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Student, Interrupted

October 15, 2007

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Jill Manges guesses that if she'd suffered an epileptic seizure that day in class, she'd still be enrolled at Eastern Illinois University. But Manges, who has post-traumatic stress disorder, instead suffered a flashback during French history that led her to shout and sob uncontrollably.

“I can’t deny the fact that what happened was disruptive,” says Manges, who was sentenced to a year-long suspension by the university judicial board last month for violating two sections of the student conduct code barring the disruption of university functions and the academic environment in particular (see standards Id. and IVa. of this document).

“But I wonder if they would do this to someone who had an epileptic seizure in class or had a hangover in class or had an asthma attack, because that’s disruptive too.”

In a letter to Manges dated September 17, Eastern Illinois' assistant director of judicial affairs writes that given Manges' admission that she violated the two code of conduct standards prohibiting disruptive behavior during the September 5 "incident" (in other words, the in-class flashback), and "the seriousness with which the board viewed this incident, it is their recommendation that you be suspended from the university, effective immediately, for a minimum of an academic year through the Spring Semester, 2008, during which you would be prohibited from being on the campus without prior permission of the vice president for student affairs or his designee."

"This was a very difficult decision for the board because they recognize that you have made progress in dealing with the situation but the board is concerned about your well-being as well as the well-being of the greater EIU community. Therefore, the board encourages you to seek a medical withdrawal from the university," the letter continues, indicating that should that be Manges' choice, the board would not submit its suspension recommendation to campus leadership.

"In consequence, as a condition of your readmission to the university," the letter says, "you will need to provide documentation as evidence of your continued improvement and ability to keep your condition under control...."

Eastern Illinois officials won't comment on the specifics of Manges’ case. But speaking more broadly about how they handle mental health issues on campus, they stress that they always have students' best interests at heart.

"Since we're in such a rural area and some of our services are limited, we realize this may not be the best environment to really serve all students and we also recognize that sometimes a student may not be good in this environment for other students," says Heather Webb, director of judicial affairs at the university.

"Everything is done on a case-by-case basis," says Sandra Cox, the director of the counseling center. "Usually when information goes out there, [people] only have a very small portion of the truth, they have a very small portion of the behaviors that are brought up. They have a very small portion of the whole picture."

A Flashback and its Fall-Out

While enrolled at Eastern Illinois, Manges says she saw a private counselor off campus to deal with her diagnosis of PTSD -- a result of the sexual abuse she experienced from 1999 through 2000, when someone she knew not only abused her but also collected money from other men who did the same.

She was sitting in French history class September 5 when she could feel a flashback coming. Trying to leave but unable to exit the room in time, she collapsed before reaching the hallway.

“I don’t remember what happened because I was disassociating, but what witnesses said, what my professor said, is that I started sobbing uncontrollably, shouting, screaming. I was unresponsive; I was just lying on the floor," Manges says.

For the 10 to 15 minutes the episode lasted (of the 50-minute Wednesday afternoon class), the other 15 students "responded by sitting quietly and letting those of us who needed to act do so," says David Smith, the professor teaching the course. "I was extremely proud of how the students responded."

An ambulance came, and Manges declined to go to the hospital. She says it’s her understanding that at least two classes, including her French history class, were canceled, and one other was moved. There were six or seven classrooms on the hall, Smith says, and other professors came into the hallway to see what was going on.

Manges experiences such severe flashbacks – which she describes as akin to reliving a traumatizing event – once every two weeks or so. This was the first time one happened in a public academic setting at Eastern Illinois, she says, although she had a similar experience in a classroom at a community college that she previously attended (she transferred to Eastern Illinois in January of this year).

Upon returning to her room on September 5, Manges says she had two voice-mail messages waiting: one from judicial affairs, asking her to see a campus counselor, and one from the counseling center. Wanting to comply, she called the judicial affairs official, who met Manges to walk her over to the counseling center. The next day, Manges met with judicial affairs for a meeting, and her parents came to the university for a second meeting the day after. “Pretty much the gist of it was she told me how much of a disruption I had caused," Manges says.

Smith, who says that he was interviewed by several college officials about the incident, adds that in his conversations, judicial affairs staff focused on the flashback and the disruption of classes.

After a hearing September 13, Manges says she learned of the year-long suspension and her option to accept a medical withdrawal. She chose the latter so her family could get her tuition money back. Because of that, she says she can’t appeal the judicial board's decision. She’s living in her off-campus apartment, with plans to get a job, move to Boston in January and apply to finish college there. She was a junior history major and writing minor at Eastern Illinois. She has no plans to sue, saying she has neither the money nor the time.

Manges says she had come up on judicial affairs’ radar screen once previously, back in the spring when she spoke with a professor about experiencing suicidal thoughts. Manges says she was asked by college officials at that time to sign a behavioral contract agreeing to continue psychological treatment and keep up her academic coursework. Manges, who says she is not suicidal now, signed the contract.

She says that she upheld it and that the contract -- and the suicidal ideation she experienced in the spring -- did not come up during her judicial board hearing, which focused on the PTSD. She says that a letter from her therapist certifies that she is not a threat to herself or others.

And as Gary Pavela, author of Questions and Answers on College Student Suicide: A Law and Policy Perspective (2006: College Administration Publications), points out, “Research indicates that the odds that a student with suicidal ideation will actually commit suicide are 1,000 to one.” Several national reports following the 1999 Columbine High School shooting show that "it is inadvisable to create the impression that there is some kind of automatic, hair-trigger response to behavior that is viewed as disruptive or that falls outside of the area of disruptive into suicidal ideation," Pavela says, as the perception of harsh penalties can prevent students from seeking help.

