Search News


Browse Archives

News

The Future of Student Loans

May 22, 2009

Share This Story

FREE Daily News Alerts

Advertisement

WASHINGTON -- How Thursday's House of Representatives hearing on the future of the federal student loan programs looked to a particular observer probably comes down to where he or she falls on the cynicism continuum. Taking the session at face value, you'd be inclined to walk away fairly impressed by the genuine multiplicity of viewpoints expressed and the stated willingness of the Democrats running the House Education and Labor Committee to consider various possible approaches to reshaping the loan programs.

Then again, if you've watched a decade and a half of battling between the political parties over the federal government's two loan programs and have watched House Democrats largely cater to the wishes of President Obama so far, you'd probably harbor serious doubts about Thursday's promises that the committee's Democratic leaders will thoroughly consider alternatives to the administration's plan to end the lender-based guaranteed loan program and use the savings to ensure a permanent and growing source of Pell Grant funds.

Rep. George Miller, the California Democrat who heads the education committee and whose views loom large over it, made clear in his statements Thursday that major change is coming to the loan programs, one way or the other, because the financial markets have forever altered the economics of student lending. "The administration has given us a proposal for where they want to go," a proposal, he said, that "sets the bar high" by promising tens of billions of dollars in savings that could be used to make college more affordable for students from low-income families.

"There has been a suggestion that this is all a 'done deal,' " Miller said, in a nod to the more cynical. "There is agreement that there is a serious cost to the way this program has been run, but what we do about that is an open question for members of this committee."

Almost as an afterthought, Miller added: "Of course, I haven't gotten in the habit of telling President Obama no yet...."

And that's no small thing, given that the student loan proposal, and its ancillary promise of as much as $94 billion in savings, has soared to the top of the higher education agenda of the new president, along with Education Secretary Arne Duncan. The administration has trumpeted at every turn the possibility of achieving the financial aid officers' holy grail of a Pell Grant entitlement (which the Education Department is now calling an "appropriated entitlement"), a major expansion of the Perkins Loan Program, and the creation of a $500 million a year fund to encourage college completion -- all with the money generated by essentially shifting all federal student lending out of the bank-based FFEL program and entirely into the competing Direct Student Loan program. (The administration's proposal would allow lenders to compete for the right to service loans, and envisions some role, financed through states, for guarantee agencies and other lenders that help students avert defaults and provide other support to students and colleges.)

While the prospect of generating boatloads of new funds is the administration's primary tool for enticing support for its proposal, its officials argue that it is necessary, too, to ensure the continued availability of loan funds to students, given the seizing of the credit markets that required emergency government action last year. Administration officials note that because of that action, many loans being made through the lender-based program now are, in fact, financed with government funds.

And Education Department leaders repeatedly describe the guaranteed loan program as being "on life support," which strikes some loan industry officials as hypocritical since the White House boasts in many other settings that its efforts to shore up the financial industry have been hugely successful.

Democratic leaders in Congress have cautiously backed the administration's plan thus far, giving the Congressional education committees until October to craft legislation to reform the loan programs that could be considered on a "fast track" through the budget reconciliation process. But in a nod to supporters of the bank-based loan program, the compromise budget blueprint also included a resolution praising the role of lenders and guarantee agencies and requiring that "any reform of the federal student loan programs ... include some future role for the currently involved private and non-profit entities."

Thursday's hearing, which aides to the House Education and Labor Committee said might be the panel's only formal, public discussion this year of possible changes in the federal student loan and financial aid systems, sent conflicting signals about how locked in the panel is to the Obama proposal, in everything from its choice of language to its witness list. The committee's Web page about the hearing said it would examine "proposals that will make historic increases in college aid by enacting reforms that will make the nation’s federal student loan programs more reliable, effective and efficient for students, families and taxpayers" -- no conditional tense there.

Photo: House Education and Labor Committee

Robert Shireman

To the committee's credit, the witness list for the hearing was balanced between supporters of the administration's proposal (including the Education Department's Robert Shireman, who is the architect of the loan proposal, Chancellor Charles Reed of California State University, and Anna M. Griswold of Pennsylvania State University, which abandoned the FFEL program for the direct loan program last year amid the credit crunch) and student loan providers and guarantors, including representatives of Sallie Mae, New Hampshire Higher Education Assistance Foundation, and the Access Group. (Presumably it was an oversight that John F. Remondi, the vice chairman and chief financial officer of Sallie Mae, was left off the printed list of witnesses distributed to reporters at the hearing.)

