Comments on NYU Downgrades Dual Enrollment

• dual enrollment
• Posted by R. Alan James , President at Institute Of Theological and Interdisciplinary Sstudies on May 22, 2008 at 5:45am EDT

• The duel enrollment has contributed to the downgrading of academic rigor and reality. Every serious college should follow the lead of NYU.

• What next?
• Posted by JBJones on May 22, 2008 at 6:15am EDT

• So, an institution of higher learning accredited by a regional accrediting agency is now to have the credibility of their own standards questioned by another institution of higher learning accredited by a similar regional accrediting agency? WOW! What will they think of next? This is an example of what I learned as I moved my family around the country in response to my government service of "our program is better than theirs - so why should we accept someone else's as being as good as ours?"
  Now I work in secondary eduction and the teachers and curriculum directors are arguing that we don't need to accept some one else's instruction in AP English or AP Spanish or AP Calculus because the students from that school are obviously unprepared when they arrive at our school during the year as a transfer. The problem is that our staff do not know the same or similar comments are made about our students that transfer to other secondary schools -- our students are not prepared to pick up when they start a new school either.
  With our mobile society today -- it is a fact of life that people move -- people change -- schools do not ALL teach the same material the same way across the United States. The same is said and acknowledged for post-secondary institutions and that is called ACADEMIC FREEDOM -- can we think about the possible side effects if this attitude demonstrated by the comments made in this article are carried to the next level? How dare someone else question how I teach my course -- that is my academic freedom under fire!

• Posted by KWT on May 22, 2008 at 7:40am EDT

• A distinction should be made between dual credit courses taken on site at high schools and those taken on a college campus. The discourse tends to center, as it does in this article, on "rigor" -- but for a variety of reasons, that's a problematic basis for or against these credits. More significant and less thorny is the issue of whether students have had an actual college experience -- being integrated into course sections with non-HS students in an environment other than the high school. Most colleges with a dual enrollment program offer students both options. Typically, the decision is made by the HS administration and influenced greatly by the overloaded guidance counselors who create students' schedules. As with so many other things in higher ed, it tends to be a numbers game, at least in my experience. If the high school can get enough warm bodies qualified to take the college courses, then a section is created on-site at the high school. In that situation, which I have taught, the substance of the course (the "rigor") may well be the same, but the environment is anything but collegiate. Some poor HS teacher loses his/her classroom planning period so the dual-credit class can take up temporary occupancy. There are countless interruptions normal to the HS routine (I suppose) but utterly foreign in a collegiate context, from the pledge to announcements to calls from the office to "send so-and-so" here or there for this or that reason. The students all know each other and are likely getting ready to travel as an intact pack to the next class, which might be another dual-credit course or a regular senior HS class. By contrast, when these same students are simply integrated into a standard course section at the college campus or even online, they get a taste of what college is like -- in addition to the academic material at hand. Thus, the real issue may not be the perceived "rigor" but rather, more holistically, whether the experience itself is a reasonable surrogate for freshman year.

• Dual Credit
• Posted by Mike on May 22, 2008 at 8:35am EDT

• To paint all dual credit programs with the same brush is unfair. Why doesn't NYU consider these programs on an individual basis or at least agree to accept credit from programs accredited by NACEP (National Association of Concurrent Enrollment Programs) who demand a solid curriculum and qualified faculty. Any strong academic student who has participated in a dual enrollment program should avoid NYU and their elitist policy. There are plenty other selective colleges that will welcome and award credit to these students.

• It's about the money
• Posted by DG on May 22, 2008 at 9:20am EDT

• Let’s be real people. This is about tuition dollars not “rigor” or academic freedom. If the student comes in with transfer cridts that means less tuition dollars for the college/university. The bottom line is it’s about the money.

• Veterans with credit at many bases
• Posted by Paul Rutter , Adult Education Doctoral Candidate at Penn State on May 22, 2008 at 9:20am EDT

• I think this is a lousy move if it becomes a trend to other groups.
  Veterans like myself that have been defending our country all over the nation and world have credits from many accredited colleges and universities (for me HI, SC, FL, and NY).
  I thought that is what accreditation was for? As long as the credits fit in the degree program we enroll in ultimately.
  Does this mean regional accreditation means zilch now?
  Bad Dog NYU. Bad dog.

