May 23, 2007

Looking for Male Students

When community college leaders gather these days, one topic that seems to come up all the time is what to do about declining male enrollments. Nationally, men make up 43 percent of college students, and there are plenty of community colleges where that proportion is smaller.

Looking for a job?

See all 169 new postings

Browse all job listings:

Faculty: 2,694
Administrative: 2,046
Executive: 153
FEATURED EMPLOYERS

On Tuesday, the efforts of one such institution — St. Petersburg College — were described to a very engaged audience at the annual meeting of the National Institute for Staff and Organizational Development, in Austin. With male enrollment down to 39.7 percent at the ethnically diverse (half white, half other groups) Florida college, Rod Davis has been moved from a position as academic advisor to coordinator of the Male Outreach Initiative, and he described the process of putting together such a program.

In part, he said that the college didn’t want to re-invent the wheel, so it’s been looking at what other institutions — in and out of academe — are doing. For example, in talking to those who enlist in the military, Davis said it was clear that the way the military is reaching students is getting involved in middle schools and high schools early, with military recruiters volunteering with sports teams and building relationships early — without an explicit recruiting agenda. Davis said that if the military can succeed at this — even at a time of war — surely colleges can.

St. Petersburg has also been doing focus groups with male students to ask them what issues most challenge them at the college, and those discussions are leading to the creation of other programs. For example, many students at the college hold substantial work commitments — and about one-third have jobs of at least 40 hours a week. Many of the students’ employers have tuition reimbursement programs, but the college found that male students in particular didn’t know about them, or how to get access to the money to which they are entitled. So the college has started bringing in human resources officials from major employers to talk about benefits such as tuition reimbursement.

Similarly, he said that many male students with jobs are unaware of flextime policies in place at their employers that would ease the balance of college and work.

Davis said that the tuition reimbursement example is typical of the issues faced by male students — practical problems hinder their success and they don’t know how to deal with them. “Men know where they want to go, but have no ideas about how to get there.”

He said, for example, that when pressed, male students talked about not buying textbooks that are assigned, because of their cost, prompting the college to create a textbook-sharing program. With gas prices reaching record levels, Davis said male students in particular are raising questions about transportation, so the college is working with local transit authorities on bus passes.

A related problem is that male students are less likely to be communicative about what their issues are — unless asked directly. Male students will end up having several meetings with an academic or financial aid counselor before revealing what is really on their mind, he said. The male students appear to be more willing to be open with male counselors, so the college is trying to make sure staffing is balanced on gender.

St. Petersburg College is also doing a lot of research on retention patterns and trying to share the results with academic counselors. For instance, Davis said that for male students on average, distance education isn’t wise in their first year, as drop-out rates are high.

“A lot of this is about knowing your students,” Davis said.

— Scott Jaschik

Want it on paper? Print this page.
Know someone who’d be interested? Forward this story.
Want to stay informed? Sign up for free daily news e-mail.

Comments

It’s interesting that there is an effort to address the gender gap when men are in the minority, but not examine the issue (historically) when women were in the minority. Flex hours, transportation, fiancial incentives? Imagine if similar tactics had been used for prospective female students 50 years ago. Instead, women had to fight for acceptance to and adapt to a male culture by becoming ‘honourary men.’ And college think that now there needs to be a change? I question the latent motivation behind these types of discussions.

LM, at 10:50 am EDT on May 23, 2007

I think LM is a little off the mark. If only 50 years ago we had the internet, or cell phones, or any other modern idea or invention...What if? questions are worthless, anachronistic, and (unlike her approach) ahistorical. What about Title VI, among other legislative acts, to help women into college. Also, one college is not representative of all college. There were colleges that gave incentives to women in the past, just as there are and will be those that give incentives to women.

Don’t be such a crank.

b, at 12:45 pm EDT on May 23, 2007

Men’s Studies needed

The solution to this problem is simple: In addition to “women’s studies” programs at our colleges and universities, it’s time we added “men’s studies” programs as well. The issue is equality, isn’t it?

jrob, at 12:45 pm EDT on May 23, 2007

IM, You’re Right ... But Let’s Not Make Too Much Of It

IM certainly has a point, but I hope s/he won’t push it too far.

