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‘The Knowledge-Politics Problem’

March 20, 2009

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In the ongoing debates over professors’ politics, right-wing critics make much of the fact that many surveys have found professors -- especially in the humanities -- to be well to the left of the American public. This political incongruence is frequently used as a jumping off point to suggest that professors are indoctrinating students with leftist ideas.

Neil Gross, a sociologist at the University of British Columbia, is one of the leading researchers on faculty politics, and he recently finished a new analysis of these issues (to appear in a forthcoming collection of essays by different scholars) finding that the conservative critics are correct about humanities’ professors leanings, but incorrect about their views of what classroom responsibility entails.

In fact, Gross finds -- in a study based on detailed interviews of professors’ in various disciplines -- that faculty members take seriously the idea that they should not try to force their views upon students, or to in any way reward or punish students based on their opinions. And this view is shared by professors who see their politics playing a legitimate role in their research agendas, not just those who view their research agendas as neutral.

The aim of this new research is, in part, Gross writes, to shift the discussion of professorial politics away from the unsurprising (many professors are liberal) to “a more systematic” study of how “academicians in various fields and at various points in time understand the relationship between their political views, values, and engagements and their activities of knowledge creation and dissemination, and to how such understandings inform and shape academic work and political practice.” It’s not enough to simply document professors’ politics, Gross writes. What is needed is more attention to how professors handle the “knowledge-politics problem” in their work.

Specifically, the findings in the interviews Gross conducted raise questions about the assumptions of some critics of academe that one can draw conclusions about what goes on in classrooms based on the political and research writings of professors. And Gross is releasing his findings as David Horowitz steps up promotion of his new book naming the "worst courses" in America.

The 57 professors interviewed by Gross and his research team for the study come from five disciplines: biology, economics, engineering, literature and sociology. All of the professors were part of a much larger survey Gross conducted (along with Solon Simmons) for a 2007 report on the politics of faculty members. That report was notable for including a broader cross-section of faculty members than many other such studies (Gross and Simmons included community college professors, a group widely ignored by other studies for example), and for finding professors to be more moderate – albeit still liberal leaning – than many other studies did.

With regard to research agendas, the Gross interviews found that literature professors were quite dubious of the idea of objectivity and quite open about the link between their politics and their research. In biology, economics and engineering, objectivity in research is taken for granted. And in sociology, the results are somewhere in the middle.

Gross frames his contrasts with two quotes -- one from a literature professor and one from an electrical engineer. The literature professor finds it hard to believe that any field is truly objective. “In everything from journalism to the sciences … claims and appeals to objectivity tend to do more to mask interest and situatedness than they do to actually assist in knowledge in any way,” says the literature professor.

But the engineer -- in a joke that Gross writes he heard repeatedly in doing this research -- offers a very different take. “One of the beauties of engineering ... is there is no such thing ... as a Jewish volt, there is no such thing as a Republican ampere. ... There’s no such thing as a conservative kilogram. Or an atheist heater. You know, the atheist looks at the volt meter and it reads 1.26 volts, the ardent Christian conservative reads 1.26 volts, the Muslim reads 1.26 volts. There is some measure of objectivity in this profession.”

On the question of teaching, Gross finds only a few professors who have the goal of changing students’ views. He quotes one professor proud of exposing his students to progressive ideas that they would not otherwise encounter, and who has the explicit goal of changing opinions (although he also says that he encourages students to challenge his views and does not punish those who disagree).

But the actual divide, Gross writes, isn’t between professors who try to change students’ views and those who do not, but between those who are open about their politics and those who are not. Those who don’t talk politics in the classroom, a group Gross calls the “political neutrality camp,” adopt their position for one of two reasons, he writes. Either they think the subject matter of their course makes their politics irrelevant (a subgroup Gross calls “accidental political neutrality”), or they believe that it is best for classroom dynamics if they keep their views to themselves. This latter group he terms advocates of “cultivated political neutrality.”

Professors in this group believe that they may exert too much influence over classroom discussions and students’ views if they are active participants in discussions in which they reveal their views.

Those professors who believe that they need to reveal their views -- a group Gross says favor “political transparency” -- tend to consider their approach sound pedagogy, not just a chance to opine.

Gross quotes a sociologist at a community college: “I’m a sociologist. I’m going to talk about race and racism. I’m going to talk about sex and sexism. I’m going to talk about social inequality and class in the United States.” However, she adds that she is conscious of the potential for her views to skew discussion, so she takes specific steps to encourage contrasting opinions to be offered. She says: “I really try to be inclusive. I don’t try to push a particular agenda or a candidate or anything like that. If I find that I have said [something to this effect], I will quickly ... say, ‘You know, this is just my personal opinion and I respect anybody else’s opinion and you don’t have to agree with me in order to understand the material that I’m trying to convey to you.’ ”

While Gross found sociologists and literature professors to be more politically transparent than others, this was not universal, and there was plenty of political transparency in other disciplines.

