Sept. 14, 2007

Big Legal Loss for Fraternities

The College of Staten Island can deny official recognition to a fraternity because it excludes women, a federal appeals court ruled Thursday.

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Staten Island officials had argued before the lower court that the fraternity’s denial of membership to women violated the college’s policy barring discrimination on the basis on gender. The fraternity had argued that the college’s denial of recognition prevented it from receiving needed funds, using university facilities and recruiting at student orientations, and restricted its membership because members and potential members had difficulty traveling to off-campus events.

Judge Dora L. Irizarry concluded that the college’s policy improperly infringed on the fraternity’s First Amendment right to freedom of association. Irizarry, citing the fraternity as an “organization that promotes congeniality and a supportive social structure for male students,” found Alpha Epsilon Pi to be an “intimate association” that deserved the First Amendment’s full protection, outweighing Staten Island’s interests in carrying out its nondiscrimination policy. The lower court issued a preliminary injunction — which Staten Island and CUNY officials promptly appealed — that called for the college to recognize the fraternity and to drop a prohibition against the group’s recruitment and “rushing” activities.

The lower court was heralded by advocates for fraternities as an important new legal tool to protect their interests. A 2006 article that appeared on the blog of the Foundation for Individual Rights, for instance, argued that fraternities have typically only qualified for “expressive” association rights, earned primarily when an organization has “taken positions on issues and actively exercised its members’ right to speak.”

Granting First Amendment protection to fraternities “based on their being a locus of intimate association [between members],” argued William Creeley, a FIRE staff member, “would mean that fraternities could garner protection based primarily on the private aspects of their group: their selectivity, size, and seclusion from the public eye. For fraternities and sororities across the country, Judge Irizarry’s order may signal a new means for Greeks to protect their First Amendment freedoms — even their right to exist — from zealous administrators.”

In its ruling Thursday, however, the three-judge panel of the Second Circuit appeals court specifically undercut the reach of the “intimate association” protection that fraternity advocates had heralded.

“Rather than balancing [the college’s] interests in its non-discrimination policy against the fraternity’s interests in opposing the policy, the district court adopted a categorical approach: Either the policy affected a constitutionally protected liberty or it did not. The court reasoned that, if [Staten Island’s] policy affected a constitutionally protected interest, the ‘[i]ntrusion on [the] group’s freedom of association [wa]s subject to strict scrutiny,” the toughest legal standard. “In other words, the district court made no distinction between association claims that are strongly protected by the First Amendment and those that are weakly protected; as long as some First Amendment interest was implicated by the policy, the policy would be subjected to the rigors of strict scrutiny.”

The appeals panel’s decision questions the extent to which the fraternity deserves to be treated as an “intimate association” warranting the strongest possible Constitutional protection. “Based on its size, level of selectivity, purpose, and inclusion of non-members, the fraternity lacks the characteristics that typify groups with strong claims to intimate association,” the panel’s ruling said. But it focuses its argument on the assertion that the college’s nondiscrimination policy and subsequent denial of recognition and funds does not so impair the fraternity that the regulation unfairly undermines its First Amendment right.

The College of Staten Island’s policy “does not prevent the Fraternity from continuing to exist, to hold intimate meetings, to exclude women, or to exercise selectivity in choosing new members. Denial of recognition has consequences primarily for the Fraternity’s non-intimate aspects. CSI’s denial of use of school facilities interferes more with the Fraternity’s ability to solicit strangers from future classes to become new members than it interferes with the ability of its existing members to gather and share intimate associations.”

Advocates for fraternities said they had not had a chance to fully digest the Second Circuit’s decision, but given how favorably they had reacted to the lower court’s ruling, they are certain to be gravely disappointed by the appeals court’s ruling.

Officials at CUNY referred questions about the decision to the New York Solicitor General’s office, which represented the university in the case. Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, whose office oversees the solicitor general, issued a written statement that said: “We are pleased that the court has recognized the school’s right to deny funds and official recognition to a student organization which discriminates against women. This opinion rightly enables the College of Staten Island to pursue their commitment to creating a community devoid of prejudice.”

