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Who You Calling Heterodox?

October 3, 2007

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Political magazines and mainstream media outlets have recently unearthed a struggle for the very soul of economics. It's playing out in scholarly journals and in the back corridors of economics departments as lone, embattled researchers resist the stifling free-market doctrine that dominates their field.

That's the picture painted in recent months by the liberal magazines In These Times and The Nation and, more recently, The New York Times and The Atlantic in profiles about a circle of scholars who have been sending ripples through the power structure of the economics profession. The general assumption in the profiles is that economics is a field dominated by people who cling, sometimes beyond evidence, to free-market dogma, disadvantaging those whose findings might contradict the dominant view; the rebels, in turn, are presented as embattled exceptions to the rule. But a group of economists at George Mason University, and other prominent researchers, say this notion of a free-market mainstream is oversimplified at best and inaccurate at worst.

"There’s really not any data, and there’s a caricature, that economists are extremely free market," said Tyler Cowen, a professor of economics at George Mason who is popular in free-market and libertarian circles. "I think the differences are overdrawn."

The narrative tends to involve a familiar cast of characters: Alan Blinder and Alan Krueger of Princeton University; George A. Akerlof, David Card and Robert Reich of the University of California at Berkeley. They have, by their own accord or not, been associated with a movement that over a period of years has questioned neoclassical orthodoxy from within the mainstream of the discipline. Some have favored, for instance, a higher minimum wage (while more free-market-oriented economists would say that causes people on the margin to lose their jobs) or a more progressive tax system (instead of a flat tax), or written about the downsides of globalization and wealth inequality. (They are separate from the so-called "heterodox" camps, which are situated on the fringes of the left and right.)

Surely such views aren't out of touch with those of many Americans. But are they that heretical among other economists, as media profiles have suggested?

"The average view may be more towards free markets than the population as a whole, but economists are still about equally diverse in their views, reflecting I think the weight they put on distribution, fairness, relative to overall efficiency or economic growth, and that’s a judgment call in terms of what policies are desirable even if economists can agree on the facts in terms of what the implications of what the policies would be," said Roger H. Gordon, an economist at the University of California San Diego and editor of the Journal of Economic Literature.

To be sure, there have been numerous reports of hostility from colleagues at other departments when a study reaches a conclusion that would seem at odds with a free-market worldview. Card, who later won the prestigious John Bates Clark Medal, was the target of vicious attacks from other economists and the media after work he did with Krueger was used to support the Clinton administration's 1996 minimum wage hike bill, for example.

If Blinder, Krueger and others are insurgents from within, then Daniel B. Klein, a professor of economics at George Mason, has been at the center of the counterinsurgency with the journal he founded and edits, Econ Journal Watch. The so-called heretics are "sitting in the center of it," Klein insisted. "The Alan Blinders and Robert Reiches and Kruegers … these guys are like president of the AEA types," referring to the American Economics Association. (Krueger is on the executive committee and Akerlof is a former president. Blinder declined to comment.)

And Klein has numbers to back up his claims. Some of those numbers come in the form of party donations, similar to studies (some of which have also been done by Klein at George Mason) purporting to show political bias among professors in academe: For example, one Econ Journal Watch study found a 5.1 to 1 ratio between contributors to the Democratic versus Republican party among a sample of 2,000 members of the AEA. Klein found similar lopsidedness in the authors and editors of journals (including the Journal of Economic Literature) and even within the groups of people listed in authors' acknowledgments in journal articles.

But party affiliation doesn't necessarily say much about scholars' policy preferences: Consider the Clinton Democratic Party's general market orientation and commitment to deficit reduction, or the Bush administration's interventions into the market with steel tariffs and the Medicare prescription benefit.

Another study, by Klein, quantifies economists' views on policy questions (from a survey of AEA members to which 264 responded), and finds that for some questions, like the minimum wage, most economists lean toward a more liberal (or "interventionist") policy -- hardly what one would expect from wholesale believers of laissez-faire economics. But again, it's possible that subtleties are being obscured in the questions; answers might not distinguish between a preference for, say, a higher minimum wage as opposed to the current level, or any minimum wage at all.

"If you ask is mainstream economics free market, it’s relative," said Gary Becker, a former AEA president and an economist at the University of Chicago, traditionally considered a bastion of free-market economics. "I would say, however, the trend in economics in the last 30 years has been toward more support of free markets." After the 1960s, when Keynesian economics still influenced researchers and presidents alike, a massive paradigm shift began with the rise of the so-called "Chicago school," and with it Nobel laureate Milton Friedman, who became AEA president in 1967 and won the Nobel in 1976.

Compared with other social scientists, economists are certainly more supportive of markets, Becker clarified. "It’s long been true that economists are more conservative, more free market than other groups. ... But still it’s true that within economics, people like Blinder would not be very rare. There are quite a few people like Blinder who support government solutions to different problems."

