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Legal Education at a Distance

October 31, 2007

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As online education has become more and more popular, law schools have largely been on the sidelines. The American Bar Association will not accredit distance programs, and has strict limits on the use of distance education in traditional programs.

On Tuesday, however, the online only Concord School of Law -- which has managed to grow without ABA recognition -- announced a merger with Kaplan University. In terms of corporate ownership, this isn't much of a change -- both Concord and Kaplan are divisions of Kaplan Inc., a major player in for-profit higher education. But because Kaplan University is regionally accredited (which Concord is not), the merger will make Concord students eligible for federal student loans and to defer repaying their past student loans when enrolled. These are seen as advances for Concord -- whose officials say that they believe law school's efforts will eventually change attitudes about distance legal education.

While the ABA has not changed its rules, it has quietly approved an unusual variance from its procedures to allow the Penn State Dickinson School of Law to offer many more courses at a distance than ABA rules permit. While the effort relates in part to particular characteristics of the Penn State program (which makes use of two physical campuses), the ABA waiver represents the broadest experiment to date in the association giving its blessing to the extensive use of distance education.

Concord and Kaplan

Barry Currier, dean of Concord, said that the link to Kaplan and its accreditation would be helpful in a number of ways -- some of them having nothing to do with federal aid programs. "Additional credibility and recognition" come from regional accreditation, he said, and that helps the law school.

Only California, where Concord is based, allows Concord graduates to take the bar exam automatically -- other states generally require ABA recognition of a student's law school. (Many Concord graduates are seeking careers in which a law degree helps them, but for which they don't plan to practice, so for them, lack of ABA accreditation isn't much of an issue.) In states outside of California, Currier said, graduates sometimes apply for waivers, and the regional accreditation should help.

While Concord students will be able to borrow through federal programs, Currier said he didn't see that as a huge advantage. Concord is less expensive than other private law schools ($36,000 will cover costs for a full degree), so he said he didn't believe the law school lost students because they could not take out federal loans. But he said that when professional students enroll in federally eligible institutions (as Concord will now be), they can defer payment on their undergraduate student loans -- and the law school has lost students for not being able to offer that option, he believes.

Currier said that it was "not our strategy to take on the ABA," but that he continued to believe that a ban on completely online programs was wrong. He noted that students arriving at law schools today "have experience with distance education" and that the concept has well tested methods and pedagogies. He also noted that even at the most traditional of in-person law schools, "professors are communicating with their students with e-mails and text messages" these days, not just face-to-face chats. While regional accreditation from the merger doesn't force an ABA change, Currier said it was all part of changing attitudes.

"We think that eventually people will understand that we're serious and have a rigorous program," he said.

Carl C. Monk, executive director of the Association of American Law Schools, said his group too was unlikely to let in an entirely online member. While the association's rules don't explicitly bar that, various rules would make it very difficult. Concord is permitted to pay the association a fee for various services, like interviewing at faculty recruitment conferences.

Monk said that he believed that there "is a role for some distance education in the law school curriculum," but he sees it restricted to specialized instruction or programs that might not be otherwise available. "An example I have often used is that not every law school can afford to have a faculty member who is an expert on Chinese law or South African law or whatever. If it is structured properly, having a professor at one school offer a course on the Chinese legal system to students other than those with whom that professor would come face to face with every day, that's a constructive use of online education."

That's also the kind that the ABA would permit. Its rules permit only four credit hours a semester of distance education, not more than 12 credit hours in total, and no distance education in the first year of law school. An ABA spokeswoman said that there were no current plans to change those rules, but that the ABA had last year approved a variance for Penn State.

The Penn State Experiment

Penn State's law school is the result of the university's merger with what until 2000 had been a freestanding law school in Carlisle, Pa., 90 miles away from Penn State's main campus, in University Park. From the time of the merger, a goal of the law school has been "to fully engage with the world class research institution and all the resources available at University Park," said Philip J. McConnaughay, dean of the law school.

The current arrangement, which required the special permission of the ABA, involves campuses of the law school in both Carlisle and University Park. Students are admitted to the law school and pick a campus at which to reside and take all of their first-year courses in person. Then, they are free to take courses offered at either campus -- with special classrooms designed for instruction by a professor to students at both campuses at the same time. Professors are also encouraged to spend some time during the first weeks of the semester at the campus that isn't their home base, so that they can personally meet all students.