Those who attended the meeting expecting the sort of histrionics that has long attended Congressional discussions about the two student loan programs would generally have been disappointed, at least by the witnesses (one or two lawmakers on each side of the aisle, including Reps. Mark Souder (R-Ind.) and Rob Andrews (D-N.J.), played their traditional roles of sharp-elbowed partisans).

All of the loan industry types, to some extent, accepted the idea that, as Miller put it, "there needs to be fundamental change" in the loan programs, and that business as usual in the guaranteed loan program would not stand. "There's sometimes a characterization that you're saying, 'No, we want to go back to where we are,' " Miller said in an almost coaching manner to Sallie Mae's Remondi. "But that's not what you're saying."

"That's right," Remondi said. He said that a proposed alternative that Sallie Mae has been circulating would "build from the foundation of the president's proposal" and "make that proposal even better," by using government funds for all loans (capitalizing on the federal treasury's ability to borrow money cheaply) but leaving a role for lenders to originate and service loans (on a "fee for service" basis), building in the sort of choice and

Photo: House Education and Labor Committee

John F. Remondi of Sallie Mae

competition that many financial aid experts see as strengths of the current two-program system.

"We are not trying to preserve lender subsidies, nor are we trying to preserve the FFEL program as we know it," Remondi said.

The idea that lenders recognize that the current bank-based system is unsustainable, and that there were a range of options for remaking the loan programs to incorporate elements of the two existing programs into a single, better one loan system, was echoed by Christopher Chapman, president and chief executive officer of the Access Group, a nonprofit lender mostly to graduate students. "There aren't two choices here -- it's not a choice of 100 percent direct lending or the status quo," he said. "We encourage the committee to look at [the options] closely, and retain the option that ensures that choice of competition, flexibility and freedom of service remain in the program."

To the extent that members of Congress remain open to considering alternatives to the Obama administration's proposal, the major question going forward is whether any of the other options will save enough money to approach the benefits of the Obama plan.

If they would -- and a spokeswoman for Miller confirmed that the House panel is awaiting a Congressional Budget Office analysis of the Sallie Mae proposal -- it is possible that senators and House members will be interested enough in protecting the roles of state loan agencies and attracted enough to the continued competition and choice to break with the administration.

See all postings »
Advertisement
Advertisement

Matching Jobs

Comments on The Future of Student Loans

  • Student Loan Borrower's Nightmare
  • Posted by Terradea on May 22, 2009 at 8:15am EDT
  • I borrowed $140,000 to go to law school. I didn't pass the bar. Then I couldn't find a job. Even though I didn't default, my debt still ballooned to $185,000 over a four-year period.

    I finally found a job after 2 years, but my salary is less than $30,000 per year. My minimum payments total more than my take home pay.

    I asked for reasonable payments based on my income. The private lenders said NO, pay up. The government lenders would only put me on forbearance, but that has run out. Now they say NO.

    I pay what I can, but I will eventually go into default.

    When I go into default, the lenders get to add 25% to my loans as a penalty (that's nearly $35,000! No wonder they won't work with me).

    I have nowhere to turn for help. Student loan borrowers have NO consumer protections. I think student loans, as they are, are a terrible idea and urge all potential students "Do Not Borrow for College." You have no idea what the future holds, and the lenders are taking a big gamble on you, but are gambling with YOUR future. The lenders have nothing to lose because the government guarantees they get paid no matter what. We consumers are the ones who lose. I have no future. If you borrow for college, you may not either.