That has especially been the case over the last several years, with the growing popularity within prestigious departments of behavioral economics, which questions the assumption that people are always rational. At the same time, prominent economists have responded to the effects of globalization and increasing wealth inequality in the United States with solutions that don't fit within strict neoclassical interpretations.

"They’re great economists, they’re really smart people, but they’re not at all heterodox," Cowen said.

That label is sometimes reserved for a coterie of economists who go further, rejecting even some of the basic founding principles of economics. Sequestered in departments at the University of Notre Dame, the New School and others, the heterodox economists often complain that they aren't respected in the field and are systematically kept out of mainstream debates. Most find it difficult to publish in mainstream journals or present at major conferences.

"It’s kind of like the third parties in politics," said James Devine, a professor at Loyola Marymount University who describes his approach as within the heterodox tradition.

But, as with any vaguely defined term, "heterodox" can be used to mean anything. It's "an ambiguous term," Gordon said . "What’s heterodox changes over time," said Avinash K. Dixit, at Princeton, who is the president-elect of the AEA. Sure enough, the Association for Heterodox Economics lists researchers who approach the discipline from an Austrian perspective -- like some at George Mason.

"Very conservative people can be heterodox," added Devine, whose areas of interest include labor economics and Marxian political economy. "We’re basically seen as consumers. That’s the dominant [view] and I don’t think that’s going away in the near future, but there is some change, an opening, towards heterodox views, and that comes mostly from experimental economics and behavioral economics," he said.

As Devine sees it, the neoclassical model that dominates economics has a subset -- laissez-faire market economics -- that he calls "more of a political commitment" than a scholarly consensus. So within the field, he said, economists like Blinder and Card (who subscribe to most of the mainstream tenets) are rebelling against that political orthodoxy, while the "experimentalists" working in behavioral economics or more fringe heterodox circles are chipping away at the neoclassical foundations themselves.

How Did Some Economists Become Mavericks?

Klein -- speaking from Sweden, which, although not known for adherence to capitalist ideals, is home to several well-known free-market think tanks -- described his project as a critique of the dominant mentalities of the economics profession. "I think that culture is not at all like the toothpaste market. I think that culture is very different than markets for washing machines and labor and so on. And we’re talking about culture, and it’s much more like a genteel society, a kind of circular, self-validating scholastic system," he said.

He described the work in Econ Journal Watch as a kind of "sociology of economics" that approaches the discipline from a classical liberal perspective. At George Mason's economics department, where professors routinely assign Adam Smith and stress the importance of foundational texts, that isn't necessarily an unusual approach. And while the journal operates from somewhat off the sidelines, Klein said the readership is increasing and it has recently been added to the major journal indexes. Six Nobel laureates sit on the journal's advisory council. Becker said he didn't follow the journal, while Gordon said he'd heard of it. "It’s being written for economists being involved in the government, in Washington or public outreach more broadly," Gordon suggested.

Klein describes his classical liberal approach as one that is strongly grounded in guiding texts and principles. He says his journal doesn't adhere blindly to laissez-faire economics or assume that there is necessarily a scientific basis for the view. "Our whole view is that there are these different character types of economists, and we kind of represent one and it’s kind of an old and venerable one," he said, seeing "economics as a liberal creed" in the original sense. "We kind of see liberalism ... as kind of the jewel of Western civilization, so naturally we go back to the original texts."

Like Adam Smith, he said, he believes "a presumption of liberty should be taken seriously," and that the burden of proof should be on those who wish to intervene in markets. Rather than math-heavy papers elaborating on complex models to describe various economic phenomena, a typical EJW article might look at whether Smith could be published in an economics journal today, or seek to illuminate the character differences of economists based on their university Web sites.

Against the narrative of a mainstream dominated by free-market ideologues, Klein offers several reasons why there is a common misperception about economists' views as a whole:

  • A confusion between free markets and free trade. While most economists would probably support trade liberalization between nations in some form or another because of its worth as an engine of wealth creation, that is not the same as supporting relatively unregulated markets at home.
  • Klein said he believes there is also a bias, perhaps unconscious, in the media: "Basically they’re social-democratic periodicals, and probably journalists, writing those articles talking almost exclusively … to people on the left."
  • The persistence of straw-man arguments. In a recent book review, Columbia economist and Nobel laureate Joseph E. Stiglitz, the author of Globalization and Its Discontents, wrote of Milton Friedman and others' "belief in the perfection of market economies on models that assumed perfect information, perfect competition, perfect risk markets.... They were never based on solid empirical and theoretical foundations, and even as many of these policies were being pushed, academic economists were explaining the limitations of markets -- for instance, whenever information is imperfect, which is to say always." In an e-mail, Klein called this characterization "simply untrue": Friedman and other like-minded theorists simply believed that "in most instances, free markets are less bad than the alternative."

