Sept. 19, 2007

The Platonic Ideal of Perfection

Alison Laywine didn’t expect students to react any differently to the syllabus for her Plato course than for any other standard philosophy department offering.

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The course, which at times refers directly to original texts, requires students to gain a familiarity with the Greek alphabet. To make sure that would happen, Laywine tested them on the subject last week — with the requirement that anyone getting less than 100 percent correct would have to drop the class.

To be sure, the exam was given during the add/drop period, no knowledge of Greek was presumed and Laywine spent the first two weeks of class teaching the alphabet. But nervous students evidently spread the word: An article in the McGill University student newspaper this week described declining enrollment and fear in the classroom. “I dropped the class because the syllabus terrified me,” one student told the paper.

The requirement is certainly not the norm in a typical classroom, but Laywine said she has had at least one colleague use the same policy. “I was surprised by the reaction,” she said. “I really think our students overreacted.”

One reason why the response was so unexpected, she suggested, is that learning the Greek alphabet (or at least the capital letters) isn’t all that hard. “It’s something you can learn in a day,” said Daniel P. Tompkins, a professor of classics at Temple University and a member of the Joint Committee on Classics in American Education of the American Classical League and the American Philosophical Association.

Laywine didn’t want to teach the class without being certain her students could interpret parts of the original texts. “[I]f I put a word that’s up for discussion on the blackboard, do you really know what we’re talking about? You’ve got to be able to read the words on the blackboard; that’s a minimal requirement,” she said. “It’s a lot easier to do than to make sense of Plato.”

As an introduction to Plato and the Greek language, Laywine said she hoped that the test would cause some students to take an interest in the subjects — not scare them off: “My rationale is, in part, that I want to confront students with the fact these texts are in Greek. We have to talk about the terms themselves anyway; let’s put them on the board and see what they look like in Greek.”

In requiring a perfect score on the Greek alphabet, and students’ ability to transliterate into English, Laywine said she didn’t want to give the impression that she believes memorization to be the core of a student’s education in the classics. It “didn’t mean that I thought any part of philosophy should be strictly rote learning ... but you do have to be able to remember stuff,” she pointed out, such as the contours of an argument in order to be able to discuss it intelligently.

“My father, when he went to school, had to memorize certain lines of poetry.... [M]y students have never been asked to memorize anything. Is that good or bad?” she asked. “My own view is that the stronger your memory is, the better off you’ll be.”

“So memory’s got to play some role in how we learn, but it’s obviously not the only thing,” Laywine added.

If the role of memorization in the classroom has waned in recent decades, Kenneth Kitchell, a professor of classics at the University of Massachusetts at Amherst, noted that the trend is part of a more complex pattern.

“Rote memorization, when I was coming up the pike, was absolutely part of the mental regimen ... but that’s been argued, since I think Revolutionary War days, whether it’s useful or not; it kind of comes and goes,” said Kitchell, a past president of the American Classical League who has studied the history of Latin education.

Even if memorization — or the specter of being tested to perfection from memory — awakened some students’ fears, that wasn’t necessarily the cause of the drop in enrollment since the beginning of the semester, documented by The McGill Daily as declining from 50 to about 34 at the beginning of the week. Laywine said, however, that the same drop occurred last year, to 33 from 50, without the alphabet quiz. By her count, the number of students currently stands at 32 — just right for a classroom discussion.

— Andy Guess

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Comments

In the words of Plato himself

“But when they came to letters, This, said Theuth, will make the Egyptians wiser and give them better memories; it is a specific both for the memory and for the wit. Thamus replied: O most ingenious Theuth, the parent or inventor of an art is not always the best judge of the utility or inutility of his own inventions to the users of them. And in this instance, you who are the father of letters, from a paternal love of your own children have been led to attribute to them a quality which they cannot have; for this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. ” — Phaedrus

elsie, at 8:00 am EDT on September 19, 2007

Well Done

Great point, Elsie.