— Doug Lederman

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Comments

Seriously, what woman would want to join a fraternity? What is this about? Maybe I should read more newspapers. Does this mean that now the Chi Omegas and Tri Delts will have to admit men to their sorority rush, too? Can we look forward to Guy Pi Phi’s?

I remember a court case a few years back in which someone sued a Catholic seminary for religious discrimination because they didn’t let a nonbeliever into their priesthood.

Amazed bystander, at 7:40 am EDT on September 14, 2007

Unlike frats, religious beliefs enjoy some protection from nondiscrimination laws due to the first amendment. Strangely enough, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against fratboys or sorority girls (as they prefer to be called), and I am proud to say that I actively do so.

Larry, at 8:45 am EDT on September 14, 2007

Beginning of the End

Perhaps this will be the beginning of the end of an outmoded institution that is inimical to the mission of higher education. The Greek system is an anachronism, a relic, a dinosaur & it is time for it to go extinct.

Joseph Duemer, Professor at Clarkson University, at 9:10 am EDT on September 14, 2007

Think again about discriminating

And Larry, how do you know that members of social fraternities (the correct term for both men’s and women’s Greek letter social organizations) prefer to be called “fratboys” and “sorority girls"? Even now, many years after earning my Ph.D., I am proud to be known as an alumna of a women’s social fraternity. You never know whether the “sorority girl” you are actively discriminating against (what an admission!) might actually be contemplating a serious academic career. I wonder why you would want to shut that off so capriciously.

Dr. Fraternity Member, at 9:10 am EDT on September 14, 2007

As a woman, I say... GIVE. ME. A BREAK.

Dumbest thing I’ve read all week.

Eyeroller, at 10:00 am EDT on September 14, 2007

Let Larry be Larry!

” .. Larry, how do you know that members of social fraternities .. prefer to be called “fratboys” and “sorority girls"?”

Excuse moi. Is this line of questioning, an possible infringement on Lar’s academic freedom? Just asking.

IMHO, Greeks are a bit wacky. But what is lacking today, IMHO, is “live and let live.” As long as they don’t infringe on others’ academic freedom —

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cfnn7wTgoE8

Where’s the beef? (HT to the late Clara Peller and Johnnie Cochran.)

BTW: at the risk being accused of being hetero-normative — I can’t imagine women wanting to join my friends’ frats. Unless they like to beer-bong, chest-pound, scream-and-yell, “read” Maxim, and — of course — excel academically.

Buzz, at 10:00 am EDT on September 14, 2007

Common Sense

Sadly, this ruling is yet another example of our society’s collective loss of common sense.

Chris, DePaul University, at 10:30 am EDT on September 14, 2007

risk isn’t worth it

Dr. Fraternity Member, Yes, it is true that sometimes members of sororities are called “sorostitutes.” However, that is not politically correct. While it is possible that they (whatever they want to be called) might be “considering” a “serious academic career,” experience has taught many people that they just don’t take the work too seriously and spend more time talking about shoes and exposing themselves. Maybe this is true. Maybe it isn’t. Whatever the case, many of us won’t take the risk.

Larry, at 10:35 am EDT on September 14, 2007

I guess Larry and Buzz fully believe the stereotypes of all fraternity and sorority members. Just curious what other stereotypes they hold as well. Larry what did these frat boys and sorority girls do to you that you have such hatred toward them? The actions of a few do not speak for the group as a whole. Discrimination is such a waste of energy and time no matter what group it may be.

As a proud Greek alum I guess I am one of those dumb frat boys that graduated with honors, currently pursuing a masters, and applying for PhD programs at the moment.

Jeff, at 10:35 am EDT on September 14, 2007

Give me a break

This is crazy and one of the most absurd things I have read. Also, I find Larry’s comment quite offensive to the Greek community and by a comment like that it is quite obvious that Larry never participated in Greek Life. Because if he had he would know that Fraternity men find it pretty offensive when they are called “fratboys.” Just reading that word made me cringe sitting here at my desk. Just because people are a member of a Greek Organization does not mean they are not serious about their education.

