vertically,” meaning students are often made to slog through two years of large, formulaic introductory courses that teach fundamentals before they get any taste of the hands-on work that makes a career in science attractive to most scientists. In the process, students seldom form any bond with the scientists teaching the course.

Science departments are “daring students to persevere and earn a degree,” Chubin said. He added, though, that there are faculty members swimming upstream.

Richard Losick, a biology professor at Harvard University, said that students can come to think that those impersonal intro courses represent a career in science. Losick goes out of his way to get freshmen and sophomores into the lab. “If a student’s in a lab,” Losick said, “they’re going to get to know a professor and grad students and post docs … instead of a sea of hundreds of students taking chemistry.”

Signs of Hope

Some institutions are attacking disproportionate grade inflation head on. Princeton University has told all departments that they should work toward having 35 percent of grades be A's. Only the natural sciences were around that before the 2004-05 academic year, the first with the new policy. “One of the results we hope for,” said Nancy Malkiel, dean of the college at Princeton, “will be that if the grades in the natural sciences are comparable to the grades in other fields, students won’t be deterred from entering the natural sciences because of grades.” In the first year under the policy, other disciplines made major headway toward reaching the natural sciences.

Losick added that he sees a national trend of scientists, problem solvers that they are, trying to teach intro courses in a more engaging, interdisciplinary way, so, for example, a biology student can learn chemistry while getting some of the bio that he or she is interested in. “We launched a new course last year,” Losick said, “that integrates chemistry and molecular biology.… It has themes in which some biological problem is tackled from multiple points of view.”

If the science pipeline is to be shored up, Chubin said, it’s clear that Congress can only do so much. “The faculty has to own this,” he said.

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Comments on So That's Why They're Leaving

  • Having to "know stuff"
  • Posted by A.D. on July 26, 2006 at 6:50am EDT
  • As to this: " .. Science students get worse grades than non-science students .."

    I'm reminded of when Jon Stewart of "The Daily Show" interviewed an academic and admitted he left pre-med for psychology "and other junk" in college because "y'know, with pre-med, you were expected to actually know stuff, versus just winging it."

    At the beginning levels, there is a need for specific knowledge. Learning that material in K-12, starting with the always-enthusiastic NEA-AFT members, and then in college with 700 of your best friends, is one Titanic struggle. Bill Gates has it right; smaller educational institutions.

  • Large Classrooms
  • Posted by Sandra on July 26, 2006 at 9:55am EDT
  • I can remember my first year at a university. I was taking an honors zoology class with a total class size of less than 15 -- I carried an A. I was also taking Chemistry with a class size of 300+ stadium seating -- I had a D. I remember the professor of the chemistry class asking if anyone had any questions... like who would actally raise their hand in front of 299 other students who were ready to get out of there (and no one did). As a pre-vet major who knew that to get into vet school you had to have mostly A's and one or two B's maybe, I realized I would be there the rest of my life trying to make an A/B in the 4 required chemistry classes. I also realized I love animals, but not really science (or at least that's the impression I got after being in a science class with stadium seating).

  • Logical error
  • Posted by DJV on July 26, 2006 at 9:55am EDT
  • There's a logical fallacy at work in this analysis.

    Courses in which students get better grades are not necessarily "easier'. They may be, for instance, "better" taught so that students learn more of the course content and consequently perform better. The content may be more relevant to students so they are more motivated and/or able to make the material meaningful to themselves with the result being greater learning and performance. Or, perhaps, these courses are intrinsically more interesting to students (as opposed to instrumentally useful for their career goals) and thus they engage and process cognitively at deeper levels and thus learn more. The list goes on.

    The data available, or at least used in this article, can not answer the question of course level of difficulty. The necessary data would be of an entirely different order as it would require not an analysis of grade distributions, but of course content, grading criteria, and student investment of time and effort.

  • Another possible interpretation
  • Posted by AC on July 26, 2006 at 11:15am EDT
  • Another interpretation may be that the high school prep in math and science AP classes may not be generally as thorough as it is in the humanities. Sciences are more expensive and good math and science teachers are harder to find. That was my individual case. I failed Calc II in my first semester because my AP Calc class in high school had been a bit of a joke. The fault, if there is one, may be at the high schools, not at the colleges.

