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The Complications of Free Speech

October 18, 2006

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After students stormed the stage and blocked a talk by an anti-illegal immigration activist, Columbia University President Lee C. Bollinger, a First Amendment scholar, quickly criticized the protestors’ actions.

“This is not complicated,” Bollinger said in an October 6 statement, released two days after student protestors disrupted a talk by the founder of the Minuteman Project, Jim Gilchrist. “Students and faculty have rights to invite speakers to the campus. Others have rights to hear them. Those who wish to protest have rights to do so. No one, however, shall have the right or the power to use the cover of protest to silence speakers. This is a sacrosanct and inviolable principle.”

Yet, for some students coming to grips with the fallout from the now infamous incident, the principles guiding protest protocol are more volatile than inviolable, the boundaries of free speech rights anything but “not complicated.” Indeed, student leaders say many of their peers support the obstruction of the speech, and several student groups have released ambiguous responses to the event.

“For some students, there’s a concern that the term ‘free speech’ is being used too loosely,” said John K. Johnson, a second-year law student and the University Senate representative for Columbia’s law school. “It’s a concern because when you use that term, with its symbolism and history, it ends up shutting down what can be an objective discussion.”

“I’ve really heard everything,” said Christopher Riano, a senior who, as chair of the student affairs caucus within the University Senate, represents all 24,000 Columbia students. The essential question of whether storming the stage constitutes a valid form of protest has been the subject of a healthy debate. Some students believe that the protestors were within the bounds of their own free expression rights when they stormed the stage, Riano said, while others think that by doing so, they were suppressing Gilchrist’s free speech rights.

“You can count me squarely in the school of thought that says climbing on the stage crossed the line and was not appropriate,” said James Applegate, a professor of astronomy and member of the University Senate’s executive committee. “It’s kind of a no-brainer. You can have a peaceful protest but you cannot prevent a legitimately invited speaker from speaking.

“I think most of the people are basically going to agree with Bollinger that the protestors should not have done what they did.”

But a number of statements from student groups regarding the protest present a blurrier picture. On the one hand, the Engineering Student Council joins Bollinger and Applegate in condemning the protestors: “Students of this university cannot allow irresponsible acts of civil disobedience that promote the rights of one over another. The ESC is disturbed that any students of this university, no matter how few in number, would take part in abridging the right to free speech that this institution grants to all its members.”

However, a statement from the Student Governing Board of Earl Hall, a group that oversees all political, religious and activist groups at Columbia, is more vague, both asserting the right of any speaker, regardless of the “repugnance” of his or her views, to freedom of expression, along with the right of students to “express their dissent vigorously through various forms of protest” – in effect not taking a stand regarding whether this particular form of protest, that is, storming the stage, is something to be supported.

Meanwhile, a statement from the Black Student Organization, while stating its members’ position that “the right to free speech is an important question to ask about this event and our university community,” also raises a question of its own about the incendiary nature of the talk.

“We are upset with the manner in which the Columbia College Republicans organized their speaker event. This event did not use the right to free speech responsibly to create a space for dialogue. Instead this event intended to foster prejudice against Mexican migrants and Muslims,” the statement reads in part. The president of the College Republicans, which sponsored the lecture, did not return a request for comment; nor did two student protest leaders.

Law students have also questioned the time, manner and context of the speech, Johnson said, wondering whether it was designed to incite protest rather than provoke vigorous academic debate. And they have wondered why the university does not have clear or consistent policies about when context matters.

For instance, when the university recently revoked its controversial speaking invitation to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a known Holocaust denier and Islamic fundamentalist, almost immediately after extending it, officials said the event was canceled because the university was unable to organize the speech so that it would “reflect the academic values that are the hallmark” of a Columbia event. In that incident, Johnson said the administration paid attention not only to the Iranian president’s free speech rights, but also to the context that would plague an attempt to use the speech as a forum for meaningful academic discourse. In a private university such as Columbia, Johnson asks, rather than a strictly public setting, does context matter when it comes to establishing limits on free speech rights? 

Applegate said he doesn’t believe that any new guidelines on speaking events at Columbia are necessary, and added that he fears anything resembling a speech code that could have a stifling effect on debate. But Riano said that student leaders are working with administrators to help formulate potential new guidelines that would provide students with a clearer sense of the extent and boundaries of their speech rights on campus in the future.

Students are asking a number of questions as they move forward, Riano said: “The debate even goes further than was it right for them do this, was it not right for them to storm the stage, where do you draw the line on free speech? We’re even discussing whether people have a right on our campus to bring one view and not necessarily challenge that view."

“Is it OK at Columbia to peacefully go up onstage, or is it not OK to do that? What exactly is defined as appropriate protesting? Does every speaker have to offer a question and answer session?”

“This has been debated. There might not be a real answer to what free speech is."

Yet, a First Amendment expert said the fact that students are even debating whether going up on stage is a legitimate expression of free speech rights is “chilling.”

“It seems like they sincerely believed that they had every right to jump up onto the stage to actually disrupt the speech, that it was part of their free speech rights. That’s absolutely wrong; you don’t have a free speech right to disrupt an event,” said Greg Lukianoff, president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.

