News, Views and Careers for All of Higher Education
Sept. 26
Could the process of selecting a college actually be educational or even ... intellectual? Could one imagine the day when high school students compare approaches to first-year biology instead of rock-climbing walls, the quality of writing instruction instead of U.S. News and World Report rankings?
That’s the vision of College Speaks — a tool being created by the Education Conservancy, an organization that has been fighting the many commercial forces that have become big players in college admissions and attempting to make educational counseling central to the process. The group, led by Lloyd Thacker, has been best known in recent years for urging colleges to refuse to fill out the “reputational” surveys used by U.S. News, which are widely seen as invalid by educators. While that campaign may be having some success with college presidents — fewer of whom appear to be filling out the surveys — it hasn’t diminished the rankings’ popularity.
Recognizing that — and also responding to the requests of some rankings critics, who have said they want to put forward a positive alternative — the Education Conservancy has been working for a year on a new approach, an explicitly anti-rankings system for the college search.
An early version was presented for the first time in public Thursday at the annual meeting of the National Association for College Admission Counseling. It is a much more individualized, education focused approach, with less reliance on pure statistics, and the focus is on the fit between student and college, not the superiority of one college over another. The concept drew considerable praise from high school counselors and college admissions officers. Many said it was essential that some sort of service like this be created.
Jeff Brenzel, dean of admissions at Yale University, delivered a lengthy attack on U.S. News, talking about how Robert Morse — who directs the magazine’s college rankings — once asked him why, if the rankings are bad, colleges participate. Brenzel said he replied: “You know that you’ve got a monopoly on this game and by virtue of your monopoly you force people into this position. We submit because we have no alternative.” Brenzel added that the conversation with Morse convinced him that it is past time “to build a better alternative.”
But even amid the praise for the project, there was also skepticism, primarily about practicalities rather than the concept. Some noted that there are many other sources of college information — already taxing colleges’ time — and that many students appear to gravitate toward less educational tools. And there is also discussion about how to build a permanent infrastructure to support the project, which Thacker and others say shouldn’t stay at the Education Conservancy permanently.
How the Site Would Work
Here’s how a student would experience the College Speaks site. The first part of the search would involve the student answering questions. There are three broad sets of questions, and students might jump around, focusing on some areas more than others. The three main areas are: What do I know about myself as a student? What do I know about selecting colleges? What do I know about college admissions?
Through follow-up questions, the goal would be to help students think about whether they want or are prepared for a very rigorous education, whether they might need to place more of a value on support services, whether geography is a key factor, why large or small institutions offer particular advantages and disadvantages, and so forth.
Where possible, the students will also get resources to help them think about these questions, and data showing how the attitudes of college students and recent graduates changed over time — and how some of the qualities most prized by high school students may not be so important a few years down the road. The emphasis of the questions is on the learning environment, with questions and information about large classes vs. small, the importance of certain academic programs, internships, etc.
When a student wants to actually look for specific colleges, the site provides the “College Fit Finder.” Here, the search is based in part on the students’ answers to the questions about their educational goals, and also on some data-driven factors (grade point average). Students also can indicate whether they want to look at colleges that de-emphasize the SAT or don’t require it — and for those who don’t make those choices, they can look for institutions with certain competitiveness ranges.
In many ways, Thacker said, the site is designed to replicate some of the values of college admissions counseling; a good counselor would never start a meeting by speculating on the most prestigious college to which a student might be admitted, but would ask a lot of questions and listen. He stressed the way College Speaks would put “educational values” back at center stage.
When a student goes through the process and receives a list of colleges to consider, they will not be ranked, but they will have different kinds of information — beyond what a search would yield of a traditional college database. Students would find a syllabus sampler of courses, answers by colleges to a series of questions about their unique qualities, details about academic philosophy and so forth. In addition, a tool being built would allow a prospective student to contact a current student or faculty member at the college for a private online conversation. Colleges would also be able to add additional information, slide shows of their campus, and the more standard statistics that other Web sites provide.
