Oct. 17, 2006

New Salvos on Affirmative Action

With Michigan voters weeks away from a vote on whether to ban affirmative action, critics of the practice are releasing admissions statistics that they say show the extent of the gap between black and white applicants admitted to the University of Michigan.

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The data reveal large differences in grades and standardized test scores, and indicate that black applicants are much more likely to be admitted, even with lower grades and test scores. These are the sort of data that have been influential in other states that have considered — and passed — statewide bans on affirmative action. “The people of Michigan have a right to know the extent to which discrimination is taking place,” said Roger Clegg, president of the Center for Equal Opportunity, which is releasing the data today and planning a series of events in Michigan to publicize the figures.

David Waymire, a spokesman for One United Michigan, which is leading the fight against the referendum, said that the data being released were “worthless” because they did not include breakdowns by economic class. He said that he believed the gaps in scores were largely driven by class, not race and ethnicity, and that this was just “the usual half-assed job” from the Center for Equal Opportunity.

The data came from the University of Michigan, which had to release the figures in response to the center’s Freedom of Information Act requests. Among the findings:

The SAT median for black students admitted to Michigan’s main undergraduate college was 1160 in 2005, compared to 1260 for Hispanics, 1350 for whites and 1400 for Asians. High school grade point averages were 3.4 for black applicants, 3.6 for Hispanics, 3.8 for Asians, and 3.9 for whites.
Black and Hispanic applicants in 2005 with a 1240 SAT and a 3.2 GPA had a 9 in 10 chance of getting in — while white and Asian applicants with the same scores had a 1 in 10 chance of getting in.
For undergraduates in the most recent year for which data are available (2004), 28 percent of black students had been on academic probation at some point in their Michigan careers, compared to 23 percent of Hispanic students, 8 percent of Asian students, and 5 percent of white students.
Similar patterns hold for law and medical school admissions. In the latter, for example, the data indicate that of applicants with an MCAT total of 41 and a GPA of 3.6 in college science courses, admit rates were 74 percent for black applicants, 43 percent for Hispanic applicants, 12 percent for white applicants and 6 percent for Asian applicants.

The debate in the weeks ahead is likely to be over what these numbers mean. To foes of affirmative action, they are the smoking gun about the use of racial preferences in admissions. To the University of Michigan, these are numbers without context or much significance at all (except perhaps politically).

Clegg of the Center for Equal Opportunity said that these data suggest that the university is paying more attention now to race and ethnicity that it was before two landmark decisions by the Supreme Court in 2003. Those decisions — one about the system used by Michigan to admit undergraduates and one about its law school — effectively said that colleges could continue to use affirmative action, but couldn’t have separate systems in which extra points were awarded across the board specifically for race and ethnicity. Clegg’s group was hoping at the time for the court to completely bar affirmative action, but he said that the data show that Michigan is violating the ruling that was handed down.

What the Supreme Court upheld was the use of race in a “limited and nuanced way,” he said, which is inconsistent with the wide gaps shown in the data his group is releasing.

Julie Peterson, a spokeswoman for the University of Michigan, released a statement in which she took issue with Clegg’s analysis, which she called “flawed and shallow,” noting that expert witnesses in the affirmative action cases had found that such comparisons are oversimplified to the point of being misleading.

The center’s analysis ignored key factors, she said, such as “the rigor of the student’s high school or undergraduate curriculum, extracurricular activities, essays, teacher and counselor recommendations, and socioeconomic status.” By ignoring these qualities about applicants, she said, “CEO attempts to reduce human beings to a couple of simplistic numbers. No top university admits students solely on the basis of grades and test scores. We consider many factors in order to admit a group of students who have diverse talents, who are highly motivated and who have the potential to succeed at Michigan and make a contribution to the learning environment.”

Peterson noted that after the Supreme Court rulings, the university revised its undergraduate admissions process to gain more information about students. “It is just plain wrong to imply that race somehow carries a greater amount of weight than it has in the past, or than the Supreme Court allowed.”

If there was one area on which Peterson and Clegg agreed, it was that the political stakes are high right now for data like the figures being released.

“It is no coincidence that CEO has released this report in the weeks leading up to a ballot proposal that would outlaw public affirmative action in the state of Michigan,” Peterson said. “This is a politicized attempt by CEO to narrow the focus of the debate to college admissions at a single institution, rather than acknowledging the broader potential impact on state employment and contracting, K-12 schools and public universities and community colleges, potentially affecting financial aid, outreach, pre-college and other programs that consider race, gender and national origin.”

For his part, Clegg said that he hopes the data will persuade Michigan voters to bar affirmative action. If they don’t, he said that the data could be helpful to others who may want to sue the university. And if you aren’t in Michigan, Clegg said that his group — which previously did a series of studies like the Michigan one — is planning another series.