“I don’t know what we can do except to make students aware that this is happening at the campus,” says Manges, who describes a general lack of awareness of mental health issues. “Honestly, because there’s not a lot of knowledge about mental illness, mental illness still has a huge stigma. People don’t understand it; people are scared of it because they don’t understand it."

"I was certainly disappointed at the outcome," says Smith, the professor of the French history course. He testified on Manges' behalf at the judicial board hearing.

"I certainly hoped that the student would be returning to the class, wanted her to come back" -- as, he says, did the other students in the course.

"I would hope that in the wake of terrible tragedies like at Virginia Tech that universities don't close themselves off as places where students can deal with difficult issues."

Psychology and Behavior

Eastern Illinois administrators say they make a concerted effort to help students deal with their problems while staying on campus. "Whenever possible, we try to work with the student to help them through their mental illness," says Webb, the judicial affairs director. She mentions the behavioral contracts cited by Manges as one example. A number of situations, including excessive alcohol consumption and suicidal ideation, could result in students being asked to sign a contract, which outline a set of expectations.

"It doesn't say we expect you not to experience mental health issues. We expect that," Cox of the counseling center says. "What we look for are changes in behavior."

Webb says that, whenever it's appropriate, she contacts the counseling center to see if a voluntary withdrawal might be an option for a student facing charges in the judicial system. In fact, when asked whether there were any inaccuracies in a student newspaper story outlining Manges' take on what happened, officials clarified a policy stipulating that when mental illness is impacting student behavior, the possibility of a voluntary medical withdrawal is always discussed prior to judicial proceedings.

"[What's been] put out there is that Eastern has suspended students based on mental health reasons. And that is incorrect," says Cox. But, she adds, “if there are long-term or consistent behaviors that are in violation of the student conduct code…then we have to look to see, do we have the services for someone who is struggling to a significant extent?”

While Cox says she processes a handful of voluntary withdrawals per week at the university of about 12,000 students, not once in her 11 years at Eastern Illinois has the university had to complete its mandatory withdrawal process for psychological reasons, reserved for the most extreme cases involving threats to the self or others and an inability to take care of oneself.

Yet, while Manges technically signed a voluntary withdrawal form, to her it might as well have been mandatory. "I was between a rock and a hard place. I chose a hard place," she says. "I've always been under the impression that people who take a medical withdrawal do it for themselves. For me, it was something that I was pretty much forced into doing."

The Bigger Picture

While what Manges says happened at Eastern Illinois may not be common, nor are such experiences uncommon, says Karen Bower, a senior staff attorney at the Judge David L. Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law. Bower says she routinely (more than once a month) gets calls from students who are forced to leave college for mental health reasons.

“They all feel very betrayed by the school and say that being out of school isn’t going to help them,” says Bower, who was involved with recent lawsuits on similar issues against George Washington University and Hunter College of the City University of New York that both ended in settlements.

“We have urged that schools not use disciplinary action for behavior that’s a result of mental illness,” Bower says -- echoing Professor Smith's sentiment that a judicial board hearing didn't seem like an appropriate venue for addressing his student's situation.

“I am concerned that judicial affairs as a body is designed to handle certain kinds of cases that this kind of event -- when someone is not operating in a voluntary manner -- they’re not well-equipped to deal with," says Smith.

In its model policy, the Bazelon Center recommends that involuntary leave only be used in a situation where an individualized assessment determines that a student is a direct threat to the self or others. Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, Bower adds, colleges are required to provide reasonable accommodations for students. That could mean, in this case, she says, waiving the rule about class disruptions for Manges, or mitigating any sentence.

“I think they think it’s objective, but discrimination based on conduct that’s the result of disability is the same as discrimination based on disability," Bower says. “The use of the disciplinary system as a whole is really a way of removing students from an environment instead of finding out what kinds of supports and services they need to stay in school and be successful."

Although college leaders say they have the students' interests at heart -- in addition to the interests of other students -- when advocating medical withdrawals, Manges says in her case, at least, the time off won't be helpful.

“Being in school is extremely important to me and it is part of the healing process. It is my way of reclaiming my life; it is my way of getting back what was stolen from me when I was younger,” says Manges.

“I can’t do anything right now. I can work, I can go to therapy, but I was going to therapy while I was in school.”

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Comments on Student, Interrupted

  • ADA?
  • Posted by Jonathan Dresner on October 15, 2007 at 6:10am EDT
  • I am not seeing, in this article, any mention of the Americans with Disabilities Act: a medical diagnosis should trigger "reasonable accomodation" requirements. I know the protections for psychological conditions aren't as strong as for physical/sensory impairments, but where was the compliance officer? Was there any discussion?

  • Posted by Peggy on October 15, 2007 at 8:45am EDT
  • This had to be a difficult decision. Reasonable accommodations does not mean you can allow them to be disruptive to the class or campus. Could they not have offered an online option to this student?

  • Disruption and Mental Illess
  • Posted by John K. Wilson at www.collegefreedom.org on October 15, 2007 at 10:00am EDT
  • I feared after Virginia Tech that universities would seek to avoid liability by getting rid of the mentally ill and even those who write fiction about violent events. It's hard to say if that's happened, but this case seems different. ADA requires a reasonable accommodation, but no college or workplace is required to accommodate someone whose illness causes such a substantial disruption to the regular work of others. The option of online learning (at EIU or another institution) makes it more reasonable to exclude a student from the classroom, even if it is sad to do.

  • Fair Game
  • Posted by business prof on October 15, 2007 at 10:00am EDT
  • This case is about potential legal liability for the University period. End of conversation. The prof wanted her back. Classmates wanted her back. But what would they know? Why ever would the University Judicial Board consider their input?

