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A 'Third Way' on Student Loans?

April 1, 2009

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WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration's 2010 budget proposal in February to eliminate the lender-based guaranteed student loan program poured gasoline on the longstanding (and, to many, tiresome) debate over whether that program or the federal government's competing direct loan program is more efficient, cost effective, etc.

The latest installment of the debate unfolded Tuesday during a forum here at the New America Foundation, a think tank whose higher education analysts are strongly allied with and generally supportive of the new administration's policies, including its plans to restructure the loan programs.

But if the forum was a bit one-sided, New America can't really be faulted; MaryEllen McGuire, who directs the foundation's Education Policy Program and moderated the event, noted that four loan industry officials had turned down the chance to appear, and the person who took her up on the unenviable request, the lobbyist Scott Fleming, joked that he had "always said I'd walk on broken glass for [McGuire], and this may be as close as I get."

Those who demurred probably figured that this was a thankless time to be defending a guaranteed loan program that has taken a pounding from (in rough order) a heavily publicized controversy over potential conflicts of interest, a Congress that has sucked profits from it since 2006, the near-collapse of the financial markets, and now a proposal to more or less eliminate it. Robert Shireman, who as a consultant to Education Secretary Arne Duncan is widely seen as the architect of the administration's loan plan, was the featured speaker at Tuesday's event, and he laid out the most complete public case yet for the proposal. (A Webcast of the event can be seen here.)

The administration's plan, Shireman said, would use the most efficient and cost-effective method of raising money -- auctions of U.S. Treasury bills -- to get capital to make the loans. It would originate and disburse the loans using the government's existing system for distributing Pell Grant funds to colleges and collecting data about students from them, an "easy add-on" to a system that works.

And, perhaps most importantly, and in starkest contrast to the current system, he said, the student loans would be "serviced" -- the process by which loans are collected and student borrowers are helped on the sometimes rocky road to repayment -- "by the best servicers based on customer service and preventing defaults." The government would force companies and/or state agencies -- many of the same parties that are now in the guaranteed loan program -- to compete for contracts to service loans, and "those that can't compete, are not doing a good job, then they get less business."

Fleming, a former Republican Congressional aide who is now a director of the Chartwell Education Group, a consulting firm, said that "lenders for the most part don't disagree with what the administration is trying to accomplish," in terms of its goal of developing a less expensive, more stable student loan system, but "disagree with some of the methods the administration is proposing."

Channeling the well-honed arguments that student loan providers have made for years (and with more intensity of late), Fleming questioned whether the shift would really save taxpayers money, and said that terminating the guaranteed loan program would eliminate the healthy competition that has existed between the two loan programs, prompting innovations and better terms for borrowers.

Paul Combe, president and CEO of American Student Assistance, one of the loan guarantee agencies that plays an integral part in the lender-based loan program, described himself as arguing for "none of the above." He has spent the last couple years trying to rise above the fray of the fight in which supporters of the two programs "try to kneecap each other," instead pitching the idea of creating a unified loan program that would build on the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses of the two existing programs and "put the consumer first," he said Tuesday.

The current battle, he said, "starts to sound like [the old commercial], 'Tastes great, less filling,'" Combe said. The guaranteed loan program "is not working, period," he said. "Because of that, do we stay in this box and say, 'This one failed so therefore we're [going entirely with direct loans],' without looking at the things that don't work in that program, too?"

Combe said he believed the fact that President Obama was "willing to make change" presented a climate in which supporters of alternatives to the two existing loan programs -- those who support a "third way" -- could have their ideas heard, a view shared by Quentin Wilson, president and chief executive officer of All Student Loan, who was in the audience at Tuesday's New America event. He asserted that loan industry officials have been too unwilling to change, but quoted the British author Samuel Johnson in suggesting that lenders' tough times might force them to reconsider their reluctance: "Depend upon it, Sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully."

Wilson noted that many such ideas are out there, including a recent one from the National Association of Student Financial Aid Administrators, but said that it would be a mistake to rush a set of changes, as might be necessary if Congress sought to mandate restructuring of the student loan programs through the pending budget reconciliation process this summer. "The administration's willingness to talk about this may get us to something better," Wilson said, noting that he and Seamus O'Neill, another purveyor of loan program alternatives, called the discussions a "bridge to somewhere."