  • New student loan system
  • Posted by feudi , FAO on May 22, 2009 at 8:45am EDT
  • It's all over but the shouting. This article summarizes where we stand now and what the future looks like. The banks know the gravy train is over. By proposing a "fee for service" arrangement, they are acknowledging that fact and are trying to preserve some sort of revenue stream from the new loan system, however it is funded at the top. My best guess is that the only funding source will be federal tax dollars allocated to those banks and state agencies who, in turn, get service contracts from the Department of Education. This is not a wise move from the taxpayers perspective as it will place 100% of the risk of default squarely on the American taxpayer - a prescription for yet another financial meltdown ala FANNIE and FREDDIE. The other long term issue is that the banks will not be much interested in funding future loans anyway since the interest rates plummet to 3.4% by 2011. I know they are scheduled to jump back to 6.8% in 2012, but I believe Congress will adjust that schedule as part of this process. In the end, it sounds like we'll be left with a Direct Loan program fully funded by the taxpayers but operated by the banks and state agencies in conjunction with schools and the financial aid community. It is hard to see how this system will save $94 billion dollars, but we'll know by 2011if it works as advertised. Overall, a plus for students, but a real danger for the public unless the new program has far more oversight and accountability built into it at every level from the schools financial aid office through the financial system designed to manage the program to the students who, hopefully, pay back their loans in a timely fashion to fund future loans. We'll see what rolls out of DC while we pray for common sense.

  • Loan default prevention
  • Posted by feudi , FAO on May 22, 2009 at 9:15am EDT
  • I am truly saddened when I hear stories like Terredea's. I've been doing financial aid for fifteen years now and I still do not understand how some schools can certify loans and lenders can fund such massive loans as the $140,000 it took to get Terredea through law school. Why didn't somebody, at some point, inform this student of just how much debt he or she was racking up and what the future held in the event that they did not pass the bar exam. If they did inform Terredea of these dangers, why didn't he or she listen? The bottom line is that unless this person at some point passes the bar exam, then they truly are financially ruined for the rest of their lives. Hopefully, whatever new system we come up with will prevent such tragedies in the future.

  • I agree with Terradea!
  • Posted by R.F. , FAO on May 22, 2009 at 9:15am EDT
  • Whether private, government or quasi-governmental, whoever ends up with the loan program needs to be told to do something for the CURRENT borrowers.

    I believe that all of the consumer protections that debtors of all sorts enjoy should be reinstated for student borrowers.

    I may have missed it, but I would love for NASFAA to come out in support of such a proposal.

    Bank, mortgage, stock and auto executives walk away untouched from the mess that they have made. Due to their exorbitant compensation they can live without a job for years without fearing loss of their houses or cars.

    The companies they left behind (those that still exist that is) can get bailouts, emergency loans, tax incentives, etc.

    Current borrowers get nothing!!!

    Lets talk justice now. Student borrowers are like the guy who just has been carjacked at gunpoint and has been shot, is bleeding on the curb watching the gunmen drive away with the police, AAA and Roadside Assistance all going after the car to make sure nothing happens to it.

    Interesting development for Terradea, the penalties and interest that the lenders will assess you ($35,000) are more than you will make for the year. They must have mistaken you for one of those executives.

  • Posted by Student Advocate on May 22, 2009 at 9:15am EDT
  • Terradea (first commenter): please identify what prevented you from going into income-contingent repayment through Direct Loan consolidation, or why that would not work for you.  Perhaps Congress needs to work on that, along with other needed consumer protection reforms.

  • Posted by Cato on May 22, 2009 at 9:45am EDT
  • The fundamental problem is that the cost of attending college and/or graduate school -- especially professional schools -- has risen so dramatically over the past 20-30 years, and the amount of debt that students take on has risen commensurately (or even at a greater rate, since the money students can earn from part time or summer work has not increased nearly as much as costs have increased and since there was a shift over the past 30 years from scholarship aid to loan aid) to the point that the debt loads cannot be carried without very high paying professional jobs -- which most of the debtors never obtain. And, of course, these debts are not avoidable in bankruptcy.

    The problem could be solved by making the debt avoidable -- essentially putting the cost on either the government (i.e. the taxpayers) if the loans are guaranteed or on the lenders if they are not. Lenders without guarantees who experience high default rates would naturally cease lending or lend only at high rates or on security (such as the students' parents' property. That solution will only result in the only lender being the government, hence, the taxpayers. Are taxpayers, especially the taxpayers who do not go to college, willing to subsidize college for everyone who does? I think the answer is probably no.

    A related solution would be some sort of government subsidy for all students, courtesy of the taxpayers. Given the vast amounts already provided in subsidies in the form of state colleges and universities, I suspect this would be politically unacceptable. Perhaps if things were scaled back (see below), taxpayers might be willing to make state colleges and universities closer to free for state residents (but perhaps not), but the out of state students would pay much more, reducing general mobility in college choice. I suspect also the taxpayers would not be willing to subsidize attendance at private college and universities AT ALL if the student has a state college choice.

