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Matches and Mismatches in Producing Ph.D.'s

April 15, 2009

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SAN DIEGO -- In theory, these days, everyone agrees that attrition in Ph.D. programs is a real problem. Graduate students don't want to spend years in programs from which they will never graduate, and universities don't want to support those who won't complete their programs. Also in theory these days, most academics agree that it's crucial to expand the diversity of the Ph.D. pipeline so that the candidates for faculty positions represent a broader demographic than the current professoriate.

Research presented Tuesday here at the annual meeting of the American Educational Research Association challenged higher education a bit on both of these supposed consensuses.

One study -- comparing the attitudes of students and faculty members at the same university about why some graduate students leave -- suggested quite a gap in views, and a gap that exposes that many professors feel that they don't need to worry about graduate student attrition. Another study examined why some undergraduate institutions have uncommon levels of success in sending minority students on to doctoral programs -- suggesting that there are approaches that could be used by many other institutions.

The Attitude Gap on Graduate School Attrition

To explore the differing attitudes on graduate student attrition, Susan K. Gardner conducted in-depth interviews with 60 doctoral students and 34 faculty members at one doctoral university. Gardner, assistant professor of higher education at the University of Maine, interviewed students and professors in six departments, with Ph.D. completion rates from a low of 17.6 percent to a high of 76.5 percent.

She found that while faculty members blame students for leaving, students have a different view. The top reasons faculty members cited were that students were lacking (53 percent), the student shouldn't have enrolled in the first place (21 percent) or the student had personal problems (15 percent). The list prompted a few chuckles in the audience and comments after the presentation about how these same faculty members convinced that students were at fault had admitted these students to their programs. Notably, Gardner said that the attitudes were largely consistent with the graduate program had a high completion rate or a low one. Graduate students interviewed cited personal problems as the top reason some leave (34 percent), departmental issues (30 percent) and issues of fit (21 percent).

Gardner read quotes from her interviews with the faculty members, many of whom seem to accept the idea that they will admit significant numbers of graduate students who will never finish. "Not everybody who starts their Ph.D. is going to finish it and some are just not up to the job," said one. Several talked about students who lack enough drive. "Some of them area not willing to work hard enough. ... I think it's a lack of focus," said one.

Many professors also seemed to see the issue as one in which students "drift" into graduate school, and don't belong there. "There are always going to be some students who really shouldn't be in graduate school to begin with. They're smart, they did well on the GRE's and so they come to graduate school and they're just not as motivated as they should be," one professor told Gardner.

Professors also tended to classify pregnancy as a personal problem and one that would invariably lead students to drop out. One faculty member, asked about departmental attrition, said: "I think the others we lost were female. They got pregnant."

In contrast, the graduate students -- while seeing personal issues as relevant -- also outlined a range of issues such as departmental politics and lack of advising as influencing decisions to leave programs. In addition, many mentioned money, with one typical quote being: "You cannot put a family to live on $12,000 a year forever. I mean, it's impossible."

Gardner suggested that there are a variety of reasons graduate students leave programs. But she said the depth of faculty feeling that student attrition is not the professors' fault at all raised real questions about whether graduate programs are really taking the attrition issue as seriously as many would like to think.

Producing Minority Ph.D.'s

Another top issue in graduate education is that of attracting more minority students. A paper by Valerie Lundy-Wagner, Julie Vultaggio and Marybeth Gasman of the University of Pennsylvania focused on which institutions produce the most minority graduates who go on to earn doctorates. They took data from the Survey of Earned Doctorates to analyze which minority students were earning doctorates and then went back to identify the institutions that these students attended as undergraduates. (The National Science Foundation released a study exploring some of this ground last year, but the NSF focused only on math and science degrees, not all doctorates.)

Their analysis looked at total numbers, not at percentages of minority students. Not surprisingly, historically black colleges and those with large Latino enrollments did well. But so did some predominantly white institutions. Lundy-Wagner described how the institutions that produce many minority undergraduates who go on to doctorates have specific programs to expose minority students to the research experience. For example, she noted a University of California at San Diego program that sponsors a summer research program, a statewide symposium on research and mentoring for minority science students.