MB, at 9:10 am EDT on September 19, 2007

An experiment

I would like to see Mrs. Leywine sit in a Japanese class in which the learning of the alphabet was compulsory to interpret some texts. Even more intimidating, learning the alphabet to perfection (in a short period of time)in order to stay in the course.

José Ricardo, Professor of Foreign Language Education and Spanish at Shippensburg University, at 10:10 am EDT on September 19, 2007

How dare she...?

This is a very challenging requirement! After all, this learning of the Greek alphabet has traditionally been reserved for those elite who pledge fraternities and sororities. How can we expect “normal” students who are likely sober most of the time, to learn such a challenging set of data? Perhaps this course should have a pre-req. of membership in an on campus organization.

Just a thought.

CJProf, at 11:00 am EDT on September 19, 2007

Turn the tables

If only Ms. Laywine could be counted on to correctly interpret Plato’s texts 100% of the time (which she must agree is difficult, given her statement above about the relative ease of learning the Greek alphabet), her requirement of perfection on the test might make sense. This requirement is totally opposed both to Plato’s and Socrates’ approaches to learning. Have some humility, Ms. Laywine.

Yavo, Adventurer, at 11:05 am EDT on September 19, 2007

I find the compulsory memorization of the greek alphabet unnecessary to understanding plato. The ability to read a term in another language is only as valuable as understanding the various meanings and the context.

In addition, unless these students intend on pursuing a degree in Ancient philosophy, it is wasted time on their part. Not to say that the greek language is not an important part of our own language, but the ideas of Plato, particularly when relating them to today’s world, are infinitely more valuable than the ability to read a few words in Greek.

And of course there is also the research that tells you memorization is a form of passive learning and not as effective as actually engaging the students. In fact, she might find that if she included learning the alphabet but then continued to use it in class and challenged the students to use it...they might actually remember in the following semester.

Lauren Payne, at 11:05 am EDT on September 19, 2007

Phaedrus

Hmm! Just wondering, Elsie. Did you cite the quote from memory, or did you pull it from a resource? If you recalled it from memory, I am duly impressed.

Fred Flener, Retired, at 11:20 am EDT on September 19, 2007

learning Greek alphabet

What to say? Obviously, the woman’s goal was to get her class roll down from 50 to 32, which she acknowledges is ‘just right’. IOW, she is a lazy professor who has concocted a mind-numbingly silly ‘requirement’ to shed unwanted students. She should lose her job. Let’s not fudge things, either— there is simply no substantive benefit gained by the student desirous of reading and studying Plato in translation if he simply knows the Greek alphabet. Knowing an alphabet does not teach one a single word of the language, after all, and seems to be nothing other than a waste of time. Do we need to learn Chinese characters in order to study Confucius in translation?

Thomas Roche, Dr., at 11:20 am EDT on September 19, 2007

Isn’t she?

“In fact, she might find that if she included learning the alphabet but then continued to use it in class and challenged the students to use it...they might actually remember in the following semester.” It appears this is exactly what she is doing!A basic understanding of the foundation certainly can not harm a student, and might even help.

CJProf, at 11:20 am EDT on September 19, 2007

Challenging...?!

We are talking about learning (and memorizing) *only* a foreign alphabet here, right? So, seriously, where is the problem? Do we really want our students to get “scared” and drop classes every time things are not shaped as they want? Then, drop class, drop school and welcome in the real world!

Maria, at 11:55 am EDT on September 19, 2007

memorization, what an odious task

Lordy mercy, to memorize anything! The times tables, a ten lines from Shakespeare, &c, it’s now unfashionable in learning. It used to be thought mental discipline (now it’s out of educational fashion). Every Greek pledge memorized that alphabet (that’s out of fashion, too—see yesterdays News and comments) and some of us even had to say it backwards. I taught in an elementary school in which EVERY SECOND GRADE CHILD memorized ALL THE PRESIDENTS, IN ORDER so their various classrooms could win ice cream parties. They all did it, too, and there are more presidents than Greek letters. Well, but of course, the incentive was way different, and think of the peer pressure for all to succeed so all could get the ice cream. This was not in ancient times, it was more like, ummm, 2003.

