Search News


Browse Archives

News

Why Women Leave Academic Medicine

September 21, 2007

Share This Story

FREE Daily News Alerts

Advertisement

Phoebe S. Leboy was, she acknowledges, one of the lucky ones. It's not that things were easy for female scientists when she came of age as an academic in the 1960s and 1970s; women earned a small fraction of the Ph.D.'s in biology and chemistry at the time, and they were an even rarer presence on medical or dental school faculties (Leboy was the first woman promoted to a tenured faculty position at Penn's dental school).

Things may well be tougher for female basic scientists now, though, Leboy told a gathering of researchers and others Wednesday at a Washington area meeting of the Association for Women in Science, of which she is the president-elect. The picture is better in some key ways: In stark contrast to the physical sciences, where women remain severely underrepresented in degree programs and as doctoral candidates, women have largely gained parity in the early parts of the biological sciences pipeline. They earn nearly half of all Ph.D.'s awarded in fields such as cell and molecular biology, and they are getting jobs as postdocs and as entry-level non-clinical professors at respectable if not nearly equitable rates.

But the positives fade at later points in the process, where women are increasingly leaving academe in droves, Leboy said at the gathering of the association's Bethesda chapter, held at the National Institutes of Health's National Library of Medicine. "You've got postdocs who don't end up in tenure track positions, tenure track professors who don't get tenure, and tenured professors who don't end up to be department chairs, deans, and the like.

"It's not that they don't come into the field," she said. "It's that they're dropping out because the pipeline gets so clogged with crud that you can't get through it if you're a woman."

Is "crud" just another term for the sex discrimination that Larry Summers got into trouble for saying didn't exist for female professors? No, Leboy said. While overt bias does exist, she said, she seemed to lay the later-stage leaks in the academic biomedicine pipeline much more at the feet other sorts of obstacles, most notably a raising of the expectations bar that affects both genders but hurts women disproportionately.

Like any good scientist, she started with the data to reveal the perceived problem. Citing statistics she had collected on the composition of faculties at 24 medical schools in 2006, she found that in fields such as cell biology, biochemistry and and neuroscience, the proportion of female assistant professors lagged the Ph.D. pool in the disciplines from a decade earlier by anywhere from 10 to 15 percentage points.

Focusing on seven of the most elite medical schools -- those at Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Penn, Stanford, the University of Washington, Washington University in St. Louis, and Yale -- she found that "they are not doing a whole lot of hiring of junior [female] faculty at all," and those that they are hiring aren't staying. Five of the seven biochemistry departments, and four of the six cell biology programs, at those schools have no junior women, Leboy's study found. At Penn's own medical school, the number of female assistant professors in the basic sciences had dropped from 14 a decade ago to four now (representing a net loss in women, since the number of tenured female professors had risen to 23 from 18).

Why are women appearing to drop out of the pipeline early in their medical school faculty careers? Leboy attributed the problem largely to a set of obstacles that make the life "unattractive." She ascribed some of it to the traditional explanation of family-unfriendly policies such as tenure clocks that coincide with child-bearing years, a culture of early and late meetings that are difficult for parents to make, and leave policies that are improving but still insufficient.

But perhaps more interestingly, Leboy explained how the rising "expectations and criteria for success" for non-clinical researchers in the biomedical science are having a disproportionate effect on women.

The average male researcher, according to NIH data Leboy cited, has 1.4 basic research project grants, compared to slightly less than 1.3 for women. While men and women earn new NIH grants at roughly the same rate, women get "consistently fewer" competing renewals grants than men do. And for every dollar a male primary investigator receives, women get 80 cents.

Female researchers earn 42 percent of the NIH's lower-level "career development" awards, which is about the rate one would expect given the rate at which they earn doctorates. But they get 25 percent of regular research grants and less than 20 percent of the bigger "center" and small business innovation research grants that the NIH is increasingly emphasizing. And only 17 percent of NIH-funded research centers at medical schools have women as their primary investigator, Leboy's research shows.

Most of the other criteria used in assessing performance -- number of publications, numbers of collaborators and of graduate students and postdocs, invitations to speak and to present at national and international conferences -- are tied in one way or another to the grant levels, said Leboy, who noted that she earned tenure with seven publications. As the bar for all of them keeps rising -- Leboy recounted one female assistant professor being told by her department chairman, 'You know, quality is no substitute for quantity,' drawing a pained chuckle from the audience -- "women are very sensibly avoiding tenure track positions in academic health centers," she said. "If they get there, they are abandoning them, either because they're told they can't succeed, or they perceive that they can't succeed."

Leboy said she had been unable to do enough solid research to conclude whether women are leaving the scientific enterprise altogether, or just ditching academe. One "sloppy" experiment she did suggested the latter: a look at the speakers invited to the major cell biology and neuroscience scholarly meetings found that women were appearing at roughly the rate in which one would expect based on their representation in the field, even as other numbers suggest that they have already dropped off of medical school faculties. "That suggests they're still in research, out there working and publishing." Exactly where isn't clear, although industry, research positions at academic institutions, and the NIH are possibilities.

Those are perfectly acceptable places for female scientists to work, Leboy said. But ensuring that women work in academic medicine is crucial, she said, because it "really impacts the next generation" of potential biologists and faculty members, who are likelier to stay in the field if they see role models in their classrooms."