Gasman said that the predominantly white institutions that do well in these rankings "tended to have programs or practices that were similar to what happens at historically black colleges and some Hispanic-serving institutions -- close relationships of faculty and students, exposure to research, programs where you could have lunch with faculty, exposure to the faculty way of life."

She added that seeing these patterns suggests the lost potential from more institutions not making similar efforts. "You have a small number of institutions doing this really good work, and other institutions don't seem to know how to do it," she said.

Here are the institutions that were identified in the study.

Top Institutions at Producing Minority Graduates Who Go on to Earn Doctorates

Rank Black Latino Asian
1. Howard U. U. of Puerto Rico at Piedras U. of California at Berkeley
2. Spelman College U. of Puerto Rico at Mayaguez U. of California at Los Angeles
3. Florida A&M U. U. of California at Los Angeles Massachusetts Institute of Technology
4. Hampton U. U. of Texas at Austin Harvard U.
5. Southern U. Florida International U. U. of California at San Diego
6. Jackson State U. U. of Texas at El Paso Cornell U.
7. Morehouse College Harvard U. Stanford U.
8. U. of Michigan U. of Florida U. of Hawaii at Manoa
9. North Carolina A&T U. U. of New Mexico U. of Michigan
10. U. of California at Berkeley U. of Arizona U. of California at Davis
See all postings »
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Comments on Matches and Mismatches in Producing Ph.D.'s

  • Quod Erat Demonstratum
  • Posted by Been there, done that on April 15, 2009 at 8:15am EDT
  • So here we have data on students who were qualified enough to be admitted, cared enough to complete the sometimes onerous application process, showed up knowing they'd be broke for at least the next four years, and dropped out anyway. And we ask the students, and they say they couldn't take all the department politics and the lack of advisement. And we ask the faculty, and they say they just don't care and it's not their fault and it's not their responsibility to do anything about it. Sounds to me like the students have a point, doesn't it? My first go-round in grad school (in the lift sciences at an R-1 university), my advisor was not well-respected by the other faculty and operated in relative isolation. He was also a socially dysfunctional hermit and resisted speaking to his own graduate students whenever possible, to the point where I received no mentoring or advisement of any kind whatsoever. I brought this to the attention of the department head, who, among other things, was not aware that the grad student handbook to which he often referred did not, in fact, exist at all. It was like training myself to be a scientists in a vacuum. I happened to be at a seminar with the associate dean one day, and I said to her, "When grad students drop out, does anybody ever follow up with them to ask them why?" She looked at me as if that thought had never occurred to her. I was so disheartened that I sank into depression, wound up with a severe stress-related illness, and dropped out. No doubt by the time I left, I would have been labeled as "having personal problems" by the very same faculty who do not seek in any way to determine whether their own behavior fosters the development of "personal problems" in their graduate students. That was 15 years ago. Nice to know nothing has changed.

  • Posted by Steve on April 15, 2009 at 8:30am EDT
  • There are other reasons why doctoral students don't complete as well that are not explored in this article, but which are well known to readers of the Chronicle and other e-mail lists for grad students and post-docs: students decide they don't want a career in academia, and either leave before they complete the degree, or complete the degree and then look outside the academy for work. This is due both to the horrible job market for Ph.D.s, and to the fact that it takes some people a while to discover that they don't want to be a professor.

    I also got a chuckle from the statement that students drop out because they're not good students. Why weren't they screened out beforehand by the people who ultimately admitted them? Sure, you can't always tell, but in many cases you can, especially if the students are already known quantities at the admitting institutions.

  • Unsubstantiated Editorial Assertion
  • Posted by ACF on April 15, 2009 at 8:30am EDT
  • "...most academics agree that it's crucial to expand the diversity of the Ph.D. pipeline so that the candidates for faculty positions represent a broader demographic than the current professoriate." 

    This statement is not substantiated in the article. Is it not the case that most academics want to have the highest quality students in their PhD program? Is it also not true that those are the students who will best compete with the massively undiverse student populations in China and other countries?