Shireman, the Education Department official, said in response to a reporter's question that the administration was open to alternatives, as long as they were consistent with the goals of the president's own proposal. "There is a lot of good conversation going on, and people are putting together proposals they've had for a number of months," Shireman said. But he added that he had not seen a proposal with enough specificity to be able to judge whether it might meet the administration's tests.

One loan industry official who was not at Tuesday's event was Brett Lief, president of the National Council for Higher Education Loan Programs. He said that many participants in the guaranteed loan program have "thought for the last three years that the status quo is not sufficient," and that "I don't know anyone on the student loan side that is satisfied" with the current system. A group of higher education loan officials, Lief said, are within weeks of putting forward a plan of their own that is consistent with the administration's goals.

In contrast to recent years, he said, when Congress has rammed through changes in the student loan programs without meaningful discussion about what would be intelligent public policy, "I think there's a perfect opportunity now ... to come up with a funding model that will provide necessary assurances for liquidity, provide the guarantees and other services that students and families desire, and allow for the competition and accountability that are necessary."

He added: "We're going to come to the table with ideas."

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Comments on A 'Third Way' on Student Loans?

  • Get Serious
  • Posted by Alan Collinge , Founder at StudentLoanJustice.Org on April 1, 2009 at 7:15am EDT
  • Nowhere in any of these discussions is the most glaring and obvious deficiency for ALL student lending schemes discussed: the fact tha bankruptcy protections, statutes of limitations, refinancing rights, and other consumer protections have been stolen from the borrowers.

    Combined with the draconian collection powers that make it far more profitable for the system when students default, we are left with a predatory lending system that benefits from more defaults, encourages obscene infation in the cost of college, and ruins the lives of millions.

    Sallie Mae and others have been caught defaulting loans without even attempting to collect on the debt, and the real default rate today is likely 30% or higher.

    Under the Direct Loan program, the perverse incentive to default loans still exists...particularly with companies like Sallie Mae both servicing loans, and collecting on defaulted loans, potentially.

    What about the novel concept of returning the fundamental consumer protections to student loans? Bankruptcy was taken away under what proved to be false pretenses (when student loans were dischargeable in BK court, less than 1% of federal student loans were discharged), and the people who promised that all the other takeaways from the borrowers, and giveaways to the lending system would result in a lower default rate obviously lied , and continue to lie when they brag about low default rate.

    You all can lie to each other, but the American Public aren't stupid, and the student loan system will soon be seen for the fiasco it has become. Worse, even, than the subprime mortgage industry.

    Returning standard consumer protections will at least begin to right things. With the federal government forced to have a little "skin in the game" (currently, they lose no money, and may even make money from defaulted loans), they will be motivated to keep defaults low, therefore motivated to push schools to keep quality high, costs low, and graduation time minimal.

    They will also be motivated to push their servicers to provide decent customer service, work with borrowers, instead of doing everything they can to push the students into default.

    Imagine...a world where the people who ran the student loan system actually wanted the borrowers to do well, and repay their loans. It's not here now (particularly with former Sallie Mae and NCHELP executives running the Office of Federal Student Aid), but it could be.

    I think when Obama said that the people want "Good Government", this is pretty much what he had in mind.