Let’s assume for the purpose of discussion that, over the populations of all Americans during the past century, the distributions of intelligence – whatever that means – have been fairly constant (I’m betting that’s not too far from the truth). Then it makes sense to believe that, all other things equal, education is a significant contributor to the marks we, as individuals, are capable of making on our world.

The societal cost of not educating large numbers of women – as was the case in the not too distant past – is essentially an opportunity cost. There were all of those potentially significant female contributors who were denied the possibility of contributing up to their potential because they were “denied” access to education. It is my prejudice – right or wrong – that, in the absence of educational opportunities, most of those women made choices that, while not equal to their potential, were, nevertheless, quite positive.

Again expressing one of my prejudices, I think the cost of our failure to engage young men in the educational process will, in addition to being a loss of significant potential, also have another very negative impact on society. The decisions and actions of these young men will not be the positive ones women historically made for themselves. If we cannot attract and retain young men in education at every level, we can certainly expect to spend an enormous portion of our resources policing and incarcerating a growing population of disengaged, disenfranchised, angry, and hostile young men.

I know a few data points don’t substantiate an argument, but I challenge you to got to ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geOekVyooxI&mode=related&search=

and don’t stop there. Keep on clicking. I can assure you that what you will witness is part and parcel of what we can expect many, many times over if we do not tie the education of young men to our social welfare.

My point is not to argue that focusing attention of the education of men is more important than focusing attention on the education of women ... it’s just that they’re different. I appreciate IM’s perspective and I agree that s/he’s right. I just don’t want any part of educational or social policy (or initiatives) that is based on the concept of “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.”

RWH, at 1:35 pm EDT on May 23, 2007

stereotypes

Don’t you just love stereotypes? Like the one portraying “men” as having a lock on all opportunities to education (back in the day)?

Which “men?” — certainly none of those from my immigrant, agricultural worker ancestors. One female (grandmother) studied for 1 year to be certified to teach country school.

Ooops, grandma broke the stereotype.

Wasn’t it Betty Friedan who said, “we can’t allow women to have the option of being a housewife; feminists must force all women into the work force.” Isn’t that the crux of this current (laughable) matter?

Women have generally had options: options to stay home and take care of aged parents, the option to marry, the option to work if necessary. Men — go to work.

Ooops, there is that stereotype thingy again; I suppose some “men” did have the option to stay at home, live off the family investments, chew on cigars, read the paper, and think of new ways to oppress women.

Oh yes, rich and poor “men” have also had the option to join the military, albeit only a small percentage were able to join the officers ranks.

Those men who have always been expected to die in the trenches, mines, in burning structures (fire fighters), under farm implements & animals, ground up in industrial machines, on sinking ships, etc. to support women and children (and give up their seat in the life boats) generally did not have more than one option.

. . . or am I guilty of grossly stereotyping the options of most “men” over the course of recorded history?

Intelligent women have always known, long before femmunism reared its ugly, untruthful head, that the limosine can be directed from the back. The intelligent women run the show without climbing into the un-heated, un-air-conditioned, more dangerous “drivers seat” eh?

written in memory of Nadezhda Allilueva

one of the first victims of femmunist

communism (Zhenotdel).

Dr. F. Gump, at 2:55 pm EDT on May 23, 2007

Why balance the sexes?

The article doesn’t explain why it’s important that a college have “enough” men. Nationwide the selective privates and elite public campuses can arrange a 50/50 sex ratio, but the less selective colleges wind up with 60-70% female students. How will this affect education?

Having “too few” men may starve certain major departments while benefitting others. Will the weakened departments adapt by recruiting more women to become, say, engineers and economists?

Will the college experience change for all students when women are the clear majority, such as a lessened interest in sports? And if men achieve more affluent careers, will colleges suffer loss of alumni donations? Classrooms may be quiter if female students ask fewer questions and hesitate to argue, or the paucity of male voices could allow heretofore passive women to speak in class.

Heterosexual dating and marriage selection will be affected by a campus ratio as high as “two girls for every guy,” as the old Jan & Dean song said. Supply and demand would give men more relationship power with so many extra women to choose among. Even shy and plain guys will attract female attention. Will women feel they are competing with one another more than ever?

I’m curious about what problems are highlighted by college administrators when they proclaim that more men must be recruited.