— Scott Jaschik

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Comments

One of the canards about affirmative action is that it is about diversity, but affirmative action itself is not diverse, it targets specific groups leading to the depressing report above. What are truly diverse in this world are ignorance and want; when help is targeted to those suffering from those Dickensian evils it will receive strong societal support and will end the terribly divisive procedure of picking winners and losers based on appearance rather than need.

End It Now, at 8:25 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Not the worst of it

The acceptance of minority applicants with lower scores than competing white or Asian applicants is contrary to the values of merit and equal opportunity and could lead hurting the very minority students who it intends to help (by leading to lower graduation rates by mismatching). The worst moral position is from proponents of affirmative discrimnation who seem to care not one iota for the white students who do not get in though they worked hard to get the grades and test scores to be eligible. To say that the “effect on white students is minimal” is absurd. If the slot given to someone with a lower level of criteria was given racially neutral then that slot would go to some student who met the criteria. If AA did not give some slots to minorities who otherwise would have not gotten in and take some slots to whites who alternatively would have gotten that very slot then it would not help minorities and should not be pushed for. But AA does do this, this is why its proponents support it and its opponents do not. The opponents, though, realize that the white and Asian kids that are hurt by it are people too, and usually they are not part of some “rich, white, patriarchial establishment” but instead are middle class and poor kids who just have worked hard only to see their efforts trumped by folks who sacrifice them to feel good tokenism. For shame, end it don’t mend it.

Ken, at 9:05 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Numbers Can Lie

Apparently “End it Now” only read the first couple paragraphs of the article.

Try comparing apples to apples. The majority of White students who attend the U of M come from extremely affluent families. Oakland County is still one of the richest in the World. Many UM students come from this area. Very few of those students are Black or Hispanic. Compare the SES of the students prior to making a judgement.

Michigan is one of the most racially segregated states in America. We do not need the race bating perpetrated by Connerly, Clegg and their ilk.

Vote no on Proposal 2!!!!!!

Get a Clue, at 9:06 am EDT on October 17, 2006

grade point averages

What stood out to me was how high the GPAs of admitted Michigan students were across the board. White students admitted to U of M have an average GPA of 3.9? Can anyone say grade inflation? The GPAs of black students are closer to what one would expect across the board for admission to a state’s flagship University, I would think. The distribution also suggests that there may be a systematic bias among teachers that gives white & Asian students the ridiculously high GPAs reported in the data.

Joseph Duemer, Professor at Clarkson University, at 9:20 am EDT on October 17, 2006

We the Democrat

Well. Number can lie but not if all numbers/data are shown.

It’s time for the opposite camp to show data that support their claim. This is how Democrat work — Let people be the judge.

Duncan, at 9:20 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Strange argument from DS. As the justification for affirmative action DS urges us to “Compare the SES of the students prior to making a judgement.” If SES is Socio Economic Status I would be delighted to make that comparison directly, without adding racial discrimination to the mix. DS seems to use SES to validate the use of race, but why use race at all when you can use SES directly and target your help to those who need it?

End It Now, at 9:55 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Defending the indefensible.

One question for Julie Peterson: Are we to believe that the 9 out of 10 white and Asian applicants who were passed over in favor of black applicants didn’t have any credible recommendations, were not involved in extracurricular activities, were all sons and daughters of privilege, and were otherwise not up to the standards of the university? Spare us, please. Ms. Peterson et.al. exemplify the double standard that AA has tried to rationalize away for over a generation. The numbers don’t lie — you simply can’t handle the truth, and your attempts to kill the messenger are disingenuous and shallow. Higher education has become a de factor instrument of discrimination, and countless innocent white victims continue to suffer as a consequence.

Scott, at 9:55 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Comprehensive Review

Those are some fairly persuasive statistics presented by the anti-AA people and it would certainly seem as if the onus to show they are not related (or minimally related) to race is on the AA people. In California, where AA has been outlawed for about ten years, the AA group has skirted the law’s intent with a policy called “comprehensive review.” The former chairman of the University of California Board of Regents, John Moores, produced some evidence a few years ago that demonstrated that the CR policy was systematically denying opportunities to Asian and to a lesser extent white students while favoring Hispanics and African-Americans. For his efforts, Moores was censored by the Board. The problem would seem to be that neither the AA nor the anti-AA position is a very good one and no one, including the Supreme Court, has come up with a very good middle ground. Good luck Michigan!

Patrick Mattimore, Teacher, at 10:31 am EDT on October 17, 2006

The findings from the statistics pried out of the University of Michigan are essentially the same as those from the broader study, The Shape of the River, by Bowen and Bok — that students admitted by “race sensitive” criteria are given massive preferences and that they do less well in terms of grades and graduation rate than others. If the wardens of the yellow and blue have finer analyses to justify this they should make available those statistics as well.

junglegymn, Prof. at CUNY, at 10:31 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Fairness? Since when have we been a country that bases success on fairness and merit? Was slavery fair? Yes, yes, a long time ago, two wrongs don’t make a right. I agree. However, the fact is that our college admissions systems are trying to deal with elementary, middle, and secondary school systems that are incredibly unequal. And there are only so many spots available in college. Should those of us that have been rewarded with the best school systems continue to be rewarded with the best college educations too? And those with the worst continue to get what is left if anything at all? Maybe it is time for those us of who have gotten the privileges all along to step back and let those who have gotten little have a chance for once in our nation’s history. Then we can talk about fairness and meritocracy.

