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Rights for Some People

July 8, 2009

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Should someone who teaches human rights back human rights for all people?

That's the question being raised by some students at New York University's law school, who are upset that a visiting professor in the fall semester, slated to teach human rights law, is Thio Li-ann of the National University of Singapore, an outspoken opponent of gay rights. Thio has argued repeatedly and graphically that her country should continue to criminalize gay sexual acts.

In a speech to lawmakers in Singapore, Thio said that gay sex is "contrary to biological design and immoral," argued that gay people can change their sexual orientation, said that anal sex is "like shoving a straw up your nose to drink," and rejected arguments based on a diversity of sexual orientations by saying that "diversity is not license for perversity." (The text of her talk is here, and YouTube video is available in three parts -- here and here and here.)

NYU OUTLaw, a group of gay and lesbian students at the law school, last week sent an e-mail message to all students drawing attention to Thio's statements, saying that it was crucial to "raise awareness of anti-gay statements made by an NYU visiting professor" because "it is important for LGBT students and allies to be aware of her views in order to make fully informed decisions regarding class registration."

The letter does not call for the invitation to Thio to be rescinded. Ethan Park, co-chair of the group, said that the organization wanted to gather reactions before deciding what it was going to ask NYU to do, and that discussions were taking place electronically as students are scattered for summer internships.

"One of the options would be to take a strong position and demand that the law school rescind the appointment, but others say that this could be an opportunity to teach about why we have somebody at the law school who promotes hatred," he said. Park said that the group has been receiving many strong reactions from students and alumni. He said there is widespread anger over Thio's appointment, but a range of views about what to do now.

In an e-mail interview, Thio said that those who are attacking her are engaged in political correctness.

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion, free conscience, free thought -- that is a cardinal principle for every academic community. I hold to it, in my own law school, and I would expect the NYU law community to do so as well. We can be united in commitment to this principle, without slavishly bowing to a demanded uniformity or dogma of political correctness set by elite diktat. I cannot say I am impressed by this ugly brand of politicking which I hope is not endemic," she wrote.

Thio added that she "was encouraged when the president of an NYU student organization committed to free debate wrote to welcome me and to point out that the negative, prejudicial and frankly, hostile views expressed are not representative of everyone in the student body. While I am disappointed at the intolerant animosity directed at me by strangers who do not know me and have decided to act on their own prejudices, forged from whatever sources, I am nonetheless glad that there are still some at NYU, who uphold a commitment to academic freedom and who entertain dissent with respect. As a recent NYU graduate, a Muslim friend of mine said, one must have courage in the face of bullying."

On the substance of her views on gay rights, she argued in the e-mail that plenty of Americans may agree with her, and those who don't have no right to impose their values on other countries.

She wrote: "Do some Americans by appropriating the rhetoric of human rights assume they can impose their views on another sovereign state? Is there a human right to sodomy? Is this a core right or a contested one? There are countervailing views that this is the wrong way to characterize the issue -- so do students who dislike this view refuse to engage with dissenting views? Or seek to censor views they disagree with? That's hubris. I think certain Americans have to realize the fact that there are a diversity of views on the subject and it is not a settled matter; there is no universal norm and it is nothing short of moral imperialism to suggest there is. Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no consensus on this even within the U.S. Supreme Court and American society at large, even post Lawrence v. Texas." (The court case is the 2003 Supreme Court ruling that barred states from criminalizing consenting sexual acts between adults of the same sex.)

Thio will be teaching at NYU under a program that brings legal scholars from all over the world to the campus as visiting professors. John Beckman, an NYU spokesman, said that faculty panels review and select candidates based on "a record of excellent scholarship and fine teaching." He added: "Professor Thio was selected on the basis of her published academic scholarship, not on the basis of the statement she made to the Singapore Parliament as a member of that body. We believe that she will make a valuable contribution to our global classroom and to the intellectual life of the law school when she is here this fall."

Beckman also noted that the law school at NYU "has a long record of opposing discrimination based on sexual orientation, and we are well known for being a supportive home for an activist lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community. Many in our faculty, staff, and student body will be in sharp disagreement with Professor Thio on the content of her speech, and we expect there will be a dynamic exchange on these issues."

Cary Nelson, national president of the American Association of University Professors, said that he would not advise NYU to rescind the invitation to Thio to teach there. But he said that it would be legitimate to raise questions about whether she should be teaching human rights.