Still other site features would include an “ask the experts” section where college presidents and admission deans respond to a range of questions in writing and video format, as well as data and other information about financial aid. The site would be free for students and high schools to use and would not feature advertising.
Some parts of the site — such as a rotating featured college — would be selected from among colleges providing as much information as possible, but the spot could not be purchased. Thacker predicted that the public nature of the site would encourage colleges to provide a lot of information. He said that when colleges see their peers participating, they will be motivated to join as well.
Thacker said that the site, while non-commercial, needs a business model to thrive. He said that the Education Conservancy was exploring options for the project to be adopted by a group that would respect the independence of the project and provide it with the support it needs.
Excitement and Concerns
The general reaction from those at the presentation was positive, with many talking about how the planned Web site provided a truly education-focused look at identifying colleges. People specifically praised the way the site will try to engage students, rather than just spitting out lists, and lauded such features as the syllabus samples.
There was some concern about whether students would go for it. “Will a kid coming across the site,” asked one counselor “surf right by it [after] finding too many words?” Another suggested that while the approach was sound, it might attract more student interest if it ranked colleges (for each student individually), as some students want to get a 1, 2, 3 list. (Others said that they like College Speaks for not doing that.)
There was also much discussion of how information would be gathered. Privately, some at the meeting said later that they feared that the proposed site — while educationally worthy — would involve a lot of work for colleges that are already frustrated by the volume of information requests from government agencies, accreditors and rankings.
Indeed, while rankings and the government have been asking colleges for data for years, this effort comes at a time when Web sites on the college experience are proliferating. Many public colleges and universities are joining the Voluntary System of Accountability; many private ones are participating in the University and College Accountability Network. Other new sites continue to sprout up, such as Unigo, which pitches itself as a place for students to share information about their own colleges. Generally, those raising the concern about Web site overload said that they liked the idea of College Speaks, and in fact preferred it to some existing sites, but didn’t know if they could drop the sites they already used.
Others said that they worried about how College Speaks would measure such factors as academic rigor and student support services in a comparable way. “The elephant in the room is whether colleges will be honest,” said one counselor.
Several suggested that the Education Conservancy link up with the National Survey of Student Engagement and use its data, although Thacker pointed out that not all colleges participate and that not all colleges are public with their data. He also expressed hope that more would participate in the future, and that NSSE data might be one way to go. He stressed that the version of the Web site being presented was preliminary and this meeting was being held to get feedback to improve the ideas, not to unveil a finished product.
Thacker said that he realized that the project faced hurdles, but he said he was optimistic that it could jump them. He noted that so many colleges have “a thirst” to take the admissions process back from commercial interests — and said that this effort was a way for them to do so.
Robert Massa, vice president for enrollment and college relations at Dickinson College, said he thought the effort would work. “It’s distinctive in that it forces students to think, and most tools don’t,” he said.
Yale vs. ‘U.S. News’
Among those in the audience was Morse, the U.S. News rankings director. Asked what he made of the presentation, Morse said that “the site and concept still has a considerable amount of work to think through,” adding that “I have strong doubts that the data currently exists to produce the type of search and information the creators think is possible.” At the same time, he said that “U.S. News hopes that they succeed.”
The magazine has long argued that its influence isn’t as great as colleges claim and charged that colleges use it as a scapegoat.
Brenzel, of Yale, said that the reason this project was so important was that it would challenge the magazine’s hold on the admissions process. He said that people frequently ask him why he should care about this project; “You live at the top of the rankings,” they say. But Brenzel said that gave him a particularly good view of the damage being done. He cited the “many inappropriate applications driven strictly by our brand name and prestige” and the “view that admissions game is a game.”
Citing further damage done by the rankings, he cited “the trustees and other stakeholders who obsess” over SAT scores, application counts, and yield because “they think tiny distinctions matter,” and end up asking “why is Princeton always No. 1 and what can we do about that?”
But perhaps worst, he said, is the toll on students, who must suffer from “incredible parental narcissism” and may end up — when rejected from colleges at the top of the rankings — “internalizing a judgment of their personal potential and worth.”
