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The New Reverse Transfer

February 18, 2009

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Stephanie Jamiot is a community college transfer student, but not the kind one might expect. Instead of following the steady flow of students who move from two-year institutions to four-year institutions, she is one of a growing number of so-called “reverse transfers” who leave four-year universities to attend community college.

Cuyahoga Community College in Cleveland -- Ohio's largest two-year institution and the one Jamiot currently attends -- had an 11 percent increase in the number of “reverse transfers” this spring compared to last. These students mostly come from public and private institutions around Ohio. Nationally, the American Association of Community Colleges notes that a third of all two-year students previously attended a four-year institution. The recession has led to surge in community college enrollments this year, and some experts believe these "reverse transfers" are an important and sometimes overlooked portion of that growing student body at two-year institutions.

Last year, 210 students came from Cleveland State University, the largest group of transfers to Cuyahoga. Among other public institutions, 197 came from Kent State University and 150 came from the University of Akron. Sixty-one students even came from the state’s flagship, Ohio State University. Another 61 came from Baldwin Wallace College, the private institution from which more students transfer to Cuyahoga than from any other. Twenty-nine and 14 students came from two other private institutions, John Carroll University and Case Western Reserve University respectively.

Jamiot matriculated as a pre-med student at Wright State University -- located outside of Dayton, Ohio -- in 2006 with the ambition of becoming an anesthesiologist. After completing most of her general education requirements and starting her pre-med curriculum, she had a change of heart and became a nursing major, wanting to pursue a career as a certified registered nurse anesthetist (CRNA). The transition between programs at Wright State, however, was a difficult process for Jamiot, and she was distressed to find that most of the science credits she had earned as part of her pre-med track would not count towards her nursing major.

“A number of courses that I would have had to take were going to be repetitive,” Jamiot said. “With of all that I was going to have to stay another [a fifth] year to complete the program. Also, it just wasn’t the best fit for me. My advisor and I didn’t always get along.”

After two years of credit difficulties at Wright State, Jamiot decided to move back home with her parents outside of Cleveland and attend Cuyahoga, where she started last fall. Most of her credits from Wright State transferred seamlessly, and she plans to graduate with an associate degree in nursing next year and eventually finish up her baccalaureate degree from Cleveland State before becoming a CRNA. In addition to saving tuition money -- $219 per credit hour at Wright State versus $80 per credit hour at Cuyahoga -- she said she is more engaged and motivated at the community college.

“My largest classes at Wright State had 300 people, but my largest classes at Cuyahoga maybe have 100, if that,” Jamiot said. “You get to know your professors better in this setting. Here, I’ve gotten to know a lot more of the nurses in my program and become closer to them. At Wright State, I never got the opportunity to sit down with nurses and watch them do what they do.”

She acknowledged that some might view her choice as a step down, but she says she is getting a better education.

“I do have some friends who wondered why I was going back home [to community college], but when I got the chance to explain my situation to them they were very supportive and told me to do what was best for me,” Jamiot said. “Right now, I think a lot of the reason [students reverse transfer] is financially motivated, and a two-year program is going to cost you a whole lot less. Then, once you get your associate degree, getting into and adjusting to a four-year college is a lot easier.”

Though Jamiot did not cite financial hardships directly, Cuyahoga officials said most of the “reverse transfers” they welcome have made the decision to come to a community college because attending a four-year institution is no longer economically feasible for them. Peter Ross, Cuyahoga vice president for enrollment, said his institution has taken advantage of this by actively marketing the college’s affordability in comparison to some of the state’s public universities. He added that he expects the number of “reserve transfers” to continue to rise as the economy worsens.

“I’ve been in the transfer world of higher education for about 25 years, and I’ve never seen numbers like this at a community college,” Ross said of the college’s 11 percent increase in reverse transfers. “I think we’re going to see students who were traditionally four-year college bound -- either public or private -- come to us to for foundation courses at more reasonable rates before moving on.”