"That's one reason why it's important to focus excessively on keeping women in academia," she said.

See all postings »
Advertisement
Advertisement

Matching Jobs

Comments on Why Women Leave Academic Medicine

  • Need study data?
  • Posted by H.F. Cheng , Independent Scholar at HealthCareMoney.info on September 21, 2007 at 6:40am EDT
  • Another engaging IHE item. I just tried to "google" the study. Is it on the Internet? Having paid for a female MD's education, I've got a minor interest in academic medicine, including how the MDs and PhDs on the faculties work together.

  • Standard(s) of Excellence
  • Posted by Kelly Knight on September 21, 2007 at 10:10am EDT
  • Once again, academe is expected to carry two sets of books, one for males, and a lessor one for females. We expect excellence in medicine, but we expect different levels of excellence between men and women. Women can't compete at the same level men do- can't make it to meetings, leave during child-bearing, etc. So what are we to do, lower the bar?

    The fact is that the deck is not stacked against women. But Leboy seems to think that women should be able to sit at the same blackjack table as men, but be allowed to play with their own deck fitted with only ace's.

  • Posted by Phoebe Leboy on September 21, 2007 at 11:00am EDT
  • Perhaps Kelly might be willing to consider whether her/his criteria for "excellence" has anything to do with merit or talent?

  • Why must men subsidize women's choices?
  • Posted by Jeff on September 21, 2007 at 11:25am EDT
  • Lederman reported, "[Leboy] ascribed some of [the problems] to the traditional explanation of family-unfriendly policies such as tenure clocks that coincide with child-bearing years, a culture of early and late meetings that are difficult for parents to make, and leave policies that are improving but still insufficient."

    Again we see cargo cult science at work. Where's the data in support of Leboy's attribution of cause? Why didn't Lederman ask her about it? Probably because her explanation fits with the academic establishment's neo-Marxist narrative of 'patriarchy.'

    The assertion in itself is quite absurd. Leboy really expects us to alter the course of medical research to accommodate a woman's CHOICE to have children. A woman’s reproductive CHOICE trumps the requirements of long-established scientific practice? And who gets to pay for this choice? Men.

    Women need to get comfortable in a world without the snuggly protection of a man. To stand on their own and to gain respect, women must grasp fundamental economic facts: scarcity and opportunity costs.

    Our society insulates women from scarcity. Time is a scarce resource. Spending time on one task necessarily means we are not spending it on another. Time spent on medical research necessarily mean it isn't spent with the family. Women want a logical impossibility, and they want men to subsidize it.

    It's time we tell women, "No!" Women are just as smart and capable as men. It’s time men treat them that way. Men should cease gratifying the impossible: women’s simultaneous desire for equality and special treatment.

    You go girl --- on your own two feet for a change.

  • Thought You’d Like To Know
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on September 21, 2007 at 12:00pm EDT
  • I wrote to Professor Leboy to ask about the “study.”

    1. She told me it would soon be posted on the Association for Women in Science web-site ...

    http://www.awis.org/

    2. She forewarned me that the study is more a description of the prevailing situation and various hypotheses about contributing factors. It is not a rigorous analysis focusing on which are the statistically significant components. She has considered many factors, each one capable of making a minor contribution to the problem, and without attempting to prove any particular set constitutes the “cause.”

    As for Kelly Knight ... baloney!

    Professor Leboy has data that reveal something. What that “something” is is an open question ... and strictly from a resource allocation perspective that “something” must be interesting ... even important.

    It almost goes without saying that virtually all academic cultures in this country are what they are. And, with very few exceptions, they evolved to be what they are today by virtue of the extent to which they were designed, revised, and maintained to meet the needs and expectations of men. So, the hell with women! If they want to function effectively in those cultures let them be like men (do you hear Rex Harrison singing in the background?).

    Oh, wait! ... maybe there's another option. Maybe it is quite possible to revise (reform ... re-form) those cultures so they are much more receptive to the participation of women. And – and I’m quite certain KK has never considered this possibility – maybe those re-formations can be carried out in a manner that, while greatly enhancing the participation of women, also improves the participation of men.

    The idea that these academic cultures are (1) carved in stone and (2) intellectually, academically, practically, or societally optimal is the kind of pap that sustains the nineteenth-century thinking of the likes of Kelly Knight.

    I will go further. Everyone – and I do mean EVERYONE – knows that, given virtually any reasonable set of objective functions and constraints, the dominant academic cultures for research and teaching in the U.S. today are very far from optimal. So let’s think about changing them in accordance with optimality objectives and in a manner that embraces the participation of both men and women.

  • Posted by Mr. W x on September 21, 2007 at 12:40pm EDT
  • I tend to agree with Frizbane Manley. As a male graduate student who is "family oriented," I find the lifestyle imposed by academia to be inimical toward home life (this might also be applicable to anything considered a "real" career these days).

    I would be willing to venture that it's not only women who remove themselves from the track because of the ridiculous state of the academy.

    Then again, that probably works to everyone's advantage anyway, since those who can't measure up don't belong there in the first place, right? And there sure aren't enough tenure track jobs to accommodate all the newly minted PhDs anyway, so it's a win-win for the old boys club.