    The problem could also be solved by bringing the cost of a college education down to a price closer to what it was (in relative terms) in 1960 or so. This would mean a dramatic change in the services, amenities, and courses offered (look at a 1960s catalog to see what was and was not offered), a dramatic reduction in (relative) faculty salaries and size, and an absolutely massive reduction in the size of college administrations. Even then, changes in techonology might make this solution impossible. But, even if it were possible, it's probably unacceptable to the people who would see their salaries reduced, positions eliminated, and whole departments and areas of study axes wholesale. Most parents (who think course offerings are too full of fluff as it is, and that many departments could well be eliminated) would probably be OK with this if everyone did it. But, it won't happen.

    Then, of course, the problem could also be solved by eliminating all loan subsidies and dramatically limiting the number of college students to those who can pay or who can get scholarship rather than loan money. Politically, this is probably not feasible either.

    Hence, we muddle along without real reform because, while effective (that is market clearing) solutions are available, none of them are politically feasible.

    I am just very glad my children were able to obtain their undergraduate degrees without any debt.

  • Personal Responsibility
  • Posted by Lawyer and Parent on May 22, 2009 at 11:15am EDT
  • I want to empathize with Terradea, but I just don't understand how someone is willing to take on $140,000 in debt to go to anything but an upper top tier (i.e. T20) or state flagship law school. I know the schools make it seem easy to borrow, but, really! At any law school other than those T20 and state flagships, only the very top of the class has any kind of a shot at a job that will enable you to pay that debt. And, at those law school, you can be very sure the students with a realistic shot at doing that well (and passing the bar) even at a lower tier law school will not be borrowing that much, because they are the ones the school has (usually heavily) subsidized to attend in order to boost their prestige and rankings.

    This is not rocket science; I've been explaining this to prospective law students since the early 1980s: TTT (third tier toilet) X will offer a student Q who has good grades and LSAT scores, but applied to TTT X as a safety, something close to a full scholarship. Q accepts because the first tier (but not T15) law school T1b that also accepted her did not offer her any money. Q is clever and figures out that at T1b, she will be in the bottom 20% of the class in terms of LSAT scores, and hence is likely to end up in the bottom half of the class, or lower, with limited job prospects; whereas at TTT X, she will be among the very brightest students, and stands a good chance of making Law Review and the top 10 (1%), and hence of getting a good job. So Q takes the offer from TTT X. Terradea, meanwhile, whose scores are average or below for TTT X (a reasonable assumption if she has not passed the bar) has to compete with Q and gets left in the dust, ends up with huge debt, and no job prospects. While Q gets the good job and has little or no law school debt. Life is not fair. Q would have been better advised not to go to law school at all. In fact, I have always told prospective law students that if they can't break into the top 5% (10% if they're looking at a state flagship other than California, Michigan, Virginia or Texas) of the LSAT, they should not incur ANY debt for law school and should probably not invest in law school at all. Harsh advice, and not what a lot of kids want to hear, but sound advice.

    R.F. then writes:

    Lets talk justice now. Student borrowers are like the guy who just has been carjacked at gunpoint and has been shot, is bleeding on the curb watching the gunmen drive away with the police, AAA and Roadside Assistance all going after the car to make sure nothing happens to it.

    What's justice? Carjacking? Who held a gun to the student borrower's head and said you must take this loan? It is a choice, people. A choice about where you go to school and whether you go to school at all. If you made a bad investment decision, why is that someone else's fault? Why should someone else pay for your mistake? Unless you argue there was fraud in the lending process, why should it be the lender's problem? Why should it be the taxpayers' problem if you took on a large debt to go to a private school you couldn't otherwise afford rather than go the available community college (and live at home for 2 years)/state subsidized college route which the taxpayers already subsidize?

  • Posted by Lawyer and Parent on May 22, 2009 at 2:00pm EDT
  • Mistake: should read Terradea would have been better advised not to go to law school... rather than Q would have been better advised not to go to law school....

  • Posted by Booklover on May 22, 2009 at 2:15pm EDT
  • I would like to see some type of monitoring to make sure students are using their loan money for educational expenses. I'm tired of hearing that they used their money for a vacation to Disneyland or a trip to the casino.