  • Chaos in Student Loans
  • Posted by bob zier , unemployed at Formerly with Indiana Secondary Market on April 1, 2009 at 8:15am EDT
  • For too long the battle between Direct and FFELP has raged and the students and their parents are the ones who get hurt. Maybe there is a third alternative that can be worked out but that takes compromise but that has not been the case in recent years. I fully agree that there were certain organizations and individuals that undermined the transparency of the FFELP but just like the ways of Wall Street, where were the overseers? I had been in the student loan program for a number of years and have seen many changes and most of them good for the consumer. I saw the disaray of the FISL program and the inability of the Department to manage it (or its losses). I saw the competition among lenders, servicers and guarantors that poorly served their customers and added confusion to the mix. I worked with CBA in the 80's to bring some reason to the student loans program and worked with some great people at the Department who understood the processes were vague and antiquated. For once there was a gleam of light that showed cooperation would work. I saw the Student Loan Servicing Alliance born so that in most cases there was one way to do things and best practices were shared. I saw the Common Manual come together so there was one set of procedures and common rules and practices in the guarantor community and the effort continues today.
    We have seen scandals that the Department was well aware of and did nothing about even though they were repeatedly told. It took the Attorney General in New york to make things happen. There were some apples that were rotten but the majority were doing what needed to be done and trying to do a good job in a hostile goverment enviornment.
    The FFELP has improved, student records have integrity due to the Clearinghouse, a private enterprise that saw the need for accurate records and put the time and effort into providing them. We don't see the number of borrowers who default due to late repayment and overwhelming delinquency. We have seen borrower benefit programs that have reduced the cost of borrowing and incentives for students that helped to repay loans on time. We have seen initiatives by lenders, servicers and guarantors to reach out to students to educate them on the FAFSA, borrowing rights and responsibilities and what they should know about higher education. We have seen questionable schools and lenders put out of business due to policing in the private sector. We have all seen the poor customer relations in the DL program where phones are not answered or loans not made on time or when the consolidation rush hit, they just stopped processing. Yes, there is/was money made on the private side and there is a cost to taxpayers but their is a winner in the students and parents who have lenders, servicers and guarators who care about them and treat them as customers.
    I have seen an industry that was vibrant and caring decimated in the last year due to finacial woes on Wall Street and the lack of a decent return. I had to let a large number of loyal staff go, not because of anything they did wrong but because of the economy. No help from the Feds there, so thousands across this country have become unemployed due to the fiscal crisis and the incorrect belief that Washington can do it better.
    Better to talk about how we do this better on both sides without eliminating the FFELP which has provided more good creative solutions, better customer service and pulled together to advance the best financing process for lending. I know everything is not perfect but the private community has come a long way in thirty years and if you eliminate FFELP, I will hate to see where we will be in five years.

  • A third way WITH bankruptcy (or Fedruptcy) protections!
  • Posted by R.F. on April 1, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • As an FAO with 23 years experience who has worked at various times with both FFELP and DL, and did a short stint as a lender, I believe that neither camp should be so arrogant as to cast the first stone.

    I have known good and bad from both programs and this is one time I believe that "Intelligent Design" should hold sway. Both programs have too many deficiencies to really serve students as they should.

    I hope that responsible and calm individuals will take the long term view necessary to lay infrastructure for the future. The incentives must be towards making all parties behave in a positive, constructive fashion.

    One way to help keep both camps honest would be to return the consumer protections to borrowers that were stripped away.

    It would be a shame to squander the accumulated expertise and knowledge that has been acquired over the last 40 plus years of student lending community. Keep in mind that DL would not exist except that they borrowed expertise from FFELP.

    Unlike those with a personal axe to grind or those who paint all with a broad brush, I know there are very many fine, honest, hard working folks of integrity who should be consulted before throwing the baby out with the bath water.

  • Bankruptcy or irresponsibility
  • Posted by Amanda Livingston on April 1, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • During a time when we have watched people across the country buy homes they simply could not afford, it seems to me like students and parents must also consider affordability when considering college costs. No one talks about saving money for college anymore. Our system does have the capacity to allow students to go to college and amass debt with the willy-nilly attitude that the loans do not have to be paid back. Students like Alan who amassed significant amounts of debt during the pursuit of SEVERAL degrees have to understand that at some point those loans have to be paid back. It's called responsible borrowing. There are safety nets in place with forbeance and deferment options that are intended to help students but borrowers have to take RESPONSIBILITY and fill the forms out. (Dang, there is that word again.) Student who overborrow during college with little or no thought about their total amount of indebtedness or the monthly payments that will be required after graduation are just like the people who buy the big home that is out of their price range and make interest only payments forgetting that a balloon payment looms ahead in only a few years.

    Bankruptcy is not the answer for student loans. The answer is encouraging families to saving for college, plan properly for college attendance and borrow only what the student can afford to pay back. Have we learned nothing from the housing bubble?

  • Get the Government Out!
  • Posted by Shazamm on April 1, 2009 at 1:45pm EDT
  • If the government really wants to reform student loans they should start by getting rid of the Perkins program. The cost/benefit ratio and complexity of that minor program is atrocious.

  • Chaos indeed
  • Posted by lcl on April 1, 2009 at 2:30pm EDT
  • If I recall Alan's personal story he was actually hosed over by his lender, so he will almost certainly remark with personal umbrage at Amanda's remarks.

    But that said, I believe Amanda's comments to be closer to the truth of the larger matter than Alan's, which is somewhat limited by his own experience and public mission.

