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Gun Rights vs. College Rights

September 11, 2006

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In a ruling that legal experts say could threaten the autonomy of public universities and the safety of their students, the Utah Supreme Court ruled Friday that the University of Utah cannot bar guns from its campus.

The university says that the ban will remain in effect, pending a federal court battle, where academic freedom arguments based on the the U.S. Constitution will be raised. Nonetheless, Friday's ruling angered college leaders, who saw it as a terrible precedent. "This is a violation of law and common sense," said Sheldon E. Steinbach, vice president and general counsel of the American Council on Education, which is backing the university in the case. "What's it going to take for those representatives in Utah to understand? Will they only be moved after there has been an unfortunate incident involving a gun-slinging student?"

Utah's attorney general, meanwhile, praised the ruling as "a victory for the rule of law," and he was joined by Utah lawmakers in pledging to fight for the right of students and others to bring guns on campus.

Banning firearms from campuses is a widespread policy -- and it doesn't generally vary from state to state, even though states have widely differing gun laws. The dispute in Utah dates to 2001, when Mark Shurtleff, the attorney general, issued an opinion finding that the University of Utah's gun ban violated state laws barring state or local entities from enacting restrictions on access to firearms. The university sued in federal court, charging that its academic freedom assured by the First Amendment was being violated, and also stating that Utah lawmakers had given the university considerable autonomy when they created it -- enough to allow the university to set its own gun policy.

A federal judge ordered that the state issues be heard first, in Utah courts, and that set up a series of legal hearings that led to Friday's ruling. In the Utah courts, the main question was whether the Legislature had granted the university so much autonomy that it could bar firearms from campus. In a 4-to-1 ruling, the court found that references to university autonomy were not as strong or conclusive as university officials asserted. Absent specific exemptions in various state laws, the justices said, the university is covered -- and that goes for the ban on restricting firearms.

"Although the university has broad powers, it is not completely autonomous, and it is ultimately subject to legislative oversight.... The Utah Constitution does not grant the university authority to promulgate firearms policies in contravention of legislative enactments, and it is not our place to do so," said the decision. If Utah citizens want their lawmakers to give the university the right to bar firearms, the justices added, they need "to express their dissatisfaction at the ballot box."

Utah legislative leaders have gone out of their way to say that they have no intention of changing the law and that they are annoyed with the university for implying that it wasn't covered by their legislation on guns. John L. Valentine, president of the State Senate, issued a statement about the court ruling in which he said: "I appreciate what this ruling does for the Second Amendment issue but, more importantly, it reaffirms that government by the people, through their elected representatives, is the law of the land. There is really no room for independent islands of authority within state government."

In a dissent, Chief Justice Christine Durham wrote that applying the logic of the decision, "the university may not subject a student to academic discipline for flashing his pistol to a professor in class."

The chief justice said that the majority decision implied that the university only had autonomy over what courses are taught and what may take place in a classroom. Such a definition, she said, is far too narrow, because "a university, by its nature, is more than the sum of its classes." She added that the university's autonomy should generally extend to policies designed to advance its education goals. In this case, she wrote, "the record ... contains extensive evidence that practitioners and experts in higher education are convinced that a no weapons on campus policy is necessary to the educational enterprise."

The logic behind the chief justice's dissent is similar to the argument the University of Utah now plans to take to federal courts. "Our central argument is that within the context of the First Amendment, there is the capacity to control the environment within which the educational dialogue occurs, so we are within our rights to take steps that are central to the free and open debate that you need at a university," said Michael Young, president of the University of Utah, in an interview Friday.

"If you think about what a campus looks like, people live in dorms and all over the place. They are relatively young, coming with varying degrees of maturity, and you are putting them in situations where they are in intellectual and social situations they haven't been in before," Young said. "In that volatile mix, you want to introduce real ideas, and you want those ideas debated and thought about. But you also want to eliminate any kind of possible physical intimidation."

He added that in the normal give and take of campus life, "things are different if you think the person you are talking to might be packing."