By institutional type, Gross found more “cultivated neutrality” at research universities than at community colleges. He speculates on two possible reasons: “This may reflect the greater authority that professors at elite institutions understand themselves to have -- an authority that may lead them to be especially wary of indoctrination – or the lesser intimacy that typically obtains in such institutions between students and instructors.”

Peter W. Wood, president of the National Association of Scholars, which has in the past expressed concerns about politics in the classroom, said he has not had time to study the Gross paper in detail, but offered some analysis of it. Wood praised Gross as a "rigorous" researcher who has made important contributions to the study of the professoriate, but found fault with parts of the new study.

First, Wood said that Gross was unfairly implying that the criticism of academe is coming from conservatives. Wood said many of those worried about these issues are "classic liberals" in the sense of Kant and Mill.

Second, Wood said that the study is limited in that it looks at professors' views of themselves. The analysis by Gross "strikes me as very realistic about what professors say," Wood said. But what actually takes place in the classroom is "beyond the reach of this study."

Wood said he believed some professors do, as they describe their approaches in the Gross study, manage to talk about their political views in ways that do not close off other ideas or intimidate students who disagree. But Wood said that he believes many other professors "are fooling themselves" into thinking that they do.

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Comments on ‘The Knowledge-Politics Problem’

  • Valid?
  • Posted by William M. Marcellino , Grad Student at Carnegie Mellon University on March 20, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • I wonder at how valid this work is as grounds for arguing about academic practices. The Gross is studying how "academicians...understand the relationship between their political views, values, and engagements and their activities of knowledge," not their practices in the classroom with regard to political values. If this is meant to be a reply to "Those ole liberals are doing X," then telling us how academics self-represent doesn't seem salient.

    An ethnographic study of classroom practices where the ethnographer had deep, rich knowledge of classroom practices and teacher/student interaction, or perhaps an empirical study that showed relationships between values and grades, would have been more relevant.

  • Gross's study is meaningless
  • Posted by david horowitz on March 20, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • A study of 57 professors (out of 600,000) is meaningless. I have never claimed that all or a majority of left-leaning professors are ideologues who indoctrinate their students. In fact I have always said that the percentage of professors who do so are no more than a fraction of any given faculty, roughly 10%. But this amounts to 60,000 professors and, as Jacob Laksin and I have shown in our new book One-Party Classroom there do in fact exist courses which exist only to indoctrinate students and that the number of these probably exceeds 10-20,000. This is not a small problem. It has taken critics like myself six years to get the defenders of the status quo to admit that faculty political leanings are overwhelmingly left. It will probably take us another six years to get a grudging concession that indoctrination rather than education is taking place in too many classrooms.

  • yes, but...
  • Posted by Post-modernist on March 20, 2009 at 12:15pm EDT
  • It may indeed be true that: "You know, the atheist looks at the volt meter and it reads 1.26 volts, the ardent Christian conservative reads 1.26 volts, the Muslim reads 1.26 volts.”

    Yet, as Thomas Kuhn demonstrated years ago in "The Structure of Scientific Revolution," whether people look at the meter at all IS political/ideological. Objectivity within a proscribed set of questions is Ideology.

    The Right-wing, especially, sees its job as limiting the questions that can be asked and thus remaining "objective." They point to new questions and those thinkers outside the box as being "subjective" and "political." They are not willing to see the mote in their own eyes...the constructed nature of their universe. As Thomas Pynchon noted in "Gravity's Rainbow:" "If they get you to asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about the answers." Objectivity in this case, and in Horowitz's case, is simply controlling the questions.

  • More than a grain of salt
  • Posted by Fossil , Prof. of Mathematics (emeritus) at Gargantuan State U. on March 20, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • There are enough well-attested horror stories, as well as a number of things I've personally seen over the back fence, so to speak, to lead me to suspect that Gross's evaluation is somewhat disingenuous. A decade or so ago, various journals of literary studies and the pedagogy of English Composition and the like were replete with articles that made no bones about the obligation of instructors to politicize their classrooms from a radical point of view. Under fire, these voices have grown, perhaps, a bit more circumspect (which is probably the case for some of Gross's informants) but the basic problem remains.