Laura, at 10:50 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Another history lesson not learned

A century and a half ago, politicians and other great minds were falling all over themselves to justify segregation, and even that “peculiar institution” of slavery. Before we the people were willing to reject these offensive notions, our Nation ran the gauntlet with the courts, we fought the bloodiest war in American history, and we established the roots for what continues to be a culture focused on differences — diversity rather than commonality.

So here we are again: Affirmative Action was and is nothing more than the misguided attempt to frame discrimination in politically correct terms. Unfortunately, our attempts to exorcise its evil effects may yet prove to be as painful and divisive as the problem that it promised to solve.

Russell, at 11:15 am EDT on October 17, 2006

AA

I don’t understand the mentality of only helping students of particular races. If the aim of affirmative action is to genuinely help bolster cultural capital and give chances to disadvataged or underprivileged students, why look at race at all. SES should be employed and be color blind. But the aim of affirmative action is not to help those in need, it’s to help only certain races reagardless of SES or level of cultural capital. According to Bok et al in “Shape of the River” just being black or hispanic automatically disadvantages a person in America. However, it’s hard to argue that a person who happens to be black, and who’s grandfather and father are both professionals and are wealthy, has less advantages or priveldges than a multi-generational destitute white person. It is important to have people of different backgrounds associating with and teaching each other. But finding differences based only on what they look like is wrong.

David, Helping Truly Underprivileged, at 11:35 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Regarding graduation and retention rates — read the Shape of the River a little more carefully. Bok and Bowen also point out that, although there are gaps associated with race within selective institutions — when one compares graduation rates across institutions by race — the more selective the institution — the higher the graduation rate. For example — Michigan’s most recently published 6-year graduation rate for African American students is almost 70% — yes, lower than the overall graduation rate of 86% — but considerably higher than African American graduation rates across the country and much higher than at less selective institutions (go to the NCAA website for comparisons if you’re interested). The data show the exact opposite of the conclusions that CEO and others draw. African American and Hispanic students graduate at higher rates at competitive/selective institutions than they do at less competitive institutions — even when their presenting numerical credentials are lower than the overall student body. The reasons for this are many — entering a culture of success, the work ethic and willingness to take risk by joining a predominantly white institution, the culture of inclusion at that institution, etc. But do not claim that Michigan or other universities are harming the very students they are admitting. The data prove the opposite. Furthermore, no where in this article or the comments is the legally compelling argument that a diverse student body is in ALL students’ best interests. The Supreme Court also recognized the importance of “critical mass” — how isolating it must be this year to be an African American freshman at UCLA this year.

Admissions is not gate-keeping — it is community-building.

Anonymous Admissions Officer, at 11:35 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Laura, Laura, Laura

I am the son of a woman who was left a widow at age 33, and with 5 children under 12. There were no food stamps, no aid to dependent children, no Habitat for Humanity, no welfare programs at all. Government surplus powdered milk, cornmeal, and peanut butter — those were the staples that we survived on throughout my childhood. I was given nothing, and I certainly don’t qualify as having been privileged. But according to you, I should step aside because my race and gender indicate that I am privileged. There are millions of me out there, with varying versions of the same theme, but according to you, we should step aside because, of course, we are privileged. Such narrow perspectives are not the stuff I would associate with an enlightened mind. How will you feel when it is your son whose Herculean efforts to excel are met with a roadblock not of his making, and beyond his ability to overcome? Get race and gender out of the mix, then there is equal opportunity. Factor either in and there is inequality. Do the math.

Scott, at 11:35 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Racial Preferences and Double Standards Must End

Once upon a time the term “affirmative action” meant treating people without regard for one’s race, gender, or ethnicity.

Over the past 40 years, that constitutional guarantee of civic equality has mutated and metastasized into an overtly racist and sexist reliance on double standards and weasel words.

The latest report from the CEO confirms the extent of that rot at the U. of Michigan.

The angst, aggression and guilt-tripping by the defenders of racial and gender double standards have reached levels that resemble a religious crusade.

It is time for the voters of Michigan, like their fellow citizens in California and Washington to strike another blow for civic equality by ending the arrogant and errant racism and sexism of the double standards defenders.

If anyone doubts what’s at stake, I suggest they read the new books by Juan Williams and Shelby Steele on what’s really holding back today’s black students,

Chuck, at 11:46 am EDT on October 17, 2006

CEO demonstrates that Black students with a 1240 SAT score and a 3.2 GPA had a 9 in 10 chance of being admitted. They fail to point out that a Black student in the state of Michigan has a 2 in 100 chance of graduating from high school, meeting UMich’s minimum eligibility requirements, taking the SAT and scoring above a 1200. To those who argue that the playing field is even, I say, let’s stop asking Black students to pay for the failures of the state to educate them.