    We can't discriminate on race, religion, gender, national origin, physical disabilities but the one option that still seems to be readily available is mental health. Who are they trying to kid? It wasn't a difficult decision for the judicial board, it was a knee jerk reaction: just give the student her money back so she will go away quietly and we are off the hook. Interesting to see that the student may have gone away but not quietly. She is the one who now appears to be handling the situation intelligently by moving away and attending another institution while making those who forced her to do so help her to pay for it.

  • Too Strict
  • Posted by Rose on October 15, 2007 at 10:00am EDT
  • I can understand the University wanting to the adhere to the code of conduct, but they were far too strict and discriminatory of the student's situation. After all, the student was attempting to leave class to avoid the interuption. The student also has a pre-diagnosed psychological condition, to which there were no other reported incidents. If there had been a chronic pattern of class disruptions, I could why judicial affairs would need to get involved; but they didn't need to in this case.

    It should also be kept in mind that EIU is not that large compared to Illinois State University, Southern Illinois University, or the University of Illinois. I doubt that they can provide the kind of psychological support services that the student needs.

  • Posted by Greg on October 15, 2007 at 10:15am EDT
  • Do not assume that the student has self disclosed and was receiving accommodations for being a qualified student with a disability. Or that the diagnosis was indeed a disability under the ADA. Unfortunately lots of students with mental health issues do not self disclose and start the ADA/504 process.

  • A travesty
  • Posted by A professor on October 15, 2007 at 10:35am EDT
  • The speed with which Eastern Illinois handled this situation suggests a rushed overreaction in the wake of Virginia Tech.

  • Posted by P. Mullins on October 15, 2007 at 10:40am EDT
  • There is an ugly mental illness stigma in this country that is eroding the values of those suffering. Instead of compassion and care they are getting shunned and ostracized. Very poor and barbaric.

  • On the other hand...
  • Posted by Prof. Challenger on October 15, 2007 at 11:00am EDT
  • Several posters are clucking their tongues at EUI's alleged overreaction in the wake of Virginia Tech. But if this student's mental illness caused her to injure or kill a student on campus, the clucking tongues would be scolding the university for not having taken steps to address the dangers posed by such a student.

  • Student not a danger
  • Posted by Jane Hood , Dr. on October 15, 2007 at 12:20pm EDT
  • Given that the student is suffering from PTSD, has not made threats to others, and is judged not to be a danger to herself or others, the university has over reacted and is probably in violation of ADA. Removing her from class may even exacerbate her situation. She needs an outside focus while in recovery.

    If those around the student are taught how to handle the flashbacks, these events do not need to be disruptive, particularly since they will be rare.

    Some people suffering from PTSD after returning from war can be dangerous during flashbacks if they lose touch with reality, but this student's flashbacks do not seem to involve physical retaliation against her attackers.

  • Posted by Mary on October 15, 2007 at 1:40pm EDT
  • It doesn't have anything to do with whether resources are available to help the student. Tufts University does this to students, too, and they have plenty of resources. They do it even when students have their own resources. Check with YOUR institution. It's about potential liability and it's about being black and white. No shades of grey.

  • Hard to Believe
  • Posted by kgotthardt on October 15, 2007 at 1:40pm EDT
  • This is so sad. This poor student. Obviously, she was neither a threat to herself or to others. Obviously, the school did not even follow its own policy. Forcing her to leave on a disciplinary charge? I can't believe it.

    I also find it hard to believe that no matter how ignorant people are about mental illness, they don't know anything about PTSD. PTSD is so often in the media. It is almost as well known as depression and ADHD.

    If instructors and admin don't know anything about PTSD, perhaps they shouldn't be in the business of education. And if they DO know, it's time to start teaching students. Any student who has taken a general psych class or who has read a newspaper should know this anyway, but in case they haven't it IS the school's responsibility.

  • This disgusts me
  • Posted by Carter on October 15, 2007 at 2:05pm EDT
  • The people up and down the process at EIU should be ashamed of themselves. This is a public university that did nothing to help this student. Making someone sign a contract when they suspect/know that person has a mental disorder is beyond horrific. Nevermind the fact that such a contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on. And this nonsense about being too remote to provide services needs to stop. Where are the spending priorities at a public institution if not on the students? Quit defending these people. They did the wrong thing. Period.

  • No lawyer, no luck
  • Posted by Larry on October 15, 2007 at 2:10pm EDT
  • A lot of the problems the student has she brought upon herself by not hiring a lawyer. I know this sounds bad, but you people need to start lawyering up – and early.

    But, even under the ADA, a school doesn’t need to put up with screaming and sobbing. No caselaw or regulations hold that this is a reasonable accommodation. (I don’t really believe in mental illness, myself, but Congress does, and we must leave it at that.)

    Finally, despite all the rhetoric about compassion for people with mental illness, many consider it a bad idea to have people with mental problems in positions of responsibility. There is no way I would want to be treated by a doctor or a lawyer who might freak out at any moment.