  • Perspective
  • Posted by R.F. on May 22, 2009 at 3:00pm EDT
  • Lawyer and parent exhibits the arrogance of those folks who don't understand that they are a breath away from facing the same outrageous and overzelous treatment because they actually believe that it is their superior judgement which makes them invulnerable.

    Mistaken decision??? Well one persons mistaken decision is someone elses cautionary tale. It is not a mistake for someone to want to be a lawyer or any other type of professional...or to want to further one's education...or to go to law school...or to borrow student loans...maybe naive, but not a mistake!

    Was it a mistake that Terradea did not see the economic meltdown? Well neither did Lawyer and Parent! In fact, most people did not see it coming?

    The mistake was in not understanding the incredibly offensive system set up to penalize those who find themselves unable to pay.

    If it were to happen to you Lawyer and Parent, you would not be able to pay either, but then your superior decision making skills seem to be what is insulating you from the fallout the rest of us have to deal with on a daily basis. If only everyone were as prudent and mistake free as you.

    But if you were to make a mistake (obviously a fantasy)...it would still be a mistake to penalize you in the same way.

    No the gun was not held to his head in taking the loan...just in collecting it. Except the rest of us don't get the "gun" on any of our debt. Only students are so unusually criminal that they deserve this treatment.

  • and monitored by who?
  • Posted by DS on May 22, 2009 at 3:15pm EDT
  • Booklover, first of all, what evidence do you have that students spend their loan money on casinos and trips to Disneyland (and spring break in Cancun, while you're at it)? You're "hearing" this, but do the books you love so much teach you to believe everything you hear?

    And then how do you propose that some pocket change police, presumably college employees, monitor how they spend their money? Let's follow the cash flow first of all. All student loan proceeds show up in the Bursar's Office, not in the student's hand. The Bursar's Office takes from those proceeds what the student owes the school. If that creates a credit balance, the student is entitled to a refund. This typically goes to pay for textbooks, rent, food, transportation to the college, child care and other such frivolous expenses these spoiled brats shower themselves with. Are you assuming that colleges have staffing sufficient to peruse all student loan recipients' credit card receipts or something? Please...

  • Idiocy is not a perspective....
  • Posted by Lawyer and Parent on May 22, 2009 at 7:15pm EDT
  • Terradea's mistake was not in failing to see the economic meltdown, it was in borrowing a massive amount of debt, that by its terms was not dischargeable in bankruptcy, and which had onerous terms. And, did that knowing full well Terradea did not have the kind of academic credentials to get into the kind of a law school (and do well enough in it) that Terradea would have a reasonable chance at earning the kind of money necessary to pay the massive debt in accordance with its terms. The information about the funky law job market and the massive disparities in the job opportunities depending on where you go to law school, and how well you do there, has been around for a very long time. Anyone with the slightest bit of curiousity and an internet connection, or even a public library, could easily have figured this all out.

    It's true that if I had the debt Terrdea did, I would be as vulnerable as Terradea. But, R.F., I chose not to borrow excessively to attend college or law school - I went to a state T10 law school, had an academic scholarship, the G.I. Bill from military service, and worked full time all three years. Fortunately, I did well enough to have choices in employment.

    I have advised every perspective law student I have encountered over the past 30 odd years not to incur significant debts, and to be brutally realistic about (1) what law schools they might get into based on their grades and LSAT scores, (2) how well they might reasonbly expect to do in that law school -- only 10% of the class can be in the top 10% after all, and (3) what their reasonable job prospects are if they graduate for that law school roughly commensurately with their LSAT score compared to the LSAT scores of the rest of the students in their class. This is basic.

    Similarly, I have chosen to buy a house for far less than I could "afford" with a very substantial down payment and very limited mortgage debt, at a fixed rate, and why I drive my cars for 10 years or more.

    I agree that there is a big problem with the fees and collection practices with student loan debt --they suck in a word. That's the main reason I so strongly advise students to avoid it, even if it means going to community college and the local state college. Unfortunately, there are reasons for those practices -- before the debts were nondischargeable, the default rates were more than 20% and lenders were not interested in taking those risks except at exhorbinent rates. And Congress was not willing to have the taxpayers eat the loss.

    The problem is that there are no good solutions that don't involve expecting someone else to pay for your education -- except going to the most heaviliy subsidized and lowest cost community and state colleges you can or only to a private school that provides a low enough net cost of attending that you can afford because of scholarship grants (and not loans).