  • Objectivity?
  • Posted by Sandy Thatcher , Director at Penn State University Press on March 20, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • Wood's point, seconded by Marcellino, is on target. But Wood's belief that many professors are fooling themselves is only that, a belief, and lacking the kind of ethnographic study Marcellino calls for, which could produce truly objective evidence, there is no reason to believe it is true--or not.

    Horowitz's approach is anything but objective. Although I have not read his new book, I know from past writings and speeches he has given (including at Penn State) that he categorizes entire fields, like women's studies, as inherently biased, so that by definition anyone teaching a course in such fields is trying to indoctrinate students. He thinks the same way about Marxism in economics, once having famously dismissed the Department of Economics at the University of Massachusetts as so infected by Marxism that it could never be considered anything other than a bastion of ideology. On the other hand, he seems to have no trouble endorsing, say, the University of Chicago as teaching economics in a purely objective fashion. But why cannot one teach Marxian economics in as "objective" a way as neoclassical economics? Marxism is an intellectual system, with certain fundamental premises, just as neoclassical economics is, and students can be exposed to it just as they can to neoclassical economics without being ideologically infected. Horowitz has never convincingly shown why Marxian economics is inherently biased while neoclassical economics is not.

    The irony is that Horowitz was once on the other side, arguing in the exact opposite fashion. In the 1970s I was the sponsoring editor for a book at Princeton University Press by Penn State professor Robert Maddox called "The New Left and the Origins of the Cold War," which attempted to disclose the shoddy scholarship of seven leading New Left historians. Horowitz was one of his targets, and Horowitz replied vehemently, accusing the author of ideological bias. Horowitz has simply changed sides, but he is still using the same tactics.

  • UCLA Study
  • Posted by Grant Jones on March 20, 2009 at 1:45pm EDT
  • Has IHE posted an article on the UCLA study? It states:

    "The majority of college faculty (55.5 percent) nationwide now consider it "very important" or "essential" to "instill in students a commitment to community service," an increase of 19.1 percentage points since the survey was last conducted in 2004–05, and 75.2 percent indicate that they work to "enhance students' knowledge of and appreciation for other racial/ethnic groups," a gain of 17.6 percentage points over three years."

    "Civic engagement and diversity are among the core values that many institutions articulate in their mission," said Sylvia Hurtado, a co-author of the report and director of HERI. "It is important that faculty now view this as essential in their work because they are charged with preparing students to live in today's diverse world. Students represent our best hope for social progress."

    Yep, no agenda here. The study is based on responses from over 22,000 academics.

    http://www.gseis.ucla.edu/heri/pr-display.php?prQry=40

  • A mountain of salt
  • Posted by EngProf on March 20, 2009 at 1:45pm EDT
  • I'm with Fossil. I've seen and heard enough to know that there is blatant indoctrination going on (I have at least six horror stories just from September to November 2008, in one Intro to Anthropology class. Who knew that Intro to Anthropology was supposed to be a class on Who You Racist White Kids Should Vote For?).

    There's also subtle indoctrination that may not be purposeful or intended, but flows from the way a concept is presented, and the words that are used. You won't hear liberals talk about the "war on terror" (now it's "man-caused disasters"--but hey, isn't that sexist?). I kind of doubt conservatives would get up on a desk and jump up and down, screaming at the white students that they are racist. We all have "code" words and phrases (and behaviors, apparently) that convey a particular viewpoint, and we aren't aware of them until we get out of our echo chamber and someone looks at us funny for using them. Academia is an echo chamber. That's a problem. It would be a problem if 97% of the professoriate leaned right, and you can bet your teleprompter that the liberals would be screaming if that was the case.

  • Thomas Kuh, et al., qua gurus
  • Posted by Fossil , prof. of Mathematics (emeritus) at Gargantuan State U. on March 20, 2009 at 2:15pm EDT
  • Saith postmodernist:

    "Yet, as Thomas Kuhn demonstrated years ago in "The Structure of Scientific Revolution," whether people look at the meter at all IS political/ideological. Objectivity within a proscribed set of questions is Ideology."

    This is typical of the way in which "humanists" of the postmodern persuasion try to pontificate about questions that are not really within their competence.

    Thomas Kuhn is a thinker who posed some provocative questions, but whose conclusions have not persuaded most philosophers of science, not to mention working scientists. He never "demonstrated" much; his historical and sociological evidence is thin and impressionistic. Moreover, whatever he thought about the nature of the scientific enterprise, he did NOT think what postmodernist said he thought. His attitude toward science was rather positive, despite his heterodox views of epistemology and ontology. But putting words in his mouth, as well as citing him as an incontrovertible guru, is typical of the way in which postmodernists (including our present 'postmodernist') justify their sophomoric cynicism about science and scientific objectivity.

