It’s not really fair to compare these two populations, because they are too economically and academically different. Instead, we need to compare students who transfer to 4-year programs from 2-year programs, vs. those who go directly to 4-year programs from high school.

Prior research shows that these two groups tend to complete 4-year programs at the same rate (e.g. “Academic intensity, attendance patterns, and bachelor’s degree attainment,” US Dept of Ed, 1999).

Author, No Sucker Left Behind, at 8:30 am EDT on October 1, 2008

Using this logic, I wonder what the “penalty” is against for students entering high school. If high school destroys the chances of most of its students for completing college, maybe they would be better off starting at a 2 yr college and even a 4 yr one instead of having to going to high school first.

sk, at 9:30 am EDT on October 1, 2008

Several Points for the Author of the Study

I am glad to see our article was the catalyst for more debate and consideration of this issue. Several things to note: (a) When we compare students across two- and four-year institutions, we take into account the students’ backgrounds and previous academic preparation. In other words, we compare students with the SAME family incomes, high school preparation, and ACT scores. The only difference is one is at a community college and the other is at a four-year university. As such, we are not “lumping your daughter and your brother-in-law in the same bin” (Cliff’s terminology). [We go a step further to account for selection bias by instrumenting for college choice by using proximity. This is just another statistical technique we use to make sure we are comparing apples to apples.]

(b) I would caution against comparing transfer students to students who originally began at four-year institutions to make conclusions about community colleges. This is like comparing apples to oranges. The community college transfer student has already demonstrated him/herself to be different than the average college student. He/She is likely a very hardworker, intelligent, perhaps more motivated, and perhaps has better access to information and advising than the average student. In my teaching as a professor, I know that I would always bet on the student who had to overcome some obstacles to get here than the student who was handed entry on a silver platter.

© Looking at the outcomes of students who have already completed 10 credits, though useful, answers a different sort of question. Yes, when we look at students who have had early success in college, we don’t see as much difference between two-year college entrants and four-year college entrants. The problem is that MOST students drop or stop out of college in their first or second semester BEFORE they ever reach 10 credits. And the fact is that more students seem to drop out of community college in the early terms than at four-year universities EVEN after comparing students with the same backgrounds. If we want to improve college persistence, we are going to have to figure out how to address this early attrition. While some of this may be due to students realizing that college is a bad match for them, we can see across the country that some open admissions colleges are better than others in retaining their students. They must be doing something right, and others could learn from them.

Finally, one thing that did not come out in the Inside Higher Ed’s article is that we (the authors of the study) are really trying to speak to two audiences: (1) The policymakers who think they can force more students to start at community colleges and have the same proportion complete a bachelor’s degree. Given how under-funded our community colleges are and the fact that many states have not streamlined the transfer process, we know that there are important ramifications for putting even more pressure on the community colleges to handle the bulk of the surge in college-age students (i.e., the Baby Boom Echo).(2) Although community colleges often get a bad rap for having low transfer and completion rates, once accounting for differences in the students across two-year and four-year institutions, the gap in completion is a lot smaller. However, this does not absolve the community colleges of their responsibilities because the gap is not zero.

Bridget Long, at 9:35 am EDT on October 1, 2008

Of course

Of course students who begin at community colleges are less likely to earn a bachelor’s degree. Researchers MUST acknowledge that the majority of students who begin at a community college were not in a position to be attend a four-year institution. Perhaps their academic records were not appropriate or there were other reasons. It typically is not be a CHOICE to attend a community college but the only option available. Thus, for the students who are successful, the community college make it possible. The truth is that America should celebrate the successes of community colleges that are able to transform those students who were initially “not acceptable” to the universities and who ultimately become baccalaureate holders.

Linda Hagedorn, Professor and Director at Iowa State University, at 9:35 am EDT on October 1, 2008

Tuition

I wonder, too, if an increased number of enrollees this year at community colleges reflects the reality of the vast differences in tuition costs — that we will see an increase in transfer and success from two-year to four-year colleges because of the need to save costs.

Steve, at 9:55 am EDT on October 1, 2008

ommunity College Research

Well said Dan (President at Mount Wachusett Community College, at 9:30 am EDT on ),

I question the reliability and validity of the “research” and would have students looking to identify the confounding and unexplored variables in (or lacking in)this work.

This article will make an excellent topic for a critical thinking discussion and research analysis/critique in my classes.

As you suggest, perhaps the author (s) should spend a little more time understanding the “subjects” of their research before attempting to extrapolate.