“They see it as being so clear what the right opinion is, that of course you can go out and censor wrong opinions. Wrong opinions have no value. But for anyone who really cares about the values of a free society, the idea that students have gotten into their head that they have a right to silence opinions with which they disagree – it’s chilling.”

The Protest

In its immediate coverage of the event, Columbia’s daily newspaper, The Columbia Spectator, reported that protestors took to the stage minutes after Gilchrist began talking. Two students in the International Socialist Organization held a banner saying, “No human being is illegal,” sparking other protestors, and then Minuteman supporters, to storm the stage. An ensuing brawl involved more than 20 attendees.

While it's clear that critics of the speaker took the stage when Gilchrist was starting to speak, some issues are in dispute. A Minuteman spokesman, Tim Bueler, said that Gilchrist was “assaulted” and his speech and glasses stolen, while Karina Garcia, a senior who spoke for the protestors in a Spectator opinion piece, wrote that their peaceful protest “was met with violent attacks by Gilchrist's goons. We were the ones who were punched and kicked.”

A Columbia investigation is underway, and students suspected of involvement will be sent letters alerting them of possible charges this week, The Columbia Spectator said Friday in its latest report on the incident. The university is also attempting to identify outsiders who may have participated.

The Arizona-based Minuteman Project solicits citizens to monitor the Mexican border. The group, founded in 2004, declares its commitment to peaceful means on its Web site – “The Minuteman Project is not a call to arms.” It also states that it has no affiliation with, and will not accept assistance from, separatists, racists or supremacy groups.

Yet, the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Report, a quarterly magazine released by the Alabama-based nonprofit civil rights law firm, which tracks the activity of hate groups and extremists, quoted one armed member advocating that “[i]t should be legal to kill illegals.” The publication also quoted another member with a semi-automatic pistol strapped on as saying, “You get up there with a rifle and start shooting four or five of them a week, the other four or five thousand behind them are going to think twice about crossing that line."

However, Lukianoff pointed out that there is no exemption in the First Amendment for hate speech.

“This was an attempt at censorship. Censorship is not compatible with a free society,” said Lukianoff, who added that he thinks universities perpetuate a culture in which “incorrect” viewpoints aren’t tolerated.

Rather than go onstage, he said, students could have conducted their protest outside, held their banners and signs within the auditorium’s seating area, or worn T-shirts expressing their views. Storming the stage could be seen as an incident of civil disobedience, Lukainoff said, but only if the protestors did so with the intent that they would accept the designated punishment.

However, another observer of protest rights on campuses said that the students were well within their rights to go onstage. “The students had a right to unfurl banners at an event,” said Heidi Boghosian, executive director of the National Lawyers Guild, a liberal bar association that has supported the protestors. “Some people have asked, ‘Well, was it crossing the line to go up on the stage?’”

“I don’t think that’s crossing the line.”

“We don’t think they caused the violence; they weren’t going to stop Gilchrist from speaking; they just wanted to stand there and hold their banner while he spoke,” Boghosian said.

“In addition to a crack-down on dissent in this country, there seems to be a waning tolerance for civil disobedience. If you want, you can call the act of jumping on the stage an act of civil disobedience, a practice that has been used for hundreds of years in this country to resist tyranny,” said Boghosian, who added that she believed the university would likely have given the students just a “slap on the wrist” if the situation had not turned violent.

Columbia’s administration declined to elaborate on the fall-out from the Minuteman protest last week. Even the university’s press office denied a request Friday, saying that it was not accepting media inquiries on the subject.

A call to the dean’s office was referred to a voice recording featuring Columbia’s official statement on the incident: “This much is a matter of core principle at Columbia: that freedom to speak, to pursue ideas and to hear and evaluate viewpoints totally objectionable to one’s own is an essential value to this university, and indeed, to our civil society.”

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Comments on The Complications of Free Speech

  • Welcome to anarchy
  • Posted by B.D. on October 18, 2006 at 7:00am EDT
  • A Harvard professor once said famously after his departure that what he missed most was "the anarchy."

    It is matters such as Columbia that close millions of wallets to higher education. The obvious, violent indolerance to ideological diversity.

    I asked God today if she gave her permission for the "protestors" to act as they did. She said she hadn't. How unfortunate.

  • hundreds of years of civil disobedience?
  • Posted by MQS on October 18, 2006 at 7:20am EDT
  • Hundreds of years of civil disobedience? Please, Student, give me the historical data. I am trying to remember how many hundreds of years it was tolerated in THIS or ANY country to do what you did. I am remembering that Martin Luther King wrote his letter from jail. Emerson visited Thoreau in jail, too. I'm not a student of history--I just remembered a couple of examples of how civil disobedience was tolerated in this country within the last couple hundred years. Maybe you are thinking of since you became a teenager?

  • Student Arrogance
  • Posted by Jonathan Cohen on October 18, 2006 at 7:45am EDT
  • The article is quite frightening. The video of the storming of the stage is disturbing enough but the attempt to justify it by the activist community is an indication of something far more troubling. The activists are claiming that the views of the Minutemen on the subject of immigration are so repugnant that they, the self-selected "activists", have the right to prevent the Minutemen's views from being heard.