JH, at 11:50 am EDT on October 17, 2006

Clegg, talkin loud but ain’t sayin nothin

If one did not know any better, Roger Clegg makes it sound like Univ. of Michigan is a HBCU. In fact, according to the Ann-Arbor campus’ ethnicity data of the 39, 000+ student body, White students account for 24,000+ (60%). African-Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans combine account for only 4700 students (12%). Asian-Americans account for 4700+ (12%). In the words of Jeffery Osborne, “We really don’t need no light to see through Clegg.”

kevin antoine, Director Office of Compliance & Diversity at CUNY/Staten Isand, at 12:15 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

The Outrage?

I really believe that the outrage expressed here is misplaced and disingenious, as it always is in reference to this topic. First, as is always failed to be mentioned, U of M in fact did offer points to those who came from underprivileged backgrounds (yes, this captures some of those poor whites). U of M also gave points to athletes, music students, etc (no outrage there). Next, where is the outrage at legacy admits, there is some research that finds that they have lower scores that non-legacies (yes, this does include those white celebrity and rich kids). Where is the outrage for those Asians, ostenbily, (unqualified) whites are also taking their spots (along with other minorities, right?). Come on you all, get off your high horses and examine the myth of “meritocracy” from a broader perspective. Or lets just continue to talk in this simplistic manner and I will continue to be outraged.

Outrageous, at 12:30 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

500 Years of Affirmative action

Rich whites have had 500 years of affirmative action——by guns, disease, and other means they have maintained hegemony over all things and especially the academy and social sciences. Move over and let someone else in. Test scores and GPA are social constructions and mostly BS. Are American Indians included in the stats or as usual excluded?

Michael W. Simpson, at 2:20 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

Many years ago a friend was in pre-med at U. of M. While he studied hard, he partied a bit too much for his own good and ended up with a 3.6 GPA in his science courses. He’d hoped to attend med school at U. of M., but he didn’t get in. Even though he had an English surname and grew up in a wealthy suburb north of Detroit, the next time he applied for med school, he checked the box next to “Hispanic” on the application form.Since his mother was born in Puerto Rico, he wasn’t falsifying the application; but 95% of the people who knew him considered him to be a rich, white kid from the suburbs. Can you guess what happened? He was successful on the second attempt. Go figure!!

Tommy, AA for a white guy (sort of), at 2:35 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

Get over it Mike

The state of Michigan attempts to offer the same educational opportunities to everyone, and those who excel — be they black, white, Asian, Native Americans or otherwise — are those who devote their energy to study and hard work. The fact that disproportionate numbers of some groups do not graduate is not a testimony to a failure by the state, and it has nothing whatever to do with your “500 years” of whatever; it’s a matter of applying ones time and talents to those things that one values most. Some choose the library, others the basketball court. Where’s the mystery?

Scott, at 2:55 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

I am still amazed at the ignorance that people have about AA. I am sure that just like in the Gratz case, there were some whites that were admitted with the same or lower test scores than some African Americans. But no one is yelling and screaming about that. I know it is difficult but get over the feelings of entitlement. Seats in a public institution should sit all kinds of students of the public. U of M is a public university-this is a diverse nation. All students from various backgrounds, GPAs, and test scores deserve an opportunity to be educated at U of M. This university should be applauded for showing the world how to be a diverse world class institution.

Andy, at 4:05 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

The Affirmative Action Debate

If affirmative action were simply a part of a larger effort aimed at overcoming the academic achievement gap between white and black students,I don’t think we would be having this debate. Most Americans, particularly those in academic life, see the gap as a legacy of centuries of discrimination and for reasons both pragmatic and moral, agree that narrowing that gap is good for society.

But affirmative action has come to mean a great deal more and has added many features which do not have the same measure of support. Among these:

Preferential treatment for women many of whom come from extremely privileged backgrounds.

The extension of “protected class” status to an ever-increasing number of racial, religious, ethnic and other aggrieved groups, qualifying them for compensatory treatment.

The development of a pervasive ideology of institutional prejudice that divides the world into victims and oppressors. These beliefs take on ever increasing importance as the demands grow for more preferential treatment.

The ideology of class, race, and gender oppression is increasingly supported by the creation of bureaucracies of diversity offices, departments of compliance, diversity training facilitators, as well as entire new academic departments and centers devoted to identity advocacy. These highly political developments have affected such university activities as hiring, promotions, honorary degrees, student activities, curriculum requirements and academic planning.

The establishment of speech codes and anti-harassment regulations which attack a problem of “hate on campus” that largely doesn’t exist and serves the role of marginalizing legitimate criticism of any activity that is claimed to be promoting diversity.

