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Feb. 26, 2007
Anti-Hmong Comments Set Off a Law School
The law school dean the University of Wisconsin at Madison sent an e-mail message to students and faculty members last week apologizing for the hurt caused by a professor’s anti-Hmong comnents during a class lecture, while also saying that no harm had been intended by them.
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“All of us in the Law School administration deeply regret this unfortunate course of events,” wrote Kenneth Davis, the dean. He added that the professor involved, Leonard Kaplan, “feels deeply sorry that his classroom remarks have caused so much pain for some of his students.” Of the law school more broadly, the dean said: “I can assure you that the school takes very seriously the professional conduct of our faculty, both in and out of the classroom. The Law School also takes very seriously our long-held core values of diversity, fairness, and respect for all.”
“I want to be clear that this is not about dealing with controversial material because we do that all the time as a law school,” Davis wrote. “We want to deal with that controversy critically and see if the students can make their own conclusions for it.”
Kaplan’s comments were made in a Legal Process course, in lecture on “legal formalism and its potential for adverse consequences to various ethnic minorities” according to the dean. (Kaplan declined to comment.)
According to e-mails circulating in the law school that officials have not contested, in the course of his lecture, Kaplan made comments such as “Hmong women are better off now that Hmong men are dying off in this country” and “all Hmong men purchase their wives, so if he wants to have sex with his wife and she doesn’t consent, you and I call it rape, but the Hmong guy is thinking, ‘man, I paid too much for her.” Kashia Moua, a law student who was present during the lecture, sent out an e-mail report about the class and that e-mail then spread, leading to a forum last week.
Moua’s e-mail called the professor’s comments “incredibly offensive and racist” and urged the student body to “proceed in holding Kaplan and our administration accountable for these comments.”
Davis, the dean, noted in his e-mail that none of the students he had spoken with who had attended the lecture believed that the remarks “were motivated by animus or ill will toward any particular racial group.” However, students agreed that “uniformed and disparaging racial stereotypes” resulted.
Donald Downs, political science professor and the president of the Committee for Academic Freedom and Rights at UW, is a colleague and friend of Kaplan’s and said that “based on what I know of him, I don’t think he would intentionally try to offend students on those types of categories — he was just trying to portray a point of view.”
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Comments
Good for Davis
If you break down the student statements, it shows how pathetic the discourse is over these issues.
1) Does it really matter whether Professor Davis tried to offend anyone. There are many things in the law that make people angry, and are offensive. But, by the time people get to law school, they generally know what they need to face them head-on; 2) Many cultures have values that Americans consider sexist, and those values clash with American law. (I don’t know too much direct experience with the Hmong to comment on this.) But, to pretend that such cultures don’t exist is to do a disservice to law students who may have to deal with them in practice; and3) Stereotypes, while politically incorrect, reflect our knowledge about groups of people. Even if they are not 100% true, they likely do indicate that some people of the target group have a certain set of characteristics. If students really deny this then they are simply refusing to deal with whatever clash of cultures existed.
Luckily, Davis’ comments essentially tell the students to deal with issues.
Larry, at 6:35 am EST on February 26, 2007
Daily Tizzy
It’s become just plain strange to even look at this site now. Every day, there is at least one piece about some tizzy set off on some campus because of insensitivity.
Given that academics are supposed to be intellectuals, they should think things through calmly and rationally, instead of putting on daily shows of emotion. For academics, everything’s an outrage these days. Outrage, however, is a tactic for the impotent: Teach the kids a better response to problems than venting impotently.
JBM, at 7:35 am EST on February 26, 2007
Hmong women are better off now that Hmong men are dying off? The students are right to be appalled by such a statement. It’s hard to imagine the educational context in which such a remark would be anything but cruel and fatuous.
calico, at 9:01 am EST on February 26, 2007
Welcome to chaos
” .. they should think things through calmly and rationally, instead of putting on daily shows of emotion ..”
Condi Rice is alleged to have said she left academia due to the “chaos” and plans to return to the “chaos.”
I’d only add this: that kind of self-indulgent wastefulness is OK when your economy is rising, including Maoist-wannabe’s collecting gummit paychecks.