  • Posted by Mr Punch on April 15, 2009 at 9:15am EDT
  • Of course many students drop out because they decide they don't want to be professors (and they may not get much help thinking about alternatives), they don't want to be adjuncts, they don't want to be unemployed, they want to choose where they'll live, or they can't hack the forgone earnings. But the "screening" issue (which is tangled up with expectations and financial support) is also significant. A generation ago, as a graduate student in a top-ranked (non-science) program at a top-ranked university, I was told straight out that the policy at this public institution was to admit all plausible graduate applicants, and accept a great deal of attrition. This policy persisted, and was a point of pride, even in the face of a funding formula designed to reward degree completion.

    When my daughter was applying to grad school in History a few years ago, it was evident to me that even elite programs have differing philosophies. Some departments admit small numbers of students with substantial aid packages for all, while others admit many more, but often without support. (I suspect that the latter group considers its approach more "egalitarian" -- I don't..) There is a tendency for the first group to be independents, the second publics, but that's not strictly true -- the one includes Michigan as well as Yale, the other (apparently) Chicago as well as Berkeley. A study comparing the outcomes of these approaches would be useful, I think.

  • No preferences. Just saying.
  • Posted by Roger Clegg , President and General Counsel at Center for Equal Opportunity on April 15, 2009 at 9:30am EDT
  • It's interesting that none of the top ten black schools is likely to give much of a preference to African Americans in admissions, either because they are HCBUs or because they are forbidden to do so by state law. I know that the significance of this can be disputed (California cheats, Michigan's law is pretty recent, etc.), but I'm just saying.

  • Posted by newly minted Ph.D. , Assistant Professor, Modern Languages and Literatures at Texas Christian University on April 15, 2009 at 9:45am EDT
  • Since when is getting pregnant a "personal problem?"

  • Seeing myself in this article...
  • Posted by doctoral student , College of Education at Big State U. on April 15, 2009 at 10:00am EDT
  • ...as a graduate student who is considering becoming part of that high attrition rate. I have been working for several years on a Ph.D. in education, while working full-time in a professional staff position at my institution. I wasn't unprepared, having already earned a masters in another field, and possessing an excellent academic record and plenty of professional drive. But I have found that many professors consider my job to be a "personal problem" that cuts into the time I can devote to the program. What they don't understand is that I couldn't be in the program at all if I didn't have a full-time job to provide a living wage and free tuition. When I explain to them that I can't sacrifice my health insurance, my mortgage money, my retirement savings and other benefits to spend a year living on $10k of dissertation-writing support, they nod, but I don't think they get it. The fact that I don't show up at many department social events or colloquia seems to be counted against me, although the reason I can't attend those events is because I am *at work* when they are held during business hours. Essentially, I have been told that it will be nearly impossible for me to complete the dissertation and thus the degree unless I leave my full-time job. And I'm not leaving my job.
    Furthmore, there is virtually NO support for students who embark upon the Ph.D. program with the goal of furthering a non-teaching career. I'm not particularly interested in being a professor, and entered the program with the idea of advancing my career as a professional in higher ed development and advancement. There is no support for this goal within the department, and I haven't found it elsewhere in the university, as the only professional development and career counseling programs for grad students focus on teaching careers.
    I love my subject matter, but the practicalities of pursuing this degree are about to defeat me.

  • PhD drop outs
  • Posted by Jeff Frelinger , Professor/Micro&Immunol at UNC-CH on April 15, 2009 at 10:30am EDT
  • I don't know about the humanities and social sciences, but in biomedical science we get an appreciable number of students who discover they don't like the grind of lab work- along with the repeated failure even when they are doing everything right. I think the failure of the faculty is that we don't encourage those students to do something else early in their careers instead of gutting out their PhD. Rarely is the problem the lack of intellectual ability.

  • Personal Responsibility
  • Posted by Dr. Responsibility on April 15, 2009 at 11:45am EDT
  • I am a Ph.D. of a program where I worked full time. I certainly understand the challenges of working full time and trying to obtain a Ph.D. I believe it IS possible, and those students who go this route need to realize that you have to take some personal responsibility in this endeavor. It seems many people/students want to blame somebody else for their inability to achieve or finish their program. I sacraficed tremendously to keep my full time job and finish my Ph.D. I was up late during the week, and spent every hour on Saturdays and Sundays studying and writing. I did this for years. Nobody held my hand through the process, but this is part of getting a Ph.D. Professors expect you to take initiative, be creative, come up with ideas, and move the dissertation forward, with some advisement along the way. Certainly there are professors that are too hadns off, but students need to understand that getting a Ph.D. is not easy, nor should it be easy. If it was easy, everyone would have one and the degree wouldn't be nearly as valuable.