The problems facing admissions offices in terms of recruiting a diverse student body are rooted in the failures of k-12 education and at least in the short run, only marginally affected by higher education.

What colleges can do is create summer programs for talented high school students to help students from poorer schools prepare for college and to provide academic support services for students once they get to college.

But we must accept that the ultimate responsibility for the education of a student falls on the student. This is not a moral point so much as a facing of reality. No matter how compelling the life story of hardship and no matter how much we would like to help, a student who is woefully unprepared for college at age 18 is going to have to spend a lot of extra time studying to catch up. We can schedule remedial courses, provide scholarships, offer extensive academic support, and above all have a lot of patience, but we can’t supply the will to make the effort.

Whether the MCRI passes or fails, the educational mission of giving access to students with hardships is still a worthwhile goal and can still be pursued because virtually everyone within academia supports it. If the controversy over affirmative action forces us to focus our attention on the job of educating our students and away from promoting divisive ideologies and wasting vast amounts of resources on essentially useless bureaucracy, it will indeed have served a useful purpose.

Jonathan Cohen, at 4:30 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

Library vs. Basketball Courts

Affirmative Action was never meant to be a long term solution. It was an interim fix to a long term problem; this is not to denigrate the numerous ways it has helped women and minorities. It still amazes me, however, that people assume that everybody has equal life chances. Yes, there is an element of human agency (read: studying and hard work). But to focus entirely on that aspect ignores the structural challenges that face certain members of society more than others. Should children be punished for being born to parents who were poor, or minorities? Should they be punished for going to public schools that lacked structurally sound buildings, desks, textbooks or dedicated and qualified teachers? The more important question is whether these things are rights are priviledges. College admissions won’t be completely merit based until the playing field up to that point is leveled out.

Ashley, at 4:30 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

Mental gymnastics

One way to tell that AA is somewhat indefensible intellectually are the bizarre arguments advanced to support it. Someone has already noted that if underpriviliged students are your target, then most who oppose race based admissions would accept a SES based one. But when Clinton floated this idea he was howled down by the racial spoils crowd. Now we have the usual ‘get over your sense of entitlement” argument. But AA is the epitome of an entitlement: whether in quota (a certain % of seats reserved for a group [a ‘critical mass’ one might say]) or ‘advantage’ (a certain amount of points reserved for race alone). Someone mentions that those poor white kids get helped by points for geography or extra-curricular activities. But of course minority kids can get these points too, but poor white kids CAN’T get the minority points. Again, we get the argument about 500 years of oppression and unequal schooling. These should not be dismissed out of hand, they are real concerns. But do this thought experiment: a poor white kid who went to a bad school and is certainly NOT responsible for slavery (in fact his ancestors may have died to end it in the Civil War, though we don’t punish or reward folks for the acts of their fathers) gets no help and indeed discriminated against by AA. Wanting to see more equality in college and success is a decent enough goal, but AA is simply not the way. A rich minority CEO’s kids will get a bunch of points that a white janitors son will not. Surely this is unfair and counterproductive to anyone’s goal. Lastly, legacies are wrong too and need to be junked. Most AA opponents would readily agree I think, so let this red herring swim back to sea...

Ken, at 4:35 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

Professor Duemer’s comments on the GPAs of students ACCEPTED to UM are misguided. One need only look at the number of applications that a tier one school such as Michigan receives to realize that only the “best of the best” (i.e. highest scoring) will be admitted in such a competitive atmosphere. For example, a few years ago Harvard’s admissions folks announced that they had received 2200 applications from high school class valedictorians! They literally could have filled their freshman class solely with the number one students from those high schools. One would expect that those GPAs would be very close to that 3.9 average. Inflation may have an impact due to AP courses, that tend to offer a bonus (e.g. 4.5 for an A instead of 4.0), but not enough to smooth things out into a normal distribution. The truth is that the academy has created this situation by basing admissions upon competitive academic criteria. GPA, class rank, SAT/ACT all serve to cluster students into groups that then fill out the classes with similarly scoring applicants. The admissions decisions are not based upon a desire to study a subject or allegience to an institution but rather to a set of competitive scores. Those who earn those scores feel entitled to continue their education in the elite schools that hold out admissions as the golden apple for the elite students. In a large industrial state such as Michigan, a flagship university with the academic reputation of UM will be inundated with applications, with no shortage of them scoring in that 99th percentile class. Having chosen to base admissions decisions upon such quantitative academic measures these schools will end up with nothing other than students whose resumes are all alike. The taxpayers of Michigan help fund the education of these “best and brightest” at their flagship and relegate those who score lower on these criteria to the other and lesser state schools. Everyone in the state knows how these other schools match up in the rankings to UM, so it should not surprise anyone when families of students who have also scored in those rarified atmospheres are told to go elsewhere. This is exacerbated when Affirmative Action is misused. The definition of Affirmative Action was that when choosing among people with equal qualifications, preference should be shown to members of a protected group that had historically been discriminated against. This idea has been tossed in favor of giving preference to those who have not met the equal qualification requirement. This means that (a) someone else IS being discriminated against on the basis of their race (or other non-protected status) and/or (b) the admissions criteria being used are the wrong ones in the first place. Perhaps it is time the academy take a look at itself and how it defines worthiness.