  • Yes and no
  • Posted by ekw , HR Manager on October 15, 2007 at 2:10pm EDT
  • I appreciate the people quoting the ADA, but i think that you are forgetting thtah one of the essences of the ADA is that it has to be REASONABLE accommodation. Reasonable is defined as also not causing undue hardship upon the organization through compliance (i.e. a ramp for someone in a wheelchair is reasonable, a elevator to the second floor may not be). Being somewhat familiar with Easterns resources, it truly is NOT capable (within the definition of reasonable accommodation) of giving this student the help and environment she needs to not only be a successful student but to also recover from her trauma. It is a terrible situation for her, no argument. It is also a terrible decision for the school to have to make, that I am sure did not come easy OR as a “knee-jerk” reaction. It is what is best for HER

  • Posted by Ken on October 15, 2007 at 3:25pm EDT
  • I have not heard anyone address the possibility that her being dismissed for the year might be in her best interest. It sounds like she might be best served by getting some help for her condition so that she is better able to function in college. There is also the issue of how her disruptions took away time from class that those other students paid for. Their education matters, as does that of this young lady.

  • Posted by kgotthardt on October 15, 2007 at 3:25pm EDT
  • 1. Larry, students rarely can afford a lawyer....unless you are offering free services, that it.

    2. Accommodations: she could take classes online while she is in therapy off campus. She could do an independent study and meet with the professor once per week as she heals. Don't make excuses for the school. These people just didn't want to be bothered.

    3. Mental illness is no different from physical illness. For example, if epilepsy is so bad you have seizures on campus and could get hurt, then you should get the same (or similar) accommodations I mentioned in #2.

  • PTSD and Sexual Abuse
  • Posted by JC , analyst at texas on October 15, 2007 at 3:50pm EDT
  • There is absolutely no way that this university would win a lawsuit on this issue.

    The university administration does not have the right to decide "what is best" for this girl. As a former advocate for victims of child sexual assault, I can tell you that sexual abuse takes control AWAY from the victim and the best treatments allow the victim to REGAIN that control.

    Unfortunately, in this case, the university did the opposite. This is a very clear case of discrimination. This student was neither a harm to herself or others. Any medical emergency will disrupt a classroom...should we throw out all students who've dealt with a medical emergency in class, such as a seizure?

    The person who doesn't believe in mental illness might want to consider whether he is suffering from a common syndrome called intentional ignorance.

  • Ken
  • Posted by Ann Arc on October 15, 2007 at 3:55pm EDT
  • Ken, it was a single interruption. It didn't last as long as a fire drill. And, if you read the article, you'll see that the student was indeed getting help and had complied with the requests previously made by the university. You sound like a compassionate conservative.

  • Posted by JHB on October 15, 2007 at 3:55pm EDT
  • What if the student was bipolar and had an episode, would they have handled the incident the same way?

  • re:
  • Posted by ekw , HR Manager on October 15, 2007 at 4:05pm EDT
  • Accomidations: What if online classes are not available? What if the school has no existing system set up for such a thing (its more likely than you know)? Schools have to maintain a sertain class content to keep accredidation. What is the point of accomidating her to the point that her independant course of study no loner maintains accredidation? Im all for accomidation, its in my nature, but asking a organization to compleatly redesign a curriculum to maintain accredidation for a single student violates the concept of "reasonable accomidation."

  • Posted by jazz on October 15, 2007 at 4:05pm EDT
  • This situation sucks. I am very disappointed in Eastern which happens to be my alma mater.

  • Response to Larry
  • Posted by Melissa on October 15, 2007 at 4:20pm EDT
  • Gee, Larry, I haven't seen compassion for people with mental illnesses result in people with mental problems getting into positions of power.

    People with mental problem have been getting into positions of power for centuries.

    Also, mental illnesses and mental problems that might cause someone to freak out at any moment are not the same thing. And your not believing in mental illnesses doesn't make them any less real.

    I've never been moved to post a comment on this site, but your poorly-informed, intolerant point of view irked me so much that I couldn't ignore it. I respect your right to your own opinion, but am disappointed to see how some people view mental illnesses. Thank you for helping to educate me about how widespread ignorance still is.

  • Student Affairs Villians
  • Posted by Dave on October 15, 2007 at 5:15pm EDT
  • Of course, I didn't see people mentioning reasonable accommodations affecting other students. While putting a ramp in really doesn't affect a student that can take the stairs right next to the ramp, yelling and screaming in class halts the class for a third of the class period. Plus, there may be other incidents or information this article didn't report; per the article, she does have an episode every 2 weeks or so. Students may have said they wanted her back, but is that the consensus? And I don't think many students would have the courage to say otherwise and appear harsh or unsympathetic.

    I'll be honest, it's a bummer of a decision. But I think there is a lot of preconceptions that student affairs professionals are only looking out for themselves or the institution. Like any other social-welfare field, student affairs professionals try to to what is good for students, but there are ethical considerations that can be argued in either way. I will put trust in the Eastern Illinois administration and say that that this was NOT an easy decision for them. I think they made the best decision, by their information and values, for their students, including Jill.

  • Universities are not in-patient care facilities
  • Posted by English Bob on October 15, 2007 at 5:15pm EDT
  • The first priority of any university is to provide a safe, secure, and peaceful environment for students to receive an education--not to treat mental illness or re-arrange the entire structure of the institution (offering special on-line courses, one-on-one instruction, counseling and follow-up, etc.) to accommodate every student with a medical problem. Epileptic seizures and asthma attacks can be controlled with medication, and students are responsible for taking them. The same goes for those with mental disorders. These students are adults who are responsible for their own health-care and public behavior. The university can provide a counseling center and advise long-term care, but that's about it--beyond that, it's the student's responsibility. If a student has such severe problems that they're unable to attend classes without causing a disturbance, then they need to leave school, get help, and not return until they've gotten the condition under control. It's neither fair nor safe for other students and faculty to be forced to become part of one student's "therapeutic process."