Brenzel said that Morse once tried to convince him to stop supporting Thacker’s efforts. But Brenzel said that U.S. News rankings have been “the greatest amplifier” of many of the negative trends in admissions in the last 20 years and it was time to create a new system. It is, he said, “a moral obligation.”
Want it on paper? Print this page.
Know someone who’d be interested? Forward this story.
Want to stay informed? Sign up for free daily news e-mail.
Advertisement
I continue to find, and be frustrated, by the lack of admissions counseling directed at career counseling more than school counseling.How can a student make a good directional decision on a post secondary school’s courses when the career the student intends to enter has not been explored?
Charles Gross, Managing Director at New Growth Partners, LLC, at 7:45 am EDT on September 26, 2008
Perhaps when colleges start being a bit more honest about what other schools think of them, the size of their endowments, and what happens to their alums, nobody will buy USN. Until then, a would-be college student would be an idiot to ask a school “how much would I learn?”
Larry, at 7:45 am EDT on September 26, 2008
With the millions of websites out there, many claiming to be the authorities on higher education, this group will need to publish their findings on paper. They also need to put it on magazine racks at the same time U.S. News comes out with it’s rankings. Until this happens for several years, and the rankings of “College Speaks” gets coverage in the press, U.S. News will continue to dominate the rankings. Unfortunately, websites like this are not widely read by the general public. They need credibility, and more than anything, need the general population to utilize them, not just those of us in Higher Education.
Maggie, at 8:50 am EDT on September 26, 2008
To borrow some of Larry’s language, as long as it feels comfortable asking for $150,000 to $200,000 to cover the costs of a four-year education, a college “would be an idiot” not to expect students and parents to to pay attention to the school’s prestige.
dm, at 9:15 am EDT on September 26, 2008
One index of quality might be a compilation where college professors send their own children to college. These parents know what goes on inside a campus that affects students.
College instructors are the last people who would rely on U.S. News for information in where to send their own children. The high prestige universities are great places to get a graduate degree, but professors often see that the best undergraduate education lies elsewhere.
Prof Ed, at 9:15 am EDT on September 26, 2008
US News could easily modify their process to provide greater validity if they wanted; it is clear that they have no interest in doing so. The largest single measure on their scale is reputation. Now tell me what an enrollment services director filling out the survey in a small college in Utah know about the recent academic quality of a small liberal arts college in South Carolina, and how that school’s quality, especially now, not five years ago, compares with a similar college in North Dakota. This survey is about name recognition, not quality. Further, it is a lagging indicator. Schools that were good quality 20 years ago but have gone steadily downhill since still benefit from name recognition, while schools who have made huge improvements are still ranked lower.
Allen, at 9:45 am EDT on September 26, 2008
Many heartfelt congratulations to both Lloyd Thacker and Jeff Brenzel for leading this “moral” campaign. If we are to move beyond the rankings and testings games, and back to education and research, we all need to end our institutional complicity with these invidious beauty contests.
Joseph A. Soares, Associate Professor at Wake Forest University, at 10:20 am EDT on September 26, 2008
For those who take this business *really* seriously, there are always the Google college rankings:
http://collegiateway.org/news/2008-google-college-rankings
RJO, at 10:45 am EDT on September 26, 2008
Form the piece above: “The magazine has long argued that its influence isn’t as great as colleges claim and charged that colleges use it as a scapegoat.”
I am no fan of the US News rankings, but this statement is absolutely correct. We (in higher ed) worry way too much over something that makes near zero impact on the size of our schools’ applicant pools, or who chooses us over a competitor.
Also, more accurately stated, the US News rankings are less “prestige” rankings and more rankings based on resources. Either way, they is NOT educational quality. They are NOT, as advertised, “American’s Best Colleges.”
DDVA, at 11:05 am EDT on September 26, 2008
To ProfEd: The measure you suggest would not be a good indicator of anything. Many professors get a perk as a college employee called free tuition for dependents. The perk effects the decision making, so that educational quality is not the only factor. Further, the professors that do not recieve this perk may be choosing to send their student to a less costly school.