West Coast Prof, at 3:15 pm EDT on May 23, 2007

A Bigger Issue

To me, the issue with the gender gap in college enrollment has more to do with how our males are being socialized. Why do they not know about the opportunities available to them through their full-time jobs? Why do they not know about public transportation schedules?? Because they haven’t bothered to pur in the time to find out about them. But this is not necessarily their fault (entirely). Males continue to be babied by their mothers, sisters and girlfriends...and they take advantage of that. So how are they to be expected to break this habit? Instead adding all of these services just for men, we need to teach them how to do the work for themselves. Otherwise, even if they do go to and graduate from college, how much are they going to be able to offer out in the real world if they are still used to having eveything done for them. We need to start teaching our males to be as resourceful as our females.

Alexis, Master’s Candidate: Student Affairs (PASA) at Univ. of Southern CA, at 4:20 pm EDT on May 23, 2007

Remember That Guy Who Sat In The Front Row?

When I was a Ph.D. student in mathematics, many of my courses were taught by the (R.L.) Moore method where there was no textbook, the prof would unload a few definitions, lemmas, and maybe a theorem or two, and then throw out a question or challenge ... and it was up to us to do all the work and make the presentation.

In several of my topology classes there was this guy I’ll call Forrest G. who often prepared the most trivial questions the night before the class meeting and when the prof asked, “Any questions?” he would pose one of his simple-minded queries. Of course the prof would ask, “Who wants to tackle that?” and since the answers were always so obvious, no one would volunteer. Then up would go Forrest’s hand, and he would scramble to the board and provide (almost always a less than sophisticated) solution to his own question ... and take my word for the fact that in mathematics optimality, cleverness, and “sophistication” are greatly valued. In any event, over the years Forrest established his reputation as a not-too-bright guy, and he moved on even short of being ABD.

That said, here are some interesting stereotypes ...

1. “Men have a lock on all opportunities to education.”

2. “Betty Friedan [told us], “we can’t allow women to have the option of being a housewife; feminists must force all women into the work force.”

3. Some men had an opportunity to “stay at home ... and think of new ways to oppress women.”

4. Sad to say, while women were never expected to be in harms way, men – both rich and poor – had to serve in the military, “die in the trenches, mines, in burning structures (fire fighters), under farm implements & animals, ground up in industrial machines, on sinking ships, etc. to support women and children (and give up their seat in the life boats) generally did not have more than one option.”

It’s not that anyone introduced those stereotypes into the discussion before Dr. F. Gump arrived on the scene, but not to worry, he will both stood them up and shot them down ... a la my fellow graduate student of yesteryear, Forrest G.

Two concluding remarks: First, I seriously doubt that too many women are going to line up for Dr. Gump’s seminar on how a really clever woman can let a man think he is running the show while she uses her feminine whiles to direct the process from the back seat of the limousine.

Second, I imagine there are more than a few women who would prefer death by suicide to a “comfortable” life with Joseph Stalin ... so Gump’s reference to Nadezhda Allilueva is very strange indeed. Perhaps she was less a “victim of feminism” than a victim of the realization that her husband was the cause of the deaths of millions of Ukranians, the banishment of untold numbers of his countrymen to slave camps in Siberia, and a first-class jackass on top of that.

[Disclaimer: The author of this post may have accessed Wikipedia within the past 24 hours]

Frizbane Manley, at 5:00 pm EDT on May 23, 2007

Why fewer men?

Maybe it’s simpler that women are smarter, and men are dumber. With equal opportunity, it’s finally obvious.

ferris factoid, at 4:30 am EDT on May 24, 2007

Alternate explanation

And it just might be that you’re a misandrist bigot, ferris.

firebrand, at 8:20 am EDT on May 24, 2007

One factor that MAY affect boys’ interest in school and hence their representation in college is the traditional methodology we tend to use to teach them. Many boys seem to respond better to fast-paced, hands-on lessons with lots of discovery learning and limited lecturing from the instructor. They like to move around and engage in activities that require short bursts of energy and then on to the next thing. The typical lecture-notetaking model used in college is torture for them. Another factor is problems associated with male social development in the early teen years. I have a 13 year old son who, despite being of average to above average intelligence, is in all Basic classes in Middle School and failing spectacularly — and deliberately —in all of them. The problem is not lack of involvement from parents — believe me when I say we have tried everything. The problem is that boys who do even moderately well in school are seen as GEEKS, the absolutely worst thing you can be if you are a young teenaged boy. They are also bullied mercilessly. In general, the priority for boys at that age is the relationship with peers and to be seen as COOL. This need to be “cool” seems to be less important to girls, perhaps because many of them bond with one or a few primary friends and get their peer valuation from them. This extreme value placed on peer opinion and conformity does not seem to diminish for boys until the late teen years. By that time, they lack the skills they need and the confidence necessary to succeed scholastically.