Under the ABA waiver -- which has been granted for four years -- the Penn State students after their first year can exceed the four credit a semester and 12 credit total limit. In fact, a student at University Park could theoretically take entirely courses offered at Carlisle, although that's not likely. McConnaughay said that the ABA has been both "very cooperative" and "very exacting" in approving the variance, and he stressed that it was a "highly specific" exemption that applied only to Penn State's two campuses.

Penn State has no plans at this point, even if the experiment succeeds, to seek permission to offer the J.D. degree remotely. McConnaughay said that he believes in the value of an in-person first year -- and that Penn State didn't request an exemption from that rule because the law school believes that it is proper. "Our going-in assumption is that it's valuable for students to experience their first year of law school in the tried and true approach," he said.

At the same time, he said that what Penn State is doing will be "a good, controlled experiment for assessing the potential role of this variety of distance education." And in some law school programs aside from the J.D., he said he could imagine that in the future, law schools might want to explore ways "to reduce the residency requirement" for students from other countries or who are just far away, and that this experiment might point to ways to do that.

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Comments on Legal Education at a Distance

  • Online v. "blended"
  • Posted by Buzz on October 31, 2007 at 7:25am EDT
  • Concord is 100% online. The PSU pilot example is a "blend" of distance two-way video and some face-to-face. As to the latter, U of PHX has been doing "blended" education for nearly a decade.

    The real test of the PSU pilot example will be the bar exam-passage rate of conventional v. new.

  • Poor Larry
  • Posted by kgotthardt on October 31, 2007 at 8:45am EDT
  • This is going to give him an ulcer for sure. Distance ed AND for-profits teaching law? Will be curious to read what he has to say.

  • Posted by Larry on October 31, 2007 at 8:45am EDT
  • Students that attended Concord or any unaccredited law school are doing so at their peril. Sure, there are people on here that will bash the ABA, but the fact is that the ABA makes the rules. (While reasonable minds can differ over the ABA’s substantive requirements or their procedures, most of the largest criticisms come from people that don’t really care to discuss their specifics.) It may soothe one’s soul to tell potential law students to “break” the ABA’s monopoly, but those advice-givers don’t have to live with the prospect of being unemployable or having people, at best, feign ignorance of what Concord is (and at worst, laugh at it.)

    Until states (besides California) decide to allow graduates of unaccredited law schools to take the bar, these people are likely wasting their time and money. As a practical matter, many people (myself included) simply have no confidence in graduates of unaccredited schools, so we simply won’t hire them for anything.

    Penn State’s experiment is a lot different. While there are problems with teleconferencing, by no means is teleconferencing between two classrooms equivalent to a widely strewn group taking classes over the web.

  • ABA anti-competitive
  • Posted by William Sumner Scott on October 31, 2007 at 8:45am EDT
  • What is the justification for the Penn State exception. What makes the ABA an exception to the trade laws. Does anyone supervise the legal profession?

    Who is in charge?

    William Sumner Scott, J.D.

    judicial equality foundation, Inc.

    http://jefound.org

    wss@jefound.org

  • Dang, Larry
  • Posted by Buzz on October 31, 2007 at 9:50am EDT
  • Things in law schools is a-changin' ..

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/31/education/31lawschool.html?ref=education&pagewanted=print

    As George Leef once asked: what does passing the bar exam have to do with practicing law?

    As noted before -- despite the protestations of Public Education Monopoly -- students often learn in spite of the faculty and administration.

    That is: neither tenure, unionization, nor management "fads of the month" have a significant causal impact on student learning. Self-motivated students learn; the others have been drafted by their parents and society, IMHO.

    As to online education: of course, it can be administered one-way or two-way.

    As to the ABA pilot trial: if the initial bar-exam scores come back as widely varying -- look out, below! Next up: free bar-exam prep courses.

    Larry's going to have fun with this, all day ..