    There is a tradition of non-violent civil disobedience that has at times played a noble role in our history. In those actions, primarily sit-ins of various sorts, the protesters were not physically threatening and the protesters were prepared to accept the consequences of their actions. The Columbia activists are asserting their rights to silence those with whom they disagree.

    Sadly, this is a reflection of a much deeper problem with current academic culture. While the rushing of a stage is sufficiently over the top that few college administrators will allow it, the imposition of speech codes and anti-harassment policies have on numerous occasions been used to suppress constitutionally allowed speech.

    On many campuses there are significant numbers of faculty, students, and administrators that consider opposition to affirmative action, abortion or illegal immigration to be a form of "hate speech. Having labeled such views as bigotry, they feel free to suppress such opinions by enforcing speech codes, bringing charges of harassment or in the case of Columbia, physically preventing people from speaking.

    In the past couple of years we have seen faculty suspended for arguing with students distributing anti-Israel literature, students censured and publicly condemned for protesting affirmative action and in the worst case of all, a group of 88 members of the Duke faculty unashamedly condemning a group of lacrosse players for a crime that amost certainly never occurred.

    President Bollinger is right to condemn the storming of the stage and the silencing of an invited speaker. But he shouldn't be surprised that it occurred at his university. After all, he was the one who responded to charges of systematic anti-Israel bias and the suppression of dissent in the middle-east studies program by appointing a committee to investigate, many of whose members had signed a divestment petition.

    The storming of the stage at Columbia was clearly a violation of free speech by almost anyone's standard and deserves to be roundly condemned. But we need to look further at the extent to which the academic culture has become intolerant of dissent. The columbia event may very well be a harbinger of what is to come if we don't start taking a closer look at what is going on in academia.

  • Emily Post...where are you when we need you?
  • Posted by MLM on October 18, 2006 at 7:45am EDT
  • The beauty of all this is that a our community is engaged in deepening our understanding of what the costs are in having free speech... not to mention the requisite good manners to protect everyone's right to it even if what they say inspires the passion reflected in students' reaction. Yes, events like this remind us that we can always do it better.

  • Posted by K.T. on October 18, 2006 at 7:55am EDT
  • James Madison's warnings of mob rule continue to enter my mind when reading about this incident. It's unfortunate that, perhaps, the educational system has failed to give these students a proper respect for our civic culture and an appreciation for diverse perspectives.

  • What Is Free Speech?
  • Posted by T.A. on October 18, 2006 at 8:25am EDT
  • In all the political science and law classes that I've taken, I've always been told that you have the right to free speech up to the point that your right begins to infringe upon others. Clearly, in this case, the student protesters rights infringed upon the free speech rights of the speaker; however much I disagree with his opinions.

    I think this reflects a larger problem in this country where people think they can selectively choose whose rights should be protected and whose should not. If we agree with it, than sure protect it, but if we don't then lets silence it. You can't have it both ways. Either everybody has free speech or, in the end, no one will.

  • Posted by Manny on October 18, 2006 at 9:20am EDT
  • Let me say that I do NOT support the so-called Minutemen or subscribe in any way, shape or form to their political message. But for the protesters to adopt the posture of the victims, and circulate their
    absurd on-line petition, is beyond the pale. Methinks they doth protest too much. The protesters got what they wanted - forcing the
    speech to be cut short, which was their goal. What perversion of logic and distortion of reality supports their claim of abridgement of their free speach rights?

    I recommend Columbia impose some sort of disciplinary action against the protesters. As punishment, I recommend sensitivity training so that the protesters will
    recognize and understand the concept of freedom of speech and how it should be valued, especially in a university environment; I recommend diversity training for the protesters so that next time they will contemplate their knee-jerk reactions to
    anyone who doesn't subscribe to their political viewpoint; and I recommend mandatory enrollment in a logic class so that the protesters can recognize their distortion of fact. That way society can hope for
    something good coming from this debacle.

  • Disruptions vs. Heckler's Vetoes
  • Posted by John K. Wilson on October 18, 2006 at 9:20am EDT
  • The key distinction here is between a short disruption vs. stopping a speaker from being allowed to talk. It appears that the Columbia students planned and conducted a small disruption. And yes, rushing the stage and doing such a disruption should be prohibited and subject to minor penalties. But it's not clear to me why order could not have been restored, the protesters ordered to leave the stage or be arrested, and the speech continued. Sadly, some of the protesters celebrated the cancellation of the speech, but it's not obvious that this was the aim or necessary effect of their actions. The best thing for Columbia to do is to set out clear rules for campus speeches and bring back Gilcrest to speak again.

  • Hypocrisy?
  • Posted by Unapologetically Tenured on October 18, 2006 at 9:26am EDT
  • It's hard to argue with President Bollinger when he says that "[s]tudents and faculty have rights to invite speakers to the campus. Others have rights to hear them." The question is why this should not also apply to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    Now, because many people who visit this site love to take things out of context, let me make my feelings clear: I consider the Minutemen to be a troubling vigilante group, and I think many of their members are motivated by fear, ignorance, and racism. But they are not nearly as despicable as the Holocaust-denying President of Iran. I have no interest in attending a talk by either Mr. Gilchrist or Mr. Ahmadinejad.