• en garde
• Posted by Pat Lees on May 22, 2008 at 10:35am EDT

• Dual credit and dual enrollment are two different things...but duel credit sounds like fun!

• Posted by KD on May 22, 2008 at 10:40am EDT

• Show me the evidence that proves "The duel enrollment has contributed to the downgrading of academic rigor and reality. Every serious college should follow the lead of NYU" as well as define for me "serious" college?

• Evidence?
• Posted by Thomas , Director on May 22, 2008 at 10:45am EDT

• Is this another example of a decision being made with narrowly focused anecdotal evidence? Is the focus on rigor (ours is better than yours) or student learning outcomes based on longitudinal student success?

• Dual Enrollment
• Posted by John Craig, PhD on May 22, 2008 at 10:50am EDT

• Rigor, academic freedom and finance are real concerns for these course offerings and while many colleges and universities can elect to discount them, the real advantage is for students to seamlessly enter programs of study with foundational academic skills and abilities at the postsecondary level in order to graduate earlier or on time.

  Research suggests that the majority of students rarely do graduate in the standard 2-4 year time frame for an associate or baccalaureate degree. It's a way to save on tuition dollars and high student loan debt at the end of the academic tunnel into the world of work for many college graduates.

  Many colleges and secondary schools use these offerings as a way to keep students in school working towards earning bona fide college credits (which the student pays for) and can transfer them into an accepting institution. Many smaller district high schools may not be able to support an AP program/course and may elect to use dual enrollment as a replacement program to fill that market need. AP has also been under fire for many years and quite frankly it places more bearing on the final standardized exam score which may or not be ultimately awarded at the collge they elect or are accepted into anyway. Has anyone had a bad test day or work day in their entire life? Most people have and do, it's human nature.

  Dual enrollment takes into account the whole educational experience a student receives from qualified and approved high school faculty by the college offering the course, not one final exam exit score 0-5. If regional accrediting bodies want to limit or discount them, it should be voted on and univerisally agreed to, but it will probably will never be considered in the short term. However, it all comes down to three overarching principles: (1) academic freedom; (2) rigor; and (3) gaining additional tuition dollars to support college finance.

  Finally, whatever each college/university decides to do, it should be clearly communicated to all incoming or perspective students and schools that support dual enrollment that they will not accept these credits. Misleading the student decision to attend that institution should be clearly defined. "Let the buyer beware."

• High schools vs. universities
• Posted by Fred Flener , Retired at Northeastern Illinois on May 22, 2008 at 10:50am EDT

• Although my evidence is anecedotal based on what I have personally observed, I can say almost without exception that high school teachers teaching AP math classes are better than the TA's teaching the same courses at the universities. The teachers teaching AP courses are usually the most qualified/experienced teachers in a department. They not only have a solid understanding of the subject matter, but have years of experience and training learning how to get kids to understand. In universities around the country, many of the 100 level courses are taught by the least experienced who have had little or no training in pedagogy. Arguing about the quality of such courses is invalid. At least the universities can at least be honest and argue it's a money problem--the loss of tuition at $1,000 -- $2,000 per course.

• Blow to dual enrollment
• Posted by Brian Hopewell on May 22, 2008 at 10:50am EDT

• Do the colleges and universities, like NYU, that are putting the bosh on dual enrollment credit have longitudinal data to demonstrate that students who take English 101 in a dual enrollment course with an authorized instructor are more likely to fail in NYU’s English 201 than a typical NYU freshman who took English 101 with an NYU professor, adjunct, or graduate teaching assistant? Wouldn’t it make sense for a highly selective institution like NYU, or for that matter any university that values intellectual motivation, to *encourage* the practice among high school students of seeking and passing college-level course work? Dual enrollment and early college programs offer an intellectual life-buoy to the vast number of secondary school students who need and deserve an academic challenge when they’re ready for it—which is all too often before the typical completion at age 17 of a conventional high school curriculum. Or might it be that NYU is more concerned that students who earn college credit while in high school will not be obliged to pay for the same course at the far more expensive collegiate credit-hour rate?