Elizabeth Bellas, Instructor, at 9:05 am EDT on May 24, 2007

These studies are funny

On average, women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes. When that’s no longer the case, then I’ll fret about all the men who aren’t going to college.

BR, at 9:15 am EDT on May 24, 2007

It seems to me that the real problem won’t be solved by free textbooks and bus passes. The issue is a general lack of vision and personal responsibility. Many young people today seem either unwilling or unable to work to make their dreams come true. When I was a student, I worked full-time and completed my studies and still had time to maintain a limited social life and figure out basic things (on my own) such as public transportation. I was hellbent on getting my education, because I understood that it would allow me to live the life that I wanted. We spoon feed kids today to the point of making them incapable of standing on their own two feet. The question is why are more young women today doing what is necessary to position themselves to achieve their goals, while many young men seem stuck. I don’t know if “men’s studies” are the answer to the problem, but they might help people study the problem and allow somebody figure out what has happened to male drive.

TFM, at 10:00 am EDT on May 24, 2007

I’ve heard this theory before, but I don’t buy it. Classes today consist of more hands-on activities and less lecturing and note-taking than they did in the days when the college classroom was dominated by men. If this theory were correct, the general trend would be exactly the opposite of what we’re seeing. (If anything, my experience suggests that male students — on the average, and with many exceptions — tend to be more comfortable with the lecture-centered, the-professor-is-the-authority style of teaching, while female students tend to be more invested in discussions and group activities.)

Anyway, I think you’re very much on target with your second suggestion; for one reason or another, many of our young men seem to have been socialized to regard academic success as uncool.

NC, at 10:50 am EDT on May 24, 2007

Regarding the comment above about how boys aren’t instructed correctly and need a different environment to learn. I really wonder about this claim. The *only* way to argue this is on the basis of nurture. That is, that boys nowadays are inherently different than boys of yesteryear (but girls aren’t?).

That is, education was sit down, shut up, be lecture to and perform on tests for CENTURIES of male domination! It seemed that it worked then? Or was it that we just expected that only a certain percentage of the population needed or more accurately perhaps nowadays *wanted* a job or career that involved thought over action.

I think we’d be doing a big part of the population a huge service if we were offering job specific training for things that can’t be outsourced — plumbing, electrician, electric line maintenance, construction, etc. The beauty of community colleges is that they are there — if after 10 years of working at a job like the above someone wants to branch out, learn to run his/her own business, learn to market a product they’ve developed? Well, at that point they’d be motivated learners who are able to speak up about what they want and need. Male or female.

Jendo89@aol.com, at 10:50 am EDT on May 24, 2007

Feminists-Give the Boys a Break

Let me just say that the attitudes of some of the so-called “feminists” in this comments section are appalling to me. As our nation becomes more unequal, and wealth is increasingly concentrated in a smaller and smaller group, such a decline in interest in school—boys or girls—is a real problem. Make no mistake, the priveleged classes will not feel the brunt of this. This is not going to result in fewer men in the executive boardroom. It’s just going to mean fewer men of color and fewer men of diverse socioeconomic backgrounds. This is a real problem, and to see the reactions of women that seem to imply that these boys deserve the lot their given is sickening, and shows the limits of the old style of feminism. Men are human beings, and society is failing them, especially the poor and men of color. Women who see this as an opportunity are woefully misguided, and it makes THIS man question your intelligence.

Eric, at 12:30 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Look, for decades now women have been told that they are victims, opprssed and must fight for every opportunity to overcome their historical enslavement...and to do that we have all these programs to help you. Men in schools were told that they were the oppressors, and by virtue of having been born male had the world at their feet. No special programs to help YOU. It’s as simple as that. Being told you have the world at your feet when you are a high school student working 30 hours a week and have no money for tuition may not be the best way to encourage boys to go to college. I certainly think a few less angy women teachers would have made high school and college a bit less stressful for most of my friends.