    These claims that she was "no threat to other students" are nonsense. A person having a traumatic flashback is, in fact, a potential threat to herself and others. What's more, it makes her concentration and other people's teaching and learning impossible (that's not an irrelevant concern--it's the central concern of a school). Faculty aren't trained to provide emergency care, psychological counseling, or specialized education for those with serious emotional disorders. Believe me, we have enough to deal with just counseling the average stressed-out, depressed, or un-focused student. Should we now comb through our course materials for possible "triggers"? Set aside special hours to counsel and provide separate instruction for those unable to attend classes? Take a summer course in emergency psychiatry? Some faculty may be ready and willing to accommodate such needs, but as a matter of policy, the university should do just what they did in this case.

    Sympathy with the sufferer does not imply that all special needs can and should be met. Similarly, taking action to secure a peaceful classroom environment isn't a sign of heartless penny-pinching--it's their responsibility.

  • insults -- and why the school would win
  • Posted by Larry on October 15, 2007 at 6:10pm EDT
  • I would like to point out that I have been insulted by no less than two women here simply because I do not believe in mental illness. This doesn’t stop me from advancing legal positions involving the law of mental illness. I simply do not internalize the belief that people can be mentally ill. Therefore, when it comes to the actions of myself and people close to me, I hold ourselves to be personally responsible for everything we do.

    If you want to call me “ignorant” or whatever, go ahead.

    JC and KRO, The University was operating well within the ADA. Even though certain kinds of mental illnesses fall within the ADA, “online” classes are not a “reasonable accommodation” for people seeking a degree at a brick-and-mortar institution. (Also, the since the student didn’t provide the right kinds of notice to the school, this case could even be more easily disposed of.)

  • Notice
  • Posted by Terri on October 15, 2007 at 11:00pm EDT
  • Acutally, Larry, the student DID give the school a notice that she had this disorder. The original article, published by the Daily Eastern News, clearly stated that she told the school 6 months before attending that she had PTSD.

  • cell phones
  • Posted by Stephanie on October 16, 2007 at 5:30am EDT
  • So I guess Eastern must also suspend people whose cell phones ring in class. That's certainly a disruption, and one that those people could actually control, unlike a victim of sexual assault who suffers from PTSD.

    Oh, and what about people who come in late? That's a disruption. And sometimes people make pointless comments that certainly interrupt the lecturer and my concentration, detracting from what I learn in class.

  • Larry's comments & "mental illness"
  • Posted by Kathy on October 16, 2007 at 5:35am EDT
  • Larry states he doesn't believe in "mental illness." In a twisted kind of way, he may be -- inadvertently! -- accurate: PTSD is not, strictly speaking, "mental." It's actually a *physiological* response to overwhelming threat. Other mammals deprived of the opportunity to process the body's reactions to sever threat also develop PTSD. There are brain scans & brain research to show such. PTSD could, strictly speaking, be considered a neurological illness, since it is related to repetitive uncontrolled neuron-firing.

    *AND* the school acted more from ignorant prejudice than from compassion -- in my opinion.

  • Online classes?? Why?!!
  • Posted by Sandra on October 16, 2007 at 10:55am EDT
  • Why should she be pushed into online classes?! Is she contagious?!! I am absolutely disgusted by the school's reaction and some of the comments in this blog! This girl has been tramatized enough and now the school wants to add to it! Unreal! What if it was an epileptic fit - would she be barred. What about people coming back from Iraq - is this how we will treat them. Where is the compassion and understanding? The students had it and so did the professor. Who complained?? This makes me sick. How many times does this girl have to be made to feel worthless and discarded?

  • PTSD Multiplier
  • Posted by Joe Hagy on October 16, 2007 at 3:30pm EDT
  • As the troops return home from Iraq the number of Military veterans and active National Guard soldiers with PTSD in our colleges will increase. What will we do then? Cast them out if they have a flashback? Get rid of them because they might be "dangerous"(after all you don't want a trained and practiced killer on campuse do you with a mental condition)? Deny that they have any "mental disease" at all? Now is the time for national level organizations involved in this area to councel and advise their memebers. This current case is an ice cube in a sea of iceburgs.

  • Posted by Dan Thetheologianscafe on October 16, 2007 at 3:55pm EDT
  • I think what we are seeing is an overreaction by colleges and universities that have not yet come to terms with how to deal with mental health issues.

  • Expell ALL cell phone users? YES YES YES
  • Posted by stm60 on October 16, 2007 at 6:25pm EDT
  • Stephanie,

    Not sure if you are still reading here, but I agree with your suggestion about expelling students whose phone rings in class. I don't know about you but I found that very disruptive. If a student could not or would not stop that noise, I would not hesistate to bounce him or her were that within my means. The same with cronically late without an excuse.

    Ah.... your posting got my hopes up!!!!

    BTW, Judges routinely find lawyers in contempt when their phones ring during a trial. I can only dock a half grade. Which I have done and will continue to do.

  • Unreasonable accommodations
  • Posted by English Bob on October 16, 2007 at 6:25pm EDT
  • Why do many of you continue to make inaccurate comparisons between a PTSD "flashback" that involves screaming, convulsions, uncontrollable weeping, emergency medical and pschological care, etc. and such mundane "disturbances" as ashma, tardiness, and cell-phones? There is no comparison in terms of its effect on the teachers, students, and classroom environment. Even an epileptic fit is a rare and controllable occurrence, not something that happens "every couple of weeks" without any apparent treatment or medication available. Many of you continue to insist that this it is somehow the moral obligation of faculty, students, and administrators to simply "deal with it," as if it's all in a day's business. It's not--this kind of severe emotional disorder requires professional treatment and, if necessary, time off from school to "deal with." The classroom isn't an appropriate place to work out deep psychiatric problems. No one has said that they didn't understand the problem or have sympathy. No one has said that she's banned indefinitely from attending classes. Instead, the school made the very reasonable decision that she can return only when she's stable and ready for the stress of college (an already stressful environment even without this condition). Having breakdowns every couple of weeks is definitely NOT stable. She shouldn't be in school, period.