  • What a Joke - again
  • Posted by ACF on September 21, 2007 at 12:50pm EDT
  • Here we have yet another whiner, complaining that women can't compete based on merit. When asked for the reason, the response is well, men get more grants, men get bigger grants, men write more papers, men get more citations, and therefore women can't compete.

    Well? What is the solution to this "problem?" What is the "problem?" Is the "problem" that fewer discoveries are being made? After all, that is the goal of government funding. Would there be more discoveries if women with inferior merit-based records were funded beyond what their merit would require? (If those in society believe that the purpose of government funding is to produce a particular demographic distribution of researchers, then I suggest those people send in donations to those who can't compete based on merit.)

    Writing successful grant appications, writing papers, making discoveries, etc. require hard work. They require working nights and weekends. If women want to compete, they need to step up to the plate. If they are busy raising children instead, then they need to tell their husbands to pick up the slack in raising the children, or much better yet, marry a house-husband. Or, simply don't have children. While women have all these wonderful choices (that men do not have), they cannot expect that they can simultaneously choose ALL choices. Doing so can only work if others in society pick up the slack and essentially work for the primary benefit of the women (a.k.a. slaves).

  • Manley is wrong.
  • Posted by Jeff on September 21, 2007 at 2:40pm EDT
  • And so is Mr. Wx.

    Manley wrote, "Professor Leboy has data that reveal something. What that “something” is is an open question ... and strictly from a resource allocation perspective that “something” must be interesting ... even important."

    It's not clear at all that Leboy's data reveal anything. Only properly constructed experiments reveal things. We have no reason to believe Leboys' experiments are properly constructed. Statistical disparities are insufficient evidence for a claim that “you can’t get through it if you’re a woman.” Women CHOOSE to have children. The usual approach of “social scientists” is to ignore the primary fact of human action: choice.

    In the broader job markets, women on average take five years off when they CHOOSE to have children. Women who make different CHOICES don’t seem to “suffer” statistical disparities. Indeed, women who CHOOSE not to have children, or CHOOSE to keep working, earn MORE than men in every major city in America. We have every reason to believe the same pattern of higher achievement obtains in medical research. So, I look forward to a good study. If the broader job markets are a harbinger, Manley will be shown to be wrong.

    Manley wrote, “maybe there’s another option. Maybe it is quite possible to revise (reform ... re-form) those cultures so they are much more receptive to the participation of women. ..[ad hominem redacted]… – maybe those re-formations can be carried out in a manner that, while greatly enhancing the participation of women, also improves the participation of men.”

    Actually, that’s wrong on two counts. First, it’s not internally consistent. Manley contradicts himself. If it’s true that “[medical research culture was] designed, revised, and maintained to meet the needs and expectations of men,” then it’s optimized for men. Altering it to the benefit of women would in all probability make things worse for men. Second, it’s not clear that the culture isn’t receptive to women. If MrWx is to be believed, then the culture is also hard on men who want a family life. Then the criteria are not gender-related. Medical research is unfriendly to people who want to spend lots of time with their families --- men or women. Then men have had to deal with this same issue for centuries. It becomes obvious once again: women want special treatment, and they want it subsidized by the efforts of men.

    Manley wrote, “The idea that these academic cultures are (1) carved in stone and (2) intellectually, academically, practically, or societally optimal is..pap…[ad hominem deleted].”

    Actually it isn’t. Manley commits the usual social science/cargo cult science error, a false belief that the high priesthood of social scientists is more fit to determine optimality than the individual practitioners themselves. It’s a grievous mistake of central planners. These social arrangements arose because they have been largely successful. Meddling usually messes things up. Let’s take an elementary example. Sure, you make medical research “more family friendly.” Still, time scarce. Those who prioritize research will be more productive and will advance farther. Altering the culture can’t alter the iron law of scarcity. It is irrational to make pronouncements about optimality without understanding the research culture as a tradition of successful answers.

  • Same old story
  • Posted by Caroline Grant on September 21, 2007 at 2:40pm EDT
  • I'm shocked that there continues to be any debate about whether family friendly policies discriminate against men, coddle women, etc. They make the academy a richer and more humane environment for all people. Period.

  • Posted by Lori Alvord on September 21, 2007 at 4:55pm EDT
  • I agree with Caroline. Two other points: living a lifestyle that academic research requires actually contradicts the current research on healthy lifestyles, i.e. long work hours, sleep deprivation, lack of time spent with family, etc., all combined to produce high levels of stress that is a risk factor for many illnesses. When will science start to listen to its own findings? Second point, it is interesting that the men on this blog consider having children to be 'optional'- a 'choice.' Well perhaps it is, but it takes women in society to produce...men. In other words, some woman sacrificed her time, body, and dedication to bring them into the world. Maybe they made the wrong choice. Or should all women in academia not have children, and we can hope that nonacademic woman can produce enough men, and women, that will choose academics as a career. Women in academics should have the right to have families, like everyone else.