Scott, at 12:30 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Mens participation in college

The elephant in the room related to mens decline in college is associated with the increasing role sports plays in mens lives in high school. The days when sports was an extracurricular activity are gone. Sports is the center of boys lives in high school and they spend so much time at it that their academic interests and ability decline throughout high school declines. By the end of high school and increasing number of boys can shoot hoops and run a ball, but they lack the most basic academic skills, and are not ready for college. So they do not attend college, and when they do they do not finish, and when they finish they do not do as well as women. And if they manage to get through do not go on to graduate school.

Then to ask why boys don’t go to college? Well the entire high school system now is designed to entertain grown men with their young boys, with scant attention to academics. Why don’t they go, we never taught them nor encouraged them (really) to do so. Why america celebrates the dumb guy I will never understand.

ST, at 12:30 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Why Men Are Behind

Here are some extemporaneous thoughts about why boys and men are being left behind:

1) A mass media that depicts boys and men as idiots.

2) A culture we’re imposing on children of “little adulthood"—highly sexualized, competitive, and plain mean. Boys have always been mean to other boys, but now girls are joining them. Used to be that girls were nice to the geeky boys. They aren’t anymore. This new breed of American female is not compassionate, but sassy and mean. I suspect feminism has a role to play in that.

3) The increased prominence of homosexuality in society and culture is causing a homophobic panic that effects even boys. Most men in this country are homophobic, and I suspect they are reacting to the increased exposure of homosexuality by supressing any “girly” tendency in their male children. Non-normative tendencies or interests that used to be tolerated are now suppressed. Boys are more limited in what shape their identities can take, and they feel trapped. Being studious is not only “not cool” for boys, more importantly it’s “not masculine.” Masculine and cool can hardly be separated anymore.

Eric Eagan, at 12:30 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Stop Looking for Excuses

As the Dean of a small liberal arts college, I’ve known this problem for years. Young men (black and white) have been brought up to believe that academic success is not “manly.” at most colleges the all-female gpa is at least.5 of a point higher than the all male average. At our institution, women are usually 85% of the Jr Marshall and Who’s Who rosters. Women are also the most active outside the classroom as well. They dominate the Student Govt Assoc and control most of the clubs. Genrally, the men let them and spend their time playing video games and drinking games.

No one wants to talk about this publically, but my peers at other institutions say that their male students are very much the same.

I’ve stopped trying to motivate them. It’s time that they learned some tough lessons about the real world. Those who want to succeed have to work hard. It’s that simple.

Gartrip, Dean of Students, at 12:35 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Let boys do what they want to do

If Gartrip and others are right, boys would rather do sports and play games than be academic successes. So why not let them do what they want to do?

Forcing boys to do things because you don’t like having women in positions of knowledge is very weird. What could your motives be? I think it disparages both sexes to claim that women aren’t fine as they are, doing what they’ve chosen to do.

How about letting the kids alone? The best male students, in my experience, have been returning adult veterans.

ferris factoid, at 2:20 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Mr. Gartrip, How do you know that girls just don’t take easier classes ?

Mr. Eagan, Can you explain how feminism made girls act mean to geeky boy but not mean boys.

Larry, at 3:45 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

There are many valid points addressed here in the comments. However, I think that society at large has an interest in finding outlets for young boys and young male adults’ energy and desire to be valued. Because we all know that all boys have a tremendous ability to act out and cause mayhem when neglected. I think pot and video games can only go so far...and can have serious consequences down the road. Further, the argument that lectures and rote memorization worked for the male-dominated academy for hundreds of years also forgets that very few boys actually went to college during that time, and were mostly drawn from the upper classes who had been painstakingly schooled in showing decorum. Boys who do not show aptitude for sitting down and concentrating on a book or math problem should be introduced to a vocational program as soon as possible. In my high school in the late 80s/early 90s, only the “stupid” kids went to the vocational school, an unwarranted prejudice that I regret sharing. I definitely could have benefited from a shop class or an auto service class.

ace, at 4:50 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Gartrip’s follow-up