    Moreover, this peculiar methodology is very typical of much postmodernist scholarship. The eminent Prof. X (fill in your favorite postmodernist superstar) writes a book full of grandiose assertions unsupported by hard empirical evidence but swaddled in appealing rhetoric. Said book is declared to be "groundbreaking". Thereafter, it is cited by hordes of "scholars" as inerrant gospel, without any attempt to scrutinize it for soundness of argument. (The few naysayers are, of course, outside the charmed circle, and are instantly brushed off as conservative fogies with an insidious reactionary agenda). The worship of authority is a worse problem in postmodern scholarship than in any other field I can think of.

    This, of course, is related to the problem of political agendae superimposed on classrooom instruction. Our friend postmodernist indirectly supplies significant evidence that the ideology-mongering prof continues to be a genuine problem.

  • The Knowledge-Politics Problem
  • Posted by George Patsourakos , Retired Administrator at Harvard University on March 20, 2009 at 4:00pm EDT
  • I do not believe that professors are indoctrinating students with leftist ideas. In fact, I don't think that professors could do so -- even if they tried -- because college students are too astute to be indoctrinated. They know when a professor is teaching true facts and if a professor is trying to promote his or her own "agenda." Consequently, there is no need to question this type of "teaching," because it has no effect in influencing student ideology!

  • Horowitz and his critics
  • Posted by Jonathan Cohen , Professor of Mathematics at DePaul University on March 20, 2009 at 4:00pm EDT
  • After reading some of the criticisms of Horowitz and Laksin's book and after reading the author's response, I think the disagreement is not so much over whether classes are politicized but over whether such politicizing is a good thing.

    When professor's publish a syllabus, including the course reading list, or when departments or even colleges have mission statesments that have a clear political agenda, it is a clear statement of what they intend to accomplish in their programs and courses. When a professor states that his course is about organizing a revolution, there is little question that the professor has an agenda beyond the usual set of pedagogical purposes.

    Horowitz and Laksin are critical of women's studies programs. The defenders of these programs complain about the lack of evidence presented in their critique. This might make sense if their book relied on hearsay student complaints but it doesn't. It is based on an examination of the information that programs and classes present to describe themselves.

    I have been part of faculty governance for many years and my experience is that many proprosed curricular initiatives feature justifications that emphasize themes of social justice. Sometimes whole programs are devoted to it. Upon inquiry it is clear that the proposers of such programs have a very well defined opinion about what does and does not constitute social justice and it is highly unlikely that such a program would in anyway seriously consider alternative views of social justice.

    What I find astonishing is that the critics of Horowitz and Laksin are now denying what they have proudly proclaimed they have been doing for years. This level of disingenuousness and outright dishonesty undermines the purpose of the university.

  • Physician heal thyself
  • Posted by Catonian on March 20, 2009 at 5:00pm EDT
  • David Horowitz says "It has taken critics like myself six years to get the defenders of the status quo to admit that faculty political leanings are overwhelmingly left." I think it is true that members of academe rather overwhelmingly high numbers. But I find it interesting that people who talk about this a great deal always assume that this indicates something about academe but nothing about the Right in the United States. Perhaps those disturbed by this could profit from asking: what is it about the current conservative movement and Republican Party in the United States that repels so many educated folks? Could it be their embrace of anti-intellectualism and scorn of "elites" and "pointy-headed intellectuals?" Could it be their alliances with folks denying global warming science and evolutionary science? Could it be the elements in their movement who seem insensitive, in debates like the immigration debate and gay rights, to the ethnic diversity that colleges thrive on?

    Surely the imbalance in political identification on campuses is partly due to something about our academic institutions (an opposite imbalance can be seen in U.S. military branches where conservatives and Republicans outnumber Democrats and liberals to a large degree, though oddly there is less fuss about this), but certainly conservatives could do a better job in attracting our educated class.

  • I Always Achieve Balance
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on March 20, 2009 at 6:00pm EDT
  • Three things …

     

    First, while my position may not be unique, you’ve got to admit it is somewhat unusual … I have been teaching for almost 50 years, and I have had tenure-track positions in departments of Mathematics, Statistics, Political Science, Business, and Education (and more than one of each).  On my thermometer scale, here are my subjective estimates of my colleagues’ political dispositions … where 0 is “very conservative” and 100 is “very liberal” …

     

    Discipline ………Mean ….. Standard Deviation

     

    Business ……….… 35 ……………… 8

     

    Statistics …….…… 40 …………….. 10

     

    Education ………... 40 …………….. 10

     

    Mathematics ….…. 65 ………...….. .12

     

    Political Science … 70 …………….. 10

     

    In my opinion – and as one would expect -- the distributions for Statistics, Education, and Mathematics are close to normal, the Business faculty distribution is seriously skewed to the right, and the Political Scientists’ distribution is seriously skewed to the left. As you can see, I don’t base “political disposition” on stupidly meaningless statements like “To which political party do you belong?”