  • Posted by Jan Patterson on September 21, 2007 at 11:55pm EDT
  • I also agree with Caroline. And, I find it interesting that those making negative comments about the worthwhile effort of adapting the workplace for women are using only their first names or initials. There is no question that the academic environment has not adjusted to the flexibility that would allow many more women to contribute. I also agree with the man who commented that some men are contributing more at home and thus would thrive in a more flexible environment as well.
    For those who believe it should be done only the way it is now--with no flexibility for a woman (or a man) to work part time during peak child-bearing years and them return to fulltime in a later phase of their life, it is the field of academics that is missing out. Women contribute much in the way of successful leadership traits that come naturally to them. While these are not gender-specific, women are socialized for team-building, relationship building, collaborative and interactive leadership. It is our field that is missing out if we don't change the system to be more flexible.
    I went through to full professorship with tenure the traditional way, but I believe that the system, not women, should change and accomodate to allow this diversity and thus provide more opportunity to promote women leaders in academics

  • gender equity at least!
  • Posted by Female Professor on September 21, 2007 at 11:55pm EDT
  • I agree that having a family-friendly husband is necessary for women to make it in this highly competitive world. But I had one, and by working hard while I had my family I brought in over 80% of my own salary in NIH grants for 20 years, taught the same hours, and published more than male faculty in my own department. But when I plotted grant dollars vs salary for all of the full professors in the dept over the last ten years, guess what. I consistently made less- some years as much as 25% less. And this is the story for women all around the country- there are many studies to support this finding. It does occur, and it isn't right.

  • Posted by BB on September 21, 2007 at 11:55pm EDT
  • As a woman, I WISH a man had a choice to have a child too - it would make my life much easier. We DON'T have the choice to be the designated childbearers, despite the fact that men often want children as much as women. By having children, we support men as well. If we are to survive as a species, someone has to bear the biological (including hormonal) responsibilities for having children, which changes us. Yes, the research culture has undoubtedly been built around men, who yes, have had to sacrifice their family lives for this, as Mr. Wx rightly pointed out, to the detriment of their children, & physical & mental health, as Lori & Caroline suggested. Is it only these types of personalities that would make good contributions, or would others also contribute valuable, perhaps more balanced & less vitriolic, ideas if academia were more family-friendly to retain people (men & women both) in its midst? Yes, resources are scarce, but why do we need to sacrifice anyone's families, health & well-being for this purpose?

  • What's most surprising is . . .
  • Posted by Rod on September 21, 2007 at 11:55pm EDT
  • the vitriol of some of the apparently male writers who suggest that women become men if they want to succeed in a man's world. My goodness, in what century are these writers living? Would they prefer to roll back the advances made by minorities who have had to have systems changed in order to get a fair shake? Let's face facts, if any system systematically deprives any segment of the system from success, regardless of talents, it is the system that needs changing, not those who are deprived full access, rights, or privileges. Or, are some still of a mind that only one way exists to succeed in this world? It sounds to me like some in this conversation would prefer to maintain their dominance at the expense of others. My, isn't that a principled and powerful way to succeed!

  • Lori tilts at windmills.
  • Posted by Jeff on September 22, 2007 at 12:00am EDT
  • Lori wrote, "living a lifestyle that academic research requires actually contradicts the current research on healthy lifestyles."

    True. Of course, almost every other profession has the same characteristics. For many professions it's unavoidable. Do you think research can be done without stringent deadlines? No? Then deal with it like everyone else. There are plenty of placid, easy jobs but they aren't in research. Get over it like us guys do.

    Lori wrote, "it takes women in society to produce...men. In other words, some woman sacrificed her time, body, and dedication to bring them into the world. Maybe they made the wrong choice. Or should all women in academia not have children"

    Sure, women in medical research can and do have children. Who's saying they shouldn't? Certainly not I. You invent a straw man. Pardon the pun.

    Here's what I am saying. When a woman has children and takes time out from work because of it, she cannot reasonably expect that to have no affect on her research career. It seems many women (and some few men) have such expectations, and they are utterly irrational and impossible to satisfy. The fact of economic scarcity cannot be overcome. The economic fact of opportunity costs cannot be overcome. Even when it's a woman!

    Lori wrote, "Women in academics should have the right to have families, like everyone else."

    Again you tilt at windmills. No one is questioning the right of a woman to have a family.

    By all means have a family. But don't lower research standards nor the pace of research nor the advancement of men in research --- just to accommodate your personal reproductive CHOICES.

  • Omigod ... I Can’t Believe I Was That Careless
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on September 22, 2007 at 12:00am EDT
  • I thank Jeff for looking at my responses more carefully than I looked at them. How embarrassing.

    On the other hand, I am not prepared to back off.

    First, if “only properly constructed experiments reveal things” we are in big trouble ... and I will be generous and pretend he said “properly constructed and conducted.” Just by way of example, the response rates – and subsequent non-randomness – of responses to most surveys would (according to Jeff) render a huge proportion of social “science” and market research useless. Add to that the U.S. census which, because critical subsets are invariably omitted, makes (again according to Jeff) most government data-based planning at least “unscientific.” Thank God for data mining which often doesn’t give a hoot about “properly conducted experiments. Thank God for the late John Tukey (the father of exploratory data analysis) who said, “Listen to the data no matter how softly it whispers to you.”

    I would be remiss if I did not mention that the vast, vast majority of decision-making – and most economists would give it their hearty stamp of approval and classify it as “rational” (i.e., in the individual’s self-interest) – is by the billions of individuals in this world who almost never gather data in accordance with Jeff’s “properly conducted experiments.”