Michael Class, at 5:15 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

The Truly Disadvantaged

Okay, some of you all want to judge merit strictly by the numbers, that is GPA and SAT/ACT scores. It would seem that those who are truly “discriminated” against are Asians and Indians. Multiple reports have found that Asians (Indians included) score higher on the the SAT and ACT than whites and other minority groups, and have GPAs that are the same or higher than them. Hell, in the book the Bell Curve, Hernstein and Murray, in a footnote, find that Asians score 15 points higher on IQ tests than whites. Yet, as is the case at the U of M, whites are in the numerical majority. If we strictly went by the numbers, Asians, should in fact be the majority of students (definitely at the elite schools). Moreover, there should not be a narrow focus on blacks or hispanics in terms of “taking spots,” there should be a focus on those unqualified whites who took spots from (more) qualified Asians. Yet, the discussion surround blacks/hispanics who make-up a significantly smaller percentage of the population of students at universities across the US. Seriously, at Notre Dame legacies make-up 25% of the entering class. This pattern exists at other elite schools (that is Harvard, etc.). Who predominately benefits from these programs—rich white kids. There are very few schools where minorities (blacks and Hispanics) total 25% of the overall college population, this is certainly not the case at elite schools. It would seem that those who are truly disadvantaged are Asians, but this occurs for the benefit of rich whites. Please, do not lump them together. Now, do we want to talk about why whites are taking Asian’s spots? Or will the conversion continue to make thinly veiled attacks on the (lack of) intelligence, (lack of) motivation, and overall unworthiness of blacks/hispanics?Umm...

matthew, Outrageous, at 5:15 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

No Argument withThat

Anonymous Admissions Officer makes a good point drawn from the more reliable part of The Shape of the River, that Blacks preferentially admitted to selective institutions graduate at a higher rate than at less selective institutions. I have no argement with that finding, though the situation is quite the reverse at selective law schools, as Prof. Sander has pointed out in the Stanford Law Review. The point remains that those admitted by racial preference make less effective use of the opportunity a selective school like Michigan provides than might those more formally qualified who are denied admission by the preference policy. Regarding “community-building,” AAO is advised to read very carefully the second half of The Shape of the River, where post-college experiences are described from questionnaires rather than records. Here their positive findings are much eroded by 1)response bias (many of the Black sample were signalled by the cover letter from the United Negro College Fund that this research was about race while the White sample remained naive)and by 2) response rate bias (those in the White sample who had done less well in college responded at a higer rate than those in the Black sample who had done less well). Regarding “diversity” and educational quality, one aspect of the true diversity of Michigan that permits it to remain a great university is that its faculty includes Prof. Cohen, the philosopher, whose critique in Commentary of the Supreme Court’s collective reasoning in Gratz and Grutter is worth reading carefully. Or read the several decisions themselves to see what sense can be made of the concept of “critical mass.”

junglegymn, Prof. at CUNY, at 6:10 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

What about the scores?

So far we have placed so much credit on GPA and test scores. Someone mentioned grade inflation, but what about race and gender bias on standarized tests? Why are different races scoring so much lower in these tests? Is this also a socio-economic problem?

I guess I only have questions!

Omar, at 6:10 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

Grade Inflation?

What basis or proof is there for suspecting grade inflation? The numbers given are an average. U of M is a selective school. The grades are commensurate with the SAT scores. You have no idea how many AP, IB and Honors courses factor into the GPA. It is irresponsible to automatically assume grade inflation.

Betti Tiner, at 6:10 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

Does anyone remember this small fragment of a long-ago speech?

“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”

Question: Are AA policies and practices tantamount to judgment by color of skin? Yes or no.

Raymond, at 6:30 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

it’s not race

Why only race? Many years ago a study was conducted entitled something like “Why the Rural Gifted Continue to be Neglected", which was about WHITE kids in rural zones who are our nation’s brightest, but do not get services, precisely because they are white and the cities, who have large minority populations, get the attention and money! So why just talk about minorities when we cheat a portion of our brightest out because they are not wealthy and they are in fact white? Can also tell you that in chicagoland, it is your wealth that dictates your child’s education IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE THE CITY. No magnet, charter, or non-secular schools for our kids! No, we get rundown, behind-the-curve rural schools which we pay thru the nose for in our taxes. Meanwhile, the minorities in the city get the best schools. Is THAT fair?