     

    In all of those years, I only recall three or four colleagues who were vociferous about their political perspectives in class … the most noticeable being a right-wing political scientist whose claim to fame was authorship of several books about the Second Amendment (his work has been frequently cited by Denny Crane).

     

    Second, the next time someone like Neil Gross thinks about designing a research study, I hope s/he will include a “status of institution” variable, even using something as awful as the brain-dead reputation rankings of U.S. News and World Report.  I’d love to see how these figures vary in accordance with the reputation of the institution at which the subjects teach.

     

    Finally, each year in my applied logic course, I have my students conduct a "logical integrity"  exercise based on the utterances of famous media personalities.  Usually I choose Sean Hannity to represent the right, Ann Coulter as my middle-of-the-road representative, and Rush Limbaugh as the quintessential left-winger.  The cumulative data over the years conclusively prove that there is no statistically significant difference between the logical accuracy of right-wingers, centrists, and knee-jerk liberals … admitting, however, that none of the three would get a passing grade in my course.

     

    Don’t you just love statistics?

  • Math politics
  • Posted by Fossil , Prof. of Mathematics (emeritus) at Gargantuan State U. on March 21, 2009 at 7:45am EDT
  • @Frizbane Manley

    I know only math depts., and only one in great detail, the one where I taught for 40 years. On Manley's scale, I would give it an 85. That doesn't however, mean that there was much sympathy for the kind of "identity politics" radicalism characteristic of trendy humanities departments for a couple of decades. Indeed, my colleagues were pretty adamant about simply ignoring the "diversity" mantras when it came to hiring --we were strict meritocrats. The result, of course, was a department which was about half native born Americans, with the rest having origins scattered throughout the globe. But, to put it bluntly, qualified black candidates for a math position at an intensely research-oriented department, whether American, African, or West Indian, are very, very rare. We had none on the senior faculty and only a couple as post-docs while I was there.

    Why the department was so slanted toward political liberalism, I can't say, other than to note that mathematicians are pretty smart. Certainly, political views never had any influence on hiring or promotion decisions. It would have been the height of bad form even to briefly mention them in that context.

  • Posted by Asisstant Professor on March 21, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • <blockquote>Why the department was so slanted toward political liberalism, I can't say, other than to note that mathematicians are pretty smart.</blockquote>

    Intelligence is not a factor on the liberal-conservative axis, and it displays a level of ignorance that is unbecoming for a professor to think as such. Although the stereotypes of the liberal intelligensia and conservative redneck are well-entrenched, the 'liberal idiot' who has let their brain fall out because of seething (and usually misinformed) hatred, and the thoughtful conservative are both out there as well.

    I may be letting my own biases as a professor show, but I'm not even sure that 'liberal' and 'conservative' mean anything anymore. There are those that favor government control over people, and those that want no government control over them at all. There are those who want to live their lives and make the best of it, and those who want everyone else to live the way they think is best for them.
    "Liberals" and "Conservatives" fall on both sides of those divisions at the same time. In power, they want control. Neither side stands for human freedom and dignity (unless you support their side, then they're all about your 'dignity and rights'). Neither side would stand seriously for enforcing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights against even egregious signatory abusers like Saudi Arabia.

    All politicians lie to gain what they ultimately crave: power. Forget the high-minded idealism - given the power, they don't care about the little guys that got them there.

  • Quality is Quality
  • Posted by Bill , Prof. Multimedia Web Design & Development at University of Hartford on March 21, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • Now that much critical analysis has been replaced by sound bites, the right wing wailers are bombarding us with their slogans that require little memory and less thoughtful reflection. I certainly hope that university professors remain liberal in the real meaning of that term. For me, liberal has always meant open minded, scientific and observant. Yes, I do teach my long-suffering students these ideals--the liberal ideals of the academy. Above all, students learn about quality--doing something right as a process, not taking shortcuts (until they know the path) and working to make things better. Most important they learn to see a rejected hypothesis as a victory of knowledge; not a failure in hypothesizing. Some of the best works I've seen in thesis and dissertations have been where the student learns that her hypothesis is flat-out rejected by good research. Unfortunately, what we have come too often to accept is a good sounding conclusion that has no systematic observation or possibility of being proven wrong. That approach leads to no progress a morass of ideology couched in the populist cape of "common sense." In fact common sense is no more than the collected prejudices of custom and have no more validity and randomly selecting the answer from a bowl of fortune cookie notes.