Utah is a state where many people do have firearms legally, Young said, and without the university's rule, many students would probably bring guns to dormitories and campus events.

Young stressed that the university was not anti-gun or trying to make any sort of political statement. The university has a highly competitive pistol team and a Reserve Officers Training Corp unit, he noted.

Steinbach of the American Council on Education agreed that the issue is university autonomy, not guns. And he said that there are real safety issues at stake for any campus leader. He noted that even if a given student knew about gun safety, there was no reason to believe others in a dormitory would know. And given the problems colleges already have with drunk students making poor choices, Steinbach said, adding guns to the mix in dormitories would invite trouble.

From a legal standpoint, Steinbach said that the authority for a university to control the educational environment was defined in constitutional terms in 1957 when U.S. Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter defined four elements of academic freedom: “the freedom of an institution to decide who may attend, who may teach, what may be taught and how it shall be taught.” Steinbach said that "inherent in that definition" is the ability of universities "to define the educational environment."

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Comments on Gun Rights vs. College Rights

  • Defining the academic environment
  • Posted by Craig C , political pundit at http://blogresponder.blogspot.com on September 11, 2006 at 7:50am EDT
  • So if the college says everybody has to attend class in the nude, that would be OK?
    It sure would be a nice environment.

  • Makes sense to me now ...
  • Posted by Carl , Mr on September 11, 2006 at 8:45am EDT
  • Since there are no laws prohibiting gang-bangers and criminals from carrying firearms on campus, why should there be laws prohibiting qualified, law abiding students from carrying? Criminals are capable of at least elementary logical thought, and thus can be deterred by the risk of confronting a victim who can fight back effectively. Conversely, criminals can be emboldened by the prospect of attacking a defenseless victim. Makes sense to me now ...

  • Posted by Joanne Yaffe on September 11, 2006 at 8:50am EDT
  • As a faculty member at University of Utah, I am wondering if the legislature will allocate funds for bulletproof vests for the faculty.

  • Reconsidering
  • Posted by S.D. on September 11, 2006 at 9:15am EDT
  • At first I was against the guns, but now, after some thought, I'm reconsidering. The questions is this: how often are teachers attacked by students and how often are students attacked by strangers? Bulletproof vests? If a student was demented enough to attack a professor, they'll do it with or without a gun. Do guns need to be allowed in order for a woman leaving the campus library and going to her dorm to be able to defend herself from a rapist? I have to agree with the prior commentor. If you make it known that guns are prohibited, won't that give the criminals (rapists, kidnappers for ransom, etc.) added security? I do understand the professor's fear. Perhaps he/she can apply at a private college?

  • end of the line for this case
  • Posted by Larry on September 11, 2006 at 9:50am EDT
  • I think there is some confusion as to the procedure. The Federal Court abstained from the issue, meaning that it thought that the issue should be decided by the state courts first. The problem is that as the “Supreme” arbiter of Utah law, the federal courts don’t have much more to say about the issue unless an actual issue of federal law exists. I don’t think there is one.
    This opinion is quite important for people outside of Utah – not just those who care about guns – because it shows how “autonomy” issues will be analyzed by the courts.

    And guess what – there isn’t.

  • Posted by Bob on September 11, 2006 at 10:00am EDT
  • So let me get this straight. You can't get a decent drink in that State, but you can bring a Gun into a classroom.

    It is your America!

  • Just wondering
  • Posted by MediaDoc , Associate Professor at East Carolina Univ. on September 11, 2006 at 10:01am EDT
  • I wonder if the usual suspects who defend the rights of 9/11 conspiracy theorists, Islamo-fascists, and cop-killers under the First Amendment (see today's "Frays on Academic Freedom" at this site) will be as quick to defend the RKBA rights of ordinary Americans.

    I suspect there'll a lot of "well-regulated militia" arguments as the day wears on -- an argument as logical, BTW, as stating that free assembly and free speech are limited to state-licensed clergy and journalists -- but few Second Amendment absolutists.