  • Good Article!
  • Posted by Aaron Schindler , Principal at Schindler Trading on May 23, 2009 at 3:45pm EDT
  • Thank you for a well written and informative article, Doug Lederman. I will keep an eye out for your byline in the future. This topic is of interest to me on four levels: as a tax payer, a voter, a parent, and a Sallie Mae bondholder.

    If you have an email distribution list for your articles, please add me.

  • Arrogance and Luck is not a perspective either...
  • Posted by R.F. on May 26, 2009 at 8:45am EDT
  • "The problem is that there are no good solutions that don't involve expecting someone else to pay for your education -- except going to the most heaviliy subsidized and lowest cost community and state colleges you can or only to a private school that provides a low enough net cost of attending that you can afford because of scholarship grants (and not loans)."

    Lawyer ans parent, forgetting for a second that the paragraph above is a huge non sequiter ..."expecting someone else to pay...except going to a...heavily SUBSIDIZED college" I don't know what country you have been living in for the past 30 years but EVERYONE goes to college on someone elses dime. It is the point of taxes for federal aid programs, budgets set by legislatures for public schools, scholarships, endowments, etc.

    Even the person who paid out of pocket to attend a private college got help from someone else somewhere along the line. Even the fact that a private college is exempt from making a federal tax payment is a subsidy.

    If you do not understand the social and civic web that surrounds everything every one of us does...then no wonder you are so arrogant.

    There was no reason to expect that Terradea would not have landed one of those cushy executive jobs with one of those mortage, auto , bank or stock companies,,,and WOULD have been able to pay the money borrowed. Many just like Terradea have done it and are doing it...AND did not follow you surefire path to economic righteousness...and did not attend one of the colleges you mentioned. It is a fact that many lawyers are hired for such positions that did not attend one of your top ten schools. You miss the point because Terradea IS NOT the issue. I know because as an FAO with 24 years of experience I know such individuals. Your advice won't save your students who did nothing wrong and still got bounced by the economy. But it sure sounds like a rational action plan. You can wrap your students in a warm feeling of confidence if they just follow your plan. And it will still fail, but you keep believing that since it seems to make you feel better. Just don't try to convince the rest of us that it is guarantee against anything.

    And yes there can be something done about the collection practices and law as it currently exists. Pass new laws that don't allow these companies to turn a $140,000 debt into $175,000 by adding such usurious fees. These collection companies are not entitled to turn a college and law school grad into an indentured serf who must work his entire life to pay them off with nothing left for himself.
    It was not the point of the loan in the first place...good decision or bad.

  • Empathy?
  • Posted by Ex-Loan Huckster on May 26, 2009 at 12:15pm EDT
  • When you hear Terradea's story on it's own, away from the context of thousands of her peers that have a different story, yes, it is hard not to empathize with her. But then, if you weigh her plight against others, like myself who considered attending law school but then did not because I cannot afford to pay out of pocket, and it is not worth going into debt for, then I feel much less for her since she made a greedy choice that thousands of her peers did not make. If Terradea is in her 30's, comme moi, then she had roughly two million fellow 18 year olds that graduated from high school and then made choices about their futures. Thousands did not attend college at all, thousands more entered low-paying vocational programs and the military or other apprenticeships. Then a large chunk of her peers went to 4-year schools and started working, likely 400,000 to 500,000 out of her peer group. Of that half million, a very small number (less than 40,000) attended law school, most at public institutions and most with the foundation (i.e. post-sec curriculum and grades) to insure a reasonable likelihood of success. Terradea is among probably only hundreds of her peers that wasn't satisfied with a bachelor's degree, but did not prepare well for law studies, made a bad choice in her institution and then, from the sounds of it, might not have studied very diligently during law school. More than two million of her peers made wise choices with their post-high school endeavors and did not end up with the debt burden she has. But she, and maybe a thousand others made greedy choices to go after high-paying law careers, were not successful, and somehow this is now the fault of congress, lenders, schools and other people. But curiously Terradea doesn't hold any culpability?

    This type of case has been the poster child of FDLP forces and Robert Shireman for a dozen years, and while these cases probably were instrumental in helping to dismantle the FFELP, they will continue to occur under an all-FDLP situation. And these cases cannot be solved by changing repayment and bankruptcy terms on student loans. They must be changed at the educational planning and decision-making stages by students them selves, with input from parents, counselors and school admissions people. Terradea's case could only have been resolved at the promissory note/rights & responsibilities stage - not well into repayment.