  • Intelligent liberals
  • Posted by Fossil , Prof. of Mathematics (emeritus) at Gargantuan State U. on March 21, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • @Assistant Professor;

    "Liberalism", to give a reasonable working definition, embodies at least these two chief doctrines:

    (1) Freedom from official interference with one's lifestyle choices. This entails that the state does not intrude in matters involving religious belief, sexuality, reproductive choice, and so forth.

    (2) The legitimacy of governmental action to redistribute wealth, to a certain extent, from the extremely well-off to the seriously distressed. Thus, taxes should be progressively graduated rather than regressive, minimum wage laws should be reasonably strong, accepting government welfare programs should not stigmatize people, and so forth.

    It is in that sense that my colleagues would be labeled "liberal". By the way, they would be genuinely delighted by any meaningful attempt to rectify the atrocious human rights situation in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere, including regimes favored by the so-called "left".

    Conservatism, on the other hand, seems to have devolved into a welter of confused and malicious sloganeering.. As the term is used in ordinary political discourse in this country, it seems to denote those who lionize Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and Bill O'Reilly. How many self-described "conseratives" have ever given the least thought to Aristotle, Hobbes, Burke, Toqueville? Bill O'Reilly is about as far as they get. Libertarians, who, roughly speaking, agree with liberals about (1), but not (2), can no longer be lumped with "conservatives" since the brute conservatism of American politics is largely inimical to libertarian thought.

    As to whether liberals are more intelligent: Is Keith Olbermann more intelligent, at least in his openly stated opinions, than Bill O'Reilly? The question answers itself.

  • Posted by EngProf on March 21, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • "Rush to war" "Speak truth to power" "Bush lied, people died" "No blood for oil" "the failed policies of.." (only now, we conservatives get to talk about the failed policies of the Obama administration)

    Oh no, the left doesn't deal in "slogans that require little memory and less thoughtful reflection"--no, not at all.

  • Fossil, a question about the meritocracy?
  • Posted by Rod Bell , Adjunct Professor of Political Science at College of DuPage on March 21, 2009 at 6:45pm EDT
  • I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm interested in your experience at a big-university math department where your colleagues were "pretty adamant about simply ignoring the 'diversity' mantras when it came to hiring --we were strict meritocrats." I can see a serious math department holding the line against what you call diversity mantras, but what about gender equality? If the president of Harvard can be drummed out of office for entertaining, in apparent good faith, a perfectly plausible hypothesis (as opposed to a prejudice) about the shortage of women in science at top universities, could your department really resist the demand for gender equity in math? (Tell it like it was.)

  • Response to Fossil and Patsourakos
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on March 22, 2009 at 11:30am EDT
  • I thought I was going to weigh in on this article, have a few laughs, and that would be that. Aside from caring a great deal about the educations of young folks, I can’t tell you how much I hate to be serious about anything their professors say or do.

    That said, Professor Fossil, thanks for your insightful comments about Thomas Kuhn. It’s bad enough to endure social scientists’ interpretation of Kuhn’s work – I think most of them suffer from physics-envy anyway – but you should see how “paradigm” is used in business schools. There, if you accept your undeserved bonus with your left hand it is thought to be a different paradigm than if you accept it with your right hand. And the discipline of “leadership” – and let me tell you that courses in leadership are all the rage on the management side of b-schools these days – is only five years old and has already experienced six paradigm shifts. Whew!

    And, George Patsourakos, Retired Administrator at Harvard University, while I am in complete agreement with your first sentence (“I do not believe that professors are indoctrinating students with leftist ideas”), I think your explanation is indicative of a prejudice that is very difficult for someone who has spent a career at Harvard to avoid. Please do me a favor and read “Deer Hunting With Jesus” by Joe Bageant.

    With that under your belt, I think you may have reason to question your statement that “… college students are too astute to be indoctrinated.” I think, when you get out into the hinterlands southwest of Boston, you’ll find an enormous number of uneducated, right-wing, evangelical, Scotch-Irish, Presbyterian, college freshmen, who couldn’t be swayed by one of David Horowitz’s 100 most dangerous professors, even in a course titled “Rush Limbaugh …Right 96.4% of the Time, But With An Approval Rating of 19%.” It’s not their astuteness that protects them from indoctrination; it’s the fact that they have just come off eighteen years of learning their lessons well, all the while hanging out with Mom, Dad, Aunt Bea, Uncle Clyde, and Coach Pickle … and no half-baked, pointy-head, ivory-tower college prof is going to convince them otherwise.