  • Concern
  • Posted by Jody , Adjunct at community college on September 11, 2006 at 10:10am EDT
  • I am actually baffled by several of the comments so far. Some actually make me wonder if they were written by educators...let's think about this: How would you (the authors) feel if as you stood in front of a class (which in some major universities w/intro classes could be a couple hundred students) and have to wonder, "is someone packing in my class today"? Talk about an infringement on academic freedom, not only for instructors but for all students in that classroom.

    My major concern is that this decision could cause multiple ripples in the whole U.S. as I work in a state that just passed a concealed weapons law. This ruling opens the door that someone could protest the various communities and institutions banning such weapons on their grounds or within their boundaries. Hopefully, my state wrote their law better (although I still really disagree w/the thing on a personal level).

    And before you point fingers, I grew up in a home where guns and hunting were a way of life (often put meat on the table type of hunting). I still own guns, have children who own guns, one child who shot competitive trap shooting during high school, and firmly believe the bottom line is most people don't have the education to treat guns with the respect they deserve (the guns don't pull the trigger; people do).

    Jody

  • This is not abouyt the 2d amendment
  • Posted by Larry on September 11, 2006 at 10:35am EDT
  • MediaDoc,

    First of all, this case is not about the second amendment. It is a dispute within the state of Utah regarding just how independent of the state the university is. This disputes come up quite frequently, but usually in the context of money and land. Not guns. No individual is asserting a personal right to carry guns. That isn’t the issue here.

    For what it is worth, my personal conception of the constitution puts personal gun rights into the 9th amendment, because the 2d amendment is somewhat ambiguous as to whether guns are, in fact, a personal right. Whether this is “logical” or not is anyone’s guess, but whatever the case, the Supreme Court has not held that personal gun possession is a fundamental right, but HAS held that political rambling ARE such a fundamental right.

    Even if you rely on a purely textual argument, the 1st and 2d are phrased differently. The first speaks in absolutist terms that restricts Congress. The second recognizes a right of “the people” to bear arms. Assuming that both are incorporated to the states, one still needs to define what “the people” means. To me, “the people” refers to the peoples who were in states that were signatories to the constitution and later joined, as the 2d amendment provides a bulwark against federal oppression of the states.

    My 9th amendment theory, while relying on the words “the people” avoids the problem of the hoary language relating to militias, and also allows states to reasonably regulate firearms, possibly taking a persons’ right to carry guns away after due process.

    But, that said, I do defend both the rights of 9/11 conspiracy theorists, “Islamo-fascists,” and cop-killers. I don’t really know what an “Islamo-fascist” is, since most terrorists have little use for the state, and therefore their ideology would be incompatible with terrorism. Luckily, I defend your right to express yourself, too, despite the fact that you are loose with terms and many would consider your non-legal analysis of legal problems to be distinctly unamerican.

    Finally, I am interested to know your definition of “ordinary Americans.” Are they just people like you? Are they people making less than $100,000 per year (by choice)? Perhaps some clarity on this interesting subject is needed.

  • response to Jody
  • Posted by Larry on September 11, 2006 at 10:35am EDT
  • Jody, I don’t see how this case could have ripples throughout the country. This only involves Utah law, and a fairly technical question of Utah law. It doesn’t even involve personal gun rights. Only the authority of the legislature – which has a preference for carrying guns – to regulate non-academic regulations of the universities.

    Assuming that it was about gun rights, it would not be binding on other courts, anyway. I appreciate that you are an educator, but I am curious as to how your reading of the opinion of the court conflicts with mine. Thank you for your time.

  • wonder if someone is packing today
  • Posted by don wikey on September 11, 2006 at 11:00am EDT
  • Why does a college professor believe that no one is packing (illegally) today? Why would a professor not prefer that the person packing not have been background checked via the permit process? What about the student who fears assault on the way from the parking lot to class, or on the way back? Now, THAT interferes with the learning atmosphere!!

  • Outside their expertise
  • Posted by Rick Schwartz on September 11, 2006 at 11:16am EDT
  • From the comments in the article it is obvious that the professors and bureaucrats against this are operating far outside their level of expertise.