    Right now there is almost no incentive for students and families to make cost-conscious decisions. The few who brings their own debt-wariness to the table will be, and the majority who aren't debt-wary will rush in full steam. My personal opinion is that financing through debt is at least a part of the system solution, but the truth is we are far too loose in handing out money for college without regard for whether people are making sound choices or even legitimately have any ability to repay down the road.

    At one school in which I worked there was a small, but still notable, segment of the population who were clearly not degree-seeking in any true sense, but were maxing out federal student loans (Stafford/Perkins/PLUS) because they were cut off from other public funding/services (food stamps, housing assistance, etc.). The problem is even worse at the graduate level where the PLUS loan has no maximum borrowing threshhold at all, on top of the roughly $140k graduates can borrow through the Stafford program.

    Greenlighting bankruptcy forgiveness in the manner Alan suggests may rectify a few cases of lender wrong-doing, but it removes what little pitiful protection currently exists against borrowers essentially defrauding the system. Corporations are not the only ones who can scam the public dime by any means.

    The "victory" for Direct Lending will be a pyrrhic one - we will almost certainly see a big rise in defaulted Stafford& PLUS loans over the next decade, which will almost certainly destroy whatever 'profitability' exists in the system. Then people will fall back on the old saw that government can't run a program right, even though the problem will be the eligibility regulations, and not DL itself. I'd put $100 down on that.

  • More gov't mess
  • Posted by DB , Business at Owner on April 1, 2009 at 2:45pm EDT
  • I have noi side in this debate. However, in reading all of the information, it is interesting to note that the current servicer of direct loans, ACS, outsources a great number of their calls to overseas countries. And, one of the companies that wants to service these loans, Sallie Mae, does the same thing.

    So, let's add to the debate how much money this program is really costing, factoring in that the gov't is contracting with companies that are taking jobs overseas.

    Does not really make much sense to me.

  • No Accountability
  • Posted by Muneerah Crawford on April 1, 2009 at 2:45pm EDT
  • Currently there is no oversight into illegal practices by lenders and loan guarantee companies. The US Department of Education is supposed to be overseeing the whole loan industry and making sure that lenders and loan guarantee companies are not illegally profiting off these loans. I am a victim who has not been heard in any media forum. For nine years I have dealt with two very corrupt companies, Citibank Student Loan and Edfund an agency of the California Student Aid Commission. Last September 2008, CSACs director tried to clean up Edfund which has an unusually high rate of default. The problem is very extensive as California is the largest state that provides student loans, and there is one agency that handles all of those loans, California Student Aid Commission. An audit by the state of california in 2006 found wrong doing on the part of Edfund. When the director of CSAC attempted to go forward with the 68 recommendations of the audit, he was fired. I personally observed Banks and Loan Companies operating with predatory practices back in 1998. The two main Companies Citibank Student Loan and Sallie Mae were forcing students to only borrow from them. They took over student loan meetings and refused to let students consider another lender. The students who applied for loans through another lender or bank found out that Sallie Mae had purchased their loans. Hearing that the Obama administration was proposing to take over the loan program, was refreshing news but does not solve the problem. There are literally thousands of students in default in this country. Those students cannot work or own a bank account. They cannot contribute one cent to the economy. I would appreciate it if the US government would take back my defaulted loan, remove the interest that was illegally capitalized on the loan and then make reasonable repayment arrangements with me. I cannot wait until next year. I will be forced to take legal action very soon.

     

  • Back to Chaos
  • Posted by One more thing , Working hard at Forever in debt on April 1, 2009 at 3:45pm EDT
  • To Chaos indeed:

    I have heard the argument concerning these supposed non-degree seeking deadbeats whose only interest was getting government loans and never paying them back.

    Do you really believe that removing bankruptcy protections for consumers have stopped them? Such individuals would not have bothered with bankruptcy before and I am sure do not now. The only way to prevent them form obtaining loans is to erect better safeguards in admissions and continuing students, better counseling. Do more upfront at the school level to prevent these types of students from seeking and obtaining financial aid.

    If you ask me, supporters of removal of bankruptcy protections have taken a tank out in an effort to weed out a forest of mosquitoes, yes they maybe kill a couple of mosquitoes, but in the effort they destroy mostly new tree seedling.

  • Arrogance
  • Posted by Alan Collinge , Founder at StudentLoanJustice.Org on April 1, 2009 at 3:45pm EDT
  • Amanda Livingstone uses the shameless tactic of presuming that all defaulted borrowers whose loans are in default chose not to pay. She obviously did not read my post or is too self-interested to acknowledge my point that the system is designed to benefit when students do default, so borrowers are being railroaded into default despite their best efforts to maintain their loans in good stead ( as in my case, which I am tired of retelling, frankly).