    Again, Jeff’s criticism of Manley’s silly comment about re-forming the culture in accordance with (1) some sort of objective optimization principles and (2) in a manner that enhances both male and female participation could not possibly alter the status quo because, according to Manley, it has already been optimized vis-a-vis the participation of men and, thus, could not be improved for them. An unfortunately unmentioned point critical to Manley’s argument is that this sort of optimization is time dependent. Today’s academic cultures are a consequence of many, many decisions made during at least the past 150 years, so Manley believes many of those decisions were made at times when the role of women (and men) in society was vastly different than it is today. Thus – according to Manley – “optimization” in accordance with a male perspective is heavily weighted toward societal views of men and women prior to 1950. As is suggested in the post by Mr. W x, what is best for the Man of La Mancha is not best for the Man of All Seasons is not best for Mr. W x. After all, women were not even thought to be capable of casting an intelligent vote for the leaders of this country until the 19th amendment was passed and ratified in 1920 ... and isn’t that a frightening thought. So, it is not at all clear that “decisions and actions that are in the best interest of men today” are consistent with the decisions and actions that were in the best interest of men in yesteryear.

    I prefer not to make a big issue of this, but in his earlier post Manley tried to address the male/female dichotomy as one that exists but could be attenuated by rational action. Jeff, on the other hand believes ... well, I’ll let him speak for himself ...

    * “women on average take five years off when they CHOOSE to have children”

    * “women who CHOOSE not to have children, or CHOOSE to keep working, earn MORE than men in every major city in America”

    * “It becomes obvious once again: women want special treatment, and they want it subsidized by the efforts of men”

    Two of Jeff’s comments really annoy Manley ...

    First, his statement “Manley commits the usual social science/cargo cult science error, a false belief that the high priesthood of social scientists is more fit to determine optimality than the individual practitioners themselves” (and I’m wondering if his is an ad hominem fallacy) is insulting because, when Manley writes “social ‘science,’” as you can see he usually puts the second word in quotation marks.

    Second, Manley was completely thrown of track by Jeff’s obsession with ad hominemisms ... both deleted and retracted ... and, no doubt, nonexistent as well. Whew!

  • Good thinking Jeff
  • Posted by TS Woman on September 22, 2007 at 12:05am EDT
  • Yeah, Jeff, you go boy!

    You're right, those silly women, taking time off for child rearing! Silly, silly choices. They should find some house husband so as soon as the baby pops out of the womb, he can do the nursing... and the diapers.... and the all-night care. Oh, wait, men can't nurse (at least not without lots of female hormones... which might, um, kind of cause problems with their manhood). Oh, so really, academics shouldn't have families. Or, if they do, it should be male academics who have a female spouse to stay home and take care of the kids. Nope, women who want to do science, they can't do it if they want to have kids. Sorry, bzzt.

    Oh yeah, and fixing this problem, definitely a loser for men. I mean, come on, trying to make sure that academics work reasonable hours from time to time, get real! Men don't want to work reasonable hours, they don't want to see their kids, they just want to work all night every night! (um, yeah, the two national academy members I know actually have lives, Jeff - good science does NOT come only from working long hours).

    And trying to make sure that equal pay is given for equal work? ptht. Ridiculous. Women are obviously not working as hard, so deserve less pay, right?

    So, then, Jeff, explain why transsexuals who go from female to male roles in science say that things suddenly get easier as a man? That they start getting invited to give more talks? Or, in my own experience going from male to female, I suddenly stop getting invited? Must be because I'm a slacker now (oops, no, I've published more in the past year than in the previous 4 combined). Oh yes, and while we're being ignorant, let's make sure we neglect the studies showing that the same manuscript having a women's name on it gets rejected at a substantially higher rate than with men's names.

    No, no bias here to correct at all. Just those pesky, whiny women wanting fair treatment, opportunities to succeed while having a family, and a diverse workplace.

    Yep, the world, and academia, would be a lot better off being completely run by white men. Look at how well they've done with running the country lately!

    M

    ps Jeff, before you respond with the "CHOICE" thing again, reflect on your own parents. Who took care of YOU when you were young? If it was your father, you are in a tiny, tiny minority.

  • Posted by reluctant_loudmouth on September 22, 2007 at 2:05pm EDT
  • This discussion became silly. People are talking past each other because their basic premises are different.

    It seems that Jeff & Co. believe that the sole purpose of all research institutions is to produce scientifically solid answers to pressing questions (as prioritized by the funding bodies, presumably reflecting the priorities of the humankind). In that framework the Academe should be structured to reward those who produce better answers and at a higher rate (no matter what the cost to their personal life and lives of their families) and any proposed reforms should be evaluated by one and only one criterion: would they increase the rate of scientific discoveries? Reforms with the opposite effect are not to be promoted & the personal choices not adhering to that ultimate goal are to be recognized and respected, but not rewarded or subsidized.

    His critics seem to recognize Academe as a part of the larger society and feel that an infinitesimal slowdown in scientific progress is a reasonable price to pay for a healthier (less frantic, more diverse and family-friendly) environment in research institutions and Academe as a whole. However, in arguing that point, most of them somehow claim that there actually is no cost to such reforms, that any slowdown would be short-lived and outweighed by "a-happy/diverse-researcher-is-a-productive-researcher" long-term effect. This ignores the laws of scarcity (yes, they do exist whether we like it or not) and seems hypocritical.