  • Dear EnglishBob
  • Posted by Stephanie on October 17, 2007 at 3:15am EDT
  • Here is the article published by her school newspaper:
    Wilson, who has been a counselor for 13 years and has worked specifically in sexual assault for five years, said a medical withdrawal would not help the recovery of a sexual assault victim with PTSD who is getting by academically....'Part of what their treatment has involved is identifying things that will add meaning to their lives, and usually school is one of those things," Wilson said. "(School is) maybe one of the reasons why they keep working on their symptoms because getting the degree is really important to them.'"

    Further, "Wilson said taking away school from a sexual assault victim with PTSD is a detriment to that student. 'When that gets taken away, people usually struggle and get worse,' Wilson said."

    She doesn't want to leave, and the director of the sexual assault center thinks that school might be the best place for her. Arguing that the school is acting in her interest is clearly an groundless argument. Let's not pretend otherwise.

    Individuals who experienced the event seem to disagree with the implication that they were upset by seeing it. "Nick Tippet, a senior history major, also was in the class. 'I would not say anyone was disturbed by this incident,' Tippet said. 'We were all just concerned about her, and those people who knew her tried to give us updates about how she was.'" For being a senior at EIU, I'd say that disrupting ONE CLASS with her PTSD is not grounds for dismissing her. One class of hundreds she has attended. They have no reason to think this is any more than an isolated incident, since for the previous three years she's been attending classes AND had PTSD but hasn't disrupted class.

    So if it would be a detriment for her to make her leave, and her classmates also want her to stay, then it must be completely in the school's perceived interest that they make her leave. And that's not unreasonable, except that I don't see how it's in their interest. She's not demonstrated that she's a threat to herself or others. She's been suffering for years and there's no mention of prior complaint.

    As a student, I'm offended that you think that a learning environment should be completely sanitary and free of outside emotion or real human experience. Let's face it, we all bring our life experiences to the classroom. I know the state of the world isn't pretty, and though it may upset me to see someone with PTSD have a flaskback, I'd be more upset by the people that caused it than the fact that she had it (I might even be motivated to go out in the world and work to change it!). And I'd be yet more upset to think that you want to remove her because you think I can't handle seeing real life.

    If a sufferer of PTSD isn't isn't fit to be a student, what IS she fit to be? I doubt that anyone who thinks an individual who can't be in the classroom ought to hold a job instead. Can she leave the house, or would you be to traumatized to see her have a flashback in a grocery store? Should she sit in her house, sequestered away, until she's mentally healthy enough for you? Should we ban from public life anyone with a mental illness that we're not comfortable seeing?

    She seems to be handling what happened to her with amazing fortitude. She was trafficked for sex, repeatedly raped, and tortured as a child. Despite having a breakdown every couple of weeks, this was THE FIRST that happened in such a manner that the university's attention was caught, and even then, she was on her way out the door because she knew it was coming. After hundreds of classes, she disrupted a single one. She is making what life she can while dealing with atrocities unimaginable to you or me. It's unjust and impractical to ask her to leave that life until she is "stable."

    Don't you think that requiring the label "stable" is hopping on a slippery slope, considering how many people you'd kick out of school by using it?

  • Dealing With It
  • Posted by Ann Arc on October 17, 2007 at 6:00am EDT
  • English Bob, as someone noted above, we had better learn to "deal with it" because we are about to have hundreds of PTSD cases wsalking the halls of academe in the coming years thanks to the Iraq War. Perhaps we should just lock them all up in the squalid Walter Reed, or even better, deny them benefits because all togehter by claiming, as the military has been doing, that they had "pre-existing personality disorders." Maybe you could lobby for a law -- you could call it the Anti-GI Bill. Anything to preserve your pristine & undisturbed campus environment. Universities serve society & our society has sponsored a war that will bring us a lot of "mental cases" & though I know Larry doesn't think such illnesses exist, we are all going to have to "deal with it." Their metaphysical existence is irrelevant & your fantastical vision of the classroom as somehow off limits to the real world is equally delusional.

    Note: I know the student in the story is not a veteran, but her case highlights an issue that is not going to go away.

  • Posted by kgotthardt on October 17, 2007 at 7:15am EDT
  • Sandra, sorry. I didn't have the whole story before I suggested online classes. Apparently, the student had been attending for a long time without incident. My suggestions were only for those who feel they can't leave the house without having a breakdown, which can be very painful and get in the way of learning.

    If this has been her only incident, she is not a threat to herself and others, she has a lifetime of sexual abuse behind her...she needs to stay. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

    Again, my apologies. I was only going by the facts in the story and my personal experiences.

  • Sympathy trumps Reason
  • Posted by English Bob on October 17, 2007 at 8:45am EDT
  • Dear Stephanie

    You're still operating under the assumption that the "best interests of the student" are the primary concern here, rather than the interests of the school, the other students, and those instructors who have to "deal with" the disruptions. That's sympathy and/or politics talking, not a realistic understanding of the function of a university classroom. Being told that you can't attend classes until your medical condition is under control isn't equivalent to being condemned or ostracized from society--it's equivalent to taking time off from work to deal with personal issues that affect your job. College isn't an entitlement like going to the grocery store, it's an opportunity for those who are ready to handle the stress and discipline needed to do the work. It's irrelevant that some students and teachers don't feel that she's a disruption--the university has to act in the interest of ALL the students and teachers on campus, regardless of how sympathetic they feel towards this student. No one's asking for "pristine" and perfect classroom environment--just one that's functional and not in danger of uncontrollable outbursts every week or two. That's not an unreasonable expectation.