To Larry and dm: I think you have both missed the point. Given that a student may be looking at ten schools that all cost $150K to $200K, which one offers the best education?! Education is still highly correlated ot success so “they would have to be and idiot NOT to factor learning into the equation". Or perhaps that just proves that they really are smarter.
R.F., at 11:48 am EDT on September 26, 2008
When colleges refuse to fill out Common Data Sets or other information for US News, they are able to hide valuable information that students and families want to know. I want to be able to see how many women are accepted versus men. I want to see how many get in early decision or early action. I want to know the size of the endowment and how many alumni donate money. This is all information which many colleges want to hide.
Meredith S, at 1:20 pm EDT on September 26, 2008
And of course universities hardly do any hiring based upon prestige of PhD alone and what that says to grad students or competing universities/departments. It’s totally ridiculous, but it goes on all the time. So why do they complain about US News?
Righto, at 3:40 pm EDT on September 26, 2008
Ever notice how no one from Harvard, Princeton, or Yale speaks out against rankings? I thought these institutions were supposed to be bastions of intellectualism, not perpetuators and advocates of bogus research. Further evidence that ever since they have been founded, they have always been full of it...
PS, at 5:25 pm EDT on September 26, 2008
While imperfect, as a parent of a high school senior, I rely on the college data in College Navigator, on the US Dept of Ed website. Taken from IPEDS, it carries no editorial taint, I can do easy comparisons on how many graduate in each major, what average costs to expect, and all kinds of detail on campus safety.
Who needs yet another website?
Parent of High School Senior, at 6:15 pm EDT on September 26, 2008
For those of us in the profession spending the majority of our time supporting higher-need, first-generation students, the notion that rankings should mean anything internally to a college is uncomfortable.
Today, many colleges have no choice but to be concerned about US News, not because of what the guide has done to college choice, but what it has done to their academic communities. When an academic community begins strategic planning linked to rankings is now clear what happens: the institution’s mission begins to suffer, quickly ending up in the second chair. When mission is understood to be broken, these institutions either seek a correction, or choose to ignore the problem.
It is easy to argue, for example, that the recent changes in need-based financal aid at many highly-selective private colleges represents a internal strategic correction, not some type of new desire to become grouded in a more diverse classroom setting. I am sure that these institutions would advise us that they have always been grounded, but they have also told us, per their own statements of concern and distress, that they have been involved in a rankings arms race. This race, again per their own words, forced them away from diversity, away from service to needy students and families, and away from portions of their missions that note beliefs in the goodness of spreading education beyond their own academic communities.
By increasing investments in need-based financial aid and, possibly, maintaining well-directed and competitive merit-based financial aid, our Nation’s flagship institutions begin the process of re-grounding themselves. Members of these communities can today proudly speak about what they believe regarding higher-need students and families, they can point to real action and real progress. They will soon experience mission-centered student outcomes existing well outside trappings of rankings, power, wealth, and the SAT. These outcomes will reinforce their original decision, continue to ground their communities in what is truly important, and, eventually, serve all of us involved in this wonderful profession.
There will be one type of questionable institution left when the dust settles: the highly-selective expensive college that does nothing. These communities will exist well away from those of us that never moved away from mission to begin with, and live even further away from those whom are working to fix the money and wealth-centered educatonal lapses of the past fifty years.
We are all part of a revolution not seen since the beginning of the need-based financial aid programs. Picking a side in this student and family-centered financial debate is not really an option.
Chris Hanlon, AVP & Director of Financial Aid at Stevenson University, at 11:45 am EDT on September 27, 2008
To build on Maggie’s comment, it is imperative that websites such as these are created and supported by creditable data and organizations. While attending NACAC, I noticed a new website by AACSB, www.bestbizschools.com. AACSB is the primary accrediting agency for university business schools. I always suggest my kids attend these schools. Similar to College Speaks, the AACSB site allows users to search AACSB schools only. I particularly like the site because it is backed by such a creditable source and does not contain any type of advertising. The site also features AACSB degree programs and does not charge the school to do so. It seems very unbiased and reliable.