Marion, at 11:55 am EDT on September 19, 2007

Reply to Fred

I retrieved the story from my memory of my classical rhetoric courses and then went looking for the exact text. I’ve always enjoyed the irony of that particular passage. Socrates is criticizing this new-fangled thing called writing for ruining the ability of the youth to rely on their memories, even as Plato is turning his words into text for the sake of posterity.

elsie, at 12:20 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Geez, what a bunch of whiners. We make pre-calculus stuudents (high school juniors) learn the Greek alphabet because the use of many of the letters is conventional in math and science notation. The first night of Russian 1 for me (32 years ago) in college was to learn the 32-letter Russian alphabet, printed and script — it was mostly fun. If those kids are scared enough to drop out they aren’t really there to learn anything — you never know what’s important to learn until later anyway.

Joe Ppaolilli, at 12:35 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

We are only talking about 24 elements here, assuming she leaves out the accents; and one would hope that most college students are already familiar with at least the letter pi; that leaves 23 at most. Not to mention that 9 more of them closely resemble the Roman alphabet. This is not an onerous requirement.

JakeB, at 1:30 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Memorization

Not an issue. Memorization of facts and the details of basic information has always been the core of any discipline and study. Better get used to it. I cannot think of many jobs out there that don’t require some version of it in order to get on to the bigger things.

Don Inbody, Adjunct Instructor at Concordia University of Texas, at 1:30 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Gracious, students having to memorize something as a requirement for their course. What will they be forced to do next? The exercise requires a little discipline (such a dirty word these days, I know) on the part of the students and will sort out those who are serious about the class and those who think it may be just a “bird” course. I don’t think it’s the professor who is lazy here.

Kevin, at 1:35 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

This test seems useful as an invitation to students to make the commitment required to study Plato and to draw attention to the hermeeneutic distance in our reading of Plato. The fact that transliterated terms can be used on the blackboard makes it unnecessary to use only the Greek script, of course, so learning that script is more a pedagogical device than a requirement for understanding Plato (at least in a first course on Plato). Then, again, who says that the remaining students didn’t stay because they were impressed with how serious the professor was? As a student, I would have looked forward to a challenging and rigorous course at that point!

Angelo, Philosophy Prof. at liberal arts college, at 1:45 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

sheesh

Might I remind the critics that 4 year old children in Greece are capable of memorizing their own alphabet.

If this is supposed to be too fiendishly difficult for American undergrads they might as well hang it up and go work in a McDonald’s?

andy.s, at 2:55 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Academic Standards?

Wow — reading these comments reveals a surprising number of numbnuts! If a professor can’t require something to be mastered in their course, then what in the world are we doing in higher ed? Several of you have opinions about the value of the exercise...get over it. It’s not your course. There is NOTHING inappropriate about requiring students to learn something to a particular standard, and requiring 100% as a standard seems to bring some significance back into the classroom endeavor....bunch of wimps!

Brad, at 2:55 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Kudo’s

To Dr. Laywine for going above and beyond to teach her students, even if it is “small thing".

College faculty are constantly derided for not doing “more” to teach students, so this prof does and we still bitch, moan and complain.

The approach is classical in and of itself, and yet innovative as far as students today are concerned since memorization has not been emphasized in some time in much of current, modern curriculum.

Sometimes memorization is necessary to intelligently discuss a subject.

Ironically, the assumption is that her students have mastered english vocabulary, and I am not so sure that I would hang my hat on that. I had a philosophy professor who made us bring both a dictionary, and a encyclopedia of philosophy with us to each and every class he taught.

One can only discuss difficult concepts and make arguments using the tools at hand. Language is that tool. While college should be supportive and engaging, it is not a hot house. Those students who dropped exercised their freedom of choice and probably made the correct decision.