Still, he admitted there were some challenges with these students. As with most students at the community college level, there remains a concern about those who abandon their programs before earning an associate degree. Reverse transfers, he said, may need even more counseling to ensure they know how their credits are being handled at their new institution. If this process is long and confusing, he noted that some of these students may chose not complete their degree.

“We want these students to leave here with a degree,” Ross said of reverse transfers. “Leaving us without getting an associate degree impacts their ability to go on and get a baccalaureate degree later. In their mind, we’re a stepping stone. Still, it’s very real those students might not get an associate degree. They got side-tracked once – in that they came here from somewhere else – and who knows if that’ll happen in the future?”

This year, with such a high number of reverse transfers, Cuyahoga started its first formal group counseling sessions and meetings for these students. In the past, Ross said counselors met with these students if assistance was request. Now, he said the college’s more proactive engagement of these students is meant to help streamline what is often a lesser-known and confusing process for both the transfers and those at the institution.

Bonita C. Jacobs, executive director of the National Institute for the Study of Transfer Students at the University of North Texas, said, in spite of these difficulties, “reverse transfer” may be more likely to ultimately transfer onward to a four-year institution after earning their associate degree than those of their peers who have only attended a community college.

“When asked why some community college students don’t transfer onward, my colleagues will often say that life happened to them,” Jacobs said, noting that only 20 percent of associate degree graduates end up transferring to four-year institutions. “Those who don’t transfer often say these institutions seem like big, scary places, where it’s easy to get lost. I would think the opposite for [reverse transfers]. Since they’ve already gone there, maybe some of the mystique is gone. Most probably always knew they were going to go back eventually.”

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Comments on The New Reverse Transfer

  • Posted by Judith on February 18, 2009 at 7:45am EST
  • My daughter finished her freshman year at Smith with a B- average and, upon being told not to bother to major in math, took time off to do remedial math work at a community college, intending to return to Smith. One day she said to me, "I'm not going back to Smith. They think that if I'm not already good at something, I shouldn't bother to learn it. At community college, the teacher tells us how we will use what we're studying in the future." She got an AS with honors and is now back in a four-year school (not Smith).
    Community colleges teach.

  • Posted by Jeff on February 18, 2009 at 8:30am EST
  • Not everyone needs or wants a 4-year degree. The article makes it sound as though a 20% transfer rate from 2- to 4-year institutions is a bad thing, or at least lacking. Most of the Dept of Labor stats that I see show that about 80% of "good jobs" (pay a decent salary and have prospects) require at least some postsecondary education. But only about 20% require a 4-year degree or higher. If all community college students went on to get 4-year degrees, who would draw my blood at the hospital? Who would fix my car? And would they all find jobs and be happy with them?

  • Posted by Audrey on February 18, 2009 at 11:10am EST
  • Community Colleges are definitely the way to go. They had such a bad rep when I was in high school, I never even bothered, I went the traditional route and earned a Masters. However, now that I am in the professional world, I am able to see how far an Associates can take you. I have a friend that recently completed and is going back for the 4 year but after 2 years she already had 1 degree to add to her resume. Not to mention the money saved!!

  • Posted by Gregory B Peters on February 18, 2009 at 12:45pm EST
  • LOL at the use of the word "New" in the title. It sure isn't new to CC's. It is good they are doing counseling, most reverse are in for a shock when they find out their credits doesn't transfer, or they have to take a placement test, and yes you do have to take a math class to get a AA/AS, and that D's do not transfer, and that you have to do a minimum for 30 credits on campus to get a degree. I also think that those on campus with four year degrees already should be part of this intervention also!

  • the bad rap
  • Posted by bradley bleck , instructor at Spokane Falls CC on February 18, 2009 at 12:45pm EST
  • For many, attending a CC creates the notion that the student had to settle for something less than was available at some four-year institution. Why someone thinks it's better to pay three, four or ten times as much in tuition to be taught, often, by the same faculty who also teach at the local CC (when it comes to adjuncts in many areas) or by a GA or TA who may be new, or may not even want to teach, as opposed to someone who wants to teach and has been doing so for years or decades, is beyond me. Parents and students get sucked into the mystique of an institution without any sense of who the person in the classroom doing the teaching is and whether they are worth the money.