  • PS
  • Posted by Ex-Loan Huckster on May 26, 2009 at 12:15pm EDT
  • "Pass new laws that don't allow these companies to turn a $140,000 debt into $175,000 by adding such usurious fees"

     

    R.F. - are you willing to accept a change in underwriting criteria on the FDLP or FFELP that prevents someone without adequate credit & income sources from borrowing $140,000 for school in the first place?

  • Empathy two.
  • Posted by R.F. , FAO on May 26, 2009 at 5:45pm EDT
  • Ex Loan Huckster, you argument is rife with unsupported assumptions, generalizations, poor logic and value judgements.

    You ascribe Terradea's motivation for borrowing the money as "Greedy". but you were not there and don't have any evidence of what motivated her.

    Further, your "statistical analysis" is full of hot air. "Terradea was in a small cohort of people for whom a bachelors degree was not enough???" What??? So now anyone with a degree beyond a bachelors is greedy???

    You missed the point. It was not her choice of degree or major that caused the problem.

    In addition whether she was a poor student or unprepared...again where is your supporting evidence. You impute from the results, but do so in a way which is absurd. Einstein worked in a patent office making very little money, but if he had borrowed the same loan he might have a hard time paying it back as well. Abusive ad hominem. Look it up.

    As far as "am I prepared to have tighter credit for students"...in a word....YES!!! In fact, if it had been tighter all along, Terradea and many others might not be in so much debt now. It is not the worst thing in the world to be turned down for a private student loan. In fact, it might make other students reevaluate their "Greedy" aspirations.

  • Posted by Ex-Loan Huckster on May 26, 2009 at 8:30pm EDT
  • R.F. - your posts here and elsewhere are teeming with sanctimony. Compared to me, and hundreds of thousands of people like me, Terradea was greedy. We thousands of poor BA and BS holders may have aspired to an advanced degree of some type, but we recognized the cost barriers and did not pursue those advanced degrees. Instead we took jobs in the private, or public sector, and worked our way up corporate ladder, all the while paying off whatever student loan debt we had incurred. Then some (as posted numerous times) either worked their way through a post-Bac degree, or were fortunate enough to have tuition reimbursement, but THEY DID NOT INCUR INSUPPORTABLE DEBT TO DO IT!! I don't know whether greed is the appropriate term, or impatience (Terradea's inability to squelch her need for instant gratification) or a sense of entitlement which we often see in Alan Collinge's minions or what, but Terradea put herself in that position, just like I chose to not put myself in that position. As for stats being used, blogs are not scientific research papers, so no, I am not going to research and cite exact statistics, just like many, including the editors and writers employed by IHE seldom fact check. What I do know is through the 80's and early 90's rough two million students graduated each year from high school in this country and that number increased to a high of roughly 2.6 million this decade. Nationwide college attendance is roughly 60% and so even an idiot BA like me can run the math and see that while Alan Collinge has 2,000 cases like Terradea's in his arsenal, there are literally tens of millions of others that made the system work for them.

  • Sanctimony or Principled position
  • Posted by R.F. on May 27, 2009 at 10:30am EDT
  • Huckster, I may be sanctimonious, but as long as you insist on characterizing these student borrowers as greedy, stupid and lazy...YOU have missed the boat and added nothing to the discussion.

  • Posted by Ex-Loan Huckster on May 27, 2009 at 11:00am EDT
  • Au contraire, what I, along with others like CommonSense, Cato, etc. have added to the discussion is perspective. IHE, and NewAmerica portray cases such as Terradea's as typical experiences for U.S. students, when in reality these are small exceptions dwarfed by millions of mainly positive experiences. Fortunately I have the last laugh, because other than a mortgage I remain debt-free, and I also have helped a number of nieces, cousins and friends' children avoid stepping into it like Terradea did. And like me, the majority of people who lived within their means will reject the call to "bail out" indebted students that will never have to relinquish their educational credentials. I support any changes to the law that prohibit illogical borrowing for education (or any purpose) and perhaps that will force many institutions out of business.