Justin, at 10:35 am EDT on September 14, 2007

sorry I offended Justin and Jeff

Justin and Jeff, I am sorry that you are offended. However, in the real world we must all deal with various levels of offense. Indeed, in most circles, claiming to be “offended” is not a substitute for an argument, it is actually removing oneself from the argument.

You can be proud of whatever you want. I do not really care. However, since just about every member of a frat or sorority that I have come across chose to act like a stereotype, I won’t hire you.

Once again, I am sorry that I offended you. I don’t know why it matters that you are “applying” to PhD programs. Likewise, since I attended an undergraduate institution without your kind, I don’t know why my lack of experience in a frathouse matters.

I did like the movie “Animal House,” however.

Larry, at 10:50 am EDT on September 14, 2007

Underground

In the days before Farternities were officially recognized, there existed institutions such as “Skull & Bones". The net effect of this ruling will simply push fraternities underground creating new versions of “Secret Societies". This will give the Universities less control, but more protection in regards to their liability insurance. Which as we all know is in today’s world the number one priority of colleges, protecting their wealth.

Robert, at 10:50 am EDT on September 14, 2007

Fraternities are for guys, sororities are for girls. that’s the way it is, and the way it’s always been.

patrick, at 11:25 am EDT on September 14, 2007

fraternities can perpetuate inequality

“What woman would want to join a fraternity?"How about a woman who would like to access the privileges and benefits of fraternity alumni networks in order to advance her professional career and give her greater access to power?

Fraternities and sororities are not merely a highly organized forum for partying. They have both positive and negative traits just like the rest of society. On the plus side, they provide opportunities for developing leadership and social skills, instilling philanthropic values, providing social support during college, and of course, fostering relationships and networks that will last a lifetime.

Most members of Greek-letter organizations tend to come from wealthier backgrounds. If the dues alone did not preclude lower-income students, the cultural norms and exclusive social selectivity will.

I was a member of a fraternity that initially aimed to be progressive and alternative, inspite of being affiliated with a traditional, mainstream national. However, my internal attempts to change our local policies to admit women, gays and lesbians, as well as to increase more low-income members all failed.

To me the biggest argument against fraternities and sororities does not stem from the exaggerated stereotypes. Rather it is because they serve to perpetuate social inequality.

John S, at 11:55 am EDT on September 14, 2007

“Take it easy,” Rodney say

The late, great Rodney Dangerfield used to say, when someone would get upset, “let’s take it, e-a-s-y.”

As to this — ” .. The actions of a few do not speak for the group as a whole.”

Yes, I know some Greeks who became MDs, JDs, and MBAs. Good people.

I also know a few who drank themselves into emergency rooms. To ignore the latter is to ignore reality. Like this —

http://www.amazon.com/Real-Animal...e-Awesomely-Fraternity/dp/0316057010

Further, consider “Otter” in “Animal House” — “All it takes is a few, thoughtless members ..” Dean Wormer’s reply: “Put a sock in it, son.”

Talk-radio is going to have a field day with this ruling. As noted once by USA Today: “Men, women: we’re still different.” Allegedly.

Buzz, at 12:05 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

Larry

It’s well known that 99 percent of the lawyers make the rest look bad. Sorry if I’ve offended you but I don’t care. I won’t let my daughter date lawyers.

Max, at 12:05 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

Women in Frats

There is a real danger here. Fraternity Houses are common settings for sexual assaults. One in four females admit being sexually assaulted while in college and this is probably under reported. A second related proble is that most college and university officials under report, minimize or do not report campus crimes to protect their institution’s publc image. This is a violation of The Clery Act. Howard Robboy, Ph.D. Sociology, The College of New Jersey Advisory Board Member, The Clery’s, Security on Campus Inc.Brother, Sigma Phi Epsilon

Howard Robboy, Associate Professor of Sociology at The College of New Jersey, at 1:00 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

Harsh, but also True!

There are going to be multiple sides to the discussion of whether the Greek System is beneficial or destructive to the social fabric and academic missions of many colleges and universities. And there are multiple research supported facts that can show both the pros and cons of having a Greek System on your campus. And everyone has some individual experience that will form their opinion on the matter. The argument cannot and will not be won by one side or the other.