When the student body, supported by flaccid educational admistrators, lacks the discipline to focus on authentic skill development, in the face multi-billion-dollar unfunded social programs — that is a frickin’ crisis waiting to happen. What will the Maoists do, when their pension checks bounce?
What would different would be these various groups, thoughtfully sitting through a intense, wide-ranging review of their raison d’etre.
Then again, look what happen to Larry Summers. Why bother? Let them find out the hard way, in the work-world.
Good luck — and if things get really tough, call Mommy and Daddy.
C. Bigsby, at 11:15 am EST on February 26, 2007
1. Mr. Kaplan should get Fire.2. Mr. Kaplan should Apologize in the public media for his unfact comments.
My question is that where did he get his source from? He cannot comment on the Hmong unless, he knows the Hmong cultures, understanding the Hmong history and language. UW is a diverse university, why hire this narrow minded professor to teach at the UW? Why he would pick the Hmong? Why not Mexican? Why not Native American? Why not German? Mr. Kaplan is a racist. Did he know how many percent the Hmong students are attending UW Madison? Mr. Kaplan is jealous of the Hmong because today the Hmong men and women are doctors, lawyers, professors, entrepreneurs and more. I am a Hmong men, a bussiness man, a hard working father, a university graduate, a respected leader in my community at large, AND NOT A RICIST LIKE MR. KAPLAN.
Chung, at 11:15 am EST on February 26, 2007
Only the Facts
Education is to collect and analyze the facts.
Wisconsin is where most of the 180,000 Hmong live.
It is proper for the Wisconsin law school to teach Hmong customs and practices.
Does the professor also have a right to express an opinion of “who is better off”.
Only with research to back up the comment. No such research is cited in the article – so the comment is out-of-bounds for that reason, not because some are offended.
Quizzical, at 11:15 am EST on February 26, 2007
SORRY ISN’T ENOUGH
Sorry ain’t enough, you took your time to preach and say something in your own point of view and address it to the class. If the student have never leak this e-mail out and to the dean or other i doubt it that you will never apologize because you know it as will as i do hat you mean every word you mean.The only reason you are sorry now is because your job is on the line now. Be a man and stand up and take your consequence as a man.
SAI YANG, SORRY ISN’T ENOUGH, at 12:11 pm EST on February 26, 2007
defending the defensible
Quizzical, Where do you get the idea that “education is to analyze facts.” This case was pretty clearly one in theory, and this was a fairly obvious demonstration of a fairly common legal scenario.
Secondly, Quizzical, how do you know if something is a “fact” or not. Most of what we know about the world has not been proven scientifically or to a jury, and most of it is hearsay anyway. Instead, we take guesses based on formal or informal notions about the nature of the universe.
Mr. YANG, His job is not on the line. His comments were purely subjective, and were definitely in line with the material being taught. Whether they are correct or not is a matter for debate, but his job is definitely secure.
Chung, There is no reason to apologize for this statement. It was a relevant point of view to the subject matter. Perhaps if you would read the course material, you might see where it fit in.
calico, What is so absurd about the notion? It may very well be that certain attitudes towards women are dying with the men that possessed them. As the time passes in the US, there simply won’t be too many people alive that remember the days when segregation existed as a matter of law in the US. In a few decades homosexuals will likely be treated a lot better as legal and cultural barriers will fade as the true homophobes die. This is the way of the world.
Larry, at 12:50 pm EST on February 26, 2007
Double Standards
While Kaplan’s comments appear to have been offensive and ignorant, the school seems to have handled the situation correctly.
One wonders, however, what the reaction would have been if Kaplan had made similar remarks about Mexicans, Nigerians, or some other more politically-correct ethnic group.
Al, at 1:45 pm EST on February 26, 2007
It is odd that no news outlet has covered the substantive context within which these comments were made. Likely, Professor Kaplan was talking about the Hmong custom of “marriage by capture” and the problems that creates in rape prosecutions. I have written more extensively on this at http://notlikeminded.blogspot.com/2007/02/uw-hmong-controversy.html
otnemem, Cultural Defense at UVA, at 11:25 am EST on February 27, 2007
People are leaping to conclusions without enough information
All of the comments about these statements being Kaplans personal point of view don’t have all of the facts. I don’t believe they are his beliefs and I don’t believe they were presented as his beliefs.