  • replies
  • Posted by Larry on October 31, 2007 at 10:30am EDT
  • Buzz, Unlike some others, I do not deny that there are things that can be tweaked in legal education. But legal education “tweaking” is done with considerable deliberation, because law schools do not have the luxury of screwing up their reputation over something that is considered a “cool” idea. Like it or not, Buzz, legal education and the practice of law in general is about inserting one’s positions into existing paradigms. Sure, it is nice to tell people your normative beliefs about the way the world should be, but practicing lawyers have to explain to legal decision-makers why their clients “positions” (which might include a “desire” to merge with another company, or pleading “not guilty” to incest, rape and murder, but not wanting to go to jail) fit within an existing paradigm which allows them to merge and/or go free. Saying, “X should be true” doesn’t cut it. The same with law schools. New law schools must establish that they provide the same or better education within the context of existing law schools. Saying “We are playing a different – but better – game” doesn’t cut it.

    Bar exam scores are as flaky as the “ranking” process of schools themselves. In general, students from higher-ranked schools do better (at least in terms of pass “rate”) then students from lower-ranked schools. But, since schools do not (and should not) “teach to the test” it is unclear whether this is “cause” or effect. My guess is that students at lesser-ranked schools simply don’t know how to study in the way that students from better schools do. Secondly, the bar exam, like all exams, is only as good as the people that write it. I happen to think that the MBE is one of the fairest and most comprehensive tests of the law around. (Despite the fact that it is multiple choice and mostly trick questions.) But, some people disagree with me.

    Mr. Scott, Once again I need to point out that you seem to be the only employee if the Judicial Equality Foundation. Secondly, the reasons given for the Penn exception are documented on the ABA’s website.

    kgotthardt, The existence of these schools does not give me an ulcer. The fact that students are being taken advantage of DOES disturb me. But, anyone smart enough to go to law school should be able to tell real schools from these schools. So, my pity for these students is dwarfed by my angst over the war, world hunger, disease, civil rights, and bad music.

  • Agree wit' Lar?
  • Posted by Buzz on October 31, 2007 at 12:55pm EDT
  • Actually, yes.

    IMHO, teaching complex topics (e.g., advanced criminal law, eye surgery) requires iterative, multi-dimensional Socratic techniques that to duplicate in distance-ed would be cost-prohibitive.

    However, with enough effort, one might pass the MBE, though forget a lot of the test material within a few days.

  • Posted by kgotthardt on October 31, 2007 at 3:15pm EDT
  • Larry, I am pleased to see you have humanitarian concerns and concerns about students. We have something in common, then.

    I do want to point out, however that this statement may or may not be true: "But, anyone smart enough to go to law school should be able to tell real schools from these schools." In fact, schools provide education and curriculum. Since most students in any discipline are not experts in either field, we should probably have even more sympathy for students who are misled.

  • ABA standards?
  • Posted by Glen S. McGhee , Dir., at Florida Higher Education Accountability Project on October 31, 2007 at 4:15pm EDT
  • Everyone is assuming that just because the ABA publishes online standards at their website, this translates to QA/QC in the field.

    There is no reason to assume this, since no evidence regarding the effectiveness of the ABA's accreditation procedures. Inferences about the "accountability gap," however, can readily be drawn from other studies (McLendon, FSU 1968).

    The ABA's monopolist past brought it an antitrust suit by the US DOJ, which claimed the group was restricting accreditation attempts by for-profit schools, among others. (Most states require bar-exam takers to graduate from ABA-accredited schools.) The ABA denied wrongdoing but agreed to change its practices.

    [See http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/press_releases/1995/0257.htm Ironically, the DOJ found, “The complaint [against the ABA] alleges that the lack of oversight has led to abuses in the accreditation process, leading to an undue focus on guild concerns rather than quality education.” ]

    I am encouraged by recent changes made to ABA's faculty standards, which corrected a previous typo that I had pointed out. I guess I was the only one to even read their standards, since it was not corrected earlier.

  • Posted by LArry on October 31, 2007 at 6:35pm EDT
  • “Since most students in any discipline are not experts in either field, we should probably have even more sympathy for students who are misled.”

    I am curious about this. I have noticed a disturbing pattern. In the millions of college applications, students brag about how smart and worldly they are. When they get to college they then devalue themselves to say they need “extra help” and seek to opt-out of whatever requirements they can.