  • Posted by A Science Instructor on July 26, 2006 at 11:25am EDT
  • Grades are to be understood as (published in many college catalogs):

    A = Excellent
    B = Above Average
    C = Average
    D = Pass
    F = Fail

    If all college classes are to be around 35% A's and etc. Are we advocating the arbitrary inflation of grades? Is American such a nation that everyone is ABOVE AVERAGE?

  • Posted by Mike on July 26, 2006 at 11:25am EDT
  • DJV: It is no secert that study time per credit hour is higher in intro math, physical science and engineering courses than in lower level humanities courses. I do not think it would be too hard to find data on this; I'll look around when I have time.

    My impression is that humanies programs offer large easy intro survey classes in the first year or two, but in their junior and senior classes students have to write 20 some page papers -- something I never had to do in college as a math major! (I do not know why the article says being humanies courses are small.) STEM programs have their hardest courses first, e.g., calculus.

    One thing colleges need to do is provide students with much better information about jobs and saleries verses grades in different fields. An engineering major with a 2.5 GPA may well make more money than an administration of justice major with a 3.5 GPA.

    But, there is room for change in how begining math and science courses are taught.

  • Posted by math prof on July 26, 2006 at 12:00pm EDT
  • From the article: "In English courses surveyed, 85 percent of those
    high-achieving students that were surveyed received A’s or B’s. That’s
    compared to 54 percent of those students in math courses."

    85 percent is extraordinarily high. 54 percent is a reasonable figure.

    From the article: "A 2002 Cornell Higher Education Research Institute study
    showed that grades in Cornell’s science courses are generally several tenths
    lower than other courses."

    This actually undercuts the author's thesis. The median grade at Cornell,
    according to the study cited, was 3.65. (Extraordinarily high!) In physics,
    which had the lowest median, the figure was 3.40. That's not a big
    disparity. These figures mean that overall at Cornell, over half the
    students got A's in their courses, while in physics almost half got A's.

    From the article: "Math and science are taught “vertically,” meaning students
    are often made to slog through two years of large, formulaic introductory
    courses that teach fundamentals before they get any taste of the hands-on work
    that makes a career in science attractive to most scientists."

    This is in the "News", not the "Views", section of IHE, but nevertheless
    the author has seen fit to editorialize. It is the case that in
    mathematics students need to have a considerable background before
    they can do original research. This is the nature of mathematics. So
    our students don't "slog through" introductory courses. Rather, they
    acquire the necessary background. Further, these courses are not "formulaic"
    either, except in the sense that mathematics certainly involves a lot of
    formulas, as well as a lot of logic, ideas, and beauty. Finally, mathematics
    and the sciences are hardly the only subjects that are sometimes (not
    always) taught in large classes at the lower levels.

  • Posted by Larry on July 26, 2006 at 12:40pm EDT
  • AD, In my experience, ironically “pre-med” students seem to be winging things more than “real” science students. They were generally anti-intellectual and would do whatever they could to get a good grade, and drop any course that didn’t bode well for them. Sure, this is a stereotype, but in my experience it was 100% accurate.

    A Science Instructor, Not all school use “C” to describe “average” but rather to describe “adequate.” It may very well be that a student is expected to master a certain subject, and all the students, having taken the course three times before at other schools (a fairly common tactic) “mastered” the subject.

    DJV, Whether the study time in non-science courses is higher or lower depends completely on the instructors. Unfortunately, some humanities and social sciences let people slide with little studying. Some undergrad programs are more demanding. Unfortunately, stereotypes and RMP will not help us figure out which ones, and graduate programs seem to have little handle on which undergrad programs objectively require the most.

  • It's the Teaching, Silly
  • Posted by Cato on July 26, 2006 at 12:40pm EDT
  • This just isn't that complicated. After 2 required science courses in college, observing my premed friends' classes, and now having taught for 20+ years, I know that math and science profs tend to be borderline autistic and seldom able to lecture well (and if they lecture well, they're inevitably not in tenurable positions).