CJProf, Professor at Bristol Community College, at 11:45 am EDT on October 1, 2008

College Coaching

The key to a succesful 2+2 program is to have the student committ to both colleges when he/she enrolls in their first year. If they have all of their courses mapped out for all four years (Assuming there is institutional articulation for credit transfer purposes) then they are better able to understand the path that needs to be followed fin order to achieve their intended goal.

Additionally, students need to have progress updates so that they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. These updates are also good coaching opportunities that allows the college to communicate with their students to help keep them motivated. As they complete thier two year program it is critical that there is a discussion with the student to make sure that they complete all of thier application processes and then select a start date for thier final two years at the four year institution.

You can call it hand holding, but it works.

Bob Barker, President at Barker Education, at 12:20 pm EDT on October 1, 2008

Penalty for starting at a Community College

I found this article very interesting as I went to a community college before transferring to Oregon State many years ago. In looking back, I think that I went to Central Oregon Community College because I was not really ready to make the ‘break’ all at once. I was interested in a career in geology but there were few jobs at the time so I went to the community college while I was trying to decide what to do. I did pay a ‘penalty’ in that not all of my credits applied to my major and I found it hard to adjust to the larger classes and the bigger school. However, I value my time at the community college and believe that it helped me prepare for Oregon State. Dan

Dan Vice, Instructor at Penn State Hazleton, at 12:35 pm EDT on October 1, 2008

Comm College vs 4-yr schools

What is there about the “open door policy” does not compute? At the community college, you cannot refuse entry to any potential student, even illegal aliens.

We do not require ACT or SAT scores. They may have taken tests, but might not be high enough to use. Students are tested and then placed in courses recommended by the test.

Many students do not come to community colleges with a four-year degree in mind. They want to upgrade skills, learn a language, improve English speaking/listening skills for their respective jobs.

Often students test into remedial courses/English and Math. Why? Why haven’t they learned them in high school or grammar school? I cannot say, but they probably did not take any “college prep” classes in high school, but chose to do “school to work” programs.

Most students cannot be full time because they are working a full-time job to help support their families.

I work in and teach in an urban environment where people assume that students are somehow not as smart or intelligent as those in outlying areas. I beg to differ. As a general rule, students will work up to the abilities that you expect from them.

Yes, many were not ready or willing to look at a possible bachelor’s degree when they arrived. But, have found they are able to look forward to a four-year degree and more after achieving more than 40 credits.

They may be the tortoises, but slow and sure does often win the race.

Dr. Alice M. Rainey, Career Advisor/Adj. Prof., at 1:50 pm EDT on October 1, 2008

We need a practical approach to solve the problem

The debate on community colleges enforcing a “class structure” and reducing the probability of baccalaureate degree attainment is not new. However, between 1998 and 2005, enrollment (headcount) in community and technical colleges in Ohio has gone up by over 25% compared to a 3% increase at University main campuses. It does not seem likely that this trend can be reversed and students with a goal of baccalaureate degree attainment can be directed to four-year institutions only. Helping the students transfer successfully would be a more realistic approach to solve the problem. From the policy perspective, exploring factors that are associated with successful transfer and supporting community colleges to create environments that facilitate transfer can help many more students achieve their goals of a baccalaureate degree attainment. Looking at solutions such as providing incentives to attain a minimum threshold of credit hours in the first year, or creating transfer advising centers to guide students through the complex and often frustrating process of credit transfers can improve transfer rates.Rather than highlighting the barriers students face at community colleges, research aimed at solving the problems can help the policymakers as well as the students.

Santanu Bandyopadhyay, Director of IR at Zane State College, at 4:35 pm EDT on October 1, 2008

The Undergraduate Degree

The 4 year undergraduate degree (B.A. or B.S.) is the hardest to obtain. Harder than the Masters Degree; harder than the Doctorate. Why? Because of the large number of class hours required and the many requirements that must be met.

Community Colleges should be encouraged to provide a start down the path toward an undergraduate degree. But, they also can serve to help students decide what they really want to do. In particular, once in the workforce, it becomes increasingly difficult for one to embark upon and complete an undergraduate degree. It can be done, but it is very difficult — students should know that going in!

W L Schultz, at 2:35 pm EDT on October 2, 2008

From the Author... Why is there a gap?

I’ve gotten a few emails in response to the paper. Thank you to those who have read it and engaged in debate and discussion about what it all means [the paper is free through libraries and on my website]. Interestingly, many of the comments posted after the article are addressed in the paper. Remember, when we compare students across two- and four-year institutions, we take into account the students’ backgrounds and previous academic preparation. In other words, we compare students with the SAME family incomes, high school preparation, and ACT scores, etc. The only difference is one is at a community college and the other is at a open admissions four-year university. We still find a gap.