So who's being marginalized, and by whom? Both the editors behind EJW and many of the economists it sets in its sights have considered themselves embattled by the other. "So, everyone in a debate always wants to call the other side ideologues, essentially, and the critics of economics are doing that here," Cowen explained. "They like to think they’re on the outside, there’s something new, they’re warring against some powerful authority."

About theories that run counter to the neoclassical model, he said, "It’s a view that’s been with us for centuries."

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Comments on Who You Calling Heterodox?

  • The greatest trick ...
  • Posted by Rick Martin on October 3, 2007 at 8:50am EDT
  • ... the devil ever played was to convince people he didn't exist. The statement that "economists on the right can be heterodox, too" is an element of such a trick.

    Key things to keep in mind:

    Stiglitz's point that the Chicago School orthodoxy has no empirical basis (and Stiglitz is hardly a screaming radical).

    The statement that Behavioral Economics is only growing in popularity "over the last several years". Behavioral Economics is based on the "radical" idea that people sometimes decide on bases other than the purely rational. Like that should be news to anyone.

    The fact that microeconomists still define success as an increase in profitability, while macroeconomists still define it in terms of GDP. Externalizing costs, so long as it's legal and doesn't foment customer uprising, is seen as an economic good. The destruction wreaked by Hurrican Katrina, because of the economic activity it stimulated, is seen as beneficial. Parachuting into third world countries the day after a natural disaster and conditioning "humanitarian" assistance on turning critical sectors of the economy (clean water, for example) over to foreign-owned corporations is seen as justified, even honorable.

    When is an economist truly heterodox? When (s)he looks through a lens which sees something other than dollars -- when (s)he returns to the Enlightenment tradition of studying not Economics alone, but Political Economy (following such radicals as Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill). That's something no scholar on the so-called "heterodox" right dare do.

  • Posted by George Leef on October 3, 2007 at 9:15am EDT
  • The name calling -- free market ideologues -- is nonsensical. I know of no economist who maintains as a matter of dogma that market processes are invariably preferable to government intervention. The argument is that when you compare the effects of coercive political interference with the effects of leaving matters up to voluntary action, the latter nearly always looks better. Good economists don't fall for "the romance of legislation" as Professor James Buchanan puts it.

  • Posted by Barry Posner on October 3, 2007 at 9:50am EDT
  • Good lord, Rick, I don't know where you get your ideas. Pick up any elementary microeconomics text, and you'll discover that the core measure of success is utility, assumed as a proxy for happiness. You'll also find that the internalizing of externalities is generally seen as a core goal. An externality is a market failure, and almost every economist stands in favor of reducing market failure. You make the classical layman's error of assuming that "pro-free-market" equals "pro-business". It doesn't. Every business strives for mononopoly out of self-interest, and free markets do the best job of undermining monopoly.

    You can go on about how people should not be self-interested, and put their love of their fellow man above all else, but you'd be flying in the face of human nature.

  • More falsehoods about free market economists
  • Posted by Steven Horwitz on October 3, 2007 at 9:50am EDT
  • Mr. Martin says:

    The destruction wreaked by Hurricane Katrina, because of the economic activity it stimulated, is seen as beneficial.

    I challenge you to find one "free market" economist who has made this argument. In fact, I challenge you to find ANY economist who has. No serious economist of any stripe would make this claim.

    The fallacy of the "broken window" is 200 years old in economics, and every intro econ student knows that the claim that natural and social disasters are "good" is simply wrong, regardless of their politics. Simply put, had their been no Katrina, every dollar spent rebuilding the Gulf could have been spent improving it. We'd have a "Gulf Coast" and more, rather than just (barely) a Gulf Coast. Digging holes and filling them back up again is not "good" for the economy.

    In fact, if any economist came close to that view, it is not "free market" types, but Keynes.

    When (s)he looks through a lens which sees something other than dollars — when (s)he returns to the Enlightenment tradition of studying not Economics alone, but Political Economy (following such radicals as Adam Smith and John Stuart Mill). That’s something no scholar on the so-called “heterodox” right dare do.

    Well I hate to inform you Mr. Martin, but that's exactly what many "on the right" do! First of all, economists don't only see dollars, we see utility, which might be about dollars but might not. Economics is not about pecuniary gain but the attempts by humans to improve their situations, however they might define them.

    Second, there is a "political economy" of the "right" that does take seriously the breath of human experience and work outside the narrow confines of neoclassical economics. I suggest you read some Hayek or Buchanan for starters. If anything, it is the mainstream of the discipline that refuses to look at the broader Enlightenment tradition. It is folks like those at George Mason (as Klein notes) who are teaching the classic texts and broader approaches to the study of society.

    If you're going to repeat falsehoods about free market economists, at least make your lies Really Big Ones like Naomi Klein does. They're much more entertaining that way.