    Livingstone arrogantly pronounces that "Bankuptcy isn't the answer". By what authority or wisdom does miss Livinsgtone feel she can make such a statement? Bankruptcy is a bedrock, fundamental consumer protection that is available to all Americans, for all loans...except the one unique case of student loans. Please explain, Amanda.

    Perhaps Amanda explain to Brian Galloway, who has been strongarmed through garnishment into repaying $107,000 on $65,000 in student loans, yet still owes $100,000, why he shouldn't have the right to file, even though the bankruptcy laws have been strengthened to protect against fraud and abuse.

    Perhaps Amanda can tell Barbara, a 71 year old widow in Tennesse whose Social Security income- her only means of survival, is garnisheed every month, why this this lost income (which often forces her to choose between medication and food) is better used to feed the student loan system.

    Perhaps Amanda Livingstone can tell Courtney, a cancer patient in Texas whose loans have doubled from $12,000 to $24,000 since she was diagnosed, why she shouldn't have the right to access bankruptcy protections, but should instead accept responsibility for her actions, and find a way to pay this increased amount (her loans never defaulted, by the way, Amanda).

    Should I go on? I can, almost at random, pick stories such as these. I know you financial aid people, and student loan people are accustomed to an easy life, where you can point the finger at the irresponsibility of the students all day long while sucking your fat paychecks from their future livelihoods, But sooner or later, reality is going to come crashing down around you, and ultimately, you will wish that you have been fighting for the student borrowers all these years, instead of against them. Hopefully it will be sooner, rather than later.

     

  • Posted by Matthew Gymer on April 1, 2009 at 3:45pm EDT
  • I might suggest that one way to frame a “third way” to administer student loan programs, a way to view this problem solving exercise that would value input from all entities, would be think in terms of matching resources to better meet the needs of students. In order to do that, we all must agree that evidence-based solutions are the way to move forward with any program augmentation.

     

    In a world where resource allocation and new business models are demanding strong leadership, it only makes sense to agree on a set of meaningful rules from which we all operate. Making decisions based on what the data tells us is the place to start – in this case what the data tells us about creating access and choice for students. Devoting to evidence based decision making will strip away the other noise in the system, pushing the “tired debates” into a more objectionable place.

     

    No matter what constituency one happens to represent in the fragmented world of financial aid administration, we must agree on the framework of how we proceed to create a sustainable and substantive model for aid administration. I suggest we all agree to focus on the data, to build new mechanisms in order to get the evidence/data we need, and move forward making evidence based decisions in order to build products and services that actually deliver the results that we expect in this rapidly evolving economy.

  • It's Taking Too Long for Amanda to Get It
  • Posted by Belinda on April 1, 2009 at 5:15pm EDT
  • Amanda,

    1. When most students borrowed, they had bankruptcy protection. The government reneged on those contracts by making lifetime loan contracts retroactive. That is a bad example to set for our children. It is a failure on the part of the government. People who would never have contracted under those terms were stuck.

    The people who borrowed afterwards felt the nationwide and family pressure to accept the vast amount of information the US acquired for its future generation to carry the baton of knowledge into the future to give to their children. There was a time when a high school education was sufficient to get a great job and start a thriving business with many workers. That changed. So, when the latter group borrowed, it was at a time when we frowned upon those who chose to go through life uneducated in the richest country in the world. But the latter group was lied to about their prospects. No one told them their management and technical jobs were getting shipped and eliminated. No one seemed to notice we only had one growing industry--housing. Even loan collection jobs were given to foreign citizens. In short, people used their intelligence to get the information that had to get handed down to them for the US to remain competitive. But companies and politicians sold their future incomes to the highest bidder, literally and figuratively. If there were ample opportunities to succeed, this wouldn't be an issue. If these loans weren't removing flexibility for retraining, this wouldn't be an issue. Just try to start a business on your own dime after you borrow to get educated. Health insurance will be your second hurdle and you won't get over it. So, most of the great new ideas are under-funded. Most of the people who would have created jobs over the last 15 years have had to work for someone else, instead.

    2. There is no moral that favors the lender over the borrower - our forefathers, Jesus, the bible, Shakespeare, and good parents will tell you "neither a borrower nor lender be". That's why bankruptcy protection is the only way to keep this country whole and stable. Angry voices are getting much louder now. The anger is not going to go away simply because you passed judgment on these people and found them lacking.