"Academic freedom protects you from retaliation for your extramural remarks, but it does not protect you from being prohibited from teaching in an area where you are not professionally competent, and there are doubts on whether she has the competency in human rights," Nelson said. He said that there is in fact an "international consensus, save a few countries like Iran" that gay people should not be treated as criminals.

Nelson also said that in a tenure decision, he would judge a candidate -- however offensive his or her views on unrelated subjects -- only on a question of whether the person's scholarship and teaching in his or her discipline met appropriate standards. But in a hiring decision (whether for a visiting or permanent position), he said, it is appropriate to consider other factors, and the reality is that it's impossible to know what professors are really thinking when they vote one way or another.

Professors can appropriately ask prior to appointments, he said, whether hiring someone whose views on certain subjects are "poisonous" could limit "the department's ability to do its business."

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Comments on Rights for Some People

  • Posted by jd on July 8, 2009 at 7:15am EDT
  • It is one thing to question the nature of "rights" in general or to a specific behavior; it is quite another (especially for a professor of law) to direct incendiary and insulting rhetoric at any particular group of people. In American legal history, to take one example, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. had no truck with socialists, but he upheld their right to free speech; furthermore, he was deeply skeptical of the very idea of inherent rights, but he understood the danger of marginalizing minorities and insisted on giving them as much as possible access to democratic institutions so that they might effect change. Prof. Theo Lam-an appears, from the report above, to be ideologically unsuited to teach law in an American university.

  • Bigotry is Poor Scholarship
  • Posted by Diogenes on July 8, 2009 at 7:15am EDT
  • Of course Thio Li- ann's "argument" was taken apart shortly after her speech in 2007. Her pool of false statements and fear mongering slogans sound more like the rhetoric of Sun Myung Moon rather than the rhetoric of American X-ian fundamentalists (although Moon has funded so much of the U.S anti-gay activity that there is a certain resonance). You can take a look at the 2007 rebuttal here:

    http://singaporepeasants.blogspot.com/2007/10/nmp-thio-li-ann-and-her-intellectually.html

    The problem with hiring her for this sensitive position is that she does not develop her argument from facts and authoritative sources, but from stereotypes, false information, history twisting distortions, and bigotry. This public front shows a serious flaw in her academic abilities.

    That alone should disqualify her from teaching on human rights. Its like hiring an author of an anti-semitic children's book to work in a Hebrew day school! Sure she's entitled to her opinion. But her very public articulation of it betrays academic incompetence.

  • Posted on July 8, 2009 at 9:15am EDT
  • cf. Churchill, infra.

  • Closed Minds at NYU
  • Posted by Albertus Magnus on July 8, 2009 at 9:45am EDT
  • I wonder at Cary Nelson's feeble response when asked about Prof. Thio's academic freedom. Would this uninformed English professor think it "incompetent" for a teacher of law to defend Bowers v. Hardwick and criticize Lawrence v. Texas? Would he regard it as improper for a secular university to hire a teacher of religious studies who defended the Catholic church's position that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered? If NYU's poor put-upon law students want to learn something about how to think about human rights, they should crowd into Prof. Thio's class and engage her in a civil debate about just what "rights" are and where they come from.

  • Assumed consensus
  • Posted by Gary Fitsimmons , Director of Library Services at Bryan College on July 8, 2009 at 11:45am EDT
  • There is an assumption of consensus in higher education today (explicitly embodied in this article) on this and many other issues, whereby those of the differing viewpoint can be labeled negatively and it is considered acceptable. True, bigotry is poor scholarship. But so is name calling. Bigotry is defined as intolerant prejudice, and I see that coming from both sides of this issue. There are no “facts” from research to refute Thio Li-ann’s opinion either. There is no real consensus on this issue and pretending that there is just so you can label those of a differing viewpoint as incompetent is not being honest with yourself.

  • So Gary...
  • Posted by Diogenes on July 8, 2009 at 12:30pm EDT
  • ..you feel the same way when some right wing white supremacist says blacks are mentally inferior or some sexist insists that women are proven to be over emotional and then cites as evidence every long disproved stereotype and a series of false analogies? It that your answer there as well or are you just applying this fine standard to gay rights?

    This women clearly cited a series of falsehoods any intelligent person were clearly see as devoid of fact. A "differing view point" is just fine. Hate, venom and clear bigotry is not. Especially in such a sensitive position. Gay rights are human rights too.