    But that's not the point. President Bollinger shut down Mr. Ahmadinejad's talk just as surely as the protestors silenced Mr. Gilchrist. And if you read between the lines (does anyone really believe this was primarily a logistical issue?), it certainly seems as though Bollinger and the protestors acted for more or less the same reasons, believing that a speech by such an individual would not "reflect the academic values that are the hallmark" of the University.

    The protestors' actions, of course, make for a much more dramatic video. But (repugnant) speech was silenced in both cases.

  • No, Not Surprised
  • Posted by Joseph Duemer , Professor at Clarkson University on October 18, 2006 at 9:26am EDT
  • I was going to say how surprised I was that none of those condemning the student protestors' behavior above didn't take a moment to condemn the calls of Members of Mr. Gilchrist's group to murder people trying to cross from Mexico into the US. They surely have the right to make such statements, but reasonable Americans need to meet those statements with the most powerful condemnations. Instead, we see our politicians cozy up to the bigots. And in this forum, instead of condemning hatred & bigotry I read comments from people who are wetting their pants because some students took this bigot seriously enough to organize a protest.

    I haven't seen the video. I don't know exactly what happened, but as a veteran of protests in days gone by, I can well believe that the students were attacked after peacefully unfurling their banner. If they stopped this son of a bitch from speaking, that would "cross a line," but what about Jim Gilchrist? No condemnations for one of the leaders of the New American Nativism? I'd argue that his speeches are an incitement to violence. One has a moral obligation to stand up to bullies & bigots. But the discussion here amounts to a bunch of hand wringing about those awful activist students. Pathetic. Shameful. But, no, I'm not surprised, not really. It is about what I have come to expect from my fellow-citizens.

  • Refining the concepts here
  • Posted by Larry on October 18, 2006 at 9:26am EDT
  • I didn’t want to get into this debate, because of its extreme silliness, but I think that Mr. Cohen proceeds from a false starting point.

    In the US, what speech is “free” is usually determined by what the a government entity prevents. Neither Columbia or the students are a government entity. I am unsure of exactly who did what to who, but unless someone was assaulted, it is unlikely that any actual crimes were committed, since the students were actually invited to listen to the speech.

    Whether academic culture is “intolerant” of dissent remains to be seen. The fact is, that these were an isolated group of kids. No professors were involved. No faculty stormed the stage. Whether the “Minutemen” represent a dissenting viewpoint, an extreme fringe group, a bunch of wackos, or the majority viewpoint in the US (and hence, not the dissent) is also a gray area.

    Moreover, Mr. Cohen, the administration of Columbia has behaved admirably, and simply condemned the students behavior. So, it is a stretch to claim that they are “intolerant” of dissent, if you assume that the “Minutemen” are dissenting.

    TA, Your views of “free speech” are not necessarily correct. To say that you have a “right to free speech” to the point that it “infringes on others” [rights] is somewhat of an oversimplification. Unfortunately, political science courses are usually taught by non-lawyers, and law classes are taught by lawyers that enjoy condescending to undergrads. We live in a country where, in any given location, at any moment, there are several, perhaps hundreds of intersecting rights an immunities. Columbia is free to invite anyone they want to speak. Columbia also invites students to the campus (in fact, this is what pays a good chunk of Columbia’s bills). The students on Columbia’s campus permitted (and have a right) to pretty much do what they want on campus, and Columbia could likely not enlist the power of the state to eject them from the hall since they were not trespassing. The Minutemen have a right to speak, but not necessarily to use Columbia’s facilities and to use them a way that is unmolested by students. Indeed, many exercises of free speech, because they enjoys constitutional protection interfere with other peoples’ ability to express themselves. So, in reality, no speech is truly “free.” Anyone can heckle it. They just can’t enlist the power of the state to suppress it.

    It may be that various crimes were committed by the students, but the students did not actually violate anyone’s constitutional rights, because the constitution only restricts state entities. (This is something that I don’t think most academics get, for some reason.) At the end of the day, ironically, the minutemen get their message out. The students get their message out. Both messages are rather simplistic and trite.

  • Irony
  • Posted by Bill , Professor on October 18, 2006 at 9:26am EDT
  • There is something delightfully ironic in watching the diversity of ideas being trampled on in the name of diversity. I wonder if any of the poor benighted fools who participated in this onslaught gave a second thought to their own obvious intolerance. Through their intolerance, they did more to validate the speaker's message than they did to hinder it. In Talleyrand's memorable phrase: "It was worse than a crime, it was a blunder."

  • Free Speech Legalities
  • Posted by kgotthardt on October 18, 2006 at 9:50am EDT
  • Larry writes, "(regarding freedom of speech)....because the constitution only restricts state entities." This is a confusing concept to me. Are you saying that if an institution is private, it has the right to remove anyone who speaks out in a way the institution might find offensive? What if that institution is supported by public (state or Federal) funds? Where are the lines drawn?