An excerpt from the UW Badger Herald.http://badgerherald.com/oped/2007/02/26/kaplans_remarks_not_.php
“According to the St. Paul Pioneer Press, Dao admitted that he “felt a bit uncomfortable mainly due to the delivery of the stereotypes, which were shrouded in Kaplan’s trademark style of humor that can be quite polarizing.” But Dao insists that Kaplan’s ridiculous assessment of the Hmong dowry system was in reality an attempt to explain how “ethnic minorities can use a ‘cultural defense argument’ in rape cases.” Additionally, Dao attributes Kaplan’s “gang and criminal activity” comment to Kaplan’s attempt at critiquing Wisconsin’s mishandling of providing educational and vocational opportunities to its Hmong population. While racist rants are a crude way to spark social change, a pattern in Kaplan’s behavior is beginning to emerge. This man is no racist, and his comments — when taken in context — do not reflect a prejudiced view on his part.”
This version of events make sense to me. I know for a fact that not only is he not a racist but that he is highly aware of issues of predjudice both academically and personally.
If anything he is an somewhat dramatic but entertaining and insightful educator. So all of the post questioning his ability as an educator or scholar based on two minutes of instruction that was reported in an inflamatory manner are doing him and themselves a disservice.
For those of you who can’t imagine how these statements could be said in a non-racist context illustrates the limit of your imagination not the nature of the comments.
Life is complicated and I feel the backlash against situations like this is an attempt to make everything a duopoly where all speech is either racist or value free. This is an impossible ruberic to try to judge speech in real life.
Was it poorly delivered or questioniable judgement to use this example? Perhaps. Were the comments inherently racist and proof that he is personally a racist and incompetent? No.
bob, Not Racist at UW Madison, at 12:10 pm EST on February 27, 2007
Not a Racist, but a Certainly a Bigot
How can anyone give this person an ounce of credibility after couching his argument(s)in those terms?
Yes, we Hmong do things that are culturally, and in some cases legally unacceptable to mainstream America. But the only way to work through these barriers is to engage, not enrage.
On a side note, did you know that you can be legally married as young as 15 in Kansas? And that North Dakota just downgraded co-habiting from a sexual offense to fraud?
What’s the difference between a $10,000 dowry and a $10,000 diamond engagement ring?
This Yaaj, Director of Multicultural Affairs, at 4:25 am EST on February 28, 2007
Why Us Hmong And Not The Others!!!
First of all, I just wanted to tell that so call instructor that he’s just to lame. I don’t understand why he would just pick on us Hmong when there are so many other races out there. Just because of those hunting and killing up there. It doesn’t mean nothing. I know it’s kind of late for saying sorry, but then you don’t even really mean it. Cause being an instructor to you is really important, but you really do have to control what you try to say. Think about yourself before you talk about others. You think it’s funny to you, but you just don’t know how much it hurts us (HMONG) people when you talk about us. Everyone is different in their own way. Learn more about others culture before you talk about them. Why not just talk about your own background!!!!
HMONG LOVE!!!
mai, Why The HMONGS, at 4:25 am EST on February 28, 2007
Racist professor on campus?
Hm..An email has spread throughout the Hmong community..by awareness and word of mouth...ok maybe some world wide web also..even to us here in california...wow..it still amazes me to see the lack of progression that the midwest has had as far as being culturally sensitive and accepting of someone who is different from yourself..seems that “supremacist” type mentality still exists there..and i use that term loosely..seems lately the hmong community has been under severe scrutiny whether it be on a national level (Patriot act labels hmong refugees as Terrorists?) or on a local level..(the ignorant and pathetic excuse of a professor)..i apologoze for this rude demeanor..but i felt like i just had to say that regardless of who i offended..Oops! I’m starting to sound like that professor..only difference is im NOT a professor...get my drift?