Well, we have studied the “gender-success” issue internally, and we have not found that women take easier classes. In fact, we have more women in the sciences now than men. (Men outnumber women in Business and Sports related fields and Poli Sci.) Ultimately, I think it comes down to maturity. I’m generalizing of course, but our female students seem to have a stronger focus with respect to academics. They also (as a group) demonstrate a greater appreciation for what a college education costs (in dollars) and for the role it plays in their future success. I have also found that women make better choices with respect to behavior. Our student body is 58% female, yet our disciplinary load is 70% male. Women are less likely to steal, cheat, vandalize, commit acts of violence, abuse drugs, etc... Our studies show a strong connection between disciplinary history and academic success. Of course, it goes without saying that these are trends. We do have female students who fail to achieve, and we have male students who do quite well. All in all however, the female students are out-performing their male counterparts. Will this trend continue? Who knows? What I can say is that these observations would not have been true 10 yrs ago.

Gartrip, Dean of Students, at 5:55 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Looking for male students

Perhaps back in the day, boys had a built-in confidence-builder in that they were seen as superior in all respects. Girls hung back, allowing the boys to “rule the school” to such an extent that even geeks, jocks, etc., felt powerful and destined to succeed. There is probably a great relief in seeing about half your competitors as inferior and incompetent. “I may not be so great, but at least I’m better than the women.”

Betty H. White, at 8:50 pm EDT on May 24, 2007

Organizations, Mentorships and Scholarships for Men

Women and minorities have ‘gotten on top’ by creating targeted organizations, having scholarships targeted for them, and having mentorship programs created specifically, especially for them.

I was appalled to learn that my Indian friend was given an NSF minority scholarship to learn mathematics. Come on! Indians are NOT underrepresented in the field!

Men should have these programs for them, and the cultural misandry that exists on campuses should be stomped out. Perhaps an organization like FIRE for men.

My $.02

—Jon S, white grad math student

Jon S, Organizations, Mentorships and Scholarships for Men, at 4:40 am EDT on May 25, 2007

“Looking for Male Students”

One thing that’s been overlooked is the society we live in today. A society that says that ‘guys’ don’t go to college (unless it’s a party school, or you’re a jock) because it makes them somehow weak, less manly. I’ve seen it myself.

Joe Franklin, at 4:40 am EDT on May 25, 2007

One question has always bothered me about this assertion. How have the actual NUMBERS of men attending college changed over the years. Not the percentage of the student body, but the number, or at least the percentage of overall population. Obviously the number of women has increased dramatically, but the number of students applying to and attending college has increased too. So, are there really less boys going to college, or are there just so many more women who are being reached by recruiters that the guys are suddenly being overwhelmed? Basically, have we really failed the men, or are the same groups of men who always went to college still going to college? Do we need to work on recruiting more upper middle class to upper class men, or do we need to focus on better elementary, middle, and high school education for minorities to increase their representation? In short, are we really panicking about the right problem here?

NT, at 4:40 am EDT on May 25, 2007

Are they so dense?

The original article and a lot of the postings seem to assume as a fact that young men are fairly dense. The portrait of them suggests a moronic group that can’t manage to get on the bus, come to class, listen, read, or think.

Is this really what posters think of young men? Who would want to breed with such creatures?

Obviously the human race is on its last legs.

ferris factoid, at 4:40 am EDT on May 25, 2007

I am glad to see college trying to recruit males. Not every male was assumed to go to college. In the African American community it was traditional that the females go to college to become teachers. The boys were usually sent to the military, the educational opportunities for those young men were limited by discrimination. But the history of females going to college was established.

Often young men are chastised as being nerds, geeks or just social rejects if they want to better their lives through education. We, as a country, have created the done much socially and politically to disassociate males from education. Perhaps the most harm was with the men of color.

But the trump card has begun to be played. On college campuses, young women are fighting over the few available men. In many circles it is becoming accepted that an educated man will have his choice of multiple partners. It is not due to the fact that he is god’s gift to women but just a result of supply and demand.

Women of a certain age must now be on guard. As the younger more attractive females are no longer able to find educated mates in their age group who do you think they are going to come after?

dave, Men and Education (the other side), at 10:10 am EDT on May 25, 2007

Women students don’t fight over the men

I don’t know what universe contains the posters who describe today’s college women as fighting over the few available college men.