  • Time to Talk
  • Posted by j3cruz on July 8, 2009 at 12:45pm EDT
  • I am a defender of human rights. I believe in tolerance and open discussion of differences. I a m also a defender of academic freedom and free speech. Although I strongly disagree with Professor Thio's analysis and conclusions about the morality of homosexuality, I believe she is posing a necessary challenge to the LGBT community. This is an opportunity for defenders of LGBT rights (me included) to sharpen our swords. The more we debate in academic settings, the stroger our position gets. We do have to pick our battles, but I think this is one worth fighting. Besides, let's not repeat the censurship that has been imposed on the LGBT community for countless decades. Let's focus on the concept of "freedom for all" and have our debates.

  • human rights for all people
  • Posted by GR , Business Development on July 8, 2009 at 1:15pm EDT
  • Our modern definition of human rights has no moral grounding. These comments fall short. You want to defend the rights of some while limiting the rights of others. Is Prof. Theo ideologically unsuited, uninformed, incompetent, or a bigot? The problem is by what moral standard do you judge Prof. Theo? Human rights for all- defend polygamy, bestiality, pedophiles, and so forth; do not defend human right for some and not for others (of course based on your definition of human rights). It is so sad when you see a man and his love for his dog be judged by bigots you and me.

  • An Open Letter to Dr. Thio Li-Ann
  • Posted by Jim McCurley , Class of 2010 at NYU Law on July 8, 2009 at 2:15pm EDT
  • I read your recent e-mail interview with Inside Higher Ed with some interest. It seems that you may be a little concerned about what awaits you at NYU this fall. As a gay person and a law student, I wanted to take the opportunity to reassure you and to welcome you to the university. I’m not sure if you’ve been to New York before, but I gather from your CV that you got a quite a fine education in the UK. Because of a few phrases you used in the interview, it occurred to me that you may not be familiar with some peculiarities of American English and I want to point out a few that may come in handy. First, we call chips “french fries” and crisps “chips.” Second, we generally call Members of Parliament “elites” and law students, well, “law students.” We don’t really use the word “diktat” a whole lot.

    New York being New York, you may also find a few Yiddish words to be useful. Foremost among these is “chutzpah.” “Chutzpah” is hard to translate directly and its meaning is perhaps best illustrated by example. New Yorkers would say that a former NMP and graduate of Cambridge and Oxford who denounces gays in a rather vulgar manner on the floor of Parliament in a successful bid to enable their imprisonment calling the highlighting of her remarks by a few law students “ugly politicking” based on “their own prejudices, from whatever sources” has a lot of chutzpah.

    Now, having grown up in a farming village in Kentucky and spent a number of years in the enlisted ranks of the Army, I share your distaste for both “ugly politicking” and “elite diktat.” As I’ve been called a “faggot” and been beaten up a few times, I don’t care much for “bullying” either, although I’m not sure having one of one’s own Parliamentary speeches circulated really qualifies as such. This may be yet another peculiarity of American English.

    You are quite correct, however, that in the face of bullying, one must have courage. It also helps to have supportive gay friends. One of the nice things about gay folks is that we tend not to belong to either the “liberal camp” or “communitarian camp” which you described in your speech. We’re just into camp. Likewise, the gays at NYU don’t by any means have a problem with you, your right to your views, or academic freedom. We just don’t think that state power to imprison or discriminate against sexual, racial, or other minorities is a particularly “academic” question. Again, that’s American English for you.

    Another generally appreciated feature of the gays is our sense of taste, which has been highlighted in television shows like “Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.” You are a bit mistaken if you think that the gays at NYU want to censor you. It’s just that, like mixing polka dots with plaid or having George Wallace teach a course on civil rights in the American South, we tend to think NYU’s hiring you to teach a class called “Human Rights in Asia” demonstrates a lack of taste.

    Dr. Thio, if you’ll have me, I’d like to be your supportive gay friend. We can have lunch, dish about men and listen to music together. I know a great tapas place in Greenwich Village and, as an American, I’d like to disabuse you of the notion that I have any interest in “refus[ing] to engage with dissenting views” or directing “intolerant animosity” at you. There are also a few great American songs I’d love to introduce you to. One of my favorites is called “Cry Me a River.” It was written by Arthur Hamilton.

    I must make one friendly request before I let you go, however. We American gays are doing fairly well post-Lawrence v. Texas. Unlike our Singaporean brethren, we can’t be arbitrarily thrown into prison and can generally defend ourselves under the law. Unfortunately, the same can’t be said for our friends, the straw men. From “human right to sodomy” to “Americans … appropriating the rhetoric of human rights … [to] impose their views on a sovereign state,” you’ve spent a good deal of time knocking them down. Last I checked, they hadn’t done anything to you, so why not go a bit easier on them?