  • Reply to "newly minted."
  • Posted by Ralphinjersey on April 15, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • When your husband has been out of town for a year?

  • Minority data should be adjsuted
  • Posted by DG on April 15, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • Most of the institutions showing up as "top" producers of minority graduates who go on to earn a Ph.D. are either HBCU's or large universities. I'd be interested to rank the schools not be the number of graduates, but by the number per hundred students at the school. I would expect that many small colleges, that have the attributes of high student engagement discussed in the article, would rank higher than the mega-universities listed in the chart.

  • My own 2-cent
  • Posted by Dr. Paul A. Machen II , Academic Advisor III at University of Texas at San Antonio on April 15, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • I am an African American who just completed a PhD program after seven years. I was active duty Air Force for most of this time and it was difficult to find time to work in this degree. It was hard, but it did it.

    Bottomline: Completing a doctoral program was a lot of work and should be that way so that only the best and brightest can finish; no matter what gender or color.

    Dr. Paul Machen

  • Posted by DFS on April 15, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • I like how the statement, "...that the predominantly white institutions that do well in these rankings 'tended to have programs or practices that were similar to what happens at historically black colleges and some Hispanic-serving institutions -- close relationships of faculty and students, exposure to research, programs where you could have lunch with faculty, exposure to the faculty way of life'" should project well towards everyone.
    If all doctoral institutions took this approach towards every individual candidate, the results should be the same as that at HBCU's.
    Any fault then lies with both the faculty and the institution -- and, since the faculty ultimately runs the institution, the fault lies with the faculty.

  • Right way to a PhD
  • Posted by SLP on April 15, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • I found my Professors had difficulty understanding that there are different routes to a PhD. The vast majority of them had the luxury of dedicating 5-10 years immersed in their programs with reasonable expectation of a tenure track position afterwards. They fondly recall their "traditional" graduate student life (poverty, late night chats with their colleagues, taking a first job in Timbuktu) and see this all as a rite of passage. They simply couldn't understand why I would want to muck everything all up by doing things out of order, like getting pregnant while writing a dissertation, or focusing on teaching rather than publishing, or choosing where to settle prior to accepting job offer. As long as there remains a system in which only those who follow the normal path get tenure and those who don't leave academia or scrape together a living as an adjunct, I can't see this attitude changing much. I finished, but I'm not in a position where I can offer support for up and coming women who might need it.

  • attrition data
  • Posted by Lydia Soleil, Ph.D. , Asst. Dir., Center for the Enhancement of Teaching and Learning at Georgia Tech on April 15, 2009 at 1:45pm EDT
  • There is Ph.D. attrition research by Barbara Lovitts (most notably) and others that indicate that attrition is NOT higher amoung those with lower undergrad GPA, GRE scores, etc. Also the Council of Graduate Schools (CSG) is sponsoring a study (http://www.phdcompletion.org/) looking at this issue and possible interventions. At a lot of institutions, the rates aren't even tracked! I for one, believe the rates of graduate retention should be tracked and publicized as they are for undergraduate retention/attrition through the Common Data Set. Yes, there are some complications with tracking graduate students but I think they can be addressed by a common set of rules about how the numbers will be tracked (as CGS created for their study).

  • Matches and Mismatches in Producing Ph.D.'s
  • Posted by Professor Dr. Douglas M. Cotner , Chief Scientist and Director at The Hemispheric Research Laboratory and Policy Institute on April 15, 2009 at 1:45pm EDT
  • The first requirement for a successful doctoral program candidate is that he/she has chosen to pursue the life of the mind. This choice means that a person so inclined has decided to sacrifice their life to the scholarship they have decided to pursue. This kind of mental attitude greatly amplifies persistence and the retention of students in doctoral programs. Thus, the idea of; Get a doctorate-get a job is simply wrong headed. The notion of doctoral degrees as jobs programs has infected graduate schools to the point of distraction. Though the life of the mind as the basis for a decision to earn a doctoral degree may be regarded as an old fashion concept to the many denizens that inhabit the Academy, such an idea has never been more important than right now.   