• And then there's CLEP
• Posted by Steve Foerster on May 22, 2008 at 11:00am EDT

• There's so much overlap between high school courses and college general education that many kids ought to be able to pass the relevant CLEP examinations whether they were in a dual enrollment program or not.

• Dual enrollment
• Posted by Susan on May 22, 2008 at 11:05am EDT

• Dual enrollment is an excellent vehicle for recruiting high quality students. Use of articulation agreements between P-12 and IHE define the quality - and many of the high school teachers delivering the courses can also serve as adjuncts delivering the same course on campus. Collaboration is the key.

• Posted by Kate on May 22, 2008 at 11:10am EDT

• Harvard, Georgetown, Stanford, Duke, the University of Pennsylvania, MIT, Pomona, Amherst, Wellesley, Yale, Princeton. . . these schools already do not accept dual-enrollment credits taken as part of the high school diploma/for H.S. credit.

  Glad to see NYU catch up here.

  It really IS about establishing academic rigor. A few years ago - when I was an admissions officer at a highly selective university - a guidance counsleor told me that the college course, offered "Dual-Enrollment" with credit from a large flagship state university, was the same course as the honors course taught at the high school. In fact, students in the class either got Honors marked on their transcript or, if they paid $$ to the university offering the credit, they got "University of X Calculus" on their transcript.

  It's more about the colleges/universities offering these dual enrollment classes who make the money - not the other way around!

• A Bit of Clarification
• Posted by John Beckman , Public Affairs on May 22, 2008 at 11:20am EDT

• Overall, from NYU's perspective, this story was right -- we are tightening
  standards with regard to those courses for which we will give credit.
  However, we were a little disappointed with the way this story was reported
  because it didn't really capture the appropriate details or distinctions.

  "Dual Enrollment," to our minds, means courses taught at a college where the
  student is in class principally with college students, not high school
  students (for instance, a high school senior has completed all math courses
  offered by his/her high school and has fulfilled the high school's math
  graduation requirements; the student wishes to pursue more complex math
  coursework and does so by taking a course at the local college in some area
  of advanced mathematics). We have and will continue to review those
  requests for credit on a case-by-case basis, evaluating the grade received
  and whether the course has the required rigor to be given college credit.

  However, another phenomenon that has developed over the past number of years
  is "college-level" courses that are taught in high schools to high
  schoolers, not infrequently by high school teachers who are certified to
  teach college level courses. Generally speaking, we like the idea that this
  is happening, because we want students to take challenging courses in high
  school, and we admire them for doing so (for that reason, it should be
  understood that the crack that "NYU is not impressed" was the reporter's
  language, not something we said or would have said). They receive credit --
  appropriately -- on their high school transcript during the application
  process. That, however, is separate and distinct from giving COLLEGE CREDIT
  for the course, which we will not be doing.

  We will continue to give credit for the appropriate scores on AP exams,
  though not simply for taking AP courses. The exam helps us verify the rigor
  of the course work, which is precisely the challenge we are confronting with
  the phenomenon I just described. Likewise the IB.

  I am also sending a copy of this posting to the reporter and to the editor
  of Inside Higher Ed.

  -- John Beckman, NYU Public Affairs

• Dual Enrollment
• Posted by econmavin on May 22, 2008 at 11:30am EDT

• I agree with NYU. The pressure to pass dual enrollment sudents can lead to credit being received when it is not earned. I had a case where a dual enrollment senior with a 3.9 high school GPA would not have graduated from High School because she was failing her dual enrollment economics course at a local community college. I ended up passing her.

• Indeed it's about rigor
• Posted by MAT , Chair, Writing Studies Department on May 22, 2008 at 12:30pm EDT

• Kudos to NYU (where I attended both graduate school and law school) for its decision on dual enrollment. It should indeed, decisively, be about rigor. It should not be about more money, attracting more applicants, or anytho\ing else that dilutes courses taught at high schools with the dubious, if not bogus, claim to being college-level.