A few of you have asked why we think there is a gap in completion between students who begin in at a community college versus four-year school. First, let me say that we thought it was worthwhile to take stock of what the gap currently is given that so much of the cited research on this is based on cohorts who graduated high school over 15 years ago. However, this paper is only a starting point. The key question is what do we do with the information after we’ve identified where the “leaks” are in the educational pipeline.

Just briefly, I think the gap we find is probably due to a combination of things: (1) Lack of support services at CCs. I don’t write this to outright blame CCs, and in fact I think a lot of the problem is lack of funding. States keep adding to the responsibilities of CCs without ever giving them the funding to provide the necessary services. Also, those services that are available do not always reach those who need them due to the very decentralized nature of most CCs (if, as a student, I am only on campus 2 nights a week, how would I even know about a particular support program?). On the other hand, I know first hand of CCs that have revamped their support services and had a huge impact on increasing student persistence. Most CCs could do a better job serving their students, and so the blame cannot all be on others.

(2) Too much flexibility for some students. There is a school of thought that structure and encouraging students to attend full-time increases their chances for completion. This may be better even if students have to take out loans to do it. I don’t think the research is definitive about this, but it is worth exploring if it makes sense for some students.

(3) Too little information about how to transfer and which credits do/do not transfer. There are too many stories about students tranferring to a 4yr only to find that half of their credits don’t count. There are also plenty of stories of students being diverted into certificate or vocational programs.

(4) Remediation. In other work, I found that at some of these CCs, 60% of the incoming classes are placed into remediation. In Ohio, you can also complete your remediation at a 4yr, but there is a question of who does it better. Actually, I’ve found suggestive evidence that maybe it is best to have the courses at a CC, but this is far from strong evidence. It is certainly worth considering the role of remediation.

Just my 2 cents. Of course, there are lots of other theories and reasons too. But let’s face fact: All of higher education needs to do a better job (along with other stakeholds). My co-author and I continue to study why the gap exists. Michal has a huge project going on in CA, and I still have a number of projects ongoing in OH, FL, and TN.

Bridget Long, at 11:00 am EDT on October 3, 2008

Not only did I graduate from a community college at 19, and went on to graduate from a large state university, but I also earned an MBA.

I now live in a large metropolitan city where I am well-known and active in a variety of city activities. Also, I own my own business.

Community college was a good transition for me and I went straight through and graduated with ah AA. Where I attended it was also cost effective.

JHB, at 12:00 pm EDT on October 6, 2008

Community Colleges

Not all kids are mature enough to go away to school right out of high school, and let’s face it, nowadays, most kids want to go to college away from home. I know two young ladies who did not do well at a four-year college and both came home, enrolled in a community college, and are doing wonderfully well. They both intend to get their four-year degree from a local four-year college as opposed to going away, once they complete all their courses at the community college. It all depends on the kid.

Kathy Powers, at 1:05 pm EDT on October 8, 2008

Not Understanding Education

As a community college counselor in northeast Ohio, I have observed something else that I believe affects degree completion. However, it is not readily observable nor is it quantifiable; and therefore easily overlooked by researchers. Many of the students I have worked with do not have a good understanding of what bachelor degree level education is all about. They fail to appreciate that a liberal arts base for their major has much value. They are not prepared to deal with process, and are quickly put off by the length of time a degree takes. They have many misconceptions about higher education and expect anything from getting a Bachelor Degree at the community college (in 2 years) to transferring into Master’s Degree work immediately after their Associate Degree. Tangentially, younger students frequently have not been challenged on the high school level and simply are not prepared to work hard. This set of attitudes, or naiveté about higher education crosses all the typical delineations used in most research such socio-economic levels, parents’ educational level, gender, age, or college first attended.

I strongly suspect that this type of student will not persist in higher education; irrespective of where they start. The naiveté and impatience must surely cause a student to “run out of steam” long before degree completion.

Why is all this more apparent with transfer students? Is it because students who are the opposite of what I described above simply go to four-year schools and do what it is required; and the others choose a community college because they are hesitant about committing? If my hunch is correct, then we should be talking about improving high school with regard to rigor and college counseling. We should also help parents understand that higher education is more than job preparation. That means part of the national dialogue should go beyond pushing career/technical education. And finally, it means that the real penalty is not starting in a community college, but in suffering a disconnect between how education is viewed and what education requires.

Tom Vandermeulen, Counselor at Lakeland Community College, at 5:30 pm EDT on October 16, 2008