Susan, High School Counselor, at 2:40 pm EDT on September 27, 2008
If you had to choose a spouse or partner for life, would you like to use a publication ranking them by income, IQ scores, and reputation as reported by others who have never met the person? As a culture, we love consulting consumer guidebooks and lists for a shortcut method to choosing electronics and cars; the college search requires a more thoughtful, personal and time consuming approach. It can’t be reduced to rankings with numerical values when it requires starting with who the individual student is and why they are going to college, their needs and desires, and learning styles and interests. This self inventory is the start for finding colleges that “fit” for the individual, instead of starting with the assumption that only the “Top Twenty” on the USNWR list have any value. This ranking guide is not going away any more than the swimsuit edition of Sports Illustrated is leaving us—they sell big. But their value—or lack of it— in the college search process can certainly be diminished if students, parents and counselors go after fit, rather than name recognition and the EC/CollegeSpeak project should be commended for attempting to find a tool to refocus the college search process.
Marty O’Connell, Executive Director at Colleges That Change Lives, at 9:45 pm EDT on September 27, 2008
I believe (future) students base their decisions on opinions rather than facts. That’s what I love about Unigo, it gives great insight in real world views from real world people. Not just the static data all those rankings will show you. The anti-rankings College Speaks would use are rankings, too. Just based on a different set of variables.
Johan Merida, at 11:15 am EDT on September 28, 2008
What would be the motivation for a student to attend an exceedingly rigorous program from an unknown school? While the student might gain great personal satisfaction, who’s going to buy his groceries after he graduates? The whole ratings game consists of opinions based on selective criteria. Very good if Podunk State Unversity comes out on top of some rating but who cares? I somehow suspect the Ivy League schools aren’t doing a shoulder check to see who’s passing them.
Dennis Ruhl, at 1:25 pm EDT on September 28, 2008
I think if schools took the time to engage with the community/parents/prospective students and listen to their needs and further enhance their core mission, then they do not need to look at the US News Rankings because it would be irrelevant. Buzz or spinning half-truths will never get you the results you seek. Word-of-mouth will make you more relevant to your students. And Word-of-mouth can only develop if one takes to the time to listen to their needs.
JLee from Canada, at 2:25 pm EDT on October 9, 2008
Advertisement
or search for jobs directly.
Associate Director, MGE/Tri-Con MS Program — Graduate School
Reports to:
Director, Graduate ... see job
Everest Institute, a respected member of the Corinthian Colleges’ network of schools, is dedicated to helping students ... see job
Columbus State Community College invests in employee development by providing numerous resources, partnerships, training and ... see job
Job Summary Roosevelt University seeks an Admission Counselor for the Admission Office at the Chicago ... see job
UNIVERSITY OF LA VERNE Admission Counselor, Office of Admission #2960 The University of La Verne has an opening for an ... see job
Posting Number: FY09130187
Division: EM — Enrollment Management
... see job
College of Staten Island City University of New York Assistant Vice President for Enrollment Management The College of Staten ... see job
Designs and implements college readiness programming for students in grades seven through twelve. see job
College of Notre Dame of Maryland seeks an Admissions Recruiter for the School of Pharmacy. Under the general direction of ... see job
Everest Institute, a respected member of the Corinthian Colleges’ network of schools, is dedicated to helping students ... see job
Beauty Contest
For all the bells and whistles added and recalibrated over the years to give it a veneer of serious measurement, the U. S. News rankings remain no more or less than what they started out to be: a beauty contest that gauges prestige, not performance. It is the news magazine’s version of the Sport Illustrated swimsuit issue, appealing to an audience much more interested in the educational equivalent of sex appeal than fashion statement. In that sense, this proposal may somewhat miss the point as if ESPN Magazine were to announce that it is countering SI’s annual with an issue featuring models who not only fill out a suit nicely but also swim well and carry on a good conversation.
Edward Hershey, Principal at Edward Hershey & Associates, at 7:05 am EDT on September 26, 2008