Comments on Quick Takes: Inquiry at VCU Blasted, Ponzi Scheme at Miami, Postdoc Union, Community College Data, Scientists Who Share, For-Profit Regulation, Governor Gives Up Football Tickets, Court Loss for Men's Sports Backers, New Naming Rules in British Columbia

• LSU Football Tickets
• Posted by David on August 21, 2008 at 7:50am EDT

• Thank you, Governor, for rejecting the tickets, but please create a plan to use those ten tickets for groups of kids to see college football who would never have such an opportunity nor ever saw college in their future. Ten season tickets = approximately 60-70 such opportunities.

• Another option
• Posted by Russell on August 21, 2008 at 11:55am EDT

• David's good suggestion begs another one: Would the Governor consider selling the tickets and using the proceeds to provide food for children who would rather eat than attend a football game?

• Community College Data
• Posted by Judy on August 21, 2008 at 11:55am EDT

• I must add a comment here concerning the community college blurb. I looked at the report, and it has a very misleading part in the opening sections about degree or certificate completions:

  "Forty-five percent of students beginning at a community college in 2003–04 had left school without completing a degree or certificate program by 2006. Among the community college first-time freshmen who intended to transfer to a 4-year college, 39 percent had left school by 2006 without completing a degree or certificate program". (Notice that the last part is only 2-3 years.)

  The full report somewhat clarifies that statement, but then brings the report summary back to the above conclusion. The problem is that many CC students decide, for many reasons, that they should not be in college at all (their expectations were unrealistic), or that they must postpone their education. Many others are only taking courses for transfer with no intention of earning a CC degree or certificate. Others are taking courses just for a brush-up, for skills improvement for their current work, or even just for fun. All of this is much rarer in a 4-year institution. That lack of "completion" in the narrow view lends to the beliefs that CC's are less rigorous, are less valuable, are poorer at retention efforts. When all the variables are factored in, CC's are extremely successful. We just have many more variables than 4-year institutions. Students far more often than not achieve their goals, even not "completing" in the data-defined views.

• Re: Community College Data
• Posted by Puzzled on August 21, 2008 at 1:15pm EDT

• For Judy and other community college experts: I'm trying to understand these retention/graduation issues, and for some reason I never can quite grasp them. These are not rhetorical questions; I ask because I don't know the answer and am trying to understand.

  You say that many students who don't complete are fulfilling their goals. How do you actually know that? Is there statistical survey data that show this for students who leave without completing? If so, why isn't that up front in the reports?

  On admission, don't community college ask students if they are degree-seeking or non-degree seeking? Don't they separate those populations in their reporting? Certainly if someone takes a course in order to learn how to use MS Word and that's all, such a person should be distinguished from someone who takes an intro computer course with the intention (stated or not) of completing an A.A., but is also never seen again. The first student represents a success, the second does not.

  You say community colleges have more variables, and I agree. But in the public reports, these variables never seem to get broken down. If cc's are tracking, say, six different categories of students separately (as opposed to just "finished" and "didn't finish"), why isn't that the first line of the press release? ("60% of students who came to brush up a technical skill report they learned just what they needed, and 60% of students who stated their intention to complete an A.A. did so in three years.")

• UMiami taint unsurprising but ain't quite what it seems
• Posted by Fritz Katz on August 21, 2008 at 2:10pm EDT

• Splitting hairs, this became as much a Pyramid Scheme as a Ponzi. It started out Ponzi by targeting greedy high roller investors and using some of that booty to pay the promised inflated returns to early ins. However, it morphed into a Pyramid where later average Joes were enticed to recruit other average Joes to buy in by making the early Joes "group leaders" and giving them an immediate cut of the subsequent member buy ins.

  That it often took place in the overstuffed conference rooms of UM is no surprise to me as a graduate who watched the place shift from a respected research university (cum South Miami combat zone med school) also attractive to sun-loving Yankees to one that would do anything to attract students and "business" from typically hypercorrupt South America as its lifeline to survival in the face of competition from new legit state schools such as FIU next door, the four year community colleges everywhere in Florida, and diploma mills belatedly cleaning up their act like NOVA in Ft Lauderdale.

• Community College completion rate
• Posted by CC 'failure'? on August 21, 2008 at 4:30pm EDT

• I would like to make a simple comment about community colleges. They play an absolutely essential role for many, many students, both by providing an opportunity for those of us with limited options because of financial challenges, as well as those who may not be quite prepared for more traditional 4-year institutions. Measuring the success of CCs by noting the number of students who complete a degree is misleading. I am a prime example:

  I chose to transfer to a 4-year institution after 2 years at my CC without completing my AS degree. I simply was not able to fit in all the electives that I needed to complete the AS around my very demanding laboratory courses and work schedule, though I certainly identified myself as a person seeking a degree. In fact, after I transfered, I went on to be the valedictorian at the 4 year institution from which I graduated with a BS in Biology, and then completed a Ph.D. in Genetics several years later. Did the Community College I attended fail me? Not in the least. I feel that I may have somehow failed them, however. Attending CC was the best decision I ever made, and all these years later I continue to feel indebted to my former community college for providing me with a means by which a college education became a possibility. Metrics may be useful, but they can never tell the real story.

• Community College Data
• Posted by Judy on August 21, 2008 at 7:45pm EDT

• When students enroll with an advisor, goal questions are indeed asked and input. Multitudes of students now enroll online, so there is not as much ability to probe and get solid answers. Add to that the issue of students deciding after they arrive to change, move, whatever for outside reasons (family issues, illness, transfers, job issues,and the like) that force students to postpone or change an educational path (not a failure for the school or the student). The community college has a far greater "transient" constituency. We track most of the things you mention, Puzzled. The problem is that "the powers that be" lump everything into "completion" or "no completion", and the factor for determination is degree/ certificate reception...period. It's numbers they see, not people. Witness the example of "CC 'Failure'?" and what came there. That is a pretty common thing. Was he/she a failure? Um, I don't think so! I don't know if that clarifies anything or not, but I asked that very question of our connection to the state legislature, if the state legislature/governor understand the nature of community colleges and their students. He said they do and they don't...
  Most of them probably don't really get it. I think people have to be here awhile to REALLY get it. I've taught at a large university also, and I can say unequivically that our students are as capable and intelligent as other students. We are not a place for underachievers or "dummies". We are a place for everyone who wants to go to school, for whatever reason.

• Community College Data
• Posted by Blossom , Vice President on August 21, 2008 at 7:45pm EDT

• Dear Puzzled:

  Here is a variable that impacts on tracking ---

  CCs do ask students whether they are degree or non-degree seeking; however, many well-intentioned and sincere but financially-strapped, non-degree seeking students who are just looking to improve their chances for employment and a better life, feel compelled to state the opposite because they must declare a major (in other words, matriculate) to "qualify" for financial assistance.

• CC Data
• Posted by david on August 24, 2008 at 10:20pm EDT

• Thanks much for the comments of Judy and CCFailure. As they said,traditional measures such as graduation data do not tell the story of the CCs. In one Midwestern state, at least, students who intend to transfer to a baccalaureate institution soon learn that the silly curricular transfer requirements (often for implied notions of rigor and "from my department or college or from no place")of many programs at 4-year institutions convince students they cannot afford to complete a degree from a CC if they want to transfer without treading water. They are told that starting rather than finishing at a CC is the goal.
  In this particular state, nearly half of the cc retention problem is early transfer.