    All the best,

    Jim McCurley

    NYU Law Class of 2010

  • Thank God for the invitation to converse
  • Posted by DFS on July 8, 2009 at 5:00pm EDT
  • And I thank commenters for not physically attacking him.

    Of course, if he was within your reach, would you have done so, or awarded bonus points to your students for having done so?

    Diogenes appears to have a rather large bone to pick with him, for example. (Sorry -- couldn't resist.)

    But, it's refreshing to have actual replies to his beliefs, rather than physical assaults.

    At least, then, he didn't get billed for security. So much for the rest of resisted 'free thought' in academia.

  • Bigotry is no Substitute for Scholarship
  • Posted by Ned , Psychology (2009) at Graduate School of Arts and Sciences on July 8, 2009 at 5:00pm EDT
  • As a Pakistani student and a gay woman who has just completed a Master's degree in Psychology (Class of 2009) from the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences at NYU, I would just like to say that I will be very disappointed if NYU does not reprimand Dr. Thio Li-ann for her bigoted language, at the very least. As a student of Psychology who took courses on gender and sexuality NYU, I am really quite amazed that Dr. Li-ann thinks that she can get away with airing absurd views like this without any social science data to back them up. Show us the data, Dr. Li-ann!

    By all means, allow Dr. Li-ann to teach at NYU, but please engage her in debate and make it clear to her that the views she has expressed cannot be sustained in the light of reason and scientific research. Human right to sodomy? There is a human right to be able to engage in private consensual sexual acts without interference from other people, let alone from the state! There are many sex acts that I personally find distasteful myself, and would never engage in, but that does NOT mean I would condemn others for engaging in them, and far be it for me to want people to be prosecuted for them! An aesthetic objection is NOT the same thing as a moral objection!

    I came to NYU to study psychology, but also, to get a taste of an environment that is not hostile to LGBT people. This is a luxury that I do not have as a Pakistani. For the last two years, NYU has provided this environment for me. It is disappointing to find that just as I am graduating and getting ready to go back to Pakistan, NYU has hired someone with views like this. Back home in South Asia, just recently, our neighbor India, a very conservative and religious country, has de-criminalized homosexuality on the grounds of justice and fairness. No doubt other Asian countries will be sure to follow. NYU must stand strongly with LGBT people of the world and make it clear that as an institution it will not support discrimination (what to speak of criminalization!).

    Let Dr. Li-ann teach, but let her know that NYU's faculty and students will not tolerate bigoted remarks that lack all semblance of nuance and scholarship. If she wants her views to be taken seriously, she will have to express herself with a lot more sensitivity that what seems to have been the case so far.

  • Read Foucault's "The History of Sexuality", Please
  • Posted by Ned , Psychology (2009) at Graduate School of Arts and Sciences on July 8, 2009 at 5:15pm EDT
  • I also wanted to quickly respond to something Dr. Li-ann said in one of her talks:

    "To slouch back to Sodom is to return to the Bad Old Days in ancient Greece or even China where sex was utterly wild and unrestrained, and homosexuality was considered superior to man-women relations. Women’s groups should note that where homosexuality was celebrated, women were relegated to low social roles; when homosexuality was idealized in Greece, women were objects not partners, who ran homes and bore babies. Back then, whether a man had sex with another man, woman or child was a matter of indifference, like one’s eating preferences. The only relevant category was penetrator and penetrated; sex was not seen as interactive intimacy, but a doing of something to someone. How degrading."

    Straw-man, Dr. Li-ann. An undergraduate would be able to knock this down in their sleep. Haven't you read Foucault's "The History of Sexuality"? The whole point Foucault is making is that sexuality is socially constructed. The modern LGBT rights movement has very little to do with Greco-Roman pederasty (or similar constructions of sexuality in Persia or China). Yes, in the past sexuality was constructed to serve the free adult male, with younger men, girls, boys, women, slaves, etc., all being fair game. But what on earth does this have to do with modern and postmodern LGBT identities, tied as they are to feminism, political leftism, environmentalism, vegetarianism, labour movements, and social egalitarianism? Absolutely NOTHING.