  • Posted by Jane Robbins, PhD on July 26, 2006 at 12:40pm EDT
  • The hand-wringing over high rates of attrition in the sciences and engineering has been going on for at least 75 years. Historically, study after study has suggested that the primary reason for attrition is loss of interest in the field. The nature of coursework/design of the curriculum and teaching at the college level have historically been seen as one fundamental problem in keeping students, but another is attracting top students in the first place; students with top grades in science in high school, even when these are their best grades, frequently choose other majors that they perceive as offering greater breadth and complexity, diversity of career path and choice, and greater income potential. As one famous scientist put it in the 1920s, the best and brightest go elsewhere and science gets "the culls." Financial and programmatic incentives have done little to change the rates of attrition.
    The theory that difficult grading is forcing students out is just plain silly; while there are always a few students in any field who will seek the path of least resistance and resume-building--and why would you want them?--most will stick to a genuine interest regardless of whether they are getting top grades or not; they will also understand the limits of testing, especially in the sciences. Movement toward cross-disciplinarity; putting people into the classroom who know how to teach and evaluate, and care about it; and changing the manner and criteria by which students are recruited to be scientists and engineers (including into graduate school) should all help. But little is likely to change if it is always about meeting the needs of industry and labs, rather than figuring out what attracts students and providing a space in which students can exert creativity in applying what they know as they move into the world. Paul Romer's "new growth theory," which is increasingly used as a foundation for public policy, advocates tieing education closely to the occupational structure to produce research workers that can sustain existing industries and replicate and expand
    scientific ideas for economic growth. This is dangerous not only because things change and students can be trained for jobs that are no longer there, but also because it, well, bounds the educational track so much that students get bored and leave.

  • The Lake Wobegon Effect
  • Posted by Chris on July 26, 2006 at 12:40pm EDT
  • "Is American such a nation that everyone is ABOVE AVERAGE?"

    It's like Lake Wobegon writ large!

  • Posted by James on July 26, 2006 at 1:00pm EDT
  • While we should raise the numbers of science majors, especially if there are factors keeping them from enrolling and graduating, it seems clear that students are taking the easy social science route over the hard sciences. Sociology and Psychology are notriously easy, and graduates of these majors face more daunting job prospects and lower graduate acceptance percentages. We are a lazy nation, or at least we have accepted laziness, with the mandate to educated everyone, not just those qualified to learn. We need to start giving out lower grades everywhere, making it law that there is a proportionate amount of A's, B's, C's, and D's, or at least a semblance of proportion. There is not one single class where everyone does as well as the next, so the grading scale would work with some slight modifications for every class.

  • Science students get worse grades than non-science students?
  • Posted by Brian Manhire , Professor at Ohio University on July 26, 2006 at 1:05pm EDT
  • Science students get worse grades than non-science students?

    Do science students get worse grades than non-science students, and if so, how much worse?
    Here’s some info for undergraduate engineering:
    http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/~manhire/grade/BM050228_Final.pdf

  • The metaphor is the message
  • Posted by Unemployed science Ph.D. on July 26, 2006 at 1:05pm EDT
  • Perhaps the students in the "science pipeline" don't exactly appreciate being compared to crude oil (or sewage)?

  • Posted by Larry on July 26, 2006 at 1:30pm EDT
  • Unemployed PhD, Everyone is in a pipeline to somewhere.

  • Making science interesting
  • Posted by Grad Student on July 26, 2006 at 1:40pm EDT
  • Frankly, I find a lot of science teaching today to be uninspired, textbook-driven, pedantic, and overly technical. I studied physics in college (and eventually blundered into a degree in it), but my best physics teacher ever was the one I had in high school. He assigned no textbooks; we would pick real physics articles or texts from "the greats" (Newton, Laplace, Einstein, Schrodinger) and read them. It was great! We learned a lot about these scientists as people, we learned a lot of actual physics, but more importantly we learned what it was like to be a scientist, that a lot of the deeper problems in science are not obvious true/false questions but touch on issues of epistemology or metaphysics. Keeping those larger conceptual issues in mind -- e.g., the difference between Newton's conception of mass and Einstein's -- was what kept me interested in physics, despite some truly appalling college instruction.

  • Incentives are not enough
  • Posted by Grad Student on July 26, 2006 at 1:46pm EDT
  • Another thing that I feel quite strongly about is that simply "incentivizing" science study (an idea popular among libertarian types and free-marketers everywhere) will not make a nation of scientists. To be a good scientist, you need to experience science when you are young. To reach young people, you need to give them attractive and interesting ideas, not just the promise of easy money. If we know anything, it's that learning science is not easy. Science has to be learned as a way of life, part of one's cradle culture, to take root.

  • It's harder to grade low in humanities courses
  • Posted by LogicGuru on July 26, 2006 at 1:46pm EDT
  • There's no mystery why grades in humanities courses are higher than grades in sciences and math: it's easier to justify what students perceive as adverse grades in areas where student performance is easier to evaluate in quantitave terms so students are less likely to complain and argue about grades.