• Dual Credit
• Posted by Joe Beckmann , Developer at Choice Thru Education on May 22, 2008 at 12:30pm EDT

• I think it totally indicative of second rate universities that the first comment chose to duel rather than accommodate bright students with college experience. It reminds me of the ancient days of the 1960's, when I went to Columbia because NYU was the less exacting but the more pedantic institution. It's embarrassing, as someone who has worked in, through, around, and out of private and public colleges and universities, now, for four decades, to see the pedants who made AP an "innovation" so many decades ago still in charge. A test-based credit is infinitely less intellectual and productive than a demonstrated portfolio, and, for any university to prefer a test over a documented intellectual exercise demonstrates precisely and concisely why the duel between high school and college traps so many, for so long, and so viciously.

• NYU Downgrades Dual Enrollment
• Posted by James B. Wingo on May 22, 2008 at 1:05pm EDT

• As a former school counselor and Urban District Administrator, the carrot for our students to stay focused and motivated to continue to higher education was the incentive of taking college course on sight or at local community colleges. It gave our students a taste of what to expect in college and to help them be prepared. It seems it's more amount the financial loss of those colleges not willing to accept other college credit. It's always been disappointing on why certain colleges acceps credit from even other colleges, especially Historically Black Colleges and Universities.

• Show me the money...
• Posted by E. Ponimus on May 22, 2008 at 1:50pm EDT

• First, I want to thank John Beckman of NYU for posting a very cogent clarification. And second, a lot of the comments suggest that NYU is just money grubbing with this change in policy. Perhaps things have changed since I was an undergrad 20+ years ago, but my tuition was paid by the semester whether I took 12 or 20 credits. So, unless the students entering as freshmen are trying to graduate in fewer than 8 semesters, there isn't a financial cost. The cost is the nuisance of taking a required course that one feels is repetitive with one's experience; and the consequent loss of the time to take more electives, particularly in the latter year of one's studies.

• Dual Enrollment Teaches Students the Wrong Lessons
• Posted by Tricia Bertram Gallant , Academic Integrity Coordinator at University of California, San Diego on May 22, 2008 at 1:50pm EDT

• I am so pleased to see that a major university has made this decision, albeit for different reasons than I problematize "dual enrollments." The dual enrollment program reinforces in students a consumer mentality of higher education by teaching them that the academy accepts short-cut methods for earning college credit and prioritizes credit acquisition over learning. Why do we wonder, then, that students view other "short-cutting" methods (e.g., copying and pasting off the internet, copying homework, submitting the same paper in two different classes for credit, and unauthorized collaboration) as viable and acceptable methods for completing college courses? This "double dipping" may offer students short-term benefits (e.g., college access), but NYU's bold step begs the academy to step-back and contemplate the potential long-term costs of dual-enrollment and other credit-acquisition schemes. How does “dual-enrollment” affect our students’ cognitive, moral/ethical, and social development? What are the psychological and adjustment ramifications for the students who enter college as "better-than-perfect" because they receive extra credit for AP classes? Are there ways to prepare students for college-level education and enhance access WITHOUT teaching them that it is acceptable to double-dip and WITHOUT reinforcing in them the country’s obsession with grades? I would hope so and I hope NYU’s decision stimulates a nation-wide discussion on this issue.

• Early Entry Program- Dual Enrollment
• Posted by SS on May 22, 2008 at 2:25pm EDT

• As the former administrative director for an early entry program, I would like to hear some clarification from NYU regarding how they will treat the transfer of credits from early entry programs. Programs like The Clarkson School and Simon's Rock offer younger students a chance to study at college, among college students at rigorous accredited higher education institutions. At several such programs, some of the classes that students take will count toward completion of a high school diploma. I think there is a danger of penalizing students who are ready to move on with their studies (to collegiate study) one or more years early.