    Since the above warning is ostensibly for the ladies, let me tell you as a gay woman that female homosexuality has liberated women from the strictures of hetero-patriarchy for centuries. It is still serving this function in my own society, the very patriarchal and misogynistic Pakistan. It certainly has done this for my long-term Pakistani partner and myself. I highly recommend that Dr. Li-Ann reads a book called "Surpassing the Love of Men: Romantic Friendship and Love Between Women from the Renaissance to the Present" by Lilian Faderman on this subject.

  • Qualifications to teach ethics
  • Posted by A Prof on July 8, 2009 at 5:30pm EDT
  • If Peter Singer can teach bioethics at Princeton even though he supports infanticide, there should be no problem in this case.

  • Homophobia is a Legacy of Colonialism
  • Posted by Ned , Psychology (2009) at Graduate Schools of Arts and Sciences on July 8, 2009 at 6:45pm EDT
  • I'm sorry I'm commenting so much, but the more I think about this issue, the more I feel that a voice like mine needs to be heard, especially since I'm leaving America in a few weeks and won't be able to participate if NYU holds a debate on this topic (which is, I think, the proper way to proceed now that Dr. Li-ann has been appointed). I am a gay Pakistani woman who believes that heterosexism in South Asia is a legacy of Christian colonialism. South Asian culture has recognized a "third sex" for centuries. I also feel this is true for many other parts of the world, including America, whose Native American spiritual traditions were quite clearly friendly toward queer identities. See for instance the report "This Alien Legacy: The Origins of 'Sodomy Laws' a Legacy of British Colonialism" published by Human Rights Watch:http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/12/17/alien-legacy-0
    For me personally, the major source of disagreement with Dr. Li-ann's views is not that she thinks homosexuality is wrong. I have several conservative Christian friends who believe this and we are able to set aside our differences and have a chat over a cup of coffee. I have even enjoyed reading some critiques of homosexual culture that I quite agreed with, for instance by the conservative moral philosopher Roger Scruton. I personally have always intensely disliked some of the aspects of the early radical gay liberation movement in the West and within South Asia I'm a strong proponent of the idea that we do not repeat the mistakes made by that sort of hedonistic, commodified, materialistic culture. The issue for me is simply that Dr. Li-ann wants homosexuality criminalized in the same way that pedophilia is, which basically means that she wants a minority community to be legally persecuted by the law. It just seems like an indefensible position to me, morally and rationally. I doubt it will sit down well with most Americans, even conservative ones.
    Regarding the comment by A Prof about Peter Singer, I think this point is a good reason why Dr. Li-ann ought to be allowed to continue to teach at NYU, while encouraging debate and discussion (I personally am not a Peter Singer fan either, for that matter). However, the analogy is not all that accurate. Peter Singer does not have the backing of an entire movement that wants to legalize infanticide (I would venture to guess that the vast majority of the political left would be horrified by the idea), while the views of someone like Dr. Li-ann would be embraced with open arms by the Christian Right in America or the fascist RSS thugs in India (who are already preparing a backlash to the decriminalization of homosexuality in India, which may well include violence). One lone Peter Singer cannot be compared to entire homophobic campaigns like this. There is a reason why some of us are responding to Dr. Li-ann's appointment ... these are things that influence how we are treated in Asia on a very practical level. Violence is something we *do* have to worry about.
    Having said this, I do believe we ought to respond to these kinds of views with the tools of the intellect and culture, and not with political maneuvering. However, given that Dr. Li-ann is probably going to teach LGBT students at NYU, she may want to nuance her language and stop equating us with Greco-Roman, Chinese or Persian pederasts. ;-) It's really too bad I'm leaving America in a few weeks, or I would have loved to meet Dr. Li-ann and debate her.

  • violates non-discrimination policies
  • Posted by Hunter on July 8, 2009 at 6:45pm EDT
  • Would NYU *seriously* hire a professor to teach human rights law who argues strenuously that blacks were racially inferior and not to have equal rights. Thio-li-Ann violates the non-dicrimination plicies of the university through her views and her activities in furtherance of those views.
    NYU should rescind the appointment, pronto.

  • Freedom of Speech
  • Posted by Darwin on July 8, 2009 at 9:00pm EDT
  • Academic freedom is about having the right to defend your views regardless of whether those views are "politically correct". Gays and Lesbians have the right to argue for their rights the same as other people have the right to argue for moral values and the rights of the traditional family. There is no consensus on this topic. Example: Millions of Catholics do not agree with gay marriage. Therefore the professor should be allowed to teach the course for which she was academimcally deemed fit to teach without any interference. Attacks on conservative professors are just a form of reverse discrimination.