    I mean, Mr. Patsourakos, I advertise myself as a left-wing, bleeding-heart, knee-jerk, ultra-liberal mathematician – sorry Jonathan Cohen – and I know enough to keep my mouth shut about politics when I’m in my Management Science 101 class here at the Harry Boondocks, Jr. School of Business.

    P.S. Oh yes … when you criticize my prejudices, please remember that I was one of those uneducated, right-wing, evangelical, Scotch-Irish, Presbyterian, (Southern Appalachian), college freshmen who learned his lessons well under the tutelage of Mom, Dad, Aunt Bea, Uncle Clyde, Coach Pickle … and, of course, Pastor Swaggart.

  • Posted by Fossil , Prof. of Mathematics (emeritus) at Gargantuan State U. on March 22, 2009 at 6:15pm EDT
    • Fossil, a question about the meritocracy?
    • Posted by Rod Bell , Adjunct Professor of Political Science at College of DuPage on March 21, 2009 at 6:45pm EDT
    •  

      I don't mean to be argumentative. I'm interested in your experience at a big-university math department where your colleagues were "pretty adamant about simply ignoring the 'diversity' mantras when it came to hiring --we were strict meritocrats." I can see a serious math department holding the line against what you call diversity mantras, but what about gender equality? If the president of Harvard can be drummed out of office for entertaining, in apparent good faith, a perfectly plausible hypothesis (as opposed to a prejudice) about the shortage of women in science at top universities, could your department really resist the demand for gender equity in math? (Tell it like it was.)

    This is a fair question. There was, in my department, a certain amount of discussion about giving priority to hiring women, but always in the "meritocratic" context. I find that at present, of a senior faculty of about 80, there are three women. In all fairness, a few women, some of whom were outstanding mathematicians who were at my department well before all the fuss about sexual parity arose, have recently retired. Moreover, one really superlative woman mathematician was on our faculty for a year or so before being hired away by one of the world's most stellar departments. In general, we pay lip service to the idea that, all other things being equal, a woman candidate should be preferred. However, all other things are rarely equal. I don't recall the administration giving us that much grief about the situation (to say something positive about an administration which I despise in general). My sense is that the higher-ups are intimidated by mathematicians and simply give them a wide berth.

    Since the Summers brouhaha, I have gotten into the happen of scrutinizing the conference announcements that come my way (one or two a week) to determine the proportion of women who are invited speakers, a rather good indication of serious standing in the math community. I find that the figure is 10-12%, though I am churlish enough to suspect that it is slightly heightened by the fact that organizers feel that they must have a couple of women amongst the invitees for the sake of form. I don't expect this to change much--and not because there is an abiding prejudice against women in mathematics (as opposed to biology, say). A math department would hire a 12-foot high, bright purple, three-eyed Venusian with bad table manners if said creature had made significant progress toward the Riemann Hypothesis!

    Most people who mouth off about Summers's supposed sexual bigotry have not read his actual remarks, although they are freely available verbatim. The hypothesis that got him into hot water (which he put forward as a mere possibility, without specifically endorsing it) is that, even though math ability, on average, is just about the same for males and females, at the extreme range where stellar math researchers are to be found, one must expect a very high proportion of men to women. The reasoning is simple, though not incontrovertible:

    (1) Mathematical ability seems, at first blush, to be normally distributed in both male and female populations (which are of equal size).

    (2) The median for males is slightly higher than for females.

    (3) The variance for males is slightly higher than for females.

    Consequently, one expects to see a "tail-end" effect at the high end of the respective curves, showing that extremely gifted men greatly outnumber their female counterparts.

    This is a plausible enough argument and the empirical data that come from the community of serious research mathematicians seems to be consistent with it. As I say, the idea of inordinate misogynist bias, in that community at least, doesn't seem to me to be very convincing.. So, tentatively, the hypothesis that tripped up Summers strikes me as likely , at least in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

  • A Word From The Prince of Prejudice
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on March 23, 2009 at 4:15pm EDT
  • First, just to get it out of the way, I have only one minor quarrel with the statements in Fossil’s last post. I agree that Larry Summers cast his three hypotheses about women in mathematics and the sciences “thoughtfully,” but (1) a politician – and that’s what university presidents are – would have to be off his gourd to think s/he could make a statement like that without serious repercussions and (2) even though it caused a big stink at the time, I think those statements (and the subsequent explanations) had little to do with the dissatisfaction with his leadership style at Harvard that got him “canned.” For example, he was already in big trouble for telling Cornell West to show up for and teach his scheduled classes.