Bob, at 2:55 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

I’d love to see those students try and take an acting class. If they panic and cry trying to remember 20 some odd letters I’d love to see them get told they need to memorize and recite several pages of text.

Unistrut, Director of Theatre Facilities at Cal Poly Pomona, at 2:55 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

I’m surprised that a simple memorization requirement is viewed by some as “controversial", or even “unfair". The instructor gave them plenty of time to do it, and she included the requirement in the syllabus, so what’t the big deal?

Some people suffer from a kind of “symbol shock” which might make the assignment diffictult. However, anyone else who isn’t a dimwit should have had no difficulty and should not complain.

Did they think that studying Plato was just going to be an “easy A"? If so, they should have signed up for bowling instead.

Richard, at 2:55 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Kudos

Sorry to seem petty, Bob, but even if kudos was a plural word, the apostrophe wouldn’t be correct. And it isn’t; kudos — meaning praise — is singular. Doesn’t anybody here know Greek?

Lee Rickard, at 5:00 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

The fact that she wanted people to memorize something is not the issue here: rote memorization of an alphabet is not too difficult (my dad taught me to memorize the Greek one when I was 4 years old, while he dried my hair, just out of the tub). It is that she made that memorization the condition of any further study. There is no sense at all in thinking that a student who misses a letter or two on an alphabet test—even the best of us misstep from time to time—cannot do well in the study of Plato’s thought. That is, unless one assumes that study is private and we cannot rely on the scholarship of others who have already done some of the work of translation and interpretation, so that we must reinvent the wheel every time we open a text originally written in another language.

Yavo, Adventurer, at 6:00 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

needed for the course

It is standard practice in published papers in ancient Greek philosophy to leave all Greek words in the original Greek. Since Prof. Laywine’s course is a 300-level class intended only for majors who presumably will be expected to do a research paper for the class, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect them to know the Greek alphabet. By the end of their sophomore year most undergraduate philosophy majors will know the meaning of Greek terms such as Logos, Eidos, Psyche, Phronesis, Episteme, and so on, but won’t know them when they see them in the secondary literature unless they can recognize the Greek letters. So at the level of the class, knowing Greek isn’t a must, but knowing the letters is. And memorizing them is not difficult.

On a side note, Elsie’s quotation is a view Socrates ascribes to Egyptian priests (that writing a speech down will lead us to simply memorize the words and ignore the meaning), it’s not presented as Socrates’s view, and even if it were, Socrates’s views are not automatically Plato’s views. The quotation in context is irrelevant to the matter of Prof. Laywine’s assignment and her students’ reactions.

David Vessey, at 6:35 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Yavo — I think you’re missing the point...

I agree that all of us can make a misstep now and then. But I don’t perceive the requirement to get 100% on a quiz means that’s the only way to learn...rather it sets a STANDARD of excellence for the pursuit of learning. Our society admires the coach who requires perfection in sports practices. But we castigate the instructor who has the audacity to think their course material is as important as athletic skill?

Brad, at 6:35 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Once in a museum at Berlin, I noticed an old woman trying to understand the reading of a name in a statue, both in latin and greek characters. I helped her by pointing to each greek letter and telling, slow and carefully, which one was the corresponding latin. She thanked me, and then called to her granddaughter to repeat her the explanation... speaking perfect greek between both.

Alejandro Rivero, at 7:15 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

I’m Not Going There!

Not too long ago, I taught business school courses in applied statistics and management science at a university in the Lower Shenandoah Valley. As you know, the creme de la creme gravitate to BBA and MBA programs, so, just to get a sense of our starting point, I gave a short math test on the first day of class. The problems were very close to trivial for a decent high school freshman ... (a) draw the graph of 2x + y = 6 (and I gave them the scales), (b) find the intersection of A = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5} and B = {1, 3, 5, 7}, (3) which of the following graphs are pictures of functions, etc. The most difficult problem was graphing two linear equations and guessing what the simultaneous solution was.