    3. One day, like my doctor, you will be able to take measure of the full impact of giving the Department of Education absolute power, perhaps when your child or grandchild is working at a low wage job because she couldn't afford community college or couldn't get in because community college was too competitive. Or your brilliant child can't get a scholarship and wastes all his talent on wishful thinking because he can't get the lessons he needs to make a big splash on a noisy planet that really would appreciate him if he weren't such a rough diamond.

    4. Whenever anyone in this country ever asked how to get ahead, they were told to increase their education, until now. Now, we don't know what to tell them.

    5. Some jobs require great minds and/or talent and the affluent families don't have all the great minds and talent.

    6. Ever ask yourself what happens if we continue to force all student borrowers to pay the debt until death? We're in the first wave now. Children aren't encouraged so much to continue their education and are dropping out because the ladder to success has gotten too risky to climb; entrepreneurship is discouraged because it is too risky; we're far less competitive than countries that aren't burdening their children with great debt; the government is treating student debtors like sharecroppers. The logical conclusion to staying on this course is that the government will begin to choose your career for you after testing you and provide your schooling, and send you to work for government purposes for life. People like you will think that sounds good because you haven't tasted democracy and freedom in a long time.

  • meanwhile in the rest of the anglo world
  • Posted by conor king , principal consultant on April 1, 2009 at 7:15pm EDT
  • the question of bankruptcy, loan default etc is all nicely sidestepped by student loans systems that are repaid based according to annual income each year. If income is less than a set amount nothing need be repaid; over that threshold (variously set but approximating the salary of a new graduate) repayments are made as a % of income (3%, 4%, 9% - depending on country and income thresholds) as part of national income taxation.

  • 15 years ago since my last SL
  • Posted by In debt forever , Looking for Change at Prestigious University on April 2, 2009 at 5:30am EDT
  • I agree there needs to be better choices made by students about where to go, and colleges on who to let in.

    Here was what I faced some 18 years ago. I had previously gone to a state school, had a smallish student loan load and did really well on the LSAT. Thus, I was picked up not only by my inexpensive state bottom tiered school, but a couple of power houses as well. I tell you the recruitment propaganda I read was pretty darn good. Sure they were expensive, but hey their students graduate and earn starting salaries in the very high five figures, and in a year or two are earning six figures. While the state school was essentially free, the degree would only be really appreciated in the state itself, and no one expected to make more then mid-fives.

    So what do you think my family, friends, professionals, guidance counselors and FAA’s recommended… you got it. Of course I thought it was an impossible dream come true.
    The funny thing is the economy tanked when I graduated; I was forced to lean on my family and attempt to open up my own business. Student loan Payments of some type were made for several years on a timely basis. Unfortunately death, disease, accidents, divorce happened next. I tried to keep up with payments, or get deferments, but when my house was foreclosed (did I mention a mini bubble real estate bubble also burst leaving me over leveraged in the home mortgage) and I was forced to bounce from one rental room to another, it all finally fell apart, and I fell into depression. Oh I kept working, tour guide, bus driver, whatever I could get, but it did not create enough funds to meet my rent must less a minimum on the student loans. They went into default, quadrupled in value.
    So yes, in retrospect I should have recognized my place as one of the lower middle class. A person that should not have thought education would be that good of an investment, and I should have kept my place and gone to the state school. I would still have had a bad career with no chance of real success, but hey I would not owe hundreds of thousands of dollars of accumulated interest.
    I do not know, but it seems to me that CEO’s of certain big corps get to keep their houses and lives even though they make a mistake that costs all of us trillions of dollars. It seems to me I should be forgiven for the risk I took and given a chance to put together a college fund for my 2 year old so he never has to face this kind of heart ache. In fact I am sure the executives of certain big private graduate loan guarantors did not loss any of their bonuses when they pushed their own company into bankruptcy, thus allowing them to renegotiate, refinance, and restructure the company’s business.
    I am not saying I should not pay anything, but I do hope we can find a way for the future generations to get good educations without this absurd expense. But please give me some breathing room, in whatever plan you put together and support, return standard protections of bankruptcy, give us a fighting chance.