  • The Ivory Tower Syndrome
  • Posted by Diana Relke , Professor at U. of Saskatchewan on October 3, 2007 at 12:45pm EDT
  • 'Stiglitz ... [writes] ... “belief in the perfection of market economies on models that assumed perfect information, perfect competition, perfect risk markets.... They were never based on solid empirical and theoretical foundations, and even as many of these policies were being pushed, academic economists were explaining the limitations of markets — for instance, whenever information is imperfect, which is to say always.”'

    In other words, economists need to get out more. Maybe a sabbatical in Latin America is in order. While we're teaching Smith and Friedman as if they were scripture, our students are reading Naomi Klien -- whose *The Shock Doctrine* got a pretty favourable review by Stiglitz in the NYT over the weekend.

  • Ms. Relke
  • Posted by Larry on October 3, 2007 at 2:00pm EDT
  • Ms. Relke, I enjoy your comments here, but I am curious as to what point it serves assigning a current newspaper article to academics? This seems like a strange way to teach any school of economic thought.

    Whatever the case, plenty of economists I know have developing world experience. Their modes of analysis and conclusions differ.

  • Thelogy
  • Posted by Roger on October 3, 2007 at 3:20pm EDT
  • Many of these comments (on both sides) really belong on the religion page. It's pretty clear that for those who believe in free markets, evidence against free markets will never be perceived. Just as believers in God need only to look around them to see evidence of the work of a benevolent God, so market believers. Here I quote an old friend -- "I look around me, and I see that markets work." Faith is faith.

    As for the others -- weak as the evidence is for neoclassical economics, where is yours? Experimental economists will be able to answer that, but how many others can?

  • ???
  • Posted by Diana Relke , Professor at U of Saskatchewan on October 3, 2007 at 3:20pm EDT
  • Inside Higher Ed is a site devoted exclusively to "newspaper" articles -- and four other newspaper articles are hotlinked in this particular one (all worth reading, by the way).

    Besides, although I didn't "assign" anything to academics, *The Shock Doctrine* -- a 500-page book, not an article -- wouldn't be a bad recommendation. It's about real life at the pointy end of Friedmanomics.

  • IHE so much fun
  • Posted by Buzz on October 3, 2007 at 4:05pm EDT
  • With communism in China known as "market-Leninism," when France turns right, when Sweden pulls back on the welfare state, when Carter-onomics brought down Lord Keynes -- whatever Mr. Blinder, et al., claim is relevant? As in, the most-comfortable Marxists live in the U.S., not Moscow, Beijing, Paris, or Ho Chi Minh City?

    Reminds one of the old joke about the economists on the desert island with canned food -- "assume a can opener." Except with Mr. Blinder, et al., it would be "rationality."

  • Balderdash From Cowen
  • Posted by Robert Vienneau , Robert on October 3, 2007 at 5:50pm EDT
  • This from Cowen is balderdash: "'So, everyone in a debate always wants to call the other side ideologues, essentially, and the critics of economics are doing that here,' Cowen explained. 'They like to think they’re on the outside, there's something new, they’re warring against some powerful authority.'"

    There are debates within economics. Some economists, such as Mark Blaug, Duncan Foley, and S. Abu Turab Rizvi, for example, have critiqued various approaches within neoclassical or mainstream economics. So did Nicky Kaldor and Joan Robinson some time ago. To depict these economists as being "critics of economics", with no modifier for "economics", is ignorant or worse.

    Furthermore, I don't think the article gets the politics of the orthodox-heterodox debates right. I think the primary political contest here is for resources and attention in academia. (Since over on the TPM Cafe debate (http://bookclub.tpmcafe.com/blog/bookclub/2007/may/29/is_neoclassical_economics_a_mafia), Cowen refers to "Democrat" versus "Republican" economists, he is either ignorant or dishonest. Should he then be receiving one's scarce time?)

    I think Challenge (http://www.challengemagazine.com/) a good, somewhat popular overview of debates within economics. I don't know think they yet provided any comment on this most recent popular notice of decades-old debates within economics.

  • Posted by Jane S. Shaw , Executive Vice President at J. W. Pope Center for Higher Education Policy on October 3, 2007 at 8:50pm EDT
  • This is a provocative article showing that Keynesianism has cast a long shadow -- but a new day may be dawning.

    Strangely, Joseph Stiglutz continues to claim that the flaw of traditional economics -- and thus of Milton Friedman's economics -- is that it was based on "perfect competition." This is completely wrong, a straw man. The free market is far from perfect, but it tends to be more beneficial to humankinds than the statist alternatives that are so widely heralded and so dismally realized.

  • Naomi Klein? Latin America?
  • Posted by MnZ on October 3, 2007 at 8:55pm EDT
  • I will bring that up to my Latin American economist friends. Yes, I can see it now, "You obviously know nothing about economics and your own countries. Let a journalist from Montreal show you the light."