The first time I gave the test, the average score was very close to 4 correct out of 14 questions asked. I realized it was a waste of time to give the test, but I couldn’t help myself. I taught at that “university” for five years, and eventually gave roughly the same test to almost 300 students. In truth, there was no reason for a high school freshman (at the end of hir first year) to make less than a perfect score on the test, but in the final analysis, the mean score was less than 5.

So you see why I didn’t take a page from Alison Laywine’s book. I would never have had any students in that class.

Frizbane Manley, at 9:20 pm EDT on September 19, 2007

Missing the point

Dr. Laywine has come up with a very interesting tool and a pedagogically unsound way of applying it. Requiring students to learn the alphabet so that they can read Greek terms is a solid, practical idea — many earlier writers don’t transliterate the Greek terms they use so students will be able to read more than just Plato when they are done. Requiring students to get 100% before the drop add period is over places their entire philosophical education for the quarter on the head of a pin. Every good teacher knows that 1)memorization is not a taught skill anymore and so we have to teach our students how to do it, 2) very young children memorize far more easily than adults, 3) students who fail early in a course sometimes make the most dramatic leaps forward later. Most importantly, her test is not an appropriate gateway for the class — i.e. it doesn’t really test whether or not the student is ready to proceed in her class. She is essentially administering a placement test which assesses the student on a different skill than the ones they most need for the class. She is also weeding out certain types of learning styles, intentionally or not. This is also pedagogically unsound, though awfully tempting because students who match our own styles of learning often appear the smartest to us and are the easiest for us to teach. So, let’s give Prof. Laywine an A for innovation and a C for execution.

Sarah, Dr. at Azusa Pacific University, at 4:20 am EDT on September 20, 2007

greek

For anyone who’s interested, here’s a similar example. I teach a course on Greek political philosophy. The students read a bit of Herodotus,Thucydides, Aristophanes and Xenophon and a fair bit of Plato and Aristotle. They have to write a major paper drawing on appropriate secondary sources. Since the secondary literature often uses Greek terms in the original Greek, I thought it would be helpful for the students to learn the alphabet and to know where to find a Greek dictionary.

I simply took five minutes from the beginning of my first three classes to go over the alphabet. The students already recognized (or quickly understood) 75% of the letters anyway. In the fourth class I gave them a short quiz,just to see how they were doing (no marks assigned). Most of them had pretty much nailed it.

I now occasionally put Greek terms on the board (in Greek) and they have no problem with them.

My impression is that most students found the exercise either quirky, mildly interesting or even fun. I haven’t come across anyone who found it difficult or frightening.

Like anything else in teaching, it’s not simply a matter of what you do, but how you do it.

rick, at 7:20 am EDT on September 20, 2007

my apologies for the apostrophe...

but, you are incorrect about the plural:

ku �do /ˈkudo �, ˈkyu-/ Pronunciation Key — Show Spelled Pronunciation[koo-doh, kyoo-] Pronunciation Key — Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -dos for 2. 1. honor; glory; acclaim: No greater kudo could have been bestowed. 2. a statement of praise or approval; accolade; compliment: one kudo after another.

————————————————————————————————————————

[Origin: 1925–30; back formation from kudos, construed as a plural]

—Usage note See kudos1. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, � Random House, Inc. 2006. American Heritage Dictionary — Cite This Source ku �do (kōō’dō’, kyōō’-) Pronunciation Key n. pl. ku �dos (-dōz’) Usage Problem A praising remark; an accolade or compliment: “Children’s book author Virginia Hamilton added another kudo to her prize-laden career” (Calvin Reid). See Usage Note at kudos.

Lee Rickard, at 8:25 am EDT on September 20, 2007

Apologies, it has been a tough morning

The last post regarding apologies for the apostrophe WAS NOT BY LEE RICKARD, but by me. Sorry! Bob

Bob, at 12:00 pm EDT on September 20, 2007

Come on!