    Having attended a CC in the late 1970s in Washington state, I can attest that mine was, in essence, the proverbial "high school with ashtrays." But having taught in them since the early 1990s, I can attest that such is rarely the case any longer. In looking at first year composition alone, I know our standards, expectations and students match up well with the standards, expectations and students of the R1 down the road 90 miles, the local regional state university, and the private institutions in the area. Heck, as I noted, we share many of the same adjuncts teaching the same classes.

    Unfortunately, the perception of the past is all too often the reality of the present. Community colleges are clearly not the best for everyone, whether they want an AA, AS or BA or BS, but those who dismiss them because they are community colleges, and for no other reason, are often just flushing their money away.

  • Math and science
  • Posted by Jane on February 18, 2009 at 12:50pm EST
  • I agree with Judith. At 4-year institutions, math and science professors tend to believe only some people can do math and science; if a student stumbles, the professor thinks "aha, I have identified one I should discourage." At the community colleges, math and science professors believe everyone can do math and science; if a students stumbles, the professor picks the student up, dusts the student off, and says "let's get going again."

  • Posted by Rachel on February 18, 2009 at 12:55pm EST
  • I agree with Jeff. I'm completing a master's in higher education (yes, you can study higher education) and I think there are far too many students completing four-year degrees because there are not enough middle and upper-middle class jobs to justify the investment. While it is said that "only 24%" of Americans have a BA/BS, perhaps 24% is too much. Part of the problem now is that Americans perceive a 4-year degree as "a right". A right to what? A mountain of student loan debt that doesn't get you anymore head financially than if you held an associate degree instead? I think post-secondary and higher education is important, but I question the extent to which our public college and universities are interested and actually effective in the social mobility of its students, especially amongst faculty in the liberal arts. There's almost this indifference amongst faculty that students will graduate someday and that they actually need a job that pays at least $20 an hour to make a decent living.

  • Why - marketing 101 - listen to the customer
  • Posted by Don Kassner , President at Andrew Jackson University on February 18, 2009 at 2:35pm EST
  • Two messages should come through loud and clear

    1.) Students want the personal service that they get a smaller, student focused institutions. CC have one job, to educate. Tradtional University's put students needs third - behind research grants and faculty needs.

    2.) Price matters

    We need to wake up and listen to what our students are saying. It's time to make college better and less expensive.

  • Phi Theta Kappa prepares students for transfer
  • Posted by West Williamson , Director, Chapter Relations at Phi Theta Kappa Honor Society on February 18, 2009 at 3:15pm EST
  • This reverse transfer doesn't surprise me at all. Many of these students should have opted for a community college initially, but likely didn't consider it as an option. Attending a community college, and achieving eligibility for membership in Phi Theta Kappa, can prepare a student for successful transfer. The honors, leadership, and service learning offered by a Phi That Kappa chapter provides students with the skills and abilities to transfer successfully. And our web-based transfer planning program, CollegeFish.org, gives students access to the scholarships and resources to complete a baccalaureate degree without a mountain of debt.

  • Not So Fast
  • Posted by Brian , PhD at University of Virginia on February 18, 2009 at 7:15pm EST
  • Community college education is not as cost effective as the posts here and popular myth would have us a believe. They are certainly fine institutions who do much for the students who attend them and the economy who needs them, but when you take into consideration, as one research study has, that CC students average close to five years at community college before transferring (taking with them a years worth of transferable-non development credit) coupled with foregone income, the price of attendance is near that of two years at a public four-year institution. That said, there are ways that we can make myth of cost effectiveness for these students a reality

    Additionally, you can like or love community colleges and still have critiques concerning the apparent social stratification role they play in society. I would be fine with them so long as affluent white students were funneled to them in the same ways that low-income and students-of-color are, and if transfer rates among students who desired to transfer were above 30+%. While they have come a long way in terms of quality and providing access, history details that they were intended to steer students away from more prestigious universities (U of Chicago) with a clear class and racial component to the steering. This history plays a great role than we often acknowledge.