  • Variety of Institutions
  • Posted by Harvey Waterman , Associate Dean of the Graduate School at Rutgers-New Brunswick on April 15, 2009 at 3:00pm EDT
  • There are many kinds of institutions and many different kinds of admissions practices. Most major graduate schools try to limit their admissions to the number of support packages they have and in most cases these schools are competitive enough that they admit only students with a high likelihood of success. Attrition is real at these schools too, but it is more modest and it is much less likely to get the kind of faculty disparagement of dropouts that is reported in the one study in this article. No doubt faculty members and graduate students report differently anywhere, but highly selective schools with limited admissions generally do quite well. There are a few prestigious schools that do not follow this pattern--Berkeley is the best known of them--but they have gradually become the exception in this respect. In short, studies of this kind only have meaning if they identify the competitiveness of the school and the admissions policy it adopts.

  • Combination of Factors Unmentioned
  • Posted by TS on April 15, 2009 at 4:15pm EDT
  • As another reader said, there were what seems to be obvious issues that went unexplored. The reason that I dropped out of my program was a combination of factors. Education is an investment and most people (especially working adults) want a return. I was already in debt from my prior Master's and undergraduate programs. If you combine my existing student loan debt with the job market for PhDs plus the ability to make more money without the PhD, add in the debt that would be accumulated from the PhD, and throw in the time that I had to put into it that could be spent in other more meaningful areas of my life, then you have why I dropped out.

    What might have changed my mind? Less debt from the start. Having a heavy student loan payment can really diminish your quality of life even if you get a good paying job post-PhD.

  • the life of the mind?
  • Posted by David McKay on April 15, 2009 at 5:45pm EDT
  • Whenever I hear the term "life of the mind" airily thrown about as a description of what PhDs are supposed to dedicate themselves toward, I always check to see if the person doing so already has a high-paying, satisfying job in their chosen field. I have never found otherwise.

    The problem with the way this whole graduate school process is set up is that there is an incredible selection bias in terms of the people who staff the system, and it gets more and more intense the further up the ladder you go.

    Graduate school is vo-tech for nerds - a category in which I proudly include myself. We're already different from the vast majority of people we will teach at the college level, simply because you can't survive in graduate school without at minimum being the sort of person who would read that stuff for fun on the beach. Those who survive the process tend to be even more so than that - people willing at least temporarily to sacrifice ever other aspect of their world (family, material comfort, physical and psychological health, etc.) in order to read and do that stuff. Those who prosper in running graduate programs afterward tend to put less emphasis on the "temporarily" part of that sentence - and in my experience such people have little sympathy or understanding of people who don't think along those lines.

    Getting a PhD is not supposed to be an exercise in personal fulfillment. It is an investment in a career. I was fortunate to have an advisor who recognized the fact that "PhD" was academese for "union card," and this is the ONLY way I made it to the end of the process and graduated.

    But at some point you have to recognize that the increment is simply not worth the excrement, and I do not blame people for making the rational calculation that they may have reached that point. That point is reached when you have professors who assume that you are there solely to absorb your subject, that you are in essence not a human being but an informational sponge to be soaked in knowledge, that your mind is supposed to have a life but no other part of you is allowed to do so. That point is also reached when you realize that you are actually hurting your long-term economic prospects and - more importantly - those of your children by staying in and graduating.

    The ability to pontificate about the "life of the mind" as an old-fashioned idea so sadly out of place in this degenerate world we live in now (tm) is a luxury enjoyed by people who already have their careers and need not be concerned about those who don't. No wonder the attrition rate is so high, with such people so over-represented in running these programs.

  • PhD=choice not career
  • Posted by LM on April 15, 2009 at 11:45pm EDT
  • I do not advise anyone to go into a PhD program unless they like work and have absolutely no expectations. I teach undergrads and when the good ones come to me, I do not try to seduce them into the life of the College/University professor...it's work, it can be a lot less than fun, but it has its good points (among which are your own schedule during the summer). On the other hand, we all live so long now, that if you want to study something in depth, meet some really interesting folks, and debate the meaning of life-- or something else-- for another 7 years while eating very little, it can be worth it. You can always do something else afterward!

