Ms. Lippman, Let me see if I understand your argument. You think that MIT should encourage students to study abroad. Well, it seems they do. But, to what end?

First of all, many Americans that study abroad simply do not have any reason to. In most fields, at the undergraduate level there is little that must be done overseas.

Therefore, their “study” abroad is, at best, an overpriced commute, and, at worst, a vacation. Indeed, many former students that claim on their resumes that they “studied” abroad, only associated with Americans. What is to be gained by this? Do you really think that someone’s mind is really “broadened” by spending six months pubcrawling in England, and paying their university for the privilege. I mean, come on, students are free to travel as much as they want. They can take a summer and travel, and if they had good parents they undertook significant pre-undergraduate travel on their own (traveling in groups doesn’t count.)

Secondly, a concern over educational quality abroad is hardly bigoted or invalid. It might just be that foreign schools are of lesser quality. To dismiss this notion without actually inquiring into whether equivalent undergraduate education is better or worse shows that you are just pushing some addenda.

Finally, we need to admit that many study abroad programs are cash cows. They are staffed primarily by foreign adjuncts. No real graduate-level research is performed on the university’s foreign site. While this might not be a reason to dismiss study abroad programs, it is a reason to question many of them.

Larry, at 11:00 am EDT on October 16, 2006

As an MIT alum...

As an MIT alum (and one who almost never agrees with Larry) I think this could be a terrible idea. It’s not just about whether foreign schools are of lesser quality; it’s about the fact that students don’t usually seek out these kind of programs for the quality of research or teaching, and that no matter how good the science and engineering are, they’re probably not significantly better than MIT. Also, you have to factor in the cost of disrupting your undergrad education to start at a completely new school.

Between this and admissions director Marilee Jones’ comments about how high schoolers need more time to “play", I have serious doubts about the direction in which MIT is heading.

jcl, grad student, at 12:55 pm EDT on October 16, 2006

Good parents

What do “good parents” have to do with the ability to travel abroad prior to one’s undergraduate experience?! How many students do you know whose families were or are able to afford to travel abroad before college? If they can’t afford to do this, this does not make them bad parents! Please don’t malign families who are working hard to afford college tuition.

KLD, at 2:05 pm EDT on October 16, 2006

Well, since JCL and I agree, and we both disagree with Mr. Irons, I feel I need to respond to Mr. Irons:

The “value” of studying in another culture is negligible, since without a doubt students can be exposed to other cultures in numerous other manners. They can work or travel to these countries. There is little need to get an institution of higher institution involved.

Arabic, despite its rarified nature is taught in many schools in the US. While there may be some value in living in a country where it is widely spoken, such “immersion” is of benefit to only people who are studying the language. That said, speaking a foreign language is a useful skill, but unless you are a scholar of the language, it is hardly something that must be taught in an academic setting.

Middle eastern politics and economics can be taught anywhere in the world. The value of guest lecturers – the kind that can’t travel or appear otherwise – to undergraduates is limited.

Anyway, as JCL says, students are usually not doing this to undertake legitimate research or learning. It is just a party, and the comments at some at MIT (but by no means all) indicate that they want to turn it into an amusement park.

Mr. Irons ends his post with a political statement, which states that somehow the US will be harmed if students don’t travel abroad. Does this mean that Americans will somehow change their policies if they are exposed to the political ideas of foreigners? Is this really what Mr. Irons is trying to say. If so, I wish he would just say that he wants to change peoples’ minds by making them hang out in foreign countries.

(Mr. Irons said that my post was not well-thought out, but he did not provide specific errors, so I take it that he concedes that point.)

Larry, at 2:15 pm EDT on October 16, 2006

KLD

KLD, Families get maligned all the time for all sorts of reasons, most of which relate to their social class. In my view, good families allow their children to travel independently before they reach college.

Larry, at 3:46 pm EDT on October 16, 2006

Study Abroad

It would be helpful if Larry could offer some citation or proof for the conclusions that he draws about studying abroad. His argument that various topics, including language and culture, could be studied anywhere is as much an argument in favor of study abroad as it is against. There is however a significant difference between studying a culture and experiencing it. To argue that students “only associated with Americans” is an unsubstantiated generality and does not match up with the conversations I’ve had with students who have had international experiences. Larry’s dismissal of the value of immersion opportunities to learn a language as being something one can do outside of an academic setting misses the point that this period of students’ lives is exactly when they have the opportunity to engage in such learning. Once they’ve graduated and entered the workforce full-time they will not easily find semester long blocks of time that they can dedicate to something such as language skills. That argument is further flawed by the fact that virtually any subject could be studied outside of an academic setting. That argument added nothing to the discussion.