  • Larry, You May Be Right...but
  • Posted by T.A. on October 18, 2006 at 10:10am EDT
  • Larry, you may be correct about my explanation of free speech being an oversimplification because I am not a lawyer. I also do realize that many, many rights do intersect. However, if you are a lawyer, you are in the minority of people in this country and it should not take a lawyer to understand a concept that this country was founded upon.

    In that spirit, if everyone agreed to abide by my "oversimplification", I doubt it would take an army of lawyers to figure it out.

  • answer for kgotthardt
  • Posted by Larry on October 18, 2006 at 10:50am EDT
  • kgotthardt,

    You asked: Are you saying that if an institution is private, it has the right to remove anyone who speaks out in a way the institution might find offensive?

    I answer: yes.

    As you noticed, the issue gets a little more complicated when funding is received by the institution from a government. On one hand, the mere receipt of some funds does not obligate a school to act just as a government entity would. On the other extreme, when a school starts to appear more like a “company town” (i.e. the state imposes criminal penalties for doing things in a town that is completely owned by the entity), then First amendment rights begin to flower again. (See Marh v. Alabama, 326 U.S. 501 (1946)).

    Most of the time, students enjoy a contractual and/or “property” relationship with the university that prevents the university from restricting their expression and/or receipt of ideas, so it isn’t too much of a problem. Moreover, cognicient of the benefits of free discourse, and the Supreme Court’s writings regarding how legitimate academe enjoys a “special place” in our constitutional scheme, universities usually do not wish to structure their relationship with students as that of indoctrination, but more of a provider of property and resource for free inquiry. The universities figure that the universities, as an institution, would lose their “academic freedom” (as a component of the 1st amendment) if they start restricting students and faculty.

    Finally, there are some state and federal statutory provisions that condition the receipt of some funds upon the vitality of some areas of free speech. This isn’t really a constitutional argument per se, but rather a valid exercise of either Congress’ power under the commerce clause or 14th amendment, or a state’s police power.

    Now, the issues are not too easy. In fact, most of the non-legal media has confused most of the court decisions in this area. I.e. Hotsy was widely reported as allowing public universities to restrict speech, when it was really a question of whether a state actor could have reasonably known their actions were unconstitutional.

    As to where the exact lines are drawn: that is why we get paid the big bucks.

  • Minutemen advocate murder?
  • Posted by Natrium on October 18, 2006 at 10:50am EDT
  • Be careful about news organizations using unsourced and anonymous quotes. Remember the Reuters and AP fauxtography. Remember Dan Rather...

  • The Constitution
  • Posted by GR on October 18, 2006 at 11:15am EDT
  • To kgotthardt -- It is true that the Bill of Rights to the Constitution (including the First Amendment) only restricts the government from infringing on someone's rights of free speech, religion, assembly, etc. A state university is thus constrained by the legal principles embodied in the First Amendment. But a private university may indeed bar access to its campus by anyone it wishes, although the overwhelming majority of academic institutions as a matter of choice recognize the value of academic freedom and free speech and have policies that reflect those values -- but the Constitution does not impose it on them. As for those who receive government support, that by itself won't make a private school a government entity subject to the Constitution, but you are correct that at some point the line blurs. That's why we have courts -- to draw those lines.

  • not a surprise
  • Posted by Pluto's Dad on October 18, 2006 at 11:16am EDT
  • "the idea that students have gotten into their head that they have a right to silence opinions with which they disagree – it’s chilling."

    I don't know why he's so shocked. Most people on the Left that I know believe this, and even I believed it when I was in college and a far leftie like everyone else. (Note I don't use the term "liberal"). We were right! They were wrong! We are the victims not them! They have ruled for centuries; their voices don't need to be heard ours do! etc.

    This is how kids think, and the Left. Look at every socialist country that ever existed. Even Europe STILL has laws stifling free speech that is dangerous. Even their laws against denying the Holocaust scare me, but it is just an example of how the self righteous think.

  • Thanks for the Info.
  • Posted by kgotthardt on October 18, 2006 at 11:45am EDT
  • Interesting. So even if it were not in the college's best interest, students protesting at a private college could easily be expelled as well as arrested. And students protesting the validity of a private college's education and benefit could also be expelled. This makes quite an argument for public colleges and universities.

  • Posted by K.T. on October 18, 2006 at 1:05pm EDT
  • the discussion here amounts to a bunch of hand wringing about those awful activist students. Pathetic. Shameful.

    The content of the speech is not at issue here. It is the propriety and hypocrisy of the student's actions. I doubt many folks on this board are sympathetic to the calls of the Minutemen. Yet, I'll defend their right to speak, no matter how objectionable, anyday of the week. And, I'll criticize the students for their intolerance of diverse perspectives until I turn blue in the face (again no matter how objectionable those perspectives are).

  • Posted by K.T. on October 18, 2006 at 1:05pm EDT
  • This makes quite an argument for public colleges and universities.

    Quite the contrary, it makes the case for private universities. Such institutions should stand for something and not be afraid to silence those who disagree with its values (see BC article). The beauty of private institutions is that, if organized correctly, we can all attend institutions that represent our own values and beliefs - it is the essence of "freedom of association" - to associate with those that are like-minded and share our values. But, those are decisions for institutions to make (generally through their boards), not a roving mob of students.