  • Seriously
  • Posted by GR on July 8, 2009 at 9:00pm EDT
  • Would you higher an evolutionist to teach science? Would you higher a creationist/intelligent design to teach science? Would you higher a Marxist to teach American history? By what standard do you define discrimination and where do you stop?... at Polygamy, bestiality, a loving relationship between a man and a consenting little boy???

  • So Much for Multiculturalism
  • Posted by frankly speaking on July 8, 2009 at 9:00pm EDT
  • I regret to say it, but she has a point about the "Cultural Imperialism." American intellectuals regularly tout that we must listen and be willing to learn from other cultures. "There is no one way to do life," they say. I've listened to these same folks over the years with pride note that there are no moral absolutes. It's all gray. But just disagree with one of their moral absolutes and look out. There's no intolerance like the academy upholding its predilictions and preferences under the guise of scientific and philosophical certainty.

  • A Singaporean gay man's view
  • Posted by Asperger on July 8, 2009 at 9:45pm EDT
  • I am Singaporean. I am gay. Hence, as you can imagine, the appointment of Thio by NYU is of great interest to me.

     

    In reading Thio’s email responses, I am struck by the depth of hypocrisy she exhibits, accusing others of doing the very same that things that she engages in with such gusto and graphic details. Listed below are some of the thoughts that struck me while reading the points in Thio’s email.

     

    "Everyone is entitled to their opinion, free conscience, free thought”

    So, why then did she so vehemently demand for legislation against the entitlement of others to do so?

     

    “ -- that is a cardinal principle for every academic community.”

    Or is this only allowed for academia? I surmise from this that her belief in freedom does not apply outside of the “academic community”?

     

    “I hold to it, in my own law school, and I would expect the NYU law community to do so as well.”

    Isn’t expecting others to do what is done in her “own law school” contravening her call for Americans not to impose their values on her?

     

    “We can be united in commitment to this principle, without slavishly bowing to a demanded uniformity or dogma of political correctness set by elite diktat.”

    The irony --- and hypocrisy --- of this statement is bewildering, in the light of her parliamentary speech, when she called on the government to disallow gay rights; surely a prime example of “elite diktat”?

     

    “I cannot say I am impressed by this ugly brand of politicking which I hope is not endemic"

    But, Ms Thio, your “ugly brand of politicking” IS “endemic” in Singapore’s legislature, as seen in your recent actions.

     

    “While I am disappointed at the intolerant animosity”

    What then do you call her diatribe directed at us?

     

    “directed at me by strangers who do not know me”

    Neither does she know me or my partner of 11 years. Or what I do in my job and its impact on others as well as how I have to keep an essential part of my being (my sexuality) under wraps or I will lose my job, as a government employee.

     

    “and have decided to act on their own prejudices, forged from whatever sources”

    Would Ms Thio like to clarify how much of her own views are forged from her own religious backgrounds, which most Singaporeans do not share?

     

    “I am nonetheless glad that there are still some at NYU, who uphold a commitment to academic freedom and who entertain dissent with respect.”

    Ms Thio, where is the “academic freedom” and “entertain(ing) of dissent with respect” in all these actions?

     

    “As a recent NYU graduate, a Muslim friend of mine said, one must have courage in the face of bullying."

    The citation of having “a Muslim friend” is just a feeble attempt to solicit sympathy from a foreign audience by stressing on her inclusiveness of people who are ‘different’. The fact that you have to cite your friend’s religion suggests what she sees in gathering her friends. In Singapore, 15% of the population is Muslim. We live, work, interact, love, marry them at all levels, in all social contexts; and, to most of us, it does not matter whether our friends are Muslims or not.

     

    . . . those who don't have no right to impose their values on other countries. "Do some Americans by appropriating the rhetoric of human rights assume they can impose their views on another sovereign state?”

    No, Ms Thio, it is YOU and YOUR views they have a problem with. No one is making it a US-Singapore issue; YOU are.

     

    “who dislike this view refuse to engage with dissenting views? Or seek to censor views they disagree with? That's hubris.”

    Does this woman have no sense of irony, AT ALL?

     

    “I think certain Americans have to realize the fact that there are a diversity of views on the subject and it is not a settled matter; there is no universal norm”

    So why did she campaign the government to DECIDE for gays and BAN gay sex?

     

    “and it is nothing short of moral imperialism to suggest there is.”

    This is low, even from someone whom I have come to expect no less. When all else fails in an academic or moral argument, play the colonialism card of “white people as evil colonisers and imperialists exploiting us poor indigent natives”.