Michael Class, at 5:00 pm EDT on October 16, 2006

Define “Good”

“In my view, good families allow their children to travel independently before they reach college.” So, Larry, in your view, families that do not promote pre-college travel for cultural or socio-economic reasons are not “good"? While it may not be the responsibility of a university to provide opportunity for travel, it can be of tremendous benefit for the majority of students who have not been afforded such privileges prior to enrollment.

kgotthardt, at 11:05 pm EDT on October 16, 2006

Response to Larry

Thanks, Larry, for explaining your use of the word “good.” I believe we were referring to two different sets of socio-economic groups in our previous postings. You were referring to a group who could afford to send children to other countries prior to college, and I was addressing those who could not (because presumably, they are not in a financial position to do so). I know my parents could not afford to send me to college, let alone to Europe!

As to the question of the value of immersion or experiencing other cultures, my response would be that people who are exposed to a variety of cultures and beliefs tend to learn to accept differences, learn flexibility, and work more amicably in groups. It would be difficult, for example, for a student to live in a foreign country and decide, out of prejudice, to reject the entire culture of that country—the need for survival would persuade otherwise. In another country, and often in the multicultural United States, if you don’t bend, you break. I am quite sure there are stats and studies on this, and I would be happy to find some if you doubt my credibility here.

kgotthardt, at 11:50 am EDT on October 17, 2006

response to kgotthardt

kgotthardt,

First of all, let me respond to your comment that “It would be difficult, for example, for a student to live in a foreign country and decide, out of prejudice, to reject the entire culture of that country...” It turns out, that if an American student lives in a dorm owned (or leased) by his college and associates only with Americans or people who are paid to be around Americans, this is possible. Some say it is likely.

While I understand you point about the uses of the word “good,” as a practical matter, in our society we are defined in terms of our parents. From a purely class standpoint, having “good” parents (who usually are financially comfortable) will put people in a better position to attend college and they will not make stupid mistakes that others will. On the other hand, in my world, “good” parents make sure that there kids are independent enough to exist on their own BEFORE they go to college, and it is considered a shame if their children have not existed in unfamiliar territory BEFORE they enter college. I guess this explains my lack of tolerance for “student life” types.

Regarding whether people “accept” cultures (and “bending” to accommodate others), I don’t doubt your credibility, though I don’t know how someone could measure this. My point is that a desire to have other people “bend” is somewhat political. To illustrate, I will provide an extreme example of your point. For instance, I don’t think that Americans need to accept any culture that doesn’t accept the idea of women voting, driving, and wearing skimpy clothing. Yet, some argue that, having been exposed to other cultures where driving, voting, and wearing skimpy clothing is bad, that the Americans should accept such a lack of toleration. My guess is that most Americans agree with me that toleration is good. But in other cultures, toleration is no nearly as tolerated as is in the US. Indeed it is a staple of American politics and codified in our laws. However, if a large number of people were “immersed” in cultures that were less tolerant, then Americans might “bend” to the “less tolerant” viewpoints of foreign cultures, and begin discriminating or campaigning for laws that prohibit women from wearing little or no clothing.

Larry, at 12:15 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

MIT study abroad

My first job after college was in the MIT foreign study office, where part of my job was to promote study abroad programs. At that time—1972—probably 1 or 2 percent of MIT undergraduates studied abroad. So in 30 years there has been some success in increasing the number, if 15 to 20 percent of MIT undergraduates currently study abroad at some point during their degree programs. Then, as now, it was difficult for students to complete a degree and study abroad within four years.

C. Zelin-Herrera, at 4:45 pm EDT on October 18, 2006

‘When Knowledge Overtakes a Core’

Overwhelmed by the expansion of scientific knowledge, MIT has decided to allow students some choice in what sciences they learn.

It’s unfortunate that at the same time they will permit students less choice in the humanities and social science classes they take, forcing all of them to take a set of “foundational” classes “designed for freshmen.” No doubt some freshmen will benefit, but there will be others who are ready to take more challenging classes in these areas and will be just as bored and frustrated as they have often been in High School.

This move towards allowing incoming freshmen less choice and forcing them to take a prescribed series of very general classes makes money for universities, since such classes are usually large and much of the actual teaching is often carried out by instructors who are not full faculty members.

However, for serious students, the loss of flexibility and the ability to choose classes that are appropriate for the student’s needs, is a disturbing trend.

My daughter chose a college because it had few requirements but by the time she graduated lots of requirements had been added and were not “grandfathered in,” causing her many scheduling headaches. She was never a narrow specialist—she majored in history with minors in Japanese and mathematics. All the requirements just made her life harder and prevented her from taking classes that would have been a better fit for her and enriched her college experience.

My son has taken a huge range of history classes in high school. For him, being forced into a “freshman foundation” class in history would represent a serious dumbing-down of his education.

I think colleges should have a bit more respect for the ability of students to make reasonable choices for themselves. That’s part of becoming an adult. Make classes available, provide recommended sequences, have prerequisites where appropriate, and even require some distribution of subjects —but let the customers have the final say on what they actually take.

Margaret

Margaret DeLacy, at 5:41 am EST on January 31, 2007