    Not a single one has mentioned that in the 40 + states that allow CCW, and many of those in the colleges, there has been none of their dire forecasts come true. No professors shot in the classroom, no shootouts in the cafeteria, and no deaths in the dorm.

    One can chalk their silence on the facts up to ignorance or willful suppression of the truth.

    It is no longer intellectually honest for them to continue to falsely predict what “tragedies” might happen – instead, it is the duty of all responsible parties to report what actually has happened.

  • Posted by K.T. on September 11, 2006 at 11:16am EDT
  • Jody - are you saying, all educators should think alike? Are we not allowed to hold diverse perspectives?

  • Posted by K.T. on September 11, 2006 at 11:20am EDT
  • Thank goodness we are finally starting to see these laws/policies struck down... I know of a few others in the pipeline that should be helped by such a promising decision...

    As Thomas Jefferson said, "a strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion of your walks."

  • Posted by Frank Cannonito on September 11, 2006 at 1:15pm EDT
  • A student threatened to bomb me while I was a professor in the UC system. California law does not permit guns on campus, but I would have dearly loved to have been able to stash a shotgun in my office.

  • How Refreshing!
  • Posted by Mark on September 11, 2006 at 2:25pm EDT
  • I can't believe I'm reading these posts on Inside Higher Ed! You have breathed hope into my day!

    I always wonder a bit at the naiveté of those who wring their hands at the prospect of guns "suddenly appearing" in their situation because screened, trained, tested law-abiding individuals will no longer be prohibited from carrying them.

    Do you really think that there are no guns around you now? Do you imagine that your classroom is free of firearms, free of guns carried by those who pay no attention to laws "preventing" them? Stop, and think about whom you should reasonably be afraid.

    I agree that there are some security issues that must be addressed within a dormitory living situation. Legal firearms possessed legally by responsible people should be kept out of the hands of those who are not. Addressing security concerns is one thing, "preventing" everyone from possessing firearms, ends up preventing only those who care about the rule of law from possessing them. (Unless you're going to implement airport-like security procedures throughout your campus!)

    And, relax, the data is in. There won't be shoot-outs in the streets and classrooms. There will, however, be a dramatic drop in violent crimes and possibly an increase in petty thefts as criminal minds do a cost-benefit analysis and opt for less confrontational crimes. That trade off seems like a good one to me.

  • Posted by Jack Weaver on September 11, 2006 at 4:05pm EDT
  • Yes, K.T., Thomas Jefferson did recommend taking a gun along when walking for exercise. But guns on campus, where heated arguments may take place, are another matter. When he started the University of Virginia, Jefferson and his board forbade students to keep or use arms of any kind on campus:

    "No student shall, within the precincts of the University, introduce, keep or use any spirituous liquors, keep or use weapons or arms of any kind, or gunpowder, keep a servant, horse or dog, appear in school with a stick, or any weapon." (Meeting of the Visitors of the University of Virginia, October 4, 1824)

    Earlier, in speaking of general rules for getting along in society, Jefferson had advised a young relative to avoid argumentation, partly because of the incompatibility of argument with guns:

    "I have seen many, on their getting warm, becoming rude, and shooting one another." (Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Jefferson Randolph, November 24, 1808)

  • ‘Gun Rights vs. College Rights’
  • Posted by Bill Lawry on September 11, 2006 at 8:15pm EDT
  • It seems to me that an educational institution has two choices: 1) Have a policy that makes it a requirement that all incoming students take and pass a suitable firearms training courses or 2) provide airline security and armed guards to protect the campus.

    Instead of providing victim disarmament zones our colleges and universities should provide our students the means to responsibly defend themselves so they can prevail over violent felons.

    According to the analyses of Federal Department of Justice crime statistics "More Guns Equals Less Crime". Dr's. John Lott and Gary Kleck, both academic researchers, have written conclusively on this matter. Their work has been peer reviewed and their conclusions confirmed.