The strength of the individual parts in any “system” will determine its longevity.

So “Greeks”, ask yourself, are you really comfortable with your direct association of all the parts of the Greek System. The increase in public criticism of Greek Life on all fronts (social, academic, legal) would say many of you are not. The Greek System is dying, slowly but surely. So go underground, because those of you who “need to” are best suited to be there anyway.

Markel, Administrator, at 1:00 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

We must remember that although Greek affiliated students on campuses across the country may potentially be involved with binge drinking, hazing, sexually illicit acts, etc. these are not the only students doing such things.

Greek students are in fact college students. College students in general participate in such activities. It is easy to classify all Greek students together as alcoholics and sexually promiscuous because they are members of a group. Whereas it is more difficult to call out Sally and Billy who are not members of a Greek organization but yet participate in the same such activities week in and week out because they have no affiliation to a national organization.

Look at our residence halls that have alcohol related injuries and arrests almost daily, look at our athletics programs that hide the hazing of our student-athletes. These activities are not just limited to our Greek students and this is something that we must remember.

I am sure if you went to an institution where there were no social fraternities or sororities students participated in the same activities that Greek and non-Greeks alike partake in on campuses across the country.

Ellen, at 1:00 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

The Bigger Picture

Participation in fraternities and sororities is one of the few forms of college engagement that actually have an adverse effect on many aspects of student development. I believe that this is, in part, due to the male-dominated and frivolous cultures that many (albeit not all) of these organizations perpetuate. And, I believe it is time for these cultures to change or dissolve. This is a win in my book.

The Bigger Picture, at 1:15 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

Did anyone actually read the article or case?

The comments so far seem to have little to do with the article or case and have devolved into an indictment on the Greek system.

The circuit court ruled that there had to be a balance established between a campus-based organization’s right to have rules of membership and the institution’s internal policies. They ruled that the institution’s rights are more important in this case. Nowhere does it say that Greek organizations must change membership policies or that their policies are remotely unconstitutional. If the institution did not have this internal policy, there would be no basis for a law suit.

Carter, at 2:00 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

The Real Big Picture

The Bigger Picture missed the real bigger picture here. It is another frivolous lawsuit that is clogging up our legal system. While people who are suing big companies for giving them cancer or for being wrongfully terminated sit and wait while going broke with medical bills and no paychecks, some college is trying to make a point to its fraternities.

While John S. makes a good point, Why any woman would want to be part of a social fraternity vs a sorority is beyond me. Social fraternities would only give a woman a greater chance to get drunk and wind up dead somewhere than if she stayed with a sorority.

As for the campus “fraternities” that should truly matter, like Phi Beta Lamba or Phi Beta Kappa, women already exist as members since they are co-ed.

Rick Fox, at 3:10 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

The Real Bigger Picture, P.S

P.S. These are the kinds of lawsuits that wind up costing so much that tuition could be affected. What good did the lawsuit do for most of the students then?

Rick Fox, at 3:10 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

I agree with Prof. Duemer’s comment. The Greek system is little more than sanctioned exclusion and is a haven for good-old-boys. The sooner it is destroyed, the better.

Most Greeks are true to the stereotypes, sadly enough. Those that go on to solid careers and lifestyles? I have little doubt that they could have done so without the dubious involvement of a fraternity/sorority in their lives.

T.A., at 3:50 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

Agree with eyeroller

Eyeroller, I agree that it Dr. Frat’s comments were pretty dumb, but why does your sex have anything to do with it?

Buzz, She can ask anything she wants. But I am not obligated to refer to “sorority girls” by their politically-correct terms.

Larry, King of Norway, at 4:25 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

question for Patrick

Were you one of those people that would say, “Whites and colors don’t mix.. that is the way it has always been"?

Larry, at 4:25 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

Yup

” .. I have little doubt that they could have done so without the dubious involvement of a fraternity/sorority in their lives ..”