The college women I know find their male classmates insufferably boorish and boring. The women may have sex with them (hookups), but they have higher standards for relationships. For those they choose older men, or other women, or being happily independent.

Young men need to grow up and make themselves worthy of today’s young women.

Ferris Factoid, at 9:10 pm EDT on May 26, 2007

start frettin’, BR

...because your figures are way out of date, BR. Of men and women entering the workforce since 1980, women make $1.08 for every $1 a man makes. The imbalance is worse when you discount the obscene salaries of certain CEOs (read: thieves). Frettin’ yet?

aitatxua, at 9:55 pm EDT on May 27, 2007

Two Things ...

First, one of the missing ingredients in this discussion – insofar as we respondents are concerned — is the fact that Scott’s original article is about community college enrollments. When you control for age and minority status, the gender enrollment figures for “traditional” undergraduates are pretty much a wash (so don’t worry Swarthmore and Reed). But once you focus attention on the much broader range of students likely to attend community colleges — e.g., students over 24 years old and minority students — you’ll see the difference ... men are opting out rather significantly.

Is it a problem? I happen to think so (see my first post), but whether it is or is not a problem is something we will not know until we turn some creative research scholars loose on the phenomena. For a fairly good article on the subject, see “Gender Equity in Higher Education: 2006” by Jacqueline E. King (Director of the American Council on Education’s Center for Policy Analysis)

http://www.aacu.org/ocww/volume35_3/feature.cfm?section=2

Second, there are soooo many relevant variables in the mix, it is close to silly to say “On average, women make 77 cents for every dollar a man makes” (BR) or “Of men and women entering the workforce since 1980, women make $1.08 for every $1 a man makes” (aitatxua). It is especially silly to make such meaningless statements in the absence of supportive citations.

To make my point, about the comparisons being variable-dependent, here’s just one of many possible quotations ...

“College faculty generally suffered losses in the purchasing power of their salaries from 1972-73 to 1980-81, when average salaries fell 17 percent after adjustment for inflation. During the 1980s, average salaries were on the rise and have recouped most of the losses. Changes in 1990-91 and 1991-92 were relatively small. Average salaries for men in 1991-92 ($46,848) were considerably higher than the average for women ($37,534) and have increased at a faster rate since 1980-81.”

http://www.ed.gov/pubs/Prog95/pt2stat.html

Even so, the comparison above doesn’t take into account “discipline,” “tenure status,” “time in rank,” etc. Income comparison’s are always waaay more complex than individuals who casually toss numbers around would have you think.

I’m certainly not citing the following article as proof of anything, but it is certainly more open-minded about salary differences between men and women than our discussion has been.

http://blogs.payscale.com/ask_dr_salary/2007/04/men_vs_women_sa.html

RWH, at 12:05 pm EDT on May 28, 2007

BR, check your ‘facts’. That ‘women make 77 cents to the men’s dollar’ nonsense hugely misrepresents the world. The statistic is a lie spread widely and effectively.

anon, at 4:35 am EDT on June 6, 2007

What is the real point here?

To those who gave thought to the issue in a sincere, thoughtful way, kudos!

But....I am surprised that the discussion has not evolved more into “how can we adequately bring about representation of everyone in the culture,” but rather devolved into an “us versus them” tenor, one that seeks to find blame on the perceived “other side” of the argument. I recently read Deborah Tannen’s “Argument Culture” and found that the artificial binary (Black vs. White, Evil vs. Good) is alive and well and it simplifies the issue to the point where we can take pot-shots at each other without truly engaging in meaning-making and solutions. Bummer, since it’s not so helpful and/or useful in the long run, is it?

Best,

~LL

FYI, here’s a source for reading about the gender gap in pay.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/womenspay.htm

LL, at 4:06 pm EDT on June 7, 2007

LL, I just don’t think many have much heart for men. They have such an advantage, they have no need to worry about fair representation. Men have it made, right? They have all the privileges (and only receive privileges), and they have everything handed to them because of the patriarchy and that they happened to be born with certain body parts. Why worry about those that have it easy? They aren’t the ones that need society’s concern, right?

Things are working themselves out just as many seem to want it to. Those that claimed to want everyone represented are now more fully letting their true colors show.

anon, at 5:35 am EDT on June 11, 2007