     

    Personally, I do not have an issue with NYU hiring Thio per se; I am sure she has resounding academic credentials. However, to hire her to speak on “Human Rights in Asia” is such a slap in the face for those of us in Asia fighting for our basic human right --- the right to love.

     

    What next, NYU? Khameini to speak on women’s rights? Than Shwe to speak on responsible governance and political freedom? Kim to speak on world peace?

  • People, Please Focus
  • Posted by Ned , Psychology (2009) at Graduate School of Arts and Sciences on July 9, 2009 at 5:30am EDT
  • Once again I must re-iterate that as a gay student of psychology I have absolutely ZERO issues with a professor at NYU holding the belief that homosexuality is immoral. The issue is that Dr. Li-ann wishes to criminalize homosexuality, to defend state-sponsored homophobia, state-sponsored persecution of gender and sexual minorities. If, for instance, Roger Scruton was coming to give a lecture at NYU on why he thinks homosexuality is immoral, I would have no issues with that. He does not, however, want to see the state legislating sexual morality or criminalizing specific sex acts. I don't see how Dr. Li-ann's position is defensible even by conservative standards.

    Western moral imperialism? The sodomy laws that Dr. Li-ann is defending are THEMSELVES the legacy of Western colonialism! Not just in Asia but in many other parts of the world as well. Please read this detailed report from Human Rights Watch:

    http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/12/17/alien-legacy-0

    The truth is that India has just started moving toward de-criminalizing homosexuality BECAUSE people are finally waking up to this fact.

    Moreover, I object to Dr. Li-ann's inflammatory language. I am familiar with far more balanced and nuanced critiques of homosexuality that I have in all honesty enjoyed reading and been challenged by. I enjoy debates on homosexuality provided they are complex and subtle. Dr. Li-ann's views are neither complex nor subtle. In fact they are simplistic to the point of being laughable. For her, homosexuality = anal sex, and anal sex = criminal act. These are the views of a legal scholar coming to NYU to teach about human rights!

    To re-iterate, I am fine with Dr. Li-ann teaching at NYU. But let her face the music. Let her know that NYU's scholars will not be treating her support of state-sponsored persecution of gender and sexual minorities (because that is what the sodomy laws are, for us Asian queers, in practice) with complacency. Let the NYU community acknowledge that these sodomy laws put us queers in Asia and developing countries at risk physically and emotionally. They are used to harass us. They are used to justify violence against us. They even put our families at risk.

    I will get over the appointment of Dr. Li-ann. But if NYU's scholars and faculty do not offer an appropriate response to a faculty member who holds positions like these -- positions that are not only simplistic but also dangerous, quite frankly (and I speak as an Asian queer whose person and life is endangered by the sodomy laws that Dr. Li-ann defends so vociferously) -- I will be far more incensed.

  • Posted by Jonathan Dresner on July 9, 2009 at 5:30am EDT
  • I think Mr. McCurley's response was extraordinarily well-done.

    Ultimately, human rights is a global field with substantial divergences and diversities, and it should be productive to have the views of a non-Western expert: any NYU students who go into human rights work are going to be dealing with similar perspectives on a regular basis anyway.

  • Engage her
  • Posted by Muchado on July 9, 2009 at 5:30am EDT
  • Hi guys,

    I think it would be most interesting for students to engage her on the topic of homosexuals and their rights, and see how this would be consistent with her teachings on human rights.

    This would definitely be exciting discourse, which we would of course appreciate if you students can post for our reading pleasure.

    MuchAdo

  • to Muchado
  • Posted by Denise on July 9, 2009 at 9:00am EDT
  • An exciting discourse indeed! We've witnessed such scenerios before. It usually begins with weeping and knashing of teeth, hurling insults, eventually moving onto a wonderous display of objects flung at the offending individual, and ends with said individual being escorted out of the room for fear of bodily harm.

  • "Weeping and Gnashing of Teeth"
  • Posted by Ned , Psychology (2009) at Graduate School of Arts and Sciences on July 9, 2009 at 9:30am EDT
  • Dear Denise,

    I apologize if standing up for my right to exist without being threatened with imprisonment, police harassment, violence and "corrective rape" strikes you as the "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Perhaps when the Civil Rights movement was going on in America, you would have said the same for Martin Luther King and his followers.

    By the way, have you got a single counter-argument to any comment that I have made above?