• NYU courses v. tuition
• Posted by Krista at CUNY on May 22, 2008 at 2:25pm EDT

• Actually, if we're talking about undergrad work, as an NYU alum I can say for a fact: NYU students DO NOT PAY PER CREDIT, they pay (or their loans pay) per year - a lump sum of about $34-40k, depending on housing. If they can get away without taking some of the general ed classes, it doesn't mean a reduction of tuition $$$ for NYU, it merely means that the student has more credits to do something else with - like taking elective courses or putting them toward a minor or double major...

• Are college courses as rigorous as high school courses?
• Posted by Prof Ed on May 22, 2008 at 4:55pm EDT

• I second the call posted by "Thomas" for longitudinal studies. So far, about all I've seen is that someone at NYU "feels" their courses are more rigorous than those elsewhere. Institutions that emphasize snob appeal over substance generally don't like rigorous studies that compare actual students' performance. I've seen graduates of "top ten" schools in US News and World Report get their clocks cleaned regularly when compared with students of particular, but largely unknown, institutions. The latters' graduates regularly, year after year, surpass the scores and pass rates on professional exams in engineering, accounting, etc.

  To find out what is really happening to students, one needs to go directly to the professional societies that track the results and avoid both the smoke and mirrors of the magazine reports, glitzy brochure of institutions, and the illusions of grandeur of "flagship" institutions.

  Longitudinal studies on dual enrollment classes might just show that general education courses in some "selective" institutions really have no more substance than high school courses. There are certain kinds of evidence that these schools would rather not have in resources that are easily available to the public.

  If longitudinal studies show that dual enrollment courses are inferior, then what NYU did is, like it or not, justifiable.

  Making such decisions without using or calling for evidence is what those who lack education and ability to think critically have to do. University officials performing at that level constitute an embarrassment to all academicians.

  So NYU--here's a call to see the evidence!

• WHY Dual Enrollment lacks rigor
• Posted by Glen S. McGhee , Dir., at Florida Higher Education Accountability Project on May 22, 2008 at 6:55pm EDT

• Here’s an example of the wave of courses from 9th grade to 12th grade that students are expecting to be able to transfer when they graduate high school:
  http://www.bayschools.com/bhs/ACT_Now/sample_plan.php

  Without adequate quality control measures, registrars are right to be leery of having to accept college credits from doubtful sources such as these. Out-of-field teacher assignments for these classes run as high as 50%, we have found.

  Accreditors are failing to acknowledge the problem, and state bureaucrats are mired in turf battles with CCs and local school districts trying to implement a "Statement of Standards" (see name-link below) for more than a year now without making any progress.

  Compounding these problems, the regional accrediting association for the South, SACS, has been officially moving away from enforcing faculty standards since 2002, which apply to courses and course credits awarded by community colleges.

  It is not without good reason that institutions of NYU's standing are looking askance at dual enrollment. More should do the same.

• Dual Credit rebuttal
• Posted by J B Jones on May 22, 2008 at 7:45pm EDT

• OK, I was one of the first to comment -- I wanted to see how others would respond.

  This is my reality. Yesterday I had five seniors who failed the dual credit course for graduation in my office. Graduation is in two weeks. How do you find a method to assist the students without breaking the rules for credits and jeopardize your accreditation? We have an on-line high school equivalent from a regionally accredited high school program where the students take the knowledge from the college course and try and meet the expectations of the high school course. So far, that is not 100% -- three of the five are having to relearn objectives for the high school course and try again for the test that demonstrates at least 70% mastery [an alternate test] which if they do not achieve then the students who took the more rigorous college course on the college campus will not graduate because they will not pass the high school course which by the discussions above should not happen.

  Get a grip -- this is a school saying "I'm better than you" to the college that is sponsoring the dual credit course whether taught on the college campus or in the high school classroom. We all recognize that some programs are better than others -- otherwise the annual "best of colleges & universities" from US News would not be such a huge seller and not be a factor in so many institutions' PR releases.