  • Restricting Free Speech
  • Posted by Jonathan Cohen on October 18, 2006 at 2:55pm EDT
  • It is curious that someone has commented on my use of the term free speech in my earlier comment since I never in fact used the term. I described what happened which was the students prevented the speaker from giving his lecture.

    It is important to note that many of the commenters have commented negatively about what the speaker had to say even though he was not allowed to speak. Gilchrist is a member of a group that has taken certain positions but he is also an individual and he would be the best person to describe his own views on immigration and the tactics he would recommend in pursuing those views.

    There are certainly legal and constitutional as well as common sense ways of looking at free speech but the student activists described in the article have certainly come up with a unique definition.

    Free speech is the right of the activists to prevent a speaker from giving his lecture because the activists have decided in advance that they don't like what the speaker will have to say.

    This is a mentality that comes dangerously close to fascism.

  • time to grow up--you are not in the schoolyard anymore
  • Posted by kathy on October 18, 2006 at 2:55pm EDT
  • Clearly the students stormed the stage and incited their sympathizers in the crowd so that the speaker could not be heard. They obviously had it timed or signalled for bigger impact. Otherwise, they could have hung banners beforehand; stood outside with signs; even stood in the back saying nothing, holding placards and wearing t-shirts. The intent was to suppress the speaker's speech. I am tired of protestors who upset and infringe on everyone else, including the illegals who tie up the streets & cause stores to shut down, the Cubans in Miami who take over bridges causing traffic hell, and goons who cause a furor outside medical clinics. Your right to protest shouldn't come at my expense. It is time for Americans to wake up and stop this nonsense. It's a shame that these brats admitted to Columbia weren't of better ilk. Bad parenting maybe? Glad my teenager crossed Columbia off her list!

  • responses to Kathy and others
  • Posted by Larry on October 18, 2006 at 4:45pm EDT
  • Kathy, I am sorry that you are “tired” of people, but that doesn’t resolve the important issues here. For better or worse, it is likely that the students broke now laws, because they were lawfully present at the own university. Sure, they were rude, but so are lots of people. Moreover, the “illegals” as you say, usually have permits for demonstrations that are lawfully acquired. (Most of the time they are not “illegals” anyway, but this is a distinction that I don’t think you care about.) In fact, a person’s “right” to protest does comes at the expense of other’s ability not to be offended. Indeed, you have absolutely no right not to be offended in the US.

    I am curious: were you somehow deprived of the ability to hear a Minuteman speak? Also, was your child admitted to Columbia, and then you turned it down. To turn down a school such as Columbia because of what a few students do is a tad silly, since going to a real school, such as Columbia, will make his future considerably easier.

    Jonathan, It is doubtful that anyone’s mentality is “close to fascism” since none of the people you mentioned exercised stated power, and I don’t even think you have a working definition of fascism. The speaker, in this case, did not suffer any constitutional injury. He is free to broadcast his message anywhere. Whether students at Columbia want to hear him is a different question. However, a little bird tells me that few Columbia students will be spending their summer guarding the Mexican border.

    KT, While I like drawing conclusions as much as the next guy, the contours of the First amendment do not indicate that one model of a university is any better than the next. As you concede, universities are only good if “organized correctly.” However, without exception, at least some people complain about every university. Personally, I can’t see how anyone under 30 (much less a pre-college-age person) can determine what their own values are. It takes years to understand a value system, and it takes years of exposure to difficult situations to even begin to form one’s own views of things outside a few slogans.

  • Just a minute!
  • Posted by B.D. on October 18, 2006 at 5:05pm EDT
  • " .. didn’t take a moment to condemn the calls of Members of Mr. Gilchrist’s group to murder people ..

    Sir, where is your proof? You have provided none. The quality of your words are equal to your proof.

    " .. I haven’t seen the video."

    http://youtube.com/results?search_query=columbia+protest&search=Search

    Welcome to the 21th century, sir.

  • Free Speech
  • Posted by Gabriel Peters on October 18, 2006 at 5:20pm EDT
  • Regarding the comment from the National Lawyers Guild apparatchik:

    However, another observer of protest rights on campuses said that the students were well within their rights to go onstage. “The students had a right to unfurl banners at an event,” said Heidi Boghosian, executive director of the National Lawyers Guild, a liberal bar association that has supported the protestors. “Some people have asked, ‘Well, was it crossing the line to go up on the stage?’”

    “I don’t think that’s crossing the line.”

    She might change her mind if the question is people going up on stage at a Guild event. Clearly the protestors were trying to stop core political speech. Their intolerance is defended by the Guild. Disgraceful.

  • Posted by Joseph Duemer , Professor at Clarkson on October 18, 2006 at 6:10pm EDT
  • Kathy: Clearly? Obviously? Were you there? Ah, life would be so much better if we just signed away our right to protest injustice. Kathy, your comment is among the most fundamentally un-American things I have ever heard anyone say. You are proposing that we become a nation of sheep.