    When I teach logic I have no problem, just on the numbers, keeping A's to 20%. Students can't fight it--I can show them where they made incorrect moves in logic problems, and that's it. When I teach other philosophy courses that involve essay tests and term papers I have to write extensive comments on C papers, that don't deserve serious consideration, in order to "justify" that grade and brace myself for complaints and hassles.

    Quite a few students believe that humanities courses are bs and that any evaluation of essays is "just subjective." They've been told in high school that "there are no right answers" and take that to mean that there are no standards so that it's all a matter of sucking up to the professor and making the noises he wants to hear.

    People in science and math areas should try assigning and grading essays sometimes to see how this works before complaining that we in the humanities are soft on students. I'm in a position to compare and I can guarantee that there's a world of difference

  • Attrition of Science Majors
  • Posted by Jerry Pattengale , AVP at Indiana Wesleyan University on July 26, 2006 at 2:15pm EDT
  • David,
    Thank you for an informative and well structured article--and one with insightful comments. I would only urge caution in the notion of fewer students in this field. The numerous studies on millennials show that math and science are winning the day, not the humanities. See "The Millennials Go to College" and "Millennials and the Pop Culture" by Strauss and Howe. Also, this notion is found in the wonderful work of Bill Trent who heads the Gates project (he's at U.of IL). From my studies, the programs attempt to weed out instead of fertilize interest. One of the comments above notes this--failure to keep them interested. Butler University went to a transition counselors in their science and health areas to help prevent attrition. When a student was about to drop a subject, the counselor would step in and try to pinpoint the reason. This goes back to when Gwen Fountain was Dean of Learning. Thanks again for the article. JP

  • Size Matters
  • Posted by Helen on July 26, 2006 at 3:05pm EDT
  • I recieved my BA in English from a top tier University. The 1:299 effect applied to my grades as well-- I carried A's and B's in smaller courses while larger stadium seating courses with Readers provided me with B's and C+'s. Especially for sciences, smaller courses can dramatically help students understand and know the material necessary to their career. Scientists who are researching oncogenes should "know their stuff" in the business of progressing to an eventual cure. Unless English majors are intending to advance to the status of Literature Professors-- knowing how to properly explicate a passage and research criticism would get you an A for the course; but it would not be necessary to know the definitions of metonym, allegory, or allusion on the job.

  • Posted by Larry on July 26, 2006 at 3:05pm EDT
  • I think LogicGuru has a point. The humanities are not all subjective. The problem, as I see it, is that students think that “sucking up” will get good grades because 1) in all subjects there is antidotal evidence that it helps; and 2) nobody posts all test, quiz, and essay work (along with grades) for all students to see. Students would be much less likely to complain about their low grades if they would see how they stacked up to the other students. But, for some reason, humanities professors are reluctant to expose their student’s work, and their grading to scrutiny.

    Sciences, with textbooks, and at least some suggested right answers doesn’t have the problem, since, at a minimum, a student can compare their work to the one in the text. Of course, the irony in this, is that there may be more than one “correct” (that is, logically consistent) answer in many fields, or, at a minimum, more than one way to reach a single answer. One might not appear in the text because the authors deliberately or accidentally decided not to include it.

    GradStudent, There is nothing wrong with things being technical. Being able to understand the fine points of a subject is quite important. Understanding philosophy of science is important as well, and it should be a required course, but this is no reason to not be able to have a “professional” command on the state of the art in a subject.

  • Publishing grades
  • Posted by Amanda French on July 26, 2006 at 5:00pm EDT
  • Larry, you suggest that faculty "[post] all test, quiz, and essay work (along with grades) for all students to [see]." This is not a bad idea -- students would definitely benefit from seeing each others' work -- except that it's illegal under FERPA.

    It might be legal if you remove all the students' names, however. Even then I think it would be wise to obtain a signed release form from all the students.

  • Posted by Tova on July 26, 2006 at 7:10pm EDT
  • James, at my undergraduate institution, a top-20 liberal arts college, sociology courses had the lowest average grade given of any discipline, and physics had some of the highest. Plus almost every physics graduate graduated with the highest honors awarded. So maybe students are discouraged from continuing in science majors by what happens early on. But that doesn't mean that the upper-level courses in the socials sciences are hard. The average grades in the sociology courses I teach, for instance, tend to be between 3.3 and 3.4--not an average of C, for sure, but not like 85% of them have 8s.