  In two different school districts I observed two different delivery methods for dual credit programs. The instructors that teach the courses are quality instructors who have no problem adapting to any situation where their classes meet. The college classroom is not a sacred animal that cannot be disturbed. In thsi past year several institutions of higher learning have and their classrooms totally disturbed and yet no one has questioned the validity of the courses interrupted. Those credits will be accepted if a students chooses to transfer instead of going back to Virginia Tech or Southern Illinois.

  Step back and read the comments with a dispassionate focus. Pretend the negative comments are about your institution. Pretend the positive comments are about an institution that your institution really does not like to accept transfers from -- then take two deep breaths and think again.

  No one will be as good as you are.
  No one will be as bad as the other place.
  No one will teach the course the same as someone else and yet within an institution there are these same arguments that students use to pick and choose which professor they want to take a course from -- reason -- that professor is easier to get an A from that that professor.

  Do you hear any one complaining about that argument and making plans to not accept that professor's course on the college transcript because the professor does not teach to the level you think is right?

• Get a grip JB
• Posted by sk on May 22, 2008 at 9:20pm EDT

• "Yesterday I had five seniors who failed the dual credit course for graduation in my office. Graduation is in two weeks. How do you find a method to assist the students without breaking the rules for credits and jeopardize your accreditation?"

  Easy -- summer school. Just like for anyone else.

• GET REAL
• Posted by R.A.K. , Assistant Professor of Economics on May 23, 2008 at 5:00am EDT

• Sounds like NYU is look out for NUMBER ONE! The bottom LINE. I think it would be very interesting to look at there early college career attrition rates with and without acceptance of dual credit courses and then conduct a simple OLS regression to see the correlation with respect to the revenue streams of the same samples.
  Things that make you go Hhmmmmm?

  I am sure most of us have read the statistics that attrition is very high in the first few years of college education. Might have to do something with the "CUSTOMER NO SERVICE" presentation of subsidized education.

  Good luck with that idea NYU... the Market will Prevail.

• Posted by Lillian Agapalidou , College Counselor on May 23, 2008 at 8:10am EDT

• I'd like to have a clear answer as to what happens with credit for the IB final exams: will students get it or not?
  Thank you

• Dual Enrollment
• Posted by Sandra G. on May 23, 2008 at 10:50am EDT

• I appreciated the comment about how everyone here is overlooking NACEP (National Alliance for Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships). This organization reviews programs for accreditation. The programs must demonstrate compliance to NACEP's high standards in regard to curriculum, faculty, assessment and other areas. Several of New York State's community colleges are accredited with the organization and it is highly unjust for NYU to deny all concurrent enrollment programs equally without at least making a distinction for programs that have already proven themselves in quality and rigor. In addition, many states have also legislated standards for concurrent enrollment programs.

  Also being overlooked is a previous article in this same website reporting on the results of a study by the Community College Research Center, which shows that students who participate in dual enrollment tend to have higher GPA's in college and higher rates of college completion, among other positive results. NYU wants to ignore evidence supporting the concurrent enrollment programs, but has come up with no evidence to the contrary, basing its decision on a "feeling" that the courses just can't be the same. The study results are found at:
  www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/10/17/dualenroll.

  My own experience bears out the findings of the study just mentioned. I manage a concurrent enrollment program at a community college, and we annually survey students after they have completed their courses and are attending a post-secondary institution. One of the most frequent comments I receive is about how the college-level course taken while in high school helped prepare them for the demands of courses in college.

  Another person wrote in to comment that the problem with dual enrollment is that students don't have the same college experience. Apparently she also doesn't agree with on-line courses as meriting valid postsecondary credit since students aren't sitting in class next to another college student.

  The reality is that dual enrollment courses, like on-line courses, are here to stay because they serve an important function. The issue shouldn't be whether we can categorically deny them, like NYU, but what standards we find acceptable for how they operate so that we can all feel comfortable with their academic rigor. That's why we need to look toward and support organizations like NACEP.