    There are plenty of ethical, moral and philosophical reasons to fight gender discrimination.
    But claiming that there are no valid economic (or pragmatic) reasons for such discrimination -- this is not only disingenuous, but intellectually insulting.

  • Engels shall rise
  • Posted by Dr. F. Gump on September 22, 2007 at 2:05pm EDT
  • That "brilliant" thinker and writer Frederick Engels must be recharging to make a comeback. Though nearly every real life attempt at putting "Origins of the Family" and communist/socialist theories into play, few have lasted long. Unfortunately the femmunists keep writing and re-writing the same old manure attempting to keep it fresh.

    For the flat, fourth wave femmunists still hanging on (male and female): let's just take all available money or resources, put it into a single account, and pay all workers the same amount.

    O.K. comrades?

    The U.S.S.R. found that there wasn't quite enough motivation generated by that approach to get people to expend the additional energy and personal risk to do more than just mediocre work.

    Tell us again why anyone should be motivated or driven to excellence if "the person" working 3/4 time will receive the same remuneration?

    Oh yes, raising YOUR kids is the most important thing in the world; even if we don't have kids or have our child-rearing needs taken care of by a stay-at-home mom. And if altruism isn't enough, the spector of Uncle Josef Stalin will threaten a punishment for us slackers who aren't willing to forego our career and personal ambitions to take care of the village idiots' kids.

    PS - Most womyn have CHOICES and most men have responsibilities (I think that needs to be cited as Warren Farrell, Ph.D.)

  • Posted by kgotthardt on September 22, 2007 at 10:40pm EDT
  • You know, a good, on-site, affordable daycare, some flexible hours, and enough vacation time would silence most of this bickering.

    Yeah, Jeff. That would be MY choice. But I really don't HAVE that CHOICE, do I?

    Talk to me in your next life when you come back as a woman.

  • A solution to household help
  • Posted by Caroline Hayes on September 23, 2007 at 4:10pm EDT
  • Slaves! ACF, thank-you for that suggestion. My husband and I have been looking for some reasonably priced household help that we can afford on our salaries as researchers. Even the local teens seem to want quite a lot of money for baby-sitting and lawn mowing services, if you can even get them interested in taking such jobs. As I sit in my office on a beautiful Sunday writing a grant proposal, and my husband watches our child and cooks for tonight (putting his own paper on hold until my grant proposal is done), it would be nice to have the slave doing the laundry, mowing the lawn, and shopping for the coming week. Where can we find these slaves, and how fast can we buy one?

  • Why women leave Academic Medicine
  • Posted by Mary on September 23, 2007 at 8:05pm EDT
  • I do believe that this situation exists in all walks of life. The truth is women do have more to do when raising a family and do have the ability to make contributions to their field. Men desire families too. It is not fair to expect female research staff to forego a family in order to conform to policies written when men had a non-working spouse at home. This is the reality of our lives today. We need to be inclusive in the policies that are set to allow full participation by faculty who desire to do so, male or female. In addition we should strive to study and understand the demands of family life on both male and female faculty to better understand what is needed for success. When positions become scarce we need to assess what is fair to all for there is value in the viewpoints of a diverse group of individuals.

  • Posted by Melanie on September 23, 2007 at 8:30pm EDT
  • I have been fortunate to work in a equitable climate, but for those who do not, please remember that it's possible to make the authorities live up to their own book of rules. This benefits everyone. For example:

    "DEPT OF THE INTERIOR. EQUAL OPPORTUNITY DIRECTIVE NUMBER 2001-07. On May 2, 2000 President Clinton issued Executive Order 13152 which prohibited discrimination in Federal civilian employment based upon an individuals status as a parent...The purpose of the Executive Order is to prevent intentional discrimination against employees because of their status as parents. Although no policy or program is designed exclusively for a single group such as parents, Federal agencies should be exploring the development of programs to complement existing programs that may improve the working lives of parents such as alternative work schedules, leave sharing, the use of sick leave for caring for members of the family, and the use of annual leave to participate in school and other family activities. The Executive Order is designed to prohibit intentional discrimination against parents solely because they are parents and thus put all employees on an equal footing. It is not designed to put other employees at a disadvantage or to give parents preferential treatment. Managers still have full authority to make employment decisions based upon an employees job performance or ability to meet job requirements."

  • Where to get slaves?
  • Posted by ACF on September 23, 2007 at 9:40pm EDT
  • Hi Caroline,

    Ah, yes, it is hard to get real slaves these days!

    But, my post was meant to suggest that one could choose a path that DOES NOT require slaves, either the real kind or your spouse. That is, it might not be wise to choose a career that requires working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, and then choose to have children (which require a lot of time, assuming you are a good parent), and then choose a profession that doesn't pay enough to hire significant help, and then choose a spouse who somehow made the same choices that you made.

    Of course, if you do make all these choices, well, our lives are simply the sum of our choices - good luck! But, if you do make those choices with eyes wide open, then stop whining. Choose another profession. There are plenty of people who can replace you in a second who are willing to work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. If it is too hard for you, then leave. Can you imagine Venus Williams complaining that tennis has gotten too difficult for her and it is "too competitive," so we need to make it easier for everybody. Silliness.