    The fact that PTSD may be on the rise in the future doesn't, in any way, change my position on this. You all are suggesting that the university classroom is the place to work out larger social and medical dilemmas--that's only true in the sense that the classroom is a place to discuss and learn about such things, not a testing-ground for whether or not mental-illness can be "tolerated" by society. The classroom is not a public arena--it's a professional setting.

  • This does not seem to be an isolated incident...
  • Posted by EIU Professor on October 17, 2007 at 12:45pm EDT
  • There were several letters to the editor in the Daily Eastern News after the original article on Jill Manges’ case was published. The letters to the editor indicated that the Judicial Board at EIU has a track record in dealing with sexual assault victims in a manner that is very troubling to me as a professor at this institution.

    For those of you who are not on campus, I would like to underscore how quickly this dismissal happened as well as the forced choice the student was given. The student was in front of the judicial board within a week of the incident, asked to appeal with in a week of the decision OR receive a medical leave (which included a reimbursement of her tuition). The original ruling of a suspension would have left a troubling mark on Jill’s record if she chose to continue her education elsewhere. She was placed in a position to fight the ignorant assumptions the university seems to have about PTSD with the likelihood of loosing the appeal and the consequence of loosing thousands of dollars OR take a medical withdraw (receiving her tuition money and no troubling blemish on the record). It also seemed very clear to me at the moment she was deciding to appeal the Judicial Board decision, the university was not interested in rethinking their original judgment, leaving the option to fight the decision a bit hopeless.

    Why was disciplinary action taken for behavior that is a result of mental illness? Especially when there is no evidence that Jill was potentially harmful to herself or others as well as no indication of secondary trauma experienced by her fellow students?

    My father was in Vietnam; I have lived with PTSD all my life. I currently have students in my class, recently back from Iraq who are struggling with PTSD and I don't see this problem going away anytime soon. I am concerned, very concerned that institutions of higher learning across the United States need to reconsider and meditate thoughtfully about how issues of mental illness impact the classroom environment. We should not be sending people away, out of sight, so that it is not our problem anymore. These students should not be made invisible. What happened to Jill and the experience of her flashback is not even remotely close to what happened at Virginia Tech. Students with mental illnesses should not be lumped together and labeled a threat.

    Jill is a smart and ambitious woman who would like to get her PhD someday. She has worked very hard to pull the pieces of her life together to make something better for herself. And I believe the university has failed to look after her best interests or the best interests of her fellow students who will have to go out in the world and interact with people who suffer from PTSD in their workplace, in their community and in their family.

  • "Not believe" in mental illness??
  • Posted by Scout on October 17, 2007 at 2:20pm EDT
  • How can someone not believe in mental illness? That's just as absurd as not believing in influenza, or socks. Get a grip, dude. Mental illness exists. Just because you don't want to accept it doesn't mean it's not there. Sheesh!

  • Every Two Weeks?
  • Posted by Dominick on October 18, 2007 at 10:40am EDT
  • I must say that I thought that Eastern was out of line until I read the paragraph that the student suffers a flashback every two weeks or so. While this may have been the first flashback she experienced during a class, how many has she experienced in her residence hallor other parts of campus?

    The fact of the matter is that we don't have all the information about this case. Also, this was only the beginning of her second semester at Eastern -- not her fourth year as another person mentioned.

  • Posted by Outraged Special Ed. Teacher on October 18, 2007 at 7:50pm EDT
  • I teach in a public high school very close to Eastern Illinois University. As a result of this, I've had EIU students in my classroom for the past 15 years. Also, because I teach special education, some, not all, but some of my students struggle with mental illness. If EIU administration believes it is so harmful to witness disruptive behavior (like a flashback) that is caused by mental illness, if they really believe it is somehow dangerous for the witness to have to experience this, why do they continue to send so many EIU practicum students into my classroom? Really, some of my students sometimes struggle with disruptive behaviors. If this causes "secondary trauma", how does EIU justify sending their students into that enviromnent? And, why, when this is witnessed off EIU's campus at a practicum sight, is it considered an educational experience, but when it happens on their campus it is considered inexcusable?

    Second, this flashback was disruptive to the learning environment so it can not be allowed. Well, yes, I'm certain it was. I'd like to point out, however, that from the standpoint of a teacher near the university, having EIU students in and out of my classroom all day is also disruptive, especially to those student with mental illness. It is difficult to concentrate when you have ADD/ADHD (or many other mental illnesses) and having college student come in and go out, ask questions and ask for signatures during class is distracting. Still, they are expected to tolerate this. It is difficult for my students with autism to adjust to different teachers with different teaching styles. Still, they are expected to do this because, being so close to the university, we need to provide learning opportunities for EIU students wanting to become teachers.
    Sometimes, these disruptions and changes make it more difficult for the students with mental illness to control their behavior. Still, EIU students need this experience and it is good for our students to learn to tolerate disruptions in their environment. It is interesting that Eastern Illinois University is willing to use people with mental illness when it serves their purposes, but not toleate them on their campus. I find that very offensive.

  • Posted by Parent on October 18, 2007 at 7:50pm EDT
  • Hey, here's an idea...

    Perhaps all the parents of children with mental illness in public schools anywhere near Eastern Illinois University should ban together and refuse to allow their children to be used by a universtiy that shows so little compassion for people with mental illness.