And there’s plenty of peer-reviewed research that infers intelligent, highly-motivated individuals meet their goals, no matter if they go to college or not.

That is: college is NOT necessary for success in life. Given the usual suspects (e.g., Ward, Billy, Noam), that appears very clear, IMHO.

Buzz, at 6:40 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

Larry and Other Biggots

It amazes me how “you people” that are siding with University for being so riteous for standing up to the exclusivity and discrimination of fraternities are, yourselves, sitting at the same table as those you ridicule. “However, since just about every member of a frat or sorority that I have come across chose to act like a stereotype, I won’t hire you.” —This comment gives me just as much grounds to file suit and claim discrimination as my orgainization’s gender rules. In argument to what has turned into a Greek bashing instead of the discussion about a discrimination case, I was a leader in highschool, an athlete, and a honor student. I joined my organization because the three core values that they focused on followed this suit. These “brothers” taught me the true meaning of the word. Yes, we did party together, but we also talked together, worked together, grew together, and, in turn, helped each other become men.

“Frat” boy, at 9:05 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

Humor

“Buzz, She can ask anything she wants ..”

Yes, Larry. Just trying to be humorous. Like, IS USING ALL CAPS, protected by “academic freedom?”

Sure. Just don’t get caught with the dean’s minor child, in a compromising position. That’s specifically exempted from “academic freedom” rules. Don’t push it — will make “double-secret probation” seem mild.

(And let’s not forget the “academic freedom” case of your namesake — Larry Summers, former Harvard University president and Clintonite, R.I.P. If that wasn’t weird, nothing is.)

Buzz, at 9:05 pm EDT on September 14, 2007

So what?

Who cares if we could have women in fraternities or men in sororities? As a non-Greek, I find this whole idea of same-gender-exclusive-societies strange. On top of that, I don’t see any *academic* benefit to these societies at all.

From my experience as a teacher, all that these Greek societies achieve is year after year is producing disruptive, unfocused students who have all the wrong priorities.

Non-Greek, at 4:05 pm EDT on September 15, 2007

OMG! Frat culture & Harvard Business School

http://conversationstarter.hbsp.c.../taking_the_frat_house_out_of_b.html

Wow. As Dean Wormer said: “no more fun of any kind!” Hoover notes later: “They’re not kidding! They mean it this time!”

Buzz, at 4:05 pm EDT on September 15, 2007

Why is Fratboy amazed?

Fratboy, Do you really think that your state’s civil rights laws actually protect you in the same way they protect against people discriminated against based on their religion on gender? Members of fraternities and sororities can be discriminated against with impunity, and you have no legal recourse. Ask your lawyer. Show me one lawsuit where someone successfully sued because they were discriminated against based on their membership in a fraternity. We don’t even need to send you rejection letters. We can even ask if you were a member of a fraternity, and terminate the interview right there. In fact, in just about all states, it is even legal to fire someone if they did not disclose this information when applying for jobs.

I don’t know why you are “amazed” that people don’t trust you. Maybe if you got out of your frathouse every now and then you wouldn’t be as amazed.

Larry, at 7:55 pm EDT on September 15, 2007

Does anyone know if the College of Staten Island has denied funding to ALL fraternities and sororities? It’s disturbing to see the legal hand stating a fraternity is discriminatory, but a sorority is not, if the College has in fact provided funding to sororities on-campus.

Brad, at 4:15 pm EDT on September 16, 2007

If my original post sounded harsh – it is because as a PhD candidate I have experienced much more moral and ethical decay within the academy than in my own greek organization. The same professors who discriminate against greek men and women are often the same people who are sleeping (or attempting to sleep with) their students and pick up drunk undergraduates at the local drinking establishments. They are often the same people who cheat on their spouses with TAs and students and purchase marijuana and other drugs from undergrads. I realize that the morally bankrupt academics and graduate students I have come across in my PhD program may be the minority. I wonder if the same courtesy could be extended to men and women of greek organizations. As an academic (and one that teaches a course on gender) the first thing I teach my students is not to essentialize. I suggest you all should do the same.