    A professor is going to be defending antiquated laws that are directly opposed to the values of secular, pluralistic democracies, by both conservative AND liberal standards, while teaching a course on human rights. It will be a travesty if NYU's faculty and students do not respond with the full force of recognized scholarship on this issue. The truth is that Dr. Li-ann will be *crushed* if there is any debate organized on this topic -- easily. Her arguments and analyses are simplistic, dangerous, and frankly, embarrassingly ignorant. However many degrees or published papers she may have, the subject of homosexuality is obviously a blind spot for her. You will be hard-pressed to find even the most committed conservative in America supporting sodomy laws or state legislation of sexual morality. To be consistent you would also have to support the criminalization of other private sex acts as well, like adultery (and go back to biblical times, while you're at it).

  • Another Factoid about Thio
  • Posted by Monkeysee on July 9, 2009 at 10:45am EDT
  • I particularly feel that she is most unqualified to talk about human rights. The main reason for this belief of mine is based on her choice of causes to champion as a member of parliament.

    Thio chose to speak out against homosexuality and insist that it remain a crime in Singapore. But more importantly, Thio chose to remain silent on the motion t to keep the law that allows for Marital Rape. In Singapore, a wife cannot claim to have been raped by her husband, even if sex occurred against her will.
    This law was proposed to be repealed in the same sitting that the law on homosexuality was. This proposal was rejected by Parliament.
    In the same session of parliament, Thio chose to launch a diatribe against homosexuality instead of focusing on repealing the abhorrent law that allows marital rape. She spent the whole of her allotted speaking time on her objections to homosexuality.
    This shows how skewed her priorities are, and disqualifies her as any proponent or expert on human rights.
    This blog entries expresses my thought way better than I do:
    http://blog.sayoni.com/2007/10/24/thioliann/

  • Is it some joke Thio will teach Human Rights? LOL!
  • Posted by Shocked_academic on July 9, 2009 at 11:45am EDT
  • Is it some joke? With her record in demonstrating just what human rights lawyers worldwide is fighting against, how can she be qualified to teach the subject? To put her together with other distinguished law professors is an insult to the later. How could someone who's unqualified to teach her subject of Human Rights be invited to teach along with these highly respected and qualified professors? The other invited professors should have written a letter to oppose her appointment. I have no objection to her teaching a subject like Constitutional Law. But Human Rights is, first of her, not her specialty and an area that she had demonstrated not to observe when she repeatedly fight against her country's removal of the discriminative law criminalizing private consensual gay sex. If she doesn't even recognize that gays, like other people, should have the right to this basic human right, what makes her qualified to teach Human Rights? I would laugh throughout if I could attend her lectures. It's the biggest joke in the academic circle.

  • More News From India
  • Posted by Ned , Psychology (2009) at Graduate School of Arts and Sciences on July 9, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • The first spate of reactions from religious leaders in India, another Asian country, to the move to repeal the sodomy laws (the same laws that are in Singapore) are coming in. Perhaps Dr. Li-ann might want to learn from them. These individuals may not be Oxford graduates, but they appear to have far more common sense than her.

    ------

    Homosexuality immoral, but not criminal: Religious leaders
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/4736152.cms

    Some clerics maintain that since Indian state is secular, it should not press for laws guided by religions. ‘‘Why should we expect that what applies in Saudi Arabia or Iran must also apply in India in regard to punishment for homosexuality? As a religious person, I condemn homosexuality. But I don’t have the right to declare homosexuals criminals,’’ said Maulana Zaheer Abbas Rizvi, a Shia scholar and member of the All India Ulema Council.

  • Dear Mr. Jim McCurley a Response to your open letter
  • Posted by Dr Li-ann Thio , Professor / Law on July 9, 2009 at 12:30pm EDT
  • Dear Mr McCurley,

    A faculty member forwarded me your Open Letter and I must say it's wittiness made me laugh out loud, especially your comment about being "camp." Touche. When I mentioned camps, I was thinking of Frankie goes to Hollywood's two tribes song and perhaps it was a little ill-advised on my part, but such are my sorry cultural referent points.

    I am a little weary of some of the sad posts from certain of my countrypeople who love to misrepresent and distort the nature of my views or the context and issue they were directed at. Always sweeping, uncompelling and with the tired litany of insults and presumptions, but then, perhaps they read religiously from Schopenhauer's Die Kunst Recht zu Behalten but fail to see the irony.

    It really is the last straw.

    Contextualisation is key, I am sure you will agree.

    I was sorry to