  • The Life of the Mind vs. a Lifetime of Debt
  • Posted by Doctoral candidate at Big State University on April 15, 2009 at 11:45pm EDT
  • I am in the same position as "doctoral student at Big State U." I also work as a full-time staff member at my University, and have learned that the system is not set up to support those who take this route in order to support a family (as a single mother, I am guessing this state of things is also considered a "personal problem.") TA and GRA compensation packages are laughable, and there is an implicit bias against administrative workers by faculty who hold these elitist attitudes about privileging "the life of the mind." These folks generally come from wealthy families and don't have to worry about lifelong student debt, or how it may limit future opportunities...

    The one other point that I'd like to raise, that seemed to be missing from this article, is regarding power issues in faculty/student relationships. Faculty hold an incredible amount of power over students. Faculty networks in any given field are tight, and they all know each other, or know of each other. Regardless of the hiring process for Ph.D.'s (the hoops one may have to jump through) many a career rests on the quality of an advisor's recommendation. Students who can afford to be fully dedicated to their studies, who have the financial support (and the time) to attend academic  conferences, and who help further their advisor's research agenda, tend to do very well. Students who can't or don't follow this path may find that they are sidelined early on, and may eventually drop out.

    I do think if faculty are rewarded for supervising student dissertations, they should also be penalized, or rewarded, as the case may be, for their department's attrition rate!

  • Getting past ABD
  • Posted by TheaB , Associate Professor of English on April 15, 2009 at 11:45pm EDT
  • I teach a summer writing workshop at an R-1 land grant university for dissertation writers across the curriculum. These are students who have completed most of their research but are having difficulty with writing the dissertation. What I hear from them supports the results of the study. I have particular concerns about a sometimes hostile environment for women graduate students in the sciences. The students who enroll in the course are not terrible writers, but many have been told that they are hopeless by their advisors. Yet the students are determined to finish. The completion rate for these students is high, with most defending within a year of taking the course. When I first proposed offering the course, I was shocked by the number of hostile comments from graduate faculty such as, “No one helped me with writing my dissertation. No one should help them, either.” I wonder how many students leave because of problems with writing the dissertation.

  • Endurance is the name of the game!
  • Posted by WAM , Chair, Div. of Accountancy, CIS, & Finance at Delta State University on April 16, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • Interesting comments! I saw myself in many of them. Like some of the concerns expressed, as an accountant, I refused to give up my life and income to obtain a Ph.D. After searching for a fully accredited program, I found an "executive-styled" program at the Unversity of Southern Mississippi which allowed me to remain a full-time employee and become a full-time doctoral student. The program was so successful, there are now two such programs at USM (the Ph.D. in International Development and the Ph.D. in Human Capital Development). Yes, it was quite difficult; yes, university politics was a bother; yes, there were times when I felt I was somewhat insane; yes, there were many sacrifices I had to make; and, yes, it took a toll on me and my family. However, after six years from start to finish, it paid off and I finally completed my program of study and graduated in 2007. It can be done! Endurance is the name of the game!

  • Doctoral degree programs and minorities
  • Posted by H. Richard Dozier, Ph.D. , Vice President/Dean of Student Development at Corning Community College on April 16, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • I am a Hampton University graduate and I also earned a doctorate degree. The educational foundation I received at Hampton and the support from the faculty certainly influenced me to pursue a Ph.D. However, prior to earning the doctorate I was involved in a doctorate program at two well respected Carnegie I level universities. At one institution it was the politics and the ego of the faculty. In my first class during the initial class, Statistics, to this day I remember the instructor say while holding a membership card in his hand, “this is a union card and all of you want to belong to this union, but not all of you are going to get in.” He was referring the Ph.D. as a union. In another class the instructor made it known he wrote the book (unfortunately he could not teach). Needless to say, after a year I decided that was not the school for me. Due to injuries received in an auto accident I was forced to leave the second program. Here again despite my maintaining a 3.8 average, politics, faculty attitudes and egos presented a barrier. I finally found the fit for me. My advisor and dissertation chair were extremely helpful, encouraging and most of all demanding.