    But, then they begin the graduate application process. They talk about what a high level of success they had as undergraduates. But, somehow, we are expected to believe that despite the practice of proclaiming one’s greatness, there is a class of undergrads that is so hopelessly naive that they cannot tell a real law school from one which is simply not respected? The same goes for entrants to PhD programs. Are we really to assume that students have no idea about their employability and chances for graduation? It isn’t rocket science. They can ask their professors. Heck, they can see where their professors attended school. If none of their professors attended a school that keeps sending them literature, then maybe – just maybe – that school might require further research. If that school won’t provide them with a list of where their graduates have positions then, yes, that school might not be the place to go.

    This is really basic research that a students would do in the context of any research project that didn’t matter, it doesn’t seem like it is too much to expect a student to do it when their life depends on it.

    I really don’t see their “victim” status here, but maybe we have an honest disagreement.

    Mr. McGhee, I don’t really understand what you are trying to say. (Although I should note that you appear to be the only employee of your institution, yet call yourself a “director.”). However, there are some serious misstatements with regard to the1995 lawsuit against the ABA by the DOJ. You did not actually provide a copy of the complaint. You provided a copy of a press release, which isn’t really a substitute. The DOJ’s suit came at a time when the division was suing many trade organizations under similar theories, so it would need to be kept in context. In the end, the ABA did not agree that the actually would accredit for-profit law schools. In fact, it is quite possible that for-profit schools simply cannot meet the ABA’s requirements.

  • Oh Larry!
  • Posted by Been There to CLS , So Take a Deep Breath & Think, Guy on November 1, 2007 at 10:47am EDT
  • "Real" schools? In contrast to what?
    Whatever their shortcomings, CA bar pass rates are independent tests of graduates' knowledge. So if Concord Law School's typical graduate is more likely to pass the bar the first time around than one from say, Whittier Law School (an ABA accredited school), does this mean Whittier is probably not a "real" school despite ABA's blessing? Or what about Syracuse U's law school?

    http://www.calbar.ca.gov/calbar/pdfs/admissions/Statistics/FEBRUARY2007STATS.pdf

    If a physician chooses to get an online JD to strengthen his hand in dealing with the lawyers in professional life, is he/she being foolish, or would it be better to quit work a few years to do a residential ABA-program with the students being disparaged by your remarks?

    The assertions here about students being "misled" is, as lawyers say, "without foundation." Also, sadly amusing -- aren't law students the ones most likely to find "actionable offenses" lying under every rock, so why do we not think they would defend their interests more vigorously than the typical graduate student? What law school, even without ABA, wants that trouble?

  • What is everyone afraid of?
  • Posted by Doug on May 11, 2009 at 7:45pm EDT
  • What is the ABA, and anyone against someone getting their legal education online, afraid of? Do you even know what an online education entails? Have you ever attended or completed an online class? I have completed several online classes. In most, I have had more interaction with my professor and fellow classmates than I did in a regular physical classroom. In a physical classroom, especially one in which the professor is utilizing the Socratic method of teaching, only a couple of the students are able to participate in the discussion. In an online class, because of participation and attendance requirements, every student must participate in the discussions. In a physical class, I only view the presentation (the lecture) once and then the professor is out the door running for his car. In an online class, I can review the presentation as many times as I want, pause it, back it up and watch parts again, and so on. I get much more out of the lecture and discussion than I would have in a physical classroom situation.

    Another big hangup is the lack of a physical library. I'm sorry, but libraries are online now days. I'm sure most law firm utilize the online legal resources more than they do physical libraries, simply because it is faster to find what you want and copy & paste what you need (or print it) than photocopy the page of a book or hand-write notes.

    Technology has changed the legal profession outside of the classroom, how about updating the classes to match what these new lawyers will be seeing and doing in their career lifespans, not yours?

    CPA's can obtain their business and accounting education online at AASCB accredited business schools. There are Medical schools teaching non-clinical classes online. Harvard Extension has degrees online. Many accredited universities are offering Bachelors, Masters and Doctoral degrees online. You could have hired a subject matter expert with an online degree, would you know the difference? I doubt it.

    The Bar Exam might not be a measure of whether someone is a good lawyer or not, but it is the test that all lawyers have to take before becoming licensed. What is the difference between a good online educated lawyer who has passed the bar and a good lawyer that attended an ABA approved school? What's the difference between bad ones from either type of educational background that passed the bar? There isn't any difference, except maybe one paid less money to get his degree than the other.