  • Response to Rachel
  • Posted by Brian , PhD at Virginia on February 18, 2009 at 7:15pm EST
  • I agree with Jeff. I’m completing a master’s in higher education (yes, you can study higher education) and I think there are far too many students completing four-year degrees because there are not enough middle and upper-middle class jobs to justify the investment. TELL THAT TO THE LOW-INCOME STUDENTS AND STUDENTS-OF-COLOR WHO GRADUATE WITH BAs AT RATES NOT NEARLY COMPARABLE TO AFFLUENT STUDENTS AND WHITE STUDENTS. ITS NOT A MATTER OF TOO MANY DEGREES ITS A MATTER OF DEGREES CONCENTRATED IN CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHICS. ALSO, ANY LABOR ECONOMIST WILL TELL YOU THAT THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH BAs READY TO ASSUME ROLES IN THE TECHNOLOGY-KNOWLEDGE ECONOMY, AND CONVERSELY THERE EXISTS A GLUT OF UNDER-EDUCATED UNDER-SKILLED LABORERS (those without some type of post-sec education, particularly BAs). SO THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM THAT CREATED THE OVERSUPPLY OF CHEAP LABOR NOW MUST DEAL WITH THE RECKONING THAT IS THE CHANGING ECONOMY. While it is said that “only 24%” of Americans have a BA/BS, perhaps 24% is too much. Part of the problem now is that Americans perceive a 4-year degree as “a right". IF NOT A RIGHT, THEN AT LEAST AN EQUITABLE OBLIGATION GIVEN THE FEDERAL AND STATE SUBSIDIES, AS WELL AS THE TAX RELIEF, THESE INSTITUTIONS ENJOY. ADDITIONALLY, WHY SHOULD A LOW-INCOME FAMILY WHO PAYS THEIR TAXES AND ATTEND AN INSTITUTION WITH LESS RESOURCES ULTIMATELY SUBSIDIZE AFFLUENT STUDENTS TO ATTEND THE FLAGSHIP? A right to what? A mountain of student loan debt that doesn’t get you anymore head financially than if you held an associate degree instead? I think post-secondary and higher education is important, but I question the extent to which our public college and universities are interested and actually effective in the social mobility of its students, especially amongst faculty in the liberal arts. LIBERAL ARTS MY FRIEND MAY BE THE BEST FRIEND THESE STUDENTS HAVE GIVEN WHAT IS VERY NARROW JOB TRAINING AT MANY COMMUNITY COLLEGES. LIBERAL EDUCATION IS DESIGNED TO MAKE A STUDENT MORE NIMBLE, AND DESPITE POPULAR BELIEF, CAN PROVIDE PRACTICAL SKILLS AS WELL. ALSO,WE ARE GREAT AT SOCIAL MOBILITY IN OUR SYSTEM. READ DAVID LABAREE'S WORK. THE SOCIAL MOBILITY, HOWEVER, IS CONCERNED WITH THE AFFLUENT ONLY INCREASING THEIR POSTS IN THE MOST SELECTIVE INSTITUTIONS. There’s almost this indifference amongst faculty that students will graduate someday and that they actually need a job that pays at least $20 an hour to make a decent living. THIS IS SIMPLY FALSE ON ITS FACE. THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF FACULTY WHO COME FROM THE RANKS OF THE UNDERREPRESENTED IN HIGHER ED WHO ARE GREAT CHAMPIONS OF LOW-INCOME AND RACIAL/ETHNIC MINORITY STUDENTS WHO KNOW FULL WELL THE OPPORTUNITY THAT A DEGREE PROVIDES AND THE STRUGGLES THAT THESE STUDENTS WILL FACE EVEN AFTER HAVING PROCURED A DEGREE.

  • Posted by Been there, seen it , Just a number on February 18, 2009 at 7:15pm EST
  • A number of good comments have been posted here. I agree that a community college education was once seen to be highly inferior to that of four-year schools. This certainly was the case 25 years ago when I came out of high school. Fortunately, this perception is changing.