    What would happen then? How could Eastern continue to maintain their reputation for turning out good teachers, especially special ed. teachers,if they didn't have our children to work with?

    I think I'd feel differently if it could be shown that Jill was in anyway dangerous or even purposely attempting to disrupt the class, but she wasn't. She was attempting to leave so she would not be a disruption. The speed with which EIU proceeded to force her out is proof to me that they just don't want to have to deal with the issue of mental illness. Too bad, it's here.

    As the parent of a child diagnosed with a disability, I no longer want to let them use my child to train their teachers.

    With confidentiality laws there has to be a way to stop them from working with our children. Perhaps, united, parents of children with mental illnesses as well as other disabilities, could send EIU a message.

  • EIU places blame
  • Posted by Jayne on October 19, 2007 at 2:50pm EDT
  • Who is the victim here? By forcing the student out, EIU basically told her that it was her fault for being sexually abused. EIU also sent the message to the student body that the status quo does not include people in recovery. This is a good example of a community not wanting to take on the task of aiding an individual in need.

  • Posted by James on October 20, 2007 at 10:50am EDT
  • Larry-

    If you are going to promote yourself as "advancing legal thought" about the ADA and its protections for students with mental illness, I recommend that you first familiarize yourself with the law and cases interpreting it. Whether or not the student chose to disclose her mental illness and whether or not her mental illness is in fact a "disability" as defined by the ADA is entirely irrelevant. All that is required to invoke the protections of the ADA is that the university regarded the student as having a disability (an impairment that substantially limits a major life activity) which clearly the university did when they decided that she was substantially limited and therefore unable to continue in her major life activity of learning. Further, I take issue with your unfounded and subjective belief that an online class (or any other accomodation) would be per se unreasonable. The reasonable accomodation provision is limited not by your subjectivity, but by the fundamental alteration defense. The school would be required to provide such reasonable accomodations unless those accomodations forced a fundamental alteration to the university's services provided (i.e. it hindered their ability to provide the services it provides because it is spending all of its money on one student). Clearly this would not be the case with an online course. I say all this not to further incite you, Larry, or to feed into your apparent need for negative affirmation, but to clarify your glaringly wrong attempts at defining the ADA for those here actually interested in educating themselves who may be taking some or any of what you have said as true or accurate.

  • Concerned Parent
  • Posted by Local Parent on October 26, 2007 at 12:55pm EDT
  • Parent,

    I agree with your philosophy regarding local parents of children with mental illnesses banding together, although I disagree with the idea of refusing to allow EIU students in local classrooms. I am writing a letter to President Perry and the Board of Trustees, and I encourage anyone interested in this issue to do the same. From there, I will continue to lend my support to this issue in whatever way I can.

    I am an alumnus and employee of EIU, and the mother of a child with a mental disorder. I am very proud of my son - he faces so many challenges, and works so hard to overcome them. He has lofty ambitions, and I am confident that he will be able to acheive them. However, his determination, self-discipline, and hard work will not be enough. He will need the understanding and tolerance of his communities as he progresses through life. There will be times he will falter, because he has an illness. However, he is quite capable of being a very productive member of our society.

    Life is challenging enough when one has a mental illness. To compound it, there is so much stigma in our society. Mental illness is an illness like any other, but because it is so unpredictable and difficult to understand, the University - like so many other people and institutions - made a blind and hasty judgment based on fear. Additionally, Mental illness is not covered by insurance companies in the same manner that "regular" illnesses are, and neither are the necessary medications. In addition to making treatment less accessible, it perpetuates the stigma, or in Larry's case, the argument that mental illness does not exist. Stigma, fear, denial, rejection - these are the reasons why we now know who Seung-Hui Cho was. Granted, Cho was so ill by the time he entered VT that his situation was beyond repair. However, the cultural stigma he faced (at home), coupled with our own (U.S.) attutudes and policies contributed greatly to that awful event. If anything should be learned from that Cho's destruction, it is that mentally ill people cannot be swept under the rug, as Cho was - and as Manges has been now. In Cho's case, he was indeed a danger (this was known prior to the massacre), and should have been removed from society and forcibly placed in in-patient care. In Manges' case, the opposite should occur. She is clearly not a danger, and has been proactive in her treatment. Expelling her is derailing her recovery. It is a damn shame.

    Eastern Illinois University has the opportunity to start to change the way mental illness is viewed in our society. I hope to see more time and individual attention paid to those students who are struggling to fit in to our society despite their illnesses. I hope to see Jill Manges back on our campus soon. She certainly deserves to be.

    Well, that's enough of my rant, I have to log off and take my state-mandated university employee ethics training.

  • Another student comes forward
  • Posted by Patricia on November 27, 2007 at 9:55pm EST
  • www.dennews.com/media/storage/paper309/news/2007/11/27/News/Misplaced.Trust-3116287.shtml?reffeature=htmlemailedition
    www.dennews.com/media/storage/paper309/news/2007/11/27/News/Student.Claims.Sexual.Assault.Case.Mishandled-3116260.shtml

  • my feelings
  • Posted by observer on February 10, 2008 at 12:25pm EST
  • I was just made aware of this article today so I would be suprised if anyone even knows I'm posting (due to the age of the article)but here goes...

    1) I think the school should have taken more than 24 hours to hold a hearing and more than a few hours to make a decision. I'm not saying forever but at least a few days. In the meantime she could have been barred from class.

    2) I would be VERY suprised if the school did not offer online classes considering it is a state school as opposed to a small private college. To exclude her from this option is over doing it.

    3) I am confused as to why they had to cancel classes later in the day?

    4) My heart goes out to this young lady.