Concerned Citizen, Dude are you guys serious? at McGeorge school of law, at 4:25 am EST on February 28, 2007
Dysfunctional leader
in regard to the Anti-Hmong comments, i honestly think that he should of never make that remarks period!
regarding to this statment; “Donald Downs, political science professor and the president of the Committee for Academic Freedom and Rights at UW, is a colleague and friend of Kaplan’s and said that “based on what I know of him, I don’t think he would intentionally try to offend students on those types of categories — he was just trying to portray a point of view.”” of course is going to to protect his friend, what and one thing people don’t know that is law is law, friends are just friends, they are not here to bail you!
changy, student at devry, at 4:25 am EST on February 28, 2007
regard to: Double Standards
While Kaplan’s comments appear to have been offensive and ignorant, the school seems to have handled the situation correctly.
One wonders, however, what the reaction would have been if Kaplan had made similar remarks about Mexicans, Nigerians, or some other more politically-correct ethnic group.
thats not the point, you honestly try to understand, but we, as individual, or any individual would not like to be refer in any way, before you speak we as people need to clarify and notify, of those individual first, the mexican’s, nigerians it does not matter who you speak of, the point is it should of never been said.
changy, devry, at 4:25 am EST on February 28, 2007
I’m GLAD someone said something
After reading this editorial, I am offended that the Professor had to say something like this. He should be open minded, and not criticize our Hmong people. He calls himself a Law Professor, but didn’t show the least consideration for the Hmong people. Maybe if he was educated about the Hmong, then maybe he wouldn’t have been so ignorant about the subject. Those that do not know who the Hmong people are, do your research. We are making our mark, and we are becoming Doctors, Lawyers, Business Entrepeurners and everything else that is open to us. And majority of the second generations are making something of themselves now. Majority of us are college educated, trying to become someone. Please visit the city of Hmong people found in St. Paul Minnesota. Then after that, come visit California.
Xai, at 4:25 am EST on February 28, 2007
I agree with Larry that while stereotypes are not true for everyone, they are rooted in truth.
This is what I’ve been preaching to whites when I said most whites are racist and racially ignorant. Therefore, it’s ok to stereotypes whites as such because it’s rooted in truth.
Rob, at 2:06 pm EST on February 28, 2007
Read the statements: “Hmong women are better off now that Hmong men are dying off...?""you and I call it rape, but the Hmong guy...?” Obviously this professor didn’t care to include the Hmong students who were present at his lecture because they were not the “you and I"; instead they were the “Hmong guy"; I would almost say he was targeting them. What a shame!
toog, at 7:51 pm EST on February 28, 2007
Some crucial words seem to be missing from this report — such as the word “not.”
Ms. Moua was not in class that day, according to the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and other media in Madison. She agrees that she may have misheard secondhand reports and misstated them. Dean Davis said that he does not believe Prof. Kaplan’s comments were motivated by animus.
The report above is flawed in many ways. Seek other reports of this case.
Comments also have factual errors. Most of the Hmong in this country do not live in Wisconsin. It has the third-largest Hmong community in the country. Minnesota has the largest. So most of the Hmong live in the Midwest. Look at a map to tell the difference. . . but don’t look at a New York Times map. They have been even more wrong about the Midwest than this report and these comments are about the facts.
Anon, at 4:20 am EST on March 2, 2007
Those Hmong students are making a good stand, but I think since a lot of them were not there, things may be blown out of proportion. I think he’s more afraid of the media attention rather than anything. And now with all this attention that has been brought to it, things won’t be the same there. i support these girls all the way! it doesn’t matter what has been said, because he already know that he’s said wrong. that’s why he’s afraid of his repuation now! he should’ve thought about that before making such comments with no facts to support it. this professor needs to go back to school and learn all over agian. i think the age thing might of had some effect on him!
KEO LOR, at 1:46 pm EDT on April 17, 2007
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It doesn’t matter that this was part of the curriculum, teaching does not involve putting down your own students. Though I would not call this racism there is defiantly bigotry going on in that teachers mind. The words he spoke would be equal to someone saying “All white people do their own mothers” Before you say anything I would like to add that this comment comes with “Proof” Many Southern Plantation Families did often intermarry, not exactly their mothers but second and third cousins. Obviously this is an exaggeration, which is exactly what that teacher did. Now I would never, never in my life say anything like that and use “teaching” as my excuse.
Human Being, Why aren’t we outraged?, at 8:25 pm EDT on September 19, 2008