    This problem is very simple to address, actually. It would involve actually discussing expectations before getting married. If both spouses think that they are going to both be academics, go through tenure at the same time, and have children at the same time, then I recommend moving on to the next potential spouse. Not only is it an impractical choice for the parents, but (far more importantly) it is a disaster for the children who inevitably will be neglected, shoved into day care, and raised by random people of no biological connection to the children.

  • Choices
  • Posted by Caroline Hayes on September 24, 2007 at 11:05am EDT
  • ACF, you are right. Many of these problems could be solved in young people would just discuss these issues and work them out before marriage so they could make appropriate choices.

    Imagined conversation between two graduate students with academic aspirations prior to marriage:

    Fiance 1: You know honey, we really shouldn’t try to BOTH go through tenure AND have children at the same time.

    Fiance 2: OK. You are right. Why don’t I get a dead end post-doc job that will never lead to a tenure track position, while you work on getting tenure for 6 years? Maybe eight years if we have two children and I have to stop the clock for a couple years.

    Fiance 2: Yeah! That sounds like a great idea!!

    Fiance 1: Then at the end of 8 years, since the university where we work will rarely consider its own postdocs for tenure track positions and spousal hiring policies are only used if one threatens to leave, I will have to look for a tenure track position in another city. If you don’t land a tenure track position with me, then you can take a dead-end postdoc job. Or hey! We can live in separate cities! Better yet, separate countries!! Think of the exciting cross-cultural experiences that the kids will grow up with as they shuttle back and fourth!

    Fiance 2: OK, maybe it isn’t such an appealing option.

    Fiance 1: Well, then. Let’s work on option 2. Let’s go for tenure at the same time, but lets not BOTH have children at the same time!

    Fiance 2: Great idea! I think it just might work!! Who gets to be a parent first?

    Fiance 1: I just love all the great choices that our modern society offers!

  • Posted by Isis on September 25, 2007 at 11:20am EDT
  • I'm a woman who lost my medical school faculty position due to funding issues.

    What the author didn't mention is that academic research is a mentor driven arena. You cannot apply for (and cannot therefore receive) an NIH K (career development) award without a mentor. They are referred to as "mentored awards". When I was hired into my soft money position, I was given a grant to work on an no mentoring, and the director of my research center said to me that I wouldn't get any mentoring there, either. One of my (full professor) colleagues said these exact words to me: "you were set up to fail".

    So, what I am wondering about is if there are gender differences in who is mentored, who they are mentored by, and what junior faculty support and mentoring is available in different departments. Because, from what I have seen, that is a primary key to academic success.

    As for this biological clock and timing issue, there are data to support that men who have children advance in their careers, and women who have children don't.

    Given these disparities, what role does parenting play for women in academic psychology? Research has shown that babies and academic careers do not always mix well for women. Research at UC-Berkeley found that academic men having children within five years of their receiving the PhD were 38% more likely than their women counterparts to achieve tenure (Mason & Goulden, 2002). Further, Mason and Goulden (2004) found that only one in three women who takes a tenure-track university job before having a child ever becomes a mother. And 38% of women academics surveyed reported that they had fewer children than they had wanted, compared to only 18% of their male counterparts. However, women with PhDs in adjunct or part time positions have children at similar rates to tenure-track academic men.

    Are mommy academics just lazier than their daddy colleagues?

    Women with children devote 8% less time per week than men with children to their professional responsibilities, yet are spending 23% more time on household duties and 75% more time on caregiving activities than their academic male counterparts with children. The result is that women between 30 – 50 with children clock over a hundred hours each week on caregiving, housework, and professional responsibilities, compared with a little more than eighty-five for men with children (Mason & Goulden, 2004).

    Is this the fault of their employers? No.

    However, I write this to let you know that, like most such problems, the causes are likely complex and multifactorial. Mentoring and grant support on the one hand, institutional discrimination, and cultural factors in caregiving responsibilities at home all play roles in these disparities.

  • Are some women smarter?
  • Posted by Female scientist , Dr on September 26, 2007 at 1:50pm EDT
  • Some comments suggested that women can't cut it and decide to focus on family life instead of being dedicated academic researchers who slave away and earn grant money. Is it that women can't cut it at academic institutions or are they going away to consulting jobs, industry, and creating their own businesses where they work hard and earn a lot more money than any academic researcher. With more cash, women can hire extra help to pick up the children, cook, and clean. These sound like smart women to me. I know them because I am one of them.

    So academics sacrifice their lives for tenure track positions that are going away. The state of academia needs to change otherwise all the SMART people will take their talents and move to careers where they are intellectually challenged, earn more money, and have a work/life balance due to higher income.

    I'd like to see a study where we track where all the women who leave science go.

  • Posted by reluctant_loudmouth on September 26, 2007 at 7:25pm EDT
  • "These sound like smart women to me. I know them because I am one of them."

    More power to you.