    Some educators feel that a woman raped and found dead in a ditch has moral supremacy to one found standing over her attacker. This is a corruption of any moral standard that holds life as our highest value.

    When Israeli schools were being shot up they armed willing students, faculty, and administrators with the result that there are no more attacks on their schools. Are our students less valuable?

  • what happens when an unstable student packs heat
  • Posted by S. Debray , Professor at University of Arizona on September 12, 2006 at 5:55am EDT
  • Responding to Rick Schwartz's comment "No professors shot in the classroom, no shootouts in the cafeteria, and no deaths in the dorm", I offer this incident at the University of Arizona in Oct. 2002, when a student, who was angry about being barred from taking a test, shot and killed three professors. Here's a link to the story at CNN:

    http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/Southwest/10/28/university.shooting/index.html

  • What a load
  • Posted by Brian on September 12, 2006 at 5:55am EDT
  • Yeah – there have been lots of gun fights at Utah campuses. Faculty babies - get over it. If the state of Utah where to make judgment regarding the freedom of speech (another freedom granted by the constitution of the United States), I am sure all faculty would be up in arms – pun intended!

  • First Amendment
  • Posted by Bill Lawry on September 12, 2006 at 5:55am EDT
  • " AMENDMENT I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of reli-
    gion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
    freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people
    peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a re-
    dress of grievances."

    I fail to see where the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives colleges &/or universities the power to restrict firearms in contradiction to local, state, or federal law.

  • Posted by Paris on September 12, 2006 at 5:55am EDT
  • I was raised to take guns hunting or to the shooting range. Taking them to work or school seems down right uncivilized (police officers, etc., excepted).

    If a student fears assault while walking to class, the problem is either far beyond the question of bearing personal firearms or the student is in need of counseling. The first instance requires community mobilizing and the second is a psychological. I would recken that on 99% of college campus, these two approaches are far more sensible than the provision of concealed weapons as I would rather students spend their limited funds on housing and books (or beer for crying out loud, but we are talking about Utah here) than on guns.

  • ‘Gun Rights vs. College Rights’
  • Posted by Ben Kukoyi, Ph.D.(C) , Faculty at Troy University, Covington Campus, GA. on September 12, 2006 at 5:55am EDT
  • The University has an obligation to protect students, faculty and staff. The obligation further goes into providing a conducive environment to learning, teaching, research and service to the community. However, these oblications has to be met in a way that it does not infringe on the legal rights of the people.

  • Ban worked so well at U of A
  • Posted by Forrest Gump on September 12, 2006 at 11:20am EDT
  • Yes S. Debray, the gun ban worked so well at U of A. OTOH, if someone other than the deranged student had been armed, perhaps at least one of the profs. would be alive today.

  • Universities are not Persons
  • Posted by Frank Clarke on September 12, 2006 at 1:25pm EDT
  • Only persons have rights; governments and their creatures have 'powers' granted to them by the people. A university, as a creature of government, cannot have any rights, merely powers delegated to them by their creator, in this case, the State of Utah. Use of these powers must not violate the rights held by people who come in contact with the U.

  • response to Frank
  • Posted by Larry on September 12, 2006 at 2:20pm EDT
  • Frank, While you are correct in your end analysis as applied to this case, you are not correct as a general matter. Corporations are also creations of the state. They enjoy various rights under the constitution (albeit somewhat less pronounced than individuals). See, e.g., Central Hudson Gas & Electric Corp. v. Public Service Commission Of New York, 447 U.S. 557 (1980) (First Amendment protects commercial speech of corporation from unwarranted government regulation.) Universities (even public ones), unlike other corporations, have long enjoyed protection because, when they are not worrying about the social lives of undergrads, preserve free inquiry. Most people are aware of Justice Frankfurther’s statement (quoting something from South Africa) in Sweezt v. NH, 354 U.S. 234 (1957), and concluding that the petitioner could not be forced to answer questions posted in an investigation of universities that sought to seek out “subversive persons.”

    But, this case is different. It doesn’t involve any of Frankfurter’s freedoms. It doesn’t involve anything the university even purports to teach. It doesn’t even involve the individuals rights of persons to carry guns.