    It was interesting to read the comments of Bonita Jacobs. Having taught at North Texas for a handful of years, I can attest to the feelings a number of students expressed to me about their experience at a large university like UNT. I'll never forget one student who, after entering my office during office hours, slumped dejectedly in a chair and exclaimed, "Professor _______, I am nothing but a number here." The two other students present nodded in agreement. It was a sad commentary on the experience many students take away from larger four-year schools. Furthermore, a number of students told me that not only did they have a better experience at local community colleges, but they were also challenged more and learned more as a result (unsolicited plug to Collin County Community College), not to mention they ACTUALLY got to know their professors.

    While the cost of tuition may underlie the driving factor for many of these reverse transfers, I think many are happily discovering a better a learning environment as detailed by the student profiled in the article. It will be interesting to see if this trend continues whenever the economy turns around.

  • Posted by Judith on February 18, 2009 at 9:15pm EST
  • Brian says, GIVEN WHAT IS VERY NARROW JOB TRAINING AT MANY COMMUNITY COLLEGES

    Many? What survey are you looking at?
    The ones I've met--across a wide geographical range-provide a solid liberal arts education IN ADDITION to certificates focused on specific job skills.

    I agree absolutely on the value of a liberal arts education. I wish my students did.

  • Response to Brian
  • Posted by Rachel on February 18, 2009 at 9:20pm EST
  • Brian,

    I will tell what I said in my first post to low-income and/or people of color because I grew up very poor (like trailer-poor and step-father laid off of Chrysler in the 1980s poor) and am a first-generation student. I don't believe what you're saying, which is essentially that there are not enough college-educated workers in our economy. I don't know if you've realized this or not but our economy is changing and has been for some time. That economy does not include the level or type of education that states currently spend (or waste) millions on. I agree that everyone needs some post-secondary education; however, I seriously question how many students are majoring in subjects that employers don't/won't recognize and reward for (besides government jobs). I WISH this wasn't so because I think people should be rewarded for the investments they make (i.e. the opportunity costs of not working full-time while attending college full-time, which, according to my finance of higher education professor, is the most significant cost of 4-year degree attainment, although I think that's changing with the increases of tuition and fees, after all, how else would the numerous over-paid administrators be paid?)

    Look, I think there are a lot of problems with our economy like "in-sourcing" where employers like Microsoft import people from other countries to work in middle- and upper-class positions in this country. (This is the case at Microsoft's Redmond, WA campus where one-third of its employees are not American-born.) And yet, where are the Democrats (the so-called "party of the people") on this issue? Oh right - they need their California votes. (I recognize the Republicans aren't much better on illegal immigration).

    Brian, if you want to be upset about class and racial inequity in education (but we all know it's really race we're talking about here) why don't you question the K-12 system about the low high-school graduation rate of black males? (Because you won't question the public financing of it and the benefits of charter schools). And why is that black graduate students are concentrated in colleges of education on American colleges and university campuses? You're a PhD student, so surely you know that colleges of education are lowest on the totem pole in higher education. (Because the more doctoral students, the more money institutions make off of students).

    Some of the answers to these questions is that the way we financially support K-12 systems is inequitable (local property taxes), there are incompetent and unmotivated teachers in our K-12 system, and a lack of involved parenting, which President Obama did point out in some of his campaign speeches. No?

    Brian, community colleges DO provide a wide array of classes and degrees to its students including liberal arts classes and liberal arts degrees. Contrary to Burton Clark's assertions, today's community colleges are not "cooling out" students' college attainment. I have read David Labaree's work and one of the goals of post-secondary AND higher education he explains is social mobility as well as creating an informed citizenry. Inherent in your arguments is the assumption that community colleges cannot significantly contribute to a democratic citizenry, which I say is "simply false on its face," "my friend."

    I predict there will be an increase in post-baccalaureate reverse transfer students - students who already hold a bachelors degree and attend a community college - across the nation in the coming years and I would predict this regardless of the recession/depression.