    Natrium: There was an article in the NY Times Magazine a couple of months ago that quoted at least one Minuteman as wanting to shoot Mexicans crossing the border. (Unfortunately, the article is behind the Times' pay-to-read curtain, so I can't link to it.) The IHE quote may be unsourced, but there are sources available if you care to look them up. I am a native Southern Californian, though now displaced, & this sort of talk is common among rednecks along the border.

    BD: no need to address me as Sir. I am not a pompous ass, though you may be, nor is this the 18th century. Beyond that, the conflation of the two quotes of mine you provide makes no sense. My first comment was about Gilchrist's group the Minutemen, who carry guns & look for Mexicans & who have been quoted in the press as believing they have a right to shoot said Mexicans. Maybe they only want to injure them, not kill them outright, then leave them to die in the desert. I stand by my statement. But when I say, "I haven't seen the video," I am referring to the demonstration at Columbia & the remarks that follow are offered quite clearly as hypothetical & theoretical, as anyone who takes the time to read them can plainly see. And video, in any case, cannot tell us people's intentions. By the way, BD, how come you didn't take Kathy to task (a few comments above) for expressing certainty about what happened? She doesn't appear to have been there either. Oh, right, you agree with her position.

  • Hypocracy
  • Posted by T.A. on October 18, 2006 at 7:50pm EDT
  • Larry

    "...TA, Your views of “free speech” are not necessarily correct. To say that you have a “right to free speech” to the point that it “infringes on others” [rights] is somewhat of an oversimplification. Unfortunately, political science courses are usually taught by non-lawyers, and law classes are taught by lawyers that enjoy condescending to undergrads."

    "...Personally, I can’t see how anyone under 30 (much less a pre-college-age person) can determine what their own values are. It takes years to understand a value system, and it takes years of exposure to difficult situations to even begin to form one’s own views of things outside a few slogans."

    Talk about condescending!

  • The Law is Irrelevant
  • Posted by Michael B. Combs , Major, US Air Force (Retired) on October 18, 2006 at 10:20pm EDT
  • Larry the Lawyer reminds me that “if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.” Academic freedom is not a matter of law, and neither is freedom of speech. Both are based on respect for ideals that transcend the sort of hair splitting that lawyers delight in.

    While you are arguing the details, the principles are being trodden into the dirt. It makes no difference whether a college is public or private, or where it gets its funds. If you don’t know what the right thing to do when a speaker you disagree with is on the stage, then you are ignorant, and your actions are a perversion of academic inquiry. Clearly your way is bigoted and close minded. Perhaps the speaker is bigoted and close minded too, but by your actions you never gave him the chance to prove you right. Let him speak, and let all judge him, don't fall victim to your own prejudices and silence him.

  • Posted by Marvin McConoughey on October 19, 2006 at 4:20am EDT
  • Larry opines that "The Minutemen have a right to speak, but not necessarily to use Columbia’s facilities and to use them a way that is unmolested by students." While there is no inherent right for the MM to use any college's facilities, in the case of Columbia, they had an express invitation, apparently lawfully made and lawfully accepted. Given those two conditions, the MM did have a right to speak and to not be threatened. The students deserve a fair hearing to determine which specific student personalities are guilty of the physical tresspass of the speakers' right to speak. Once identified, those responsible should be set free from Columbia to seek education at another institution of higher education.

  • Posted by William on October 19, 2006 at 4:20am EDT
  • John D,

    Sorry, I read that NYT article and only found one minuteman quoted and no references to others. Is your 'at least one'hyperbole or did I miss some sentences? If there is clearly only one person making a statement you should lable it such. To do otherwise is dishonsest. As for your other proor, are the 'rednecks' you speak to regularly members of this group?

    I am normally hesistant in labelling entire groups. I also try to see that views don't have to match mine or that views can often be complex. For example, I can see that people can oppose Isreali policies without being anti-jewish. People can also be opposed to toleration or encouragement of illegal immigration without being anti-immigrant or being racist (in fact one of the kindest people I know, an activist nun, strongly supports stopping illegal immigrantion as a means of forcing big business to support fair immigration policies and stop exploitation of illegals.)

    Letting the Minuteman spokesman speak may provide more insight into their views beyond that of one NYT Sunday Magazine article and, of course, the lunches with your 'redneck' friends.

    And by the way, have you looked at the video now? What do you think? I would be interested in your views after you looked at some of the available evidence.

  • collected responses
  • Posted by LArry on October 19, 2006 at 6:50am EDT
  • Mr. Combs, I think we both agree that these are good principles that all Americans should treasure. I might be going out on a limb here, but I think we both agree that the law reflects principles that people hold dear. The question, however, is the means people have to enforce them. In the public setting, where the “source” of law (that is, where those principles were codified) is the constitution, one can claim that the actions of the state were unconstitutional and proceed under 42 USC 1983. In the private school setting, where the constitution is not directly binding, and 1983 apply, one must look to other sources, including contract law. Also, in the private setting, schools should realize that their legitimacy as an academic institution (which allows it to be free from certain forms of government regulation) depends on allowing people to express themselves.

    TA, Yes, I am condescending. In the real world, people will condescend to you. If you wish to address my arguments, I will no condescend to you.