Karla, at 9:50 pm EDT on September 16, 2007

Not about religion

Brad, The opinion indicates that this is a channel to one specific ruling. No other organization joined, and no sorority attempted to mount a facial challenge. Whatever the case, the college did not say that its new interpretation applied only to fraternities.

Karla, The Second Circuit’s opinion indicates that while the organization is traditionally Jewish, its membership is not exclusively Jewish. (This could cut either way.) Therefore, your attempt to convert this into some kind religious issue is probably a non-starter. Likewise, everyone has high GPA, these days. Anyway, besides hazing people and gossiping, what kind of values did you learn from your sorority sisters that you could not have learned otherwise?

Larry, at 5:25 am EDT on September 17, 2007

Greek Wanabees

Awww, what’s wrong Larry (and all the other Greek bashers here)? Didn’t you get the Greek bid you wanted when you were in school? Yes, I know Larry, you said you went somewhere where there weren’t any of ‘our kind.’ The thing is, humans have a great need to group together in associations, and I’ll bet that there was some kind of group, underground or otherwise, at your school Larry. What happened, they wouldn’t let you join their club? Is that why you wage your little ’secret war’ against Greeks by not hiring them? Quit acting like such a child and grow up.I can only hope Larry that you one day have a boss who is a Greek alum and that you tell him or her about your little ’screening’ process. And you should hope none of your applicants every find out about it, especially if you reject them because they are Greek alums. If they do, better get yourself a good lawyer.

Max, at 3:15 pm EDT on September 17, 2007

legal protections for Greeks?

Max, You got a lot of anger there. I am a lawyer and you know I didn’t have the opportunity to “pledge” to be with your kind.Thank god.

Also, we don’t need to explain or justify our number of friends to people like you. We just don’t hire your type. And you also know that there is no prohibition against discriminating against members of fraternities in any state. Asking about fraternity activity in an interview is fair game.

I would urge you to contact your local congressperson to attempt to enshrine protections for fratboys into law rather than whining to me. I am sure they will get right on it.

Until then we just won’t hire them. Nor will many employers. They simply can’t take the risk that they place loyalty to their “brothers” or “sisters” above loyalty to an employer. For the life of me, I don’t see why anyone would want to be a “Greek” but I guess you can, if you want.

LArry, at 6:30 pm EDT on September 17, 2007

I am not saying you are or are not anything.

I am simply saying that you examine your own politics a little closer. Campus groups (such as the one in question) exist to perserve some aspect of their culture. In this case — it is Judiasm. In others, such as Alpha Kappa Alpha — it is African American. Perhaps you should do some research on the history of greek organizations. I think you will find it enlightening. I suggest beginning with the book Higher Education and the Southern Belle. There are also countless works on black social movements and fraternities as acts of resistance as well as feminist work on the connection between female sororial organizations and female literary societies.

I now have to get back to reading Kenneth Burke — someone you no doubt will discriminate against because he was also a “frat guy” or did you forget?

Karla, at 2:10 pm EDT on September 18, 2007

Greek Arrogance

As I have read through these postings, I find it so interesting that many of the statements made by fraternity members exhibit the very characteristics that are stereotypically though of in fraternity members. The most glaring example of this is the comments made by Max, assuming that the reason that Larry does not like fraternity members is because he was unable to join himself. There seems to be a view among many greek affiliated students that those who are not members are jealous of the the “greek lifestyle.” There may be a couple people out there, but the fact that there are people who want nothing more than to join fraternities or sororities and are not able to illustrates the exclusive, elitist, and arrogant nature of the greek system.

This arrogant attitude is the major reason that many university administrators, including those who were greek letter organization members, are so put off by working with fraternities and sororities.

In my experience as a former Greek Life advisor it has become clear to me that the “values” and “personal growth” that so many fraternity and sorority member speak of do not play anything other than a very minor role in the lives of the vast majority of greek affiliated students. The majority of these students are viewed stereotypically and, in their ignorance, are proud of the stereotypes that others have labeled them with. The sheer amount of drinking engaged in is a point of pride. Being more physically attractive than another group is a point of pride. Being physically stronger than another group is a point of pride.