  • Downward Bar Exam Retaker Spiral
  • Posted by Mary Campbell Gallagher , President at BarWrite® and BarWrite Press on May 27, 2009 at 6:30pm EDT
  • I have been preparing candidates for the bar exam for 20 years. Candidates can fail the bar once for a variety of reasons, but bar exam retakers with student loan debt are in bad situation. They cannot get new student loans. In order to have a chance of passing the bar exam at the next or subsequent sittings, therefore, these retakers must somehow do the impossible, find or keep a job, earn money, take time off for intensive study, study for the next exam, pay for bar-preparation courses, and start repaying the usually massive student loans they already have. Too often, they fail again and again.

  • Response to Lawyer and Parent
  • Posted by lawsucks on May 28, 2009 at 5:15am EDT
  • This is the same sort of blame the victim response I see a lot from people who made it in life. They look down on everyone else who hit a wall and simply cannot dig themself out. Basically, if you fell for the law school scam, you're a worthless person and deserve to suffer for the rest of your life. That is what his argument boils down to.

    I'm in the same situation as Terreada. Failed the bar three times in California. 120K debt. And guess what? If someone offered me the chance to wipe that scarlett letter otherwise known as a JD off my resume and never practice law I would leap at the opportunity.

    Look, I'm not saying that I shouldn't have to pay something. But on a 40k salary (which btw is what starting salaries for attorneys are going for in many places) I pay half my net income to student loans, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

    Hey Lawyer and parent, care to tell this board how much you made last year and what your debt obligations are?

  • student loan
  • Posted by Ryan on June 6, 2009 at 4:15pm EDT
  • I think the government should not be in the buisness of student loans.There should be pell grants to cover the entire cost of a four year college or trade school. If you mess up the pell grant then loans could be an option. What is wrong with investing in a skilled and educated work force. However, you will then notice the ruling class upset by this with the line that well we had to pay for our education why shoulddn't everyone. I also think that those say that student loans are a choice. Is a very uninformed way of thinking. If everyone decided not to take out loans for school then there would be no trained work force and you would have people that woud rely on government for social services and other monies. An educated workforce reduces the amount of dependence on the government and in the end taxpayers. I think they should forgive all student loans now and start giving pell grants to cover full cost of education. America needs to get it togehter and start caring about it's people.

  • Where Were the Student Witnesses?
  • Posted by Cheryl Cotterill on June 22, 2009 at 8:30pm EDT
  • The witnesses testifying before the House Education Committee on Student Loan Reform included the CFO Sallie Mae. But where was the student's seat? The students are the real witnesses--NOT Sallie Mae. The students witness first hand what happens when a private lender's desire for profits overrides the integrity of government loans.

    The whole goal behind providing government loans for college is to provide students with an education so that this Country can benefit from the minds and aspirations of its citizenry. That goal has been seriously derailed by the goals of private lenders, which is simply to make money.

    The Department of Education must act wisely to prevent the honorable goals of our government from being superceded by the goals of private lenders because when it comes to education we cannot afford to replace a future full of opportunity with one full of dishonorable profits.

  • Posted by bubbaRay on August 19, 2009 at 5:15am EDT
  • should one go to law school? maybe..... but they should realize what they are getting into. there are 6 to 8 top tier law schools in the nation. get on law review you might get a supreme court clerkship. no matter what if you graduate from one of these schools you will be offered a big law job starting at $160,000 a year. lets not talk billable hours, the actual hours you will work once getting one of these big law jobs will be 80+ weekly. should one go $140,000 into debt to go to a true tier 1? YES!

    how about if you are not able to attend a true tier one university and have to attend a top tier university or a tier 2 or even a tier 3? well you will not recieve an offer from big law unless you are tops in your class and on law review..... how do you get to the top of your class? STUDY! how do you get on law review? test in or GRADE IN (STUDY) hmmmmm,.,,,,,,, so all of this studying takes how much time? from personal expierience 1L 65-70 hours of out of class studying weekly. 20 hours weekly doing law review, 2L is less study more review, 3L dont slack off like most everyone else, be the best....... if you are willing to do this then you might have a chance of getting a big law job. if not? get an mba after all bankers earn more money anyway.

    oh and as for failing the bar........ummmmmm..... well.........., different bars are more difficult than others for shure. many schools offer TA positions for people in your situation where you can retake classes as needed. there are also private prep courses. also have you tried getting a job in mediation? i have a good buddy who became a mediator while studying to retake bar. it paid about the same as 1-3 att