  • Mismatched Incentives
  • Posted by Noman , Assistant Professor at University of Wisconsin System on April 16, 2009 at 1:30pm EDT
  • As someone who has now switched roles from graduate student (coming from one of those programs with high attrition rates) to faculty member, the potentially problematic incentive system embedded in higher education with regard to graduate education is crystal-clear to me. We need graduate students to TA our courses and be research assistants for our projects. This need, along with others, certainly drives admissions decisions. Yet faculty get relatively little credit for producing students that graduate, in spite of the rhetoric (and I speak, obviously, for my own institution here). Whether mentoring graduate students "counts" for promotion (at any level) in any significant way is not clear to me. It is very clear to me that working with graduate students and giving them the kind of time it takes for them to make progress is very time-consuming, often with little professional reward (although I do find it personally rewarding). What I do get credit for is producing research in peer-reviewed journals. In some cases working with students helps this process, in some cases it certainly hinders it. Given the overwhelming work load faced by many faculty and increasing tenure pressures at many institutions, it makes perfect sense to me that outcomes for graduate students are very mixed. I think expectations about research greatly outweigh expectations for other aspects of the mission in many institutions, and faculty who are trying to survive, or even thrive, in this career, respond rationally to time pressures and institutional incentives already in place by limiting their mentoring of graduate students.

  • Posted by Soon-to-finish-Phd , Anthropology on April 16, 2009 at 4:45pm EDT
  • I think some of the other factors leading to drop-out is insufficient health care (not just health insurance, but callous attitudes of doctors and careless diagnostic procedures) at the university. Also, support for international graduate students in programs in the social sciences and humanities is extremely lacking. This makes it quite difficult to complete the PhD program because you have very little and unstable financial support from the department. Immigration laws dont allow you to work outside the university campus and inside the university campus you can work only for 20 hrs per week at minimum wage. This does not even cover your rent, let alone tuition and other expenses. And if you are faced with bouts of serious illness, as I was, the combination of these factors makes it impossible to continue in the PhD program. Thankfully, I have been able to overcome these hurdles thanks to the support extended to me by my husband. But I think the system itself definitely worked against me.

  • Why is "attrition" even a problem?
  • Posted by Lugo on April 16, 2009 at 4:45pm EDT
  • Is it not still true that PhD programs generate many more PhDs than there are jobs for them (especially in the humanities)? If so, why is attrition regarded as a problem? It should be regarded as a plus, especially by the people who stick with it and thus have less competition when others drop out.

    If graduate programs admitted people to PhD programs in numbers commensurate with the number of available jobs (i.e. small numbers), then attrition would not even be an issue (because presumably only the most motivated would apply and be accepted). But no, PhD programs generally accept people in large numbers, knowing full well that most of them won't get jobs. Why? $$$$, of course. If a student attends for a couple of years and then drops out, the department is still a winner from a financial standpoint.

  • Comfortable indifference
  • Posted by MJ on April 16, 2009 at 4:45pm EDT
  • Any program that graduates 17.6 percent of its admitted students is in serious need of investigation by its sponsoring institution.

  • Posted by R on April 20, 2009 at 4:30am EDT
  • I was struck that this article was laden with the words "blame" and "fault." Yes, attrition is a problem, but "who's fault is it?" is not really the right question. The right approach is to look at ways to improve the situation. Many of the suggestions posters have offered are good: more careful screening for admissions, better funding and mentoring of fewer students are good places to start. Ultimately, though, it takes an incredible discipline, drive, and focus to complete a dissertation in the humanities. We accept students on the basis of the writing and thinking ability they show in their application materials. What's much harder to assess in the applicant pool is whether the student has a temperament that is suited to successful completion of a program and a career in academe.

    Finishing much harder than any student can realize at the outset of a program; we owe to applicants to tell them this from the beginning, but even so, they won't really understand how hard it is until they are actually doing it. It's not surprising that many students decide that the dissertation and the academic career isn't for them. As long as the student and faculty have given it their best shot and been honest with one another, neither is at fault.