  • Posted by jim mcclure , Professor at Ball State University on October 4, 2007 at 7:30am EDT
  • From the write up:

    "Becker said he didn’t follow the journal [EJW], while Gordon said he’d heard of it. “It’s being written for economists being involved in the government, in Washington or public outreach more broadly,” Gordon suggested."

    Given Becker's interest in the intersection between sociology and economics, it seems paradoxical that he doesn't follow EJW, which, as Klein explained in the write-up, provides a forum for explorations of, among other things, the sociology of the economics profession.

    I think Gordon is too vague in saying that EJW is being written for "economists being involved in the government, in Washington, or in public outreach broadly". As Klein explained, EJW is a forum where critique and critical commentary is published and disseminated to an ever increasing readership.

    One of the most exciting things for me is that EJW fills a void in the economics profession that has been created because the top journals in the profession have drastically downsized their publications of critical commentary pieces (i.e., comments, replies, and rejoinders). About thirty years ago, it was common for the American Economic Review to devote more than 25% of journal publications to critical commentary. Open debate put new ideas in economics to a sort of "trial by fire." But beginning in the 1980's the AER editors adopted a policy of "hostility" toward the publication of such works. A colleague, Phil Coelho, and I have several papers published at EJW that provide evidence of this trend and that explore explanations of this trend. But the important point here is that EJW is becoming a key vehicle by which new ideas in economics can be debated, discussed, criticized, augmented, supported, or refuted.

  • laissez-faire bas
  • Posted by James Devine , Prof. at LMU on October 4, 2007 at 7:30am EDT
  • George Leef writes: [quote] The name calling — free market ideologues — is nonsensical. I know of no economist who maintains as a matter of dogma that market processes are invariably preferable to government intervention. The argument is that when you compare the effects of coercive political interference with the effects of leaving matters up to voluntary action, the latter nearly always looks better. Good economists don’t fall for “the romance of legislation” as Professor James Buchanan puts it. [unquote]

    Note how the orthodox _laissez faire_ bias creeps silently into to paragraph. Without making any argument for his position, Leef simply assumes that non-governmental activity is _always_ "voluntary" while governmental action is _always_ "coercive."

    But market activity can be very coercive. When a near-by for-profit steel mill pollutes the air, that trespasses on my lungs, which is very coercive. It violates my freedom. When banks and financial markets go into a tail-spin because of speculative activity and that causes a recession, that's very coercive, because it imposes sustained unemployment on many people. Leet seems to be falling for what should be called the "romance of the 'free' market" (that of for quoting authority figures).

    Similarly, government doesn't just impose rules and extract taxes (boo!). It can also create freedom (yay!). Having national parks, national defense, protected individual property rights, etc. gives freedom to many. And these would not exist without a central government.

    The market = freedom / government = serfdom dichotomy is nonsense. What's needed is democratic control over both the state and the market. The citizenry, not ideologues, should be the ones who decide on the mix of market and government.
    JD

  • My Apologies
  • Posted by Jane S. Shaw , Executive Vice President at John William Pope Center for Higher Education Policy on October 4, 2007 at 7:30am EDT
  • My apologies to Joseph Stiglitz for misspelling his name in my previous comment!

  • Posted by Gabriel Hanna on October 4, 2007 at 8:35am EDT
  • The market = freedom / government = serfdom dichotomy is nonsense. What’s needed is democratic control over both the state and the market. The citizenry, not ideologues, should be the ones who decide on the mix of market and government.

    The first sentence is right, which is why no no one actually believes this--it is filed under "man (straw)".

    As for the second sentence: the power of the rich comes from money, but the power of government comes from guns. Guns always beat money. It was Machiavelli who observed that iron is powerful than gold; true, you may buy iron with gold, but the people with the iron may take your gold while they're at it. I do not understand why some people prefer to trust the people with guns over the people with money. Government is inherently coercive. Just because the wolves vote to have the sheep for dinner doesn't mean that it's just--and maybe the mice will vote to bell the cat, but what good will it do?

    As for the third sentence--well, some citizens are idealogues, and they have the same rights as the rest of us, if you really believe in "democracy".

  • guns & money
  • Posted by James Devine on October 4, 2007 at 10:50am EDT
  • me, before:
    The market = freedom / government = serfdom dichotomy is nonsense. What’s needed is democratic control over both the state and the market. The citizenry, not ideologues, should be the ones who decide on the mix of market and government.

    Gabriel Hanna:
    The first sentence is right, which is why no no one actually believes this—it is filed under “man (straw)".

    Me, again:
    Except that Mr. Leet sure seems to believe in this dichotomy. He's not the only one.

    G.H.:
    As for the second sentence: the power of the rich comes from money, but the power of government comes from guns. Guns always beat money.

    me, again:
    It's true that in a serious crisis (cf. Iraq), guns trump money. But in our society, as it actually exists (which is not in an Iraq-type mess as yet), guns and money are almost always in alliance. That is, (continually-shifting coalitions of) the capitalists control the state, which (following Max Weber's definition) monopolizes the means of violence. In "normal" times, the military and the police have a lot to say about the _details_ of how the state is run, but they are usually subordinate to those who control the economy.