• more on quality of dual enrollment
• Posted by nancy hoffman , vice president at Jobs for the Future on May 25, 2008 at 7:15pm EDT

• Jobs for the Future, a national policy and advocacy organization based in Boston, has worked with a number of states to open dual enrollment to a wider range of students, and, particularly, to recommend dual enrollment as a strategy to introduce students underrepresented in higher education to college expectations and standards. In our new publication, On Ramp to College: A State Policy Maker's Guide to Dual Enrollment (www.jff.org), we address the issue of quality for the specific circumstance that troubled NYU-- college courses being taught in a high school by a high school teacher or adjunct certified by the college providing the credit. We recommend as a minimum the following guidelines:
  PRINCIPLES FOR ENSURING QUALITY
  • College courses taught at high schools use the same syllabus, assign comparable
  work, and give the same examinations as the equivalent courses taught on the
  postsecondary campus.
  • The kind and number of college courses offered is limited in order to monitor quality efficiently.
  • Higher education sets minimum instructor qualifications.
  We hope that NYU will consider putting in place a process to assess the quality of such courses rather than categorically denying credit for them. For low income young people, the opportunity to take a rigorous, non remedial college course at no cost in high school may make the difference between attending or not gaining a postsecondary credential. Several experimental design research studies are beginning to provide evidence that dual enrollment can promote college going and momentum toward graduation. Dual enrollment can also function to provide feedback to high schools about the alignment of their courses with postsecondary non-remedial course requirements.

  While there is a distinct advantage to students taking courses on a college campus with "regular" college students, our experience with dual enrollment and early college high schools suggests that high school teachers and adjuncts can also provide high quality, authentic college experiences.

• Posted by Haim Baruh on May 27, 2008 at 2:35pm EDT

• Kudos to NYU for realizing that dual enrollment does not serve the best interests of students. Frankly, I was surprised to find out that NYU accepted dual enrollment credits.

  The objective of a student in receiving a college education should be to advance their knowledge and education. It should NOT be to do whatever is possible to receive their degree as early as possible. If the latter is their goal, a student can go to a diploma mill and pay an arm and a leg for a meaningless piece of paper.

  Universities that accept dual enrollment should ask themselves the following question: If a C student (or weaker) earns college credit through dual enrollment and they are not overwhelmed while at college, is it possible that the curriculum at that college is so watered down that it is not any more rigorous or advanced than a high school curriculum?

• Accreditation provides the measure of rigor and quality
• Posted by Julie Williams , Chair of the Communications Committee at National Alliance of Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships on May 29, 2008 at 4:25pm EDT

• Determining the rigor and quality of concurrent enrollment programs is not a new challenge—indeed it is exactly that issue that led to the creation of the National Alliance of Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships (NACEP) in 1999.

  A NACEP-accredited concurrent enrollment program (CEP) can confidently say to students, parents, legislators, and other colleges and universities, that a student enrolled in a CEP course is taking the same course that they would be taking if they were on the sponsoring college campus. It is particularly important to understand that in a NACEP-accredited concurrent enrollment program:

  • Students are held to the same standards of achievement as those expected of students in the on-campus sections of the course;

  • High school teachers meet the same academic requirements as faculty and instructors at the college; and

  • Courses are approved through the approval process used to approve all other courses offered by the post-secondary institution.

  We encourage NYU to explore the standards that NACEP-accredited programs must meet. These are posted on the NACEP website at www.nacep.org. If NYU recognizes transfer credits from a particular college they should also recognize credits earned through a CEP sponsored by that college, as long as the CEP is accredited. Accreditation provides the measure of rigor and quality that NYU and other post-secondary institutions seek.