  • Posted by Dennis Ruhl on September 12, 2006 at 10:20pm EDT
  • Brings to mind an old story. Thirty something years ago, at a Canadian university, my farmboy room-mate said to farm boy me "I've got a 50 pound box of dynamite in my closet but the blasting caps are in my trunk." I slept like a baby.

    The guy just wanted to go home on the weekend and blow up some stuff - still sounds reasonable to me. It takes more than a drivers license and a land description to buy the stuff today.

    I remember a couple guys had legally registered pistols in their room and managed not to shoot anyone. I imagine it was against university regulations but then so was everything else.

  • Posted by Kirk Parker on September 13, 2006 at 5:55am EDT
  • In a dissent, Chief Justice Christine Durham wrote that applying the logic of the decision, "the university may not subject a student to academic discipline for flashing his pistol to a professor in class."

    This is foolishness. Of course the university shouldn't be subjecting the student to academic discipline in such a case, it should be asking the local prosecutor to file charges of brandishing. What possible justification could there be for holding adult students to a lower standard of behavior w/r/t firearms?

  • read between the lines....
  • Posted by Ghost , Mr on September 15, 2006 at 10:10am EDT
  • The chief justice said....that the university’s autonomy should generally extend to policies designed to advance its education goals. In this case, she wrote, “the record ... contains extensive evidence that practitioners and experts in higher education are convinced that a no weapons on campus policy is necessary to the educational enterprise.”

    Now...what are the "education goals" spoken of? These educaction experts want complete control over the sheeple! They know that someone who owns and carries a firearm with them at all times is an independent, strong willed and most important of all responsible person.
    This person will more often than not hold a more libertarian, and or christian world view...something they certainly do not want in their classroom.
    The college is state supported! If they wish, they can become self supported in the free market place, and set policy the way they want. But, they will have to apply market forces to the equation. And this just would not do in today's society where education has become a right and carrying a form of self protection a privledge only doled out by the government when it sees fit. Good luck Utah!

  • churches, libertarians, and guns
  • Posted by Larry on September 15, 2006 at 12:15pm EDT
  • Ghost, First of all, some people on this board have been confusing the issues involved in this case. Obviously this case has nothing to do with personal gun possession or ownership. It is a question of the nature of this university and its ability to promulgate rules that might conflict with certain statutes.

    Where do you get those regrading political idealism and gun ownership from? Although I am not opposed to personal ownership of firearms (a discussion of my views on firearms and the constitution is beyond the scope of this board) there is nothing that necessarily equates firearm ownership with libertarianism. Indeed, in my experience there are quite a few people who think that 1) only people they agree with should be allowed to own guns; and 2) private gun ownership is an acknowledgment that the owner is “approved of” by the state.

    The words were not “educational goals” but rather “Educational enterprise.” Since we really are not rearguing the factual conclusions of the lower court, it probably isn’t worth going into the motivations of the administrators, since they are practically irrelevant to the legal issue.

    Finally, as to whether education follows the “Free market.” I doubt it. If the market were truly functioning according to free market principles, girls that saw colleges as a vehicle to “get married” would simply not go to college, as they simply do not want to earn more money than people without a college education. Likewise, college seems more to do with a “right of passage” than it does with acquiring actual skills. Not that there is anything wrong with this, but I would liken the college experience more to that of church attendance: it is something people like to do but don’t derive tangible benefit from it. Somehow or other, churches have survived and flourished (even without direct government support in the US).

  • Proves my point...
  • Posted by Rick Schwartz , Citizen on November 16, 2006 at 1:15pm EST
  • Thank you, Prof. Debray, of the University of Arizona for proving the point that "rules" will not stop a person from carrying a gun on campus. However, but, you utterly failed to connect this incident to a person with a valid CCW permit, which is what the whole thread is about. That's like complaining that a person without a driver's license who gets into a wreck calls into question the whole concept of driver's licenses. This elementary error of logic should be beneath a college professor.