    "Those who control the economy" does not refer to the little people, by the way. The more money you have, the more control you get, unless you (gasp!) form a labor union or something against _laissez-faire_ strictures.

    GH:
    It was Machiavelli who observed that iron is powerful than gold; true, you may buy iron with gold, but the people with the iron may take your gold while they’re at it.

    me, again:
    I don't like basing arguments on quotes from authorities, but are you saying that the Pentagon is stealing from the capitalists? That sounds unpatriotic in these days of the PATRIOT act. But maybe you're right: look at the amazing pork barrels that the DOD has built. But the rich seem to think these rip-offs are worth it. They seem to favor "Defense" spending over stuff like providing medical insurance to children.

    GH:
    I do not understand why some people prefer to trust the people with guns over the people with money. Government is inherently coercive. Just because the wolves vote to have the sheep for dinner doesn’t mean that it’s just—and maybe the mice will vote to bell the cat, but what good will it do?

    me, again:
    Again with the dichotomy (guns vs. money). I thought that it had been filed under "man (straw)." (If it ever is filed, it should go next to the innuendo "some people prefer.") The choice is _not_ between the folks with guns and those with money. As noted, the latter are in cahoots with the former: the currently-dominant coalition of the rich uses its money power to steer the state to serve their purposes, especially nowadays with hardly any countervailing power from below.

    Without state power to enforce their property rights, the folks with money would find that their money was worthless. Are you suggesting that we get rid of the state? That idea works really well in Iraq and Somalia, doesn't it?

    We can't avoid having a state, unless you prefer Iraq- or Somalia-style anarchy. The question is who controls the state: the rich (as now) or the people? (I'm ignoring other choices. _You_ could be the "benevolent" despot, for example.)

    GH:
    As for the third sentence—well, some citizens are idealogues, and they have the same rights as the rest of us, if you really believe in “democracy".

    me:
    That's right. there are a lot of fools with money, too (cf. George Bush, Henry Ford, etc.) And as a group, they're the current sovereign in the US, running a democracy of the rich. But I'd prefer one person/one vote to the current system of one dollar/one vote. (or is one dollar being replaced by one Euro nowadays?) People who are ruled by the league of money and guns should have _some_ say over how they're ruled.

    JD

  • Coercion
  • Posted by TallDave on October 4, 2007 at 12:00pm EDT
  • "When banks and financial markets go into a tail-spin because of speculative activity and that causes a recession, that’s very coercive"

    Argh. "Coercion" means the use of force/threat to make someone do something (e.g., the government will arrest you if you don't pay your taxes; thus, taxes are coercive). It is NOT a catch-all term for anything bad that happens.

    For instance, spitting on someone is not coercion, it's just acting like a jerk. Telling them you will spit on them if they don't give you their wallet is coercion.

  • Posted by Gabriel Hanna on October 4, 2007 at 1:10pm EDT
  • JD, can you think in terms other than black-and-white for a minute?

    You can't possibly have comprehended anything you've read in the comments if you think that I, or anyone else, believes in what you call "market=freedom / government=serfdom".

    And I never said that people with money and people with guns can't be the same, or implied it--or that they can't be in cahoots.
    Of course they can. If you have guns its easy to get money--didn't I just say that?

    And as for the US being a country where it's all run by rich people, that's something a cartoon Marxist might say. There is nothing approaching, as you say, one dollar one vote.

    Do rich people have more influence and power than poor people? Of course they do. No one denies it. But it's silly to say that the rich control everything; they don't. They always have to watch out for populist demagogues, especially in a liberal democracy .

    And it's silly to deny that government has any power but coercion. Even the instances you cite of the government "providing freedom" are really instances of coercion used to promote or protect a freedom. Taxes are not optional.

  • Coercion
  • Posted by Jim Devine on October 4, 2007 at 1:20pm EDT
  • me: “When banks and financial markets go into a tail-spin because of speculative activity and that causes a recession, that’s very coercive”

    TallDave:
    Argh. “Coercion” means the use of force/threat to make someone do something (e.g., the government will arrest you if you don’t pay your taxes; thus, taxes are coercive). It is NOT a catch-all term for anything bad that happens.

    me:
    Arguing about the meaning of words is an extremely sterile activity. (Hey, what's the diff between "freedom" and "liberty"? Discuss. See you next week, after the long and inconclusive discussion.)

    What does it matter what specific word is used? If Xavier imposes a negative result on Yvette without her consent, does it matter which word we use? If he spits on her, it forces her to clean herself up -- or to live for awhile with spit on her face. It doesn't matter if we call it "coercion" or not.