  • Why we don't show model answers
  • Posted by LogicGuru on July 26, 2006 at 7:25pm EDT
  • In addition to legal issues, which are bigtime, assignments can be open ended so that comparative assessments by students aren't feasible. You can have student papers each on a different topic so that, in one sense, there "is no right answer" and students can't compare them even if teachers can rank them in the way that say journal editors rank submissions on completely different topics.

    When it comes to more structured assignments, like essay tests where the topics are set it's the same story. You get two, or more, students who complain that they studied together (perfectly legit, and useful) and so "had the same answers" but got different grades. You then explain that X's answer was coherent and well-argued while Y had just picked up some terminology he didn't understand and threw it together in a garbled way without any argument. Sometimes you can get this across but much of the time Y just insists that he had "the same answer" but got a lower grade.

    Grading subverts good teaching. I encourage students to take as many courses as they can pass-fail so that they can relax, enjoy themselves, and maybe learn something. It would be even better if assessment were done by external examiners so that we could teach without having to compromise good teaching in the interests of avoiding hassels with students about grades.

  • Posted by Steve on July 26, 2006 at 8:40pm EDT
  • Low salaries for science grads are the reason students are leaving their majors.

  • the legal issues
  • Posted by Larry on July 27, 2006 at 10:35am EDT
  • Amanda, I realize that you have been practicing longer than my almost decade and a half, but I am not sure that I should defer to your over-cautious interpretation of the FERPA, which, I presume is what you are referring to. The FERPA only applies to student “records” that are maintained by the institution. It does not appear to apply to contemporaneous documentation of performance on a specific assignment. If so, it would violate the statute (which doens’t actually provide for criminal penalties and is not privately enforceable) to tell a student that they are right or wrong if they answer a question in class.

    While well-intentioned, in many ways FERPA has hamstrung education. First of all, various people have used as a block against transparency. Other, well-meaning people have concluded that they can’t do basic evaluation and discussion, without even reading the state. Many lawyers, unfortunately, have not explored ways to reconcile transpranacy with whatever minimal privacy interests exist in the FERPA. Finally, still others have not read the statutes and regulations, yet still but that is anti-intellectual and has no place in academe.

    LogicGuru, Instead of saying that the legal issue are “bigtime,” you should identify and address what they are. I know you understand a lot about logic, but I think that your argument would be a tad stronger if you would tell us what these legal issues are. 20 U.S.C. Sec. 1232g(a)(4)(A)(ii) limits the definition of records to those which are “maintained.” Something that is never a record in the first place is not within the meaning of the statute, likewise, as I see it, some fleeting evaluation of a paper (without the aggregate grade) doesn’t implicate the statute. The regulations do not provide any more comprehensive definition, but you can take a look at 34 C.F.R. Sec. 99.3. Maybe you can use your logic to provide me with an operative definition.

  • Posted by Wowbagger on July 27, 2006 at 1:00pm EDT
  • Science courses take up proportionately more time than humanities courses. Humanities courses don't have labs. Labs typically take up about 4 hours a week per course. Writing the lab report takes up an additional 10 hours a week. Humanities courses typically ask students to submit a 6-page paper once every 3-5 weeks (or longer papers more spaced out). Science courses assign problem sets weekly, each of which take at least at long to complete as a 6-page essay. The greater volume of readings for humanities comes nowhere close to catching up with science course workloads. The workload I get from one science course is typically four times the workload of a humanities course.

  • Posted by Larry on July 27, 2006 at 2:20pm EDT
  • Wowbagger, Your description conflicts with my recollection of science and humanities courses. In taking the standard sequence of physics and chemistry courses, I never once spent ten hours on a lab report, and I consistently earned good grades in these courses. On the other hand, some humanities or social sciences courses consistently had problem sets every week, and others had longer papers. While there is some uniformity to science courses from school to school, there are a few competing models in most humanities courses as to what is the best way to teach. Perhaps you simply go to a school that has decided to make humanities easier than the sciences in order to encourage people to take them (not that there is anything wrong with that.)

  • Posted by Julia Chase on September 6, 2006 at 9:10am EDT
  • When I decided to go back to school to study mechanical engineering, I already had educational credits in the "softer" liberal arts type of courses. To get less than a B, I would have had to set the school on fire. However, once I started taking science and engineering courses, I met professors that seem to pride themselves in devising tests that nobody could pass. Sure, getting a 40 isn't bad...when the average is 45. To study science and engineering you have to realize that the grades are not as important..as long as you get through and learn in the long run. You really need a thicker skin short term. Though, this might not help if you want to keep your scholoarships and move on to grad school.