  • The truth of the matter
  • Posted by Brian Galloway , indentured servant of Sallie Mae at www.studentloanjustice.org on April 2, 2009 at 2:30pm EDT
  • lcl writes "I believe Amanda's comments to be closer to the truth of the larger matter than Alan's, which is somewhat limited by his own experience and public mission."

    What is the 'larger truth' of this matter?

    The entire student loan industry is built upon the personal experiences of borrowers. Without borrowers, there would be no student loan industry.

    I submit to you that the 'larger truth' is really an issue of public policy and the public interest. What legitimate public interest is served by creating a caste of permanently indentured servants? Never in our history has the enrichment of a few at the (harmful) expense of many been considered a legitimate public interest. Wait, I take that back. Slavery at one time was considered justifiable and good for society. Look where that led the nation....

  • Real Arrogance
  • Posted by Jerry in LA , Tired of the irresponsible on April 3, 2009 at 1:00pm EDT
  • It is so sad when people come on here and plead for their socialist causes - 'I know I borrowered a lot of money I shouldn't have, but I shouldn't have to pay it back. They MADE me borrower the money.'

    Alan, please please please stop your statements like "Bankruptcy is a bedrock, fundamental consumer protection that is available to all Americans, for all loans...except the one unique case of student loans." You trash Amanda with a false statement? How about the truth? Effective October 8, 1998, a borrower's obligation to repay Title IV, HEA student loan and grant liabilities can no longer be canceled (discharged) due to bankruptcy, UNLESS you can successfully prove that repayment of the debt would cause "undue hardship" as defined by case law in your jurisdiction. Maybe, Alan, you have a beef with your local judicial system? Regardless, there ARE bankruptcy provisions! And for the record, there ARE consumer protections also!!

    Oh, and speaking of 'arrogance', here's a nice one......."and I should have kept my place and gone to the state school. I would still have had a bad career with no chance of real success, but hey I would not owe hundreds of thousands of dollars of accumulated interest." Very nice, Mr. 'In Debt Forever'. "It seems to me I should be forgiven for the risk I took." The 75% of us lowly state educated Americans think you should repay your loans.

    Brian asks, "What is the 'larger truth' of this matter?" As Amanda aluded to, the truth is we are over-borrowering in this country on many things, including higher ed. The truth is - GO TO A SCHOOL YOU CAN AFFORD.

    And if I may help, Belinda ("Now, we don't know what to tell them"), see my previous statement to Brian. What do you tell an 18 year old who wants a new Lexus?

  • Tell me more
  • Posted by Interested Party on April 3, 2009 at 1:00pm EDT
  • While student loans are not normally dischargeable in bankruptcy, they can be discharged if the debtor files an Adversary Petition and the judge rules in the debtor's favor. I ask this in all sincerity: why are the debtors, well-intentioned but battered by circumstances, not able to take advantage of this? Are the standards for approval of such a petition too high, or is there a lack of awareness?

  • RE: Tell me more
  • Posted by Brian Galloway at www.studentloanjustice.org on April 3, 2009 at 3:00pm EDT
  • The test for the Adversary proceeding is very difficult to meet, almost impossible for most. Even if a borrower becomes disabled, there's no provision made for that, unless the disability is 100% as certified by a doctor. Not even 99% disabled, but 100%.

  • RE: Real Arrogance
  • Posted by Brian Galloway on April 3, 2009 at 3:00pm EDT
  • I agree with you, Jerry in LA, that borrowers should pay back their loans. That's why I've paid $106,000 over the last 7-8 years on a principal balance of nearly $65,000. Your argument falls flat, though, when faced with the fact that my lenders claim I still owe $153,000. There is no legitimate public policy being served by creating a caste of permanently indentured servants. Sound public policy looks at the long-term benefits to all the people, not just the short-term benefits to a few at the (adverse) expense of many. That's the issue that Student Loan Justice is addressing.

  • RE: Undue Hardship Test
  • Posted by Brian Galloway on April 3, 2009 at 3:15pm EDT
  • This test is extremely difficult to meet. And it's expensive to pursue because of the time and effort involved. Often the people who need it the most have the least ability to pay the legal costs. In the Western Washington district of bankruptcy court, there have been very few 'undue hardship' exemptions granted.

  • Sounds crazy, Matthew Gymer ...
  • Posted by Quentin Wilson , President at ALL Student Loan on April 3, 2009 at 4:45pm EDT
  • ... but it just might work.