    If the speculators put the economy into a tail-spin it does put others -- who did not gamble -- into unpleasant situations that they did not choose to get into. When Robert Maxwell's financial skullduggery got him into big trouble (and pushed him to take his own life), a lot of people who worked for him were pushed into disasters that they did not choose. (This contingency did not show up in the contract they signed.) When a factory pollutes the air, it forces us to breathe poison.

    As an example of "coercion," TallDave writes:
    "the government will arrest you if you don’t pay your taxes; thus, taxes are coercive"

    Similarly, if your boss tells you that you have to do more work per day -- or else you're fired -- that's coercive. If your boss fires you for pilfering office supplies (whether you really did so or not), it's coercive. If If the local factory decides to shut down because wages are lower in China, it's coercive: it forces the employees and businesses catering to those employees to seek other jobs, often paying much lower wages (after a "spell" of unemployment, natch).

    It's a big illusion that it's only the government which imposes costs on others without their consent. If you don't want to call that "coercion," that's okay. It's the content of words that counts, not how they are spelled or sound. It's a cheap trick to say that "only the government engages in coercion" by insisting on a specific definition of "coercion" that makes this statement true by definition.
    JD

  • black/white thinking
  • Posted by Jim Devine on October 4, 2007 at 6:30pm EDT
  • Gabriel Hanna writes: "JD, can you think in terms other than black-and-white for a minute?"

    I don't think in those terms at all. In fact, I was specifically arguing against the "government bad/market baad" sheep. They engage in exactly that type of thinking.

    "You can’t possibly have comprehended anything you’ve read in the comments if you think that I, or anyone else, believes in what you call [the] 'market=freedom / government=serfdom' [dichotomy]."

    I was responding to Mr. Leef, who seems to think in such terms. The George Mason folks seem to think in exactly those terms, too.

    "And I never said that people with money and people with guns can’t be the same, or implied it—or that they can’t be in cahoots. Of course they can. If you have guns its easy to get money—didn’t I just say that?"

    But you were weighing the benefits & costs of the people with guns vs. those with money. Sure, you didn't say they couldn't overlap. In fact, I thought you'd agree with my point: the gross overlap between the capitalists' power and state power seems a useful point against the aforementioned sheep. When the rich control the state (more than anyone else does) the power of money and the power of guns is merged (unless there is popular opposition).

    "And as for the US being a country where it’s all run by rich people, that’s something a cartoon Marxist might say. There is nothing approaching, as you say, one dollar one vote."

    That's a matter of opinion. People in the working class -- especially those in ethnic minority groups -- feel especially non-empowered by the current neoliberal regime. It's clear that we have a "shade of gray" (since reality is _always_ that way). But the U.S. has shifted more and more to the one-dollar/one-vote system, because that's the way markets work and the U.S. has shifted further and further toward a market system (rather than a moderated market under popular control). Under the Bushwhackers, "privatization" has meant that markets rule even more than under Slick Willie.

    The _laissez-faire_ sheep want the economy and the polity to follow the one dollar/one vote model. Mostly, I was talking about that "ideal" rather than reality.

    By the way, what's wrong with Groucho, Harpo, or Chico? They were great men. I can see why you would reject Zeppo. I do too.

    "Do rich people have more influence and power than poor people? Of course they do. No one denies it. But it’s silly to say that the rich control everything; they don’t. They always have to watch out for populist demagogues, especially in a liberal democracy."

    Of course the rich don't control everything. There are still labor unions and community groups (including churches) which have some countervailing power. But the rich control the system to the extent that the George Mason ideals of markets über alles rules.

    "And it’s silly to deny that government has any power but coercion."

    The power of any government beyond that of a Mobutu or a Mugabe involves not just raw power (coercion) but also its _legitimacy_ (moral authority) among the people. After 9/11, the government could have mobilized the people of the US to do almost anything, based totally on its "soft power" (legitimacy). It didn't have to use hard power(water-boarding, rendition, dropping habeas corpus, etc.) in order to fight terrorism, but of course it did. The rest is history.

    Ironically, the _laissez-faire_ that the sheep are pushing for undermines the legitimacy of the state except for those with a lot of money. That leaves the state as _nothing but_ concentrated coercion from the point of view of those without money. So the state ends up being exactly the way the _laissez faire_ types think it is right now. It's like they want a self-fulfilling prophecy to occur!

    "Even the instances you cite of the government 'providing freedom' are really instances of coercion used to promote or protect a freedom. Taxes are not optional."

    I didn't deny that taxes were a case of coercion. Rather, my point was (1) that non-state entities also engage in coercion -- imposing non-optional costs on others -- and (2) the state has a positive side, providing what we economists call "public goods" and the like. The latter provision, if done well, is linked up with the state's popular legitimacy.
    JD

  • heterodox to the core
  • Posted by Susan Feiner on October 5, 2007 at 6:00am EDT
  • Thanks JD for wrestling with Goliath. For the Goliaths out there ... there was a terrific conference last summer at UUtah, on pluralism in economics. Good thing few of you were there. Would have defeated the purpose.