  • grading writing need not be inflated
  • Posted by Kevin Karplus , Professor at UCSC on September 6, 2006 at 12:40pm EDT
  • I have taught engineering students for many years without substantial grade inflation.
    I also taught a technical writing class for 15 years, and so have had to deal with the grading of essays (generally much more than the humanities faculty---our students were writing 5-10 pages a week, not 20 pages a semester).

    There is no excuse for grade inflation in writing classes, despite LogicGuru's assertion that students complain about low grades when they write lousy papers. I had no trouble giving C's and F's to papers that deserved them. Of course, engineering students were used to get bad grades when then did crummy work, so there were not many complaints. (The main complaints were about the F's that were given for plagiarism---it seems that plagiarism is either not detected or is condoned in lower-level writing classes.)

    Teaching the tech writing class *was* harder than teaching more traditional math and engineering classes. The material was easier, but the grading load was much higher.

  • Mentors Necessary to Reduce Students Leaving
  • Posted by Rey Carr , CEO at Peer Systems on September 6, 2006 at 3:10pm EDT
  • Students want more than just challenging course work. Too often science and engineering undergrad work is filled with memorization and uninspiring learning. Others have already commented about this in reaction to this article, and I can confirm their viewpoints. What is needed are professors who actually take an interest in their students (not just the subject matter); professors who are willing to talk about their life goals, question the students about their own life goals, and enter into more collegial discussions. I was fortunate to have such a professor during my undergraduate years, and his ability and willingness to listen and ask challenging questions helped me to find greater meaning and depth in science than I would have been able to do on my own. Every student ought to have this opportunity.

  • Posted by Dr.B76 , Dr.B76 on September 12, 2006 at 2:00pm EDT
  • I triple majored in Classics, Philosophy and Biochemistry at a top ranked institution. I can say unequivocally, that my science courses were far more rigorous. I spent a disproportionate amount of study time hammering at my science studies. There seemed to be a real elitist attitude in my science courses. I can remember a science Prof. providing students with change of major forms after the first exam of the semester. Pretty refined, eh? As screwed up as this sounds, I found the hostile environment intellectually challenging and went on to Doctoral studies.

    My experience in the Humanities was also very rewarding. I found the environment to be less tense and the material taught more accessible and very interesting. I would maintain the Humanities are analytically and technically less challenging. However, this should not be cited as measure of an ill disciplined field of study. There are many benefits of having a well rounded liberal arts education, which include learning how to, or about-writing papers, ethics, religion, philosophy, history, literature, government, psychology, music, art and on and on the list goes! People may scoff at the intellectual legitimacy of many of these fields, but they are most certainly real, and have had a powerful impact on our human development. So, go learn about them!

  • Posted by Marvin McConoughey on September 24, 2006 at 10:25pm EDT
  • As a non-mathematically inclined person, my perception of math and science courses is that they are intrinsically difficult for the vast majority of students, who are mostly non-gifted in math and science. The best approach may be to greatly increase K-12 math and science education. Then, when students enter college, they at least will have a fighting chance to pass technical courses that now often prove to have extraordinary washout rates. Like it or not, a lot of hours must be expended simply learning the technicalities through practice, memorization, and more practice. That was my own approach years after graduation when I found it necessary to learn sufficient mathematics to design a bridge. I did the learning, and design, without an instructor, and enjoyed the experience immensely.

  • Posted by H_blue on September 28, 2006 at 11:31am EDT
  • Let them go. They analyzed the effort versus return and could not justify the cost. Very practical.
    I've been looking at the other end of the problem lately. I have two sons and I want them to love science and math as much as I do.
    I'm thinking robot club.
    Most passion for science results in someone who works in their garage. The person that brings science home with them... the hobbist. Engineers and scientists joining clubs, talking to people with similar interests. Science as a job is all about the funding. Science you bring home with you is why you did stay in the discipline.
    Scientists have very little interaction with kids. Mostly because scientists don't want the kids breaking their stuff and kids have short attention spans. Thus science in the public schools is treated as memorize the flashy parlor tricks. If you want more scientists you're going to have to hang with the PTA and show kids why you love science. Show them why the joy is in working the problem toward a solution, not some inane chase after a razzle-dazzle outcome or a fancy sounding job title. Show them why science should be part of their life not just their career.