  • Simple Response
  • Posted by Brian , PhD at University of Virginia on February 19, 2009 at 5:45am EST
  • I understand that CCs do provide a liberal arts grounding but the degree of influx we are witnessing is concentrated,I would argue, in work force development specifically. I am not attempting to diminish CCs, but we must acknowledge that there is a problem when students who qualify for more elite institutions, institutions who stand to confer more social and cultural capital to it's graduates, are opting for community colleges. No doubt they provide a more intimate environment and more congruent cultural fit, but we must look deeper to the systemic and structural core of why these students do not feel at home in some four-year
    institutions and how these institutions perpetuate exclusion. I know not all CC students intend on tranferring, that is certainly their perogative, but I am fundamentally concerned about why they would not do so or not feel obliged to do so given what we know about lifetime earning differentials. In short, it's not that I am against CCs, though I think cooling out is hard to argue against given the numbers, I simply want those would like to pursue a BA not thwarted by class and race
    marginalization. Call me a Marxist, but there is a whole bunch of well to do folks loving the fact that their ranks are not being infiltrated in any real ways as a result of well qualified low-income and racial/ethnic minority students opting out and being diverted away from four-year study.

  • Rachel
  • Posted by Brian , PhD at University of virginia on February 19, 2009 at 5:45am EST
  • Graduate students actually cost most instiutions money as they are quite expensive to educated/train. The real money makers are undergrads.

    Also, the administrative bloat line that you throw in is played out. Students expect more becuase they pay more and administrators are a part of that equation. Not to mention the increase in what I would consider the very warranted increases in counseling/psych staff and diverse student population advisors and support staff.

    Laslty, and just so I am clear on this, which graduates are you suggesting are so wildly unemployable or unappealing?

  • You lost
  • Posted by Ryan on February 19, 2009 at 6:50pm EST
  • Brian, you lost the argument.

  • Rachel and Brian, and others
  • Posted by HIEDDoc on February 19, 2009 at 7:35pm EST
  • Ah, how fun to have two folks who sound like they know something about higher ed administration!

    Just to throw into the mix: Tri-C (the "Cuyahoga" mentioned in the article) is hardly a small intimate school. According to its website, it serves 55,000 students annually, on three campuses... plus a Corporate College (although, granted, the website claims an overall 18:1 student:teacher (not faculty) ratio.) Of the total, 59% are in technical job training courses, 35% are from minority groups, and only 34% intend to transfer to a 4-yr.

    Personally, I think you both have good points, and are in some ways are having two different arguments. I agree with Rachel that there are probably too many folks out there who get a BA because they haven't thought of anything better to do with the years between 18 and 22 (some of them find out, and are better off with the BA than without when they do.) That rite of passage is seductive. But I have to agree with Brian... community colleges can be seductive too, appearing to be less expensive when in total they might not be, and disproportionately attracting students of predictable SES and other profiles who might have benefited greatly from the type of four-year institution experience that cannot be replicated at CCs.

  • Judith,
  • Posted by Jack , Former asst. prof on February 19, 2009 at 9:55pm EST
  • As callous as this may sound, I think the faculty at Smith have a very good point. Although I don't have any statistics at hand, I highly suspect that the probability of a student finishing a degree in mathematics given that said student started his/her college career with remedial math classes is vanishingly small. Throughout my years as a graduate student and assistant professor, I have only heard of one student who has ever done such a thing.

  • Brian, Everyone
  • Posted by Rachel on February 19, 2009 at 10:55pm EST
  • Brian, I agree that minority groups are over-represented in community colleges. I am not convinced, though, that there are many students who attend two-year institutions who would qualify to attend an elite institution because I don't think there are even that many who attend four-year public institutions who would qualify to attend an elite institution. Elite institutions are incredibly competitive to get admitted to and many "perfect" students (gpa and test-score perfect) will not be admitted to elite institutions because of the stiff competition. Those "perfects" that don't get admitted to what I think of as "first-tier elite" (Harvard, Yale) are more likely to end up at some relatively competitive private college than at a public four-year. Brian, I think if you really want to increase minority 4-year degree attainment in elite institutions so that minorities "stand to confer [the] more social and cultural capital," the educational system MUST begin preparing them no later than the 7th grade. I say this because in even order to even realistically compete yet alone be admitted, a student MUST have four years of college preparatory math and science and even then a student needs to place themselves in Honors and AP math and science classes in the junior and senior years of high school. This process begins earlier than the ninth grade and it certainly begins with the parents and school teachers and school officials.