  • We need to look deeper?
  • Posted by Jimmy Longun , Doctoral Student/ Materials Science & Engineering at University of Cincinnati on April 20, 2009 at 9:15pm EDT
  • I am currently completing my Masters and would like to go one better, i.e, I plan on climbing the so called mountain Himalayas of academe--the Ph.D program. I have been in graduate school school for a short time and I assure you, graduate school is no stroll in the park. I breezed through undergraduate without even knowing where the library study rooms were, partying most weekends, watching sports, you name it--but in graduate school my lifestyle has changed so dramatically that I sometimes chuckle by the mere thought of it. Staying in the library until late is the order of the day....studying during the weekends including Friday nights is the rule and no longer the exception as it used to be in undergrad. Even so, I have the funny feeling that I am not putting in enough hours. Ladies and gettlement...I am now forced to accept the title " nerd" with dignity and certainly without taking anything to heart. It takes resilient, good mental strength, creativity....you name it to pull it off. First and foremost when you step foot on campus as a grad student...as some had already mentioned, forget life, atleast for the time being. In grad school you are respected by how hard you work not by how much you make others laugh.

    Now about this Ph.D attrition debate, well, based on the experiece I have gained so far, I think we need to look deeper. This tendency to have someone as a scapegoat is either a farfetched attempt to hide behind the gates of blame or simply a modus operandi for those who simply couldn't cope with the system that is graduate school. Whether or not you finish, I believe, is a combination of many factors....and at the heart of the pile are poor advising, lack of initiative and motivation from students ( and hence the blame game), failure to steer clear of department politics and financial limitations.

    Whether the adviser has any contribution in the students misery and hence failure to finish is putting the cart before the horse, I think. Grad school is extremely stressful and most students will hate their advisors anyway... they find confort in friends by yapping the night away about how bad their adviser is and whatnot....this leads to less work being done and hence more blame....and then more hatred of the adviser for not being understanding enough. This negative perception will in one or another be felt by the advisor leading to a vicious cycle of hatred from the student and ambivalence from the adviser. The adviser has nothing to lose--and unless the student repairs this frailing relationship, he/she is toast. I have seen this with my eyes, believe me.

    My answer is--attributin rates by themselves mean nothing until we explore the small dynamical factors which despite seemingly appearing trivial compared to say money matters...but are as potent and detrimental to doctoral students as any hurdle can be. Graduate school is a system that is set that way, those who can not jump from one burning hoop to another and still remaing sane will certainly not finish and those are the ones who come out even more confused than they have ever been.

  • Not friendly to women indeed...
  • Posted by Displaced , Dr. at Two jobs - no life on April 21, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • As a woman who completed a PhD in the humanities (against all odds), it is an understatement to say that faculty are indifferent to attrition. Early in my graduate studies, an established prof offered the following adivce: "Getting pregnant in grad school is a death sentence for the PhD." It turns out this woman was correct. The numbers of women who lost committee members, or were not considered serious students, because they were pregnant was too numerous to count. In ABD writing groups, online message boards, etc. the stories recounting this particular phenonmenon are everywhere. A recent study circa 2005 notes that 85% of women who have PhDs have no children. This is significant.

    Given the parade of horror stories, I heeded the advice and had my son after finishing the PhD. Now I find that those women who sacrificed family for career do not want to hire/promote moms to full-time tenure track jobs either. Bottom line: women should think twice about PhDs that will relgate them to the adjunct mommy-track.


  • Unfriendly to women indeed
  • Posted by Displaced , Dr. at Mommy-tracked adjunct on April 21, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • As a woman who completed a PhD in the humanities (against all odds), it is an understatement to say that faculty are indifferent to attrition. Early in my graduate studies, an established prof offered the following adivce: "Getting pregnant in grad school is a death sentence for the PhD." It turns out this woman was correct. The numbers of women who lost committee members, or were not considered serious students, because they were pregnant was too numerous to count. In ABD writing groups, online message boards, etc. the stories recounting this particular phenonmenon are everywhere. A recent study circa 2005 notes that 85% of women who have PhDs have no children. This is significant.

    Given the parade of horror stories, I heeded the advice and had my son after finishing the PhD. Now I find that those women who sacrificed family for career do not want to hire/promote moms to full-time tenure track jobs either. Bottom line: women should think twice about PhDs that will relegate them to the adjunct mommy-track.