    Second, as it was unfolding, I took in stride the fact that I sometimes taught at highly reputed schools and at other times taught at remarkably mediocre schools. No big deal … that was just the way it was. Now, however, I think that was close to an optimal experience for a teacher (forget about scholarship for the moment).

    Third, in an earlier post I wrote, “the next time someone like Neil Gross thinks about designing a research study, I hope s/he will include a “status of institution” variable, even using something as awful as the brain-dead reputation rankings of U.S. News and World Report. I’d love to see how these figures vary in accordance with the reputation of the institution at which the subjects teach.”

    Then Fossil wrote the wonderfully Summers-esque sentence, “…Why the department was so slanted toward political liberalism, I can't say, other than to note that mathematicians are pretty smart.”

    I take our statements to be somewhat related, and I would love to construct some questionnaire items that would probe our underlying prejudices. No doubt it would be seen that mathematicians who study applied math and real and complex analysis are more conservative than topologists and algebraists … and, within that particular class of subjects, statisticians would surely be far out in the right wing. But that’s another story.

    Fourth, what really mystifies me is why, in the United States, the populations of male and female mathematics aptitudes are normally distributed with means that are not very far apart – that was Fossil’s claim -- and the distributions of both male and female mathematics achievements are inverted Js.

    And in accordance with that, here’s my observation (and remember, I’m talking about mathematics) …

    1. When I taught at highly reputed universities, there seemed to be many more males than females in the upper-level courses, and in those classes, there were proportionally many more males than females in the upper quartile of achievement.

    2. When I taught at a mediocre university, the numbers of males and females in the upper-level classes was approximately equal, but there tended to be more females than males in the upper quartile of achievement.

    3. I have never taught in China, but I have had plenty of Chinese-born-and-raised students in my classes. No matter the so-called “excellence” of the university, the males and females were almost equal in proportion in both the upper-level classes and the upper quartile of achievement. And how did they compare to the best American students? Well, you know the answer to that.

    If I am right, can one conclude anything from my experience besides, controlling for intelligence, the dominant factors affecting mathematics achievement are cultural? It’s not in our genes … it’s all in the memes.

    P.S. What is it about a country that (1) accuses someone who studies racial differences in athletic achievement of being a racist, (2) accuses someone who studies sexual differences in mathematical achievement of being a sexist, and (3) accuses someone who studies the social causes of homosexuality as being homophobic? And, whatever you do, don’t use data-based studies of those topics as examples in your intro statistics class … unless you’re prepared to be called a left-wing, bleeding-heart, knee-jerk, ultra-liberal proselytizer.

  • What's up, Frizbane?
  • Posted by Rod Bell , Adjunct Professor of Political Science at College of DuPage on March 27, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • Normally I wouldn't comment on someone's inconsistencies (I do, rather snarkily, sometimes), but Frizbane is usually the guy who shines a smart-light on snarls of ideologically confounded comments. So I've gotta ask: What's your point, Frizbane? The high-status/medium-status math distributions seem to support the boys-are-really-better-at-math argument. The Chinese data are ambiguous, at best, given the host of variables that are dragged along with the data. But most confusing, to me, is the juxtaposition of your observation that our society tends to castigate research into heritable causes of social outcomes (depending on the findings), and your warning that doing such research or statistical analysis runs the risk of being branded ultra-liberal. This isn't sitting solidly, or I'm missing something.

  • Trite
  • Posted by Mister R at A certain book publisher which must remain unnamed... on April 23, 2009 at 3:00pm EDT
  • I found Mr. Gross' study to be somewhat trite and almost humorous. Here is what he concludes: the vast majority of professors in the humanities are left of center, but they are "responsible" enough not to present a biased viewpoint. That's absurd. Imagine if every college politics course was taught by Rush Limbaugh, but he PROMISED to be responsible and non-biased. Do you see what I am getting at? Just because biased people claim to be non-biased does not actually MAKE them non-biased. I also love the way Mr. Gross completely ignored one of the most relevant indicator's of bias: what texts are being used by these supposed "non-biased" professors?

    How can I possibly be expected to take a Women's Studies course seriously when the textbook we are using says RIGHT IN THE INTRODUCTION that the problems faced by women are caused by a lack of government services and that the solution is to grow the government and that the obstacle to doing so is Conservatives? How can a professor using a book like that possibly claim to be presenting a neutral perspective?

    Here's an interesting study: How many courses use Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States versus how many courses are using A Conservative History of the American Left by Daniel Flynn? Or an even better question, how many of these "non-biased" professors are using BOTH in order to present a truly balanced perspective?