  • You Cannot Govern without Compassion
  • Posted by Belinda on April 6, 2009 at 3:00pm EDT
  • Jerry, what part of your argument shows one ounce of compassion for your fellow human beings? Looking at all the revolutions in history, what caused those revolutions that lead to all the previous regime changes? A lack of compassion. And when the revolt was quelled, citizens lost even more rights. You are actually arguing for indentured servitude. We've already learned this lesson in this country. We've already had people like you arguing that slavery is necessary. But Democracy is based on compassion. When it is gone, so is Democracy.

    You are arguing for the continuance of a financial debacle. Our nation is building up toxic debt with people like you saying look the other way and it'll all go away. This isn't unprecedented territory.

    And, by the way, the 3-pronged test for undue hardship can't even be met if your hands fall off, or if you have cancer, or if you've been out of work for five years recovering from an illness. Too bad if you need medicine (see the Supreme Court case). Too bad if you need psychiatric help (but notice the number of multiple shootings is increasing week by week).

    Your response shows a lack of wisdom and knowledge. And the kid who wants a Lexus needs to start his own business and hope for the best because going to college is no guarantee that he will get one. In fact, it'll make it take even longer if it can ever happen.

  • I can't believe that I'm saying it,
  • Posted by DFS on April 7, 2009 at 5:00pm EDT
  • but Jerry in LA is exactly right.
    A contract is a contract.
    And please, let's everyone remember that one.

  • Posted by aciran on April 8, 2009 at 8:15pm EDT
  • Yes, the lender has to take on a risk too; not just the borrower. That is what usury laws are for, that is what the entire legal framework is built on in the US, and was that way for student loans too until a minority of right wing politicians decided to change it for student loans, thereby creating a lucrative private industry, allowing the colleges to soar their tuition rates into the sky, and and turning students into indentured servants. It is a scam, and no, I'm not going to pay the 80,000+ that they saw I owe (note the difference between what I borrowed and what I "owe", which is in the tens of thousands) I'm going to fight for justice and fairness; since the students have taken huge hits, let the student loan industry, let the for-profit aspects of the colleges in this country, and the mastercard senators take a hit too. You lent up to $100,000 to an 18 year old who still didn't know what he wanted to do with his life, and had no garuntee of being able to finish his degree or enter a healthy job market? It looks like YOU were the stupid, irresponsible waste, not him.

    I'd go further to say, in fact, that education should be free in this country, from pre-school to phd, vocation, art school, or medical/law school. The citizens of many European countries have won this as a concession from their government, and it is time that America joins them.

  • student loans
  • Posted by Sandy on April 9, 2009 at 5:30am EDT
  • Alan Collinge speaks the truth about the student loan buisiness.It's nothing but a scam.In 1978 I took out a student loan and cancelled it a few days later.In 1997 I was informed by the Dept of ED that I owe on a student loan the same one that I cancelled 20 years earlier,and have been fighting this ever since.They finally sold it to a collection agency that specializies in recovering student loans,they have garnished my disability check tacked on collection fees late fees and what ever fees they fell like and it changes daily trying to talk to them is like talking to a brick wall,at this rate I will be lucky if I pay this loan off in 15 years,and this is a loan I cancelled 31 years ago.Oh by the way the loan was only $2500.00 they refuse to tell me what my balance is. Alan I loved your book,you keep up the fight Iam on your side.

  • Guarantors/Lenders have Loan Discharges Available
  • Posted by Matt on April 9, 2009 at 1:45pm EDT
  • If you are truly disabled and cannot work, why haven't you applied for a Loan Discharge? They are fairly easy to obtain... fill out a form, have your physician indicate what your medical condition is and why it prevents you from working... Your guarantor will grant conditional discharge (which calls off the collection agencies)and forwards your app to ED; ED will let you know what requirements you need to meet for 3 years before you are granted permanent discharge...

    No one has mentioned this in the other comments I read, so I thought I would.

  • restore consumer protections to student loans
  • Posted by Kay Oliver on April 15, 2009 at 5:00pm EDT
  • I agree with the following comment by Alan Collinge (and the rest of his comment as well): "What about the novel concept of returning the fundamental consumer protections to student loans? Bankruptcy was taken away under what proved to be false pretenses (when student loans were dischargeable in BK court, less than 1% of federal student loans were discharged), and the people who promised that all the other takeaways from the borrowers, and giveaways to the lending system would result in a lower default rate obviously lied , and continue to lie when they brag about low default rate."