    On a side note, lately I am not all that impressed with elite institutions. Frankly, I don't think they are doing that great of a job because the "great" political and business leaders they are supposed to produce are lousy.

    In terms of community colleges participating in workforce development, I think workforce development has a bad rap. My impression is that some people think workforce development steers people into low-paying jobs that don't require no more than a high school level of education. That may have or may not have been the case at one point in time; however, I think workforce development centers have changed and have seen and will see an increase in the types of people they will help (race, education level).

    Brian, I agree that some graduate students are expensive to fund at some institutions. I held a graduate teaching assistantship at a public university for 3 and a half years and it was the best money I ever earned and the best benefits I ever had. The catch, though, with teaching and research assistant positions at many institutions, although not all, for example, mine, is that they won't fund professional graduate students (business, library and information science at the master's level), only academic students (PhD and masters). I think this is a VERY outdated model as the master's degree I am finishing up is classified/organized as academic but I will use it in a professional way. I got lucky with getting the TA I did. Very. But most institutions do not support, even meagerly, many of their graduate students, even those in academic programs.

    Brian, I am right in that there has been an increase in administrators in four-year public universities. Higher education scholars have documented this. They have also documented that the number of faculty members has declined. The types of administrators I am speaking of are not student affairs, which I think is who you are referring to. It's my opinion that there are not enough student development personnel and that they are paid poorly for the level of education they must attain (graduate-masters) to even qualify to apply for student affairs positions in addition to the daily stress. Even then, they are competing with individuals who have masters degrees in social work, counseling, and psychology. This, of course, is the fault of student affairs faculty for not advocating for their graduates at the very places they work at and study and it is also the fault of college and universities themselves for not valuing a student development master's degree over another type of master's degree. Talk about irony. The over-paid administrators I am referring to instead are all the VPs, Directors, Assistant Directors, etc. in academic affairs that think they are too good to sincerely help students.

    I'm not saying that college graduates are completely unemployable and unappealing to prospective employers. All I am saying is that the reality is that many college graduates, liberal arts majors in particular, are not seeing a return on their investment (not just immediate, but in the longer term, years). Many will find some type of job, professional or not, but many are and will be underemployed for quite some time - for example earning $10 an hour after graduating with a four-year degree. I think that's outrageous and I think this has been a trend for years now. For most, that is a $2.75 increase in pay from their work-study or retail job they held as an undergraduate student earning $7.25 an hour. I think work experience in the field one wants to work in is increasingly more important than an undergraduate degree. Internships are great -- but I question whether they are "enough" anymore. I suppose it depends on the field and how successful the individual student is at networking and making connections and whether the field is in demand when a student graduates. All I can say is that I double-degreed in the social sciences and if I could do it all over again and if I could give any advice to undergraduate students - it would be that I think the liberal arts are important, but if you are going to major in a social science or humanity, make sure you get also complete a major in something vocational-oriented/vocational like business, accounting, nursing, teacher education. Those fields are in demand and supply and demand is a harsh reality no matter where you turn.

    Peace.

  • Rachel
  • Posted by Brian , PhD at University of Virginia on February 20, 2009 at 11:35am EST
  • Well said, truly. Our exchange has been very fun and invigorating for me and you have made some great points! I think we are advocating the sames things but just from different starting points, maybe. If you want to continue our discussion, or start some new ones, outside of this message board, and I hope you do, email me at bdr8y@virginia.edu. Thanks you for this thoughtful exchange, sincerely.

    -Brian

  • Posted by Judith on February 23, 2009 at 4:04pm EST
  • Jack,

     

    She got a B+ in Calc I at Smith and was recommended to tutor. She went back to do the remedial work herself because she cares about learning math, not memorizing it. And now you know (of) two students who received math degrees after doing remedial work.

     

    It’s called teaching.