    However, the academic job market is full of people, who are just as smart and talented and yet are willing to make these sacrifices.
    Unless you claim that all those people are worse researchers than you are, there really is no economic or pragmatic reason for the academic institutions to find resources to accommodate your needs (better salary, subsidized childcare, extended tenure clock, reduced teaching load, etc). There are plenty of social, ethical, and legal reasons for the institutions to do that (& many of them already have such policies in place), but let's not pretend that they are not paying the price for it. The opportunity costs are considerable: an extended tenure clock, for example, means that the department is forced to take a longer-term bet on a faculty member (even if he/she is clearly unlikely to gain tenure in the end), which leads to a slower turn-over in tenure-track positions and (indirectly) to higher teaching loads and/or larger reliance on adjunct instructors.

  • Ann Crittenden "The Price of Motherhood"
  • Posted by Cheap Labour on September 27, 2007 at 11:40am EDT
  • Also Mary Ann Mason's 'The Equality Trap'

    Here's my contribution...

    Many times in my life, in an effort to do the necessary but impossible task of working full time while raising children, I have been berated by bosses for missing work. A sick child at home was no excuse. The last time it happened I was a forty year-old Resident, had been up all night and the berating boss was an attending physician my age. I knew he had no such problems having ditched his own three children and I was just tired enough not to care.

    I told him that it was he who was the freeloader. That my sick child would one day be paying taxes that would fund his retirement and he could go to hell. I was in fact subsidizing his sorry a__. I look at the zeros on my Social Security account and] it makes me think there's a social problem of enormous proportions out there.

  • Posted by Dr Anne C Petersen , Professor at Stanford U on September 30, 2007 at 7:35pm EDT
  • As scientists, we should be interested in the data on this topic. I'm always amazed at how much opinion and belief surfaces with the topic of women and science. For more data, see the recent report from the National Academies: Beyond Bias and Barriers: Fulfilling the Potential of Women in Academic Science and Engineering, http://books.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=11741.
    Dr Petersen

  • Susan Herbst comments
  • Posted by Melanie on October 4, 2007 at 9:20am EDT
  • In an Oct 2 article by Susan Herbst, the following: "...I still know that my busiest and most stressful years were as a young professor with children in diapers. Getting that call from the daycare center to pick up a suddenly very ill child, 20 minutes before you are to teach a room full of undergraduates, still rates among the worst moments one can have as a professional."

  • Posted by Bill on October 9, 2007 at 11:40am EDT
  • look, you can delay tenure clocks and make hours more flexible and make day care more readily available and do all that nice corporate stuff that companies do so women can have children and work effectively. if you take time away from yoru science to have children, your competitors who don't will kill you. that's all there is to it. science is not about collaborating, playing nice, and working together. it's about who gets there first. you want to be first ? you have to work.

    it goes for dads, too. you want to play with your kids every night and and on weekends ? chances are, you're not going to be a very competitive scientist. that's life.

    if you want a nice family life, do something else. that's for men and women.

  • More hours = more results ?
  • Posted by Luisa (postdoc) , Dr at Penn on October 10, 2007 at 3:35pm EDT
  • There seems to be the unspoken preconception in this discussion that the more hours you put in, the more data, papers, grants etc you will produce.
    When I attended my "new postdoc orientation" here at Penn there was a talk given by a (male) Prof with the message: "If you only work 40h a week (he recommended 75) you will not be successful."
    My response to this attitude is:
    1) How inefficient are you?
    2) Does killing yourself for a job qualify as success?

  • Posted by DM on October 11, 2007 at 8:50pm EDT
  • Dear Isis
    Hear hear I had similar experiences and there is clearly a correlation between good mentoring and success. Without equivalent numbers of females making it to the highest levels good mentors are few and far between. The causes of failure are indeed multifactoral but in my experience usually not related to number hours that are put in!!!

    Dear Caroline
    I suggest that what you are looking for is not a slave but a wife (oh wait ,,,,,).

  • difference in ego
  • Posted by mari watanabe at st. louis university on November 13, 2007 at 6:40pm EST
  • I think that one of the reasons there are fewer women at the top anywhere, CEOs, presidents, department chairs, and why more women drop out of any endeavor, is that they have less confidence in their abilities compared to men. If you had two people with equal abilities and equal accomplishments, one a man, one a woman, you’d find that the man would have a much higher image of himself than the woman. The woman would focus on her inadequacies and failures, including guilt about how much time they spend with their children, while the man would focus on his accomplishments. This difference in the psychology of how men and women view themselves ultimately leads to women dropping out of competitions. While women are in school, and there are objective and fair criteria of success, such as good grades, they do better than men. But once out in the real world, where success is determined by many intangibles, rather than raw ability, I think women tend to lose confidence, and blame their inadequacies for their failures, whereas a man faced with the same failure would blame everyone except himself, such as his boss, unfair reviewers, etc.
    I have these opinions because I see that intelligence and hard work are not the only reasons some people get ahead. Being good at bluffing, being good at hiring subordinates smarter than themselves, knowing how to suck up to important people while secretly not wasting a moment of their time on helping anyone not useful to them, for example. In academia, getting on the right bandwagon is also important. Yet, most people would not entertain for a moment the notion that their success is due to anything other than intelligence and hard work. And so, the successful males are eager to attribute the failure of women to having less drive and putting in fewer hours.
    Is society less well off because competent women drop out of science where less competent men forge ahead? Probably. But if you think how little the majority of scientists actually contribute to society with their research, no matter how much we ivory tower dwellers want to think otherwise, then the loss is not that great in absolute terms.