  Julie Williams, Chair
  NACEP Communications Committee
  on behalf of the NACEP Board of Directors

• Dual Enrollment
• Posted by MAC , educator on May 30, 2008 at 1:35pm EDT

• Dual enrollment may be rejected by the NYU in Buffalo, but it makes sense to the families of students hoping to attend college at an affordable rate. To remove this opportunity smacks of elitism which is in opposition to the goal of increasing our country's educational level and providing a better workforce. Academic ability and financial ability to pay for education do not always coincide. We have to ask the question of what is motivating the NYU to take this perspective. Could it be that they stand to lose revenue? The phrase, "verifiable in terms of academic rigor" is an interesting one. How would anyone verify academic rigor objectively? The first phrase comes second to the phrase, "institutions are suspicious of". Are we to believe that there is no common ground between academic providers, and that teaching faculty ought to be righteously suspicious of one another? I would be interested to hear the support of that position from an objective point of view! MAC

• dual enrollment
• Posted by Anne-Marie Mazur on June 28, 2008 at 9:00pm EDT

• If a course is dual enrollment it is not taught by a high school teacher, it is a college course taken through either a community college or state college. It is the same as taking the course as any other student enrolled in the particular college.

• Dual Enrollment courses
• Posted by Beth Axelson , Director of Admissions on June 30, 2008 at 9:20am EDT

• In Massachusetts, dual enrollment courses are not taught at the high school by high school teachers. Students who are enrolled in the dual enrollment program attend courses at the college campuses along side college students. These courses are usually the college freshman level courses, but some students have taken sophomore or even junior level courses. It is a shame that any system would deny credit if these courses come on a college transcript.

• Dual credit is great!
• Posted by Randy N. , Professor at Lone Star college on July 7, 2008 at 8:50pm EDT

• I teach Dual Credit US History on a high school campus, through the local community college. I disagree 100% with NYU on this matter. So, they don't accept community college credits? Or do they see dual credit as not really being a community college credit? I can tell you from 17 years of college teaching experience, that my HS students do about 10% across the board better , than the 18-30 year olds at the community college campus. NYU will never get my child's $ or mine.

• It's all about the money
• Posted by Mary Rosen , Program Manager at NASA on December 13, 2008 at 11:45pm EST

• If a student earns his/her Honors High School/AA Diploma they are a transfer student whether the now substandard-NYU likes it or not. Stanford University, University of Florida, Georgia Tech are three outstanding prestigious institutions (off of the top of my head) that accept dual enrollment students and transfer students. Good luck to NYU for driving away the more intelligent and inspired students. Also it is simply ridicolous that this school doesn't even offer an engineering program.

  Below are a few (there are so many more like this) of students assessment of this once incredible school:

  1-Too much red tape to get things done
  2-No one cares about the students (unless they jump or threaten to)
  3-Financial aid is a joke, so is the Bursar's office
  4-TA's (for the most part) don't even speak English
  5-Most of the students are out-of-town pretentious axxxx.
  6-There's no such thing as the NYU community
  7-It's ovverated and overrpriced
  Avoid going here if you can.

  Here's another one:
  Honestly, the only perk about this school is the fact that it's in the middle of New York City. The dorm rooms are the size of a shoebox (and they charge you as though it were a 5-star hotel room), nobody cares enough to help you if you have questions, there are allegedly "tons of opportunities" here but they're impossible to find out about--and if you do manage to find out, it costs you extra. EVERYTHING here costs extra. You'd think with a tuition of 50k, they could give us students a break on some other stuff, but apparently that would be too generous. And the food is terrible--if you don't need a meal plan, don't get one. Everything is coated in grease and oil. As for the student body, yes there are a lot of very open and cool people, but for every tolerable person there's a snobby rich bitch who only thinks about him or herself. The campus is so spread out, if you have a class that's not at a Washington Square building, you're never going to make it. And they have so many grad students
  teaching it's ridiculous (especially in the language departments).

  I transferred from a state school to NYU a year ago. I'm orginally from the city, so that part really is not that exciting. As a chemistry major, I had the pleasure of dealing with mediocre lab equipment, 1 or 2 hour waiting for the computer labs, grad students that spoke 2 words of english, professors that could care less and whose lectures had almost NOTHING to do with the material in the exams, and exponential grade curves that allowed me to get a C in physics by guessing every single question on all 5 exams. All for the low, low price of 40K a year. I'm getting the hell out of here before I too jump from a tall building like 6 other people have already done in the past year. Yeah...NYU sucks.

  Sorry, NYU really needs to do more before this university becomes a school of the past.