    Mr. McConoughey, To begin, I am not entirely happy about what happened. However, just because someone is lawfully present (as the Minutemen were), doesn’t give them a right to be heard without interference. There is absolutely no privately enforceable right of the minutemen to speak and be heard at Columbia, even with an invitation. On the other hand, if the students assaulted people, they might be guilty of a crime or violation of one of Columbia’s rules. (Oh, and yes, I think the students behaved in an immature manner.)

  • Posted by T.A. on October 19, 2006 at 7:15am EDT
  • Larry,

    It seems that you are making the assumption that I'm an undergrad, under 30, and have never lived in the real world. So, you condescend to me. You're wrong on all three counts. If you go back and read my comments you'll see that I said that you were probably right, so why should I post facts to argue with you?

    I simply said that it should NOT take a lawyer to figure this out. Common sense and respect for each other's rights should take care of the problem. However, you did say "that's why we get paid the big bucks". So, I'm sure in you're happy with the situation as is.

  • Evidence
  • Posted by Joseph Duemer , Professor at Clarkson University on October 19, 2006 at 7:50am EDT
  • William: I assume you are addressing me above. Yes, I have watched the video. It appears that there was a melee, but there remain conflicting accounts about what happened. A couple of minutes of video does not really prove anything one way or the other. Given Gilchrist's groups regular & routine incitement to violence, it is entirely possible there is blame on both sides. However, as I have said all along, I think Gilchrist should have been allowed to speak. The best remedy for free speech is more speech.

    Early in this discussion, I was criticized for using an "unsourced" assertion--though the IHE article made the same statement; next I was criticized for offering a single source, the NY Times Magazine article; later, I posted another link to an eye-witness account of several members of Gilchrist's organization saying they wanted to shoot aliens, b ut the editors of IHE did not post that note, probably because I referred to the "moral imbicility" of people who become hysterical at a demonstration gone out of control while at the same time doing everything they can to brush off the actual nature of Gilchrist's beliefs.

  • A Thought
  • Posted by T.A. on October 19, 2006 at 8:10am EDT
  • Joseph,

    I agree with much of what you say; especially when you said you felt that he should have been allowed to speak. I thought about what a defense lawyer said to me one time when I asked him why he never wanted to put a defendant on the stand.

    His answer; "We don't want to give him a chance to damn himself with his own words". Perhaps if the protestors would have allowed Gillcrist (sp) to speak, he too would have damned himself with his own words.

  • Columbia Neo-nazi riot
  • Posted by feudi pandola on October 19, 2006 at 8:30am EDT
  • The neo-nazi riot at Columbia is no surprise to me. The arrogance of youth is no different today than it was in the 1960's. No wonder either that leftists now defend their churlish behavior by comparing this incident to the Ahmadinejad Incident.

    The same people who championed the madman from Iran's right to free speech keep their yaps shut tight when it comes to freedom of speech for the millions of silenced burkha'ed Muslim women.

    Cowards...all cowards.

  • Evidence (link)
  • Posted by Joseph Duemer on October 19, 2006 at 9:20am EDT
  • For some reason, the link I attempted to post was stripped out. Here are some Minutemen in their own voices, in a sourced article:

    http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=557

  • TA and Mr. pandola
  • Posted by Larry on October 19, 2006 at 10:51am EDT
  • Mr. pandola, Congratulations on being the first person to use the word Nazi! (I don’t see how the students advocated the extermination of any ethnic group or the invasion of France.) Contrary to popular belief many people were young once, and, instead of name-calling you might want to simply argue that they were incorrect as a matter of law or policy.

    TA, It doesn’t matter how old you are. Just about any legal conclusion can be justified by “common sense.” In fact, without a doubt, every legal argument (successful or unsuccessful) has was, or could be, argued to be “common sense.” What matters, however, is not what the lay people think is “common sense” but rather what the framers of the constitution and the courts that interpreted think is “common sense.”

  • Un-Invitated vs. Driven off
  • Posted by Kevin , Undergraduate on October 19, 2006 at 6:45pm EDT
  • There is a difference between being uninvited and being driven off. A school can invite or uninvite anyone it chooses. A mob cannot exercise a "heckler's veto" - an action explicitly placed outside any protection of the first amendment by the supreme court.

    Mob action should not be permitted no matter what the cause.

  • Which Mob?
  • Posted by Joseph Duemer , Professor at Clarkson University on October 20, 2006 at 5:30am EDT
  • Kevin, which mob are you talking about? The mob that supposedly kept kept Jim Gilchrist from speaking--I don't think the video is unambiguous--or the mob at whose head Jim Gilchrist stands, advocating murder?

  • This was not a “Heckler’s veto.”
  • Posted by Larry on October 20, 2006 at 6:55am EDT
  • Kevin, That is simply not the definition of a “Heckler’s veto” as used by the Supreme Court.” The term, as used by the Supreme Court, refers to the court’s rejection of the idea that just because other people might be offended by some expression (perhaps reacting violently) that the state can prohibit their speech.
    E.g. Forsyth County v. Nationalist Movement, 505 U.S. 123, 125-126 (1992). Neither Columbia nor the students are bound by the constitution.