Are all of you dissenters complete idiots? I am in tenth grade and I am taking the equivalent of 3rd year college Greek. Last year, my first assignment was to learn the Greek alphabet (a word that comes from Greek in fact). This was a task that required no class time at all and no explanation. Tonight I am going to translate 20 lines of Book 9 of the Odyssey for my Greek class. To truly understand Plutonic dialogues, one must have a rudimentary understanding of the Greek language. Ever notice ho different translations of The Ion are very different? This is because each word in Greek has many possible meanings. To be quite honest, the idiots who say that Greek is reserved for frats pledging are complete numbskulls. The professor sets the bar and if you want to read and interpret the finest philosophical texts, meet the bar. It’s as easy as alpha, beta, gamma.

Ian, at 8:10 pm EDT on September 20, 2007

This is a problem? What next? Will students actually have to learn facts?

One study shows students know more entering college than when they leave:http://libertyandculture.blogspot.com/2007/09/knowledge-isnt-point.html

Jason, at 9:45 am EDT on September 21, 2007

Learning styles

I thought Dr. Sarah’s point about weeding out potential learning styles was an interesting one, as well as a good one. However, isn’t part of the goal of higher education to allow students to experiment with different learning styles? There is an inarguable place for memorization in learning language.

In my undergraduate years, I was a Japanese major. I took a class in which I had to memorize 1000 kanji (Chinese characters) in one semester. Was it difficult? Absolutely. Was it too much? Probably. But let me tell you—I learned so much just from the struggle! My mnemonic device skills are excellent! I can now transfer many of those same skills to the Arabic class that I’m taking now. While memorization should be used within its limits, it is still a valid way of teaching in many subjects. It’s certainly helping me as I type these comments. How else would I remember that the world “type” is spelled with a y? Somewhere along the way, I memorized it.

Requiring students to learn 24 letters should not be too burdensome, especially considering the fact that many students see these letters on fraternity houses and sorority t-shirts every day. It may take some students longer than others—sure—but if a student truly values the class and the experince, he or she will take the time to memorize. It might be good, however, for the professor to allow at least one make-up to allow for those students who are truly interested but maybe missed one or two answers due to test-taking anxiety.

Lisa, ESL Instructor at University of Akron, at 2:45 pm EDT on September 21, 2007

From someone who was there...=)

What a fine time for me to stumble across this board and make a post.

I’m currently enrolled in PHIL 354 with Professor Laywine. The exact class this article is speaking of. In fact, my final examination is in...hm...40 minutes. Thus, I shall try to be brief for my own sake.

I learned the Greek Alphabet in less than 2 hours. Given that we had a good week and half to prepare, that roughly amounts to 10 minutes a day. Need I say more?

As a student, I cannot — for the life me — relate to any of the complaints launched upon Prof. Laywine. The Intro to Molecular Biology examination yesterday required me to memorize 500 pages of material, 250 concepts, and 200 acronyms, definitions and diagrams. Thus, the memorizing of 20 or so odd letters doesn’t strike me to be that outlandish.

Seriously, what is wrong with you people?

The education system is — in principle — meant to support, inspire, teach, and drive students; this has been said in previous posts. However, I would hardly call anyone who complains about memorizing an alphabet a student. Surely, I would hate to think of myself defined as a student merely because I pay my course fees. Similarly, I cannot see the justice in defining another person my peer simply in virtue of their ‘enrollment’.

This course has been one of the most rewarding courses I’ve taken during my study at McGill thus far. My exam is in 30 minutes and it would quite unstudious of me to not study more. Be sure, however, that I will be back to defend, in more detail, the integrity of the course from the perspective of a student who has taken it.

P.S. There was a Greek re-test opportunity for those that did poorly. So suck it up people.

Johnson F., McGill, at 1:55 pm EST on December 13, 2007

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