When was the last time that you heard of a fraternity avoiding the bar or the keg and promoting their grade point average? This type of PR is done by the national organization (damage control) while the students on campus promote that which reinforces their role as the life of the party.

I agree that the greek system is an outdated, archaic system that once had a role to play on college campuses. Since more and more student interest groups are forming on college campuses, the need for the greek system has steadily declined. Greek membership has also declined. If the groups are becoming archaic, then let schools start to remove them from campuses. Greek letter organizations need the university, not the other way around. Universities have existed before fraternities and sororities, and will exist after them as well.

Geoff, at 6:25 pm EDT on September 18, 2007

Women in fraternities

As for the issue of the article, I have to say that, in my opinion, there is nothing in the world wrong with gender specific student groups. Men and women are different, so let them have different clubs.

Geoff, at 6:30 pm EDT on September 18, 2007

A rather spirited discussion I daresay!

To Professor Duemer:

I agree in part to your comment that Greek organizations will cease to exist: those that stray from their founding values, and that do not complement the academic and educational mission will die out; however, those that remain committed to their founding principles, which do in fact complement and support the academic mission, will exist, thrive, and continue to shape leaders of the future as long as society and academic institutions as we know them exist.

To address a very insightful comment made by Markel:

It is a great privilege and a great responsibility to be a member of a Greek organization; sadly, not all Greeks live up to this responsibility, which is why it is not always a positive association for members. To answer your question, I for one will bear all parts of that association, including the negative, that I might enjoy the positive as well.

To Larry:

Your use of language that demeans members of Greek organizations, your apparent disdain for Greeks, and your refusal to hire Greeks as an employer are all your prerogative. While I don’t agree with you, I respect your opinion—which I’m not so sure is reciprocated based on your sharp and spiteful comments to others. But here are facts: there are thousands upon thousands of outstanding individuals in society who were, and still are, members of Greek organizations. If you, as an employer, choose to discriminate against such members, you may do so with impunity, as you so graciously shared with us. That may result in some Greeks not being hired by you. You will make some people angry (I don’t know if that’s your intent or just a byproduct that you seem to enjoy). But the fact of the matter is you are only hurting yourself and your business. The Greek person is going to find another job; but your company is going to miss out on the opportunity to hire a potentially great employee.

I’m not saying that all Greeks are great or will make great employees…but many of them are. So if someone is so arrogant, ignorant, and foolish to discriminate against people based on such membership, then they will suffer the consequences, just as if I were to refuse to hire someone because they were on the math team.

For my choice: yes, being a member of a fraternity, I will always be associated with the negative side of Greek life that is more commonly seen by the rest of the world. But I also enjoy the great privileges, the lifelong friendships, the personal development, and the overwhelmingly positive aspects of Greek life…and I will defend each young person’s right to choose for themselves if that is an experience they wish to have.

I take a great deal of personal satisfaction from serving, every day, the Greek community and perpetuating the great positives (as well as dealing with the negatives) of membership in Greek organizations. I do so because every day I see or talk to men and women who would not trade their Greek life experience for anything…including a job with your firm.

And finally, to anyone arguing that fraternities and sororities have no place in today’s society:

I respect your opinion, to which you are entitled. I am happy to listen to and consider your arguments supporting that opinion, some of which are quite strong and convincing. I do find it strange that some can speak so knowledgeably about institutions that they have never been a part of, nor (obviously) have a clear understanding of what they are really all about. But to each his or her own.

However, here are the facts: I am a better person because of my fraternity experience; a better leader, a better friend, family member and colleague, a better employee, and a better, stronger, smarter, more tolerant, and more humble man (and I don’t purport that I’m “there” yet by any means, or even a great guy; but I’m better than I used to be). I know many, many people who feel the same. And furthermore, there are literally millions of people over the past two centuries whose lives have been positively and dramatically impacted by their Greek life experiences. So you may argue the negatives all day—write a book about it even, I’ll read it—but the proof is in the proverbial pudding, as they say.

All the best…and good luck in 2008!

Respectfully Submitted, at 5:40 pm EST on January 17, 2008

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