    Pluralism: there are a range of ways to conduct economic analysis, a variety of "first propositions," and equally as important, a number of positions from which to critique the pre-digested, well masticated truths of the textbooks.

    Evidence of the monolith that has become economics is the dissapearance of courses in the history of economic ideas from the vast majority of PhD programs. (this is easily verified ... just check out the grad course listings for the "top 20" programs, and note that maybe 2 require history of thought, and not too many more even offer it!)

    Ignorant of history doomed to repeat it.

    boring. I'm signing off.

    Susan

  • Posted by nordsieck , response to JD on October 6, 2007 at 4:50pm EDT
  • The problem with your theory is that big business is actually a relatively small part of the economy as a whole. In other words, as a business grows its political influence grows as a super-linear rate. When combined with the inherent capture-ability of government processes, even in the absence of any business at all (e.g. USSR), eliminating government would serve to decrease the undue power that big business which successfully captures government processes holds.

    The other approach - regulating the market - is inherently flawed. Because government is captured by big business already, any regulations that are created will only serve to magnify big business's interests to the detriment of the market as a whole.

  • Posted by G at University of Florida on October 6, 2007 at 5:35pm EDT
  • Jim Devine,

    What you are talking about is the defensive use of force. No one would ever claim that the defensive use of force by government (or anyone else) is a bad thing. Pollution is coercion, and people have the right to defend themselves against it.

    Democracy is certainly useful for arriving at some decisions, but most of the time it is NOT useful for regulating a market. Why should people who eat Corn Flakes be able to vote on laws which effect eaters of Lucky Charms? Thats an externality if I've ever heard of one.

    The degree at which Stiglitz creates a straw-man out of markets is amazing. At the same time, he fantasizes about a government that seems to be able to arrive at the best decisions possible. Too often, I think economists forget that government legislation follows a process. Laws are the result of government processes, just as goods and services are the results of market processes.

    Someone mentioned bank failures causing externalities of a recession. Thats a valid point, since the shrinking of the money supply impacts everyone in the economy. Some Austrian school economists have written on this quite a bit, and how the existence of those externalities leads to bubbles. But I think its important to remember that our banking system is not the product of a free market, but rather the product of government processes. With that in mind, are the systemic problems associated with fractional reserve banking a market failure, or a government failure?

  • Posted by Jim Devine on October 6, 2007 at 8:55pm EDT
  • nordsieck writes:
    The problem with your theory [whose?] is that big business is actually a relatively small part of the economy as a whole. In other words, as a business grows its political influence grows as a super-linear rate. When combined with the inherent capture-ability of government processes, even in the absence of any business at all (e.g. USSR), eliminating government would serve to decrease the undue power that big business which successfully captures government processes holds.

    The other approach — regulating the market — is inherently flawed. Because government is captured by big business already, any regulations that are created will only serve to magnify big business’s interests to the detriment of the market as a whole.

    me: Though there is some fuzziness, I think a agree with this. The whole business- government complex must be replace by democracy.
    JD

  • G writes
  • Posted by Jim Devine on October 6, 2007 at 8:55pm EDT
  • G writes:
    "What you are talking about is the defensive use of force. No one would ever claim that the defensive use of force by government (or anyone else) is a bad thing. Pollution is coercion, and people have the right to defend themselves against it."

    Right. People have the right to defend themselves against both government and business, especially since they usually work hand-in-glove.

    "Democracy is certainly useful for arriving at some decisions, but most of the time it is NOT useful for regulating a market. Why should people who eat Corn Flakes be able to vote on laws which effect eaters of Lucky Charms? Thats an externality if I’ve ever heard of one."

    Democracy should be used to decide what kinds of decisions are individualized enough that they don't affect others' happiness (like eating cornflakes) and when they aren't. That divides market decisions from collective decisions. Democracy does not just mean majority rule; it also involves individual rights. (For example, the existing property rights system is backed by the power of the state. At least officially, it is backed by the people in a democratic way. Of course, property-owners are very effective as skewing the political system to help themselves.)

    In fact, your argument fits mine: government actions that impose taxes, regulations, etc. are _exactly like_ negative externalities coming from business. Both should be controlled by democratic means.

    "... Someone mentioned bank failures causing externalities of a recession. Thats a valid point, since the shrinking of the money supply impacts everyone in the economy. Some Austrian school economists have written on this quite a bit, and how the existence of those externalities leads to bubbles. But I think its important to remember that our banking system is not the product of a free market, but rather the product of government processes. With that in mind, are the systemic problems associated with fractional reserve banking a market failure, or a government failure?"

    It's _both_. I don't see why we have to choose. Unless you like the gold standard (which rewards South Africa in a big way and is very inflexible), our monetary and financial system is inherently governmental in nature. As currently set up (with the Fed being "captured" (or created) by private banks), it is also private in nature.
    JD