kathy, at 7:05 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

I am always amazed at the contentious remarks and complete lack of understanding or misunderstanding of the impact that slavery, Jim Crow, de-facto segregation has had on race relations in this country. First, it is a history that we (African Americans,Whites, Asians and Hispanics)are quick to say happened before our time. Second, we really do not want to admit that all of us are the products of our history. Third, it appears that whenever we try to adjudicate the impact of the wrongs of the past, such as Affirmative Action programs, we reach a standstill and all of the biases, anger and ignorance that racism feeds on are released. It immediately becomes a them (African Americans, Hispanics) and us (Whites)conflict. I have read all of the comments, to date,and I must note that noone has mentioned the impact that “white privilege” plays in this on-going debate. If I have grown up in a world that I think is made for me, why would I want it disturbed or adjusted to include the “others". If I have grown up in a world that is my entitlement because of my race, why would I want to share it with people who it appears are less than? They are not white, their GPA’s are lower, their SATs/ACTs are lower. We know that their IQs are lower—who do they think they are being admitted to and graduating from Michigan? I mean why is diversity so important? My world is a world of white privilege—not a world of diversity.As long, as there are people, like Roger Clegg, who tries to maintain a predominately white environment of white privilege, the mention of “affirmative action” will result in angry denouncements, concillatory explanations and contrite fear—all of which we have read in response to this article. Where is the concern about the changing economy? The students who are not graduating from high school? The students who hate school? The teachers and professors who take out their insecurities on students? Where is the concern about the talent we are losing as we debate the rights or wrongs of Affirmative Action? The whole of these concerns is being devalued by the fact that noone wants to admit that racism exists, that white privilege exists and that the legacy of slavery exists. Until we are willing to admit that the history, birth and life passage as a White person is completely different than the history, birth and life passage as an African American or Hispanic person, we will continue to debate affirmative action. It is time to get over it-get over the statistics, get over the assistance that some people need (black, white and hispanic)to achieve success. Michigan,as a public institution of higher learning, is on the right road. When tax payers are accessed to support higher education in Michigan, noone asks a question about race, GPAs or ACTs.

Lorena, at 8:35 pm EDT on October 17, 2006

More Affirmative action?

To all those who talk about unequal life experiances, I simply ask this: who has the right to decide who had a harder life and hand out benefits accordingly? What would any of that have to do with performance?

We spend to much time talking about how to socially engineer some “fair” system and not enough worried about actual academic performance which has gotten lost in a flood of left-wing racism.

Kevin, Undergraduate, at 5:30 am EDT on October 18, 2006

White Privilege or liberal guilt

Perhaps rather than discussing white privilege it might be more appropriate and relevant to discuss the phenomenon of liberal guilt.

For it is liberal guilt that makes it possible to rationalize the immorality of compelling the child of a just-arrived Romanian waitress (who committed no historic race wrong) to bear the burden of providing a race-based remedy to the grandson of an African-American millionaire (who suffered no historic race injury).

On the subject of legacy preferences, a question occurs. Would those who argue in favor of race preferences by equating them with legacy preferences be content to end the former if the latter were ended too? Somehow one suspects the truthful answer is “no".

Agog Aghast, at 5:30 am EDT on October 18, 2006

GPA

I stand corrected on my grade inflation remark above. But it remains clear to me that many minority students are badly educated in the K-12 system. UM cannot of course right all wrongs, but that should not keep them from trying to right some wrongs. Personally, I would like to see a need-based financial aid system that was sensitive to class.

Joseph Duemer, Professor at Clarkson University, at 9:26 am EDT on October 18, 2006

It’s plain and simple. Level the playing field for everyone and just hit the delete button on AA. It’s discriminatory no matter how you view it. And it doesn’t just apply to college admissions. How about the minority job candidate who gets the job offer (over an equally qualified—or even more qualified—white candidate) because the employer is afraid to get caught up in the AA web?

Legacy? That’s a political and financial club that MOST of us are not qualified to join. Discrimination at it’s best!

Bottom Line: If you need a 3.5 or a 4.0 gpa to get in, it shouldn’t matter what color you are. If you need an M.B.A. to get the job offer, enough said.

Christy, at 10:25 am EDT on October 18, 2006

This has truly been one of the better comment discussions I’ve followed. Professor Duemer is absolutely correct in his second posting where he comments on the quality of the K-12 education that is being offered to inner city students, the majority of whom are of African American descent. This does indeed lead to an uneven admissions playing field, especially at tier one elite schools such as UM. As powerful a response as an AA plan may be to correct for such historic bias, AA alone can never be the total solution. Offering admission to the brightest minority students is a fair response to them, but does nothing to right the wrong that has been done and continues to be done to the 99% of minority students by our K-12 education system. Until we level the K-12 playing field, i.e. offer a true primary and secondary education to all students we’ll be stuck with quotas, quasi-quotas and a higher education market that continues to systematically discriminate on the basis of race.

Michael Class, at 4:45 pm EDT on October 18, 2006

Julie Peterson’s lackluster response to the CEO reports assumes that the enormous ethnic and racial gaps found in U-M’s admission policies are due solely to essays. I doubt it.

Jonny Slemrod, at 5:05 pm EDT on October 18, 2006

End Product Quality

There needs to be more discussion of what happens when the subsidy process succeeds in graduating the benificiaries of AA. I’ve worked for large corporations for 35 years in positions where critical thinking and effective writing are required for success. I’ve found that many graduates of of all backgrounds and privileges in higher education can neither think nor write. But I have to say that I’ve found that those with the benefit (?) of AA are overall the worst. It seems to be a matter of policitical correctness propagating right into the corporate world because these poor performers have been coddled all the way through the educational system and their dubious abilities have never been challenged. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had stars from all backgrounds. But commerce needs SMART graduates, not graduates who have been told by implication that they are smart.

Bruce Harvey, at 4:25 am EDT on October 23, 2006

An African-americans point of view

Many of those that are in opposition of affirmative action do not believe African Americans care about those other applicants that are not accepted to colleges and universities, we in fact do care. However, unless you are a minority than you can not possibly understand what we go through. I want to give you a picture of a hard working African American college student. An, average day for me involves studying basic mathematics and English that I did not master in high school. Although, I did graduate on top of my class, and had a very high g.p.a, I did not master the basic material, primarily because of the lack of preparation, and rigor which was given to me. Most of my family praised me for doing well, but failed to understand what I was actually learning. I am now in my senior year, and I am soon to graduate. When I look back over the years and realized how difficult it was, I feel very proud of myself. I did not have fun like the rest of my cohorts, rather I studied hard to catch up with what I should have learned in high school. This meant not hanging out with friends, and not being able to have any social life. I worked a part-time job to have money to eat and have some fun once in awhile. See, my family does not understand the importance of education that I so desperately desire, so I paid my way through college along with some grants and loans. I am not upset about it because I know that it’s not my families fault. The fact is that education was not offered to African-Americans and other minorities like it was to Caucasians. Over, two hundred years ago I would have been killed for the education I received. Our families are still suffering from this today. See, I am the first to graduate in my family, so I can help those in my family achieve the same way I did! I am not writing this for sympathy, but to share an African-Americans point of view. I am not only an African-American but also a male which places me at the bottom of the list for expectancy achievements. I am expected to be in jail, uneducated, and amount to a live of poverty. African-Americans are the poorest, unhealthiest, and powerless people in America. So, do I think its fair that I may get a slight advantage in admissions to a college or University. No. But, what’s more unfair is the treatment that African-Americans have to face in the United States. My ancestors were brought here against their will, and made to work. They were never repaid for there suffrage. If, African-Americans do poorly on standardized tests than it is Americas fault. They brought us here, and have failed to educate us. They least they can do is give us an opportunity to change things. Take a look around you, how many black lawyers, doctors, teachers, scientists, businessman and entrepreneurs do you see? When you look at movies do you see more African-Americans professional or more thugs and criminals. I see very few professionals, and it’s difficult for me to aspire to do great things when I have accomplished more than so many, and less than a few. I have to live with this for the rest of my life. In some cases I have had to show my college ID, just to prove to people I am not a criminal or want to engage in deviant behavior. I grew up in Philadelphia, were the crime rate has soured to the highest in the nation. Why? Because, most Philadelphians are black, and receive low expectations. So, when you consider grades as the most important aspect, think of all the other obstacles most of us had to endure. I don’t have the highest gpa or test scores at my university, but I have accomplished more than most students will in a lifetime. I have to work harder than most, I out pace most students. I also pay a tutor $40 an hour to help in areas which I have weakness. So, to me affirmative action gives blacks and other minorities a chance to succeed, and make our families and communities better. Caucasians have had there presidents, vice presidents, scientists, and so many others. Why shouldn’t minorities have a chance? In fact it is very important that we do! Think of all the powerful achievements that African Americans have made to the world. Take a look at Dr. Benjamin Carson, who is one of the world leading pediatric Neurosurgeons. Think of Collin Powell, and what he has done for the United States, and the thousands of other African Americans that have contributed to society.

Reece, Two hundred years of eduction inequality at UNC, at 6:00 am EDT on October 24, 2006

Me, Me, Me

AA supporters want to harp on the continuing effects of past discriminations. A very valid argument. AA opponents want to harp on the unfairness applied to the hard-working (and in some cases, disadvantaged) white male, among others. Also a very valid argument.

But, at least by and large, it seems neither side cares about the unfairness to the other side due to the presence or absence of AA. Instead, most people want to argue about how this affects me, me, me. There seems to be little to no acknowledgement of the unfair effects to the other side. No matter how much either sides tries to deny this unfairness, it’s there both ways.

With or without AA, someone gets the short end of the stick. I’m not saying whose is shorter or whose, if either, is more justified, but if most people started being honest about this two-way street, I think both sides could achieve a more progressive dialogue on this issue.

Adam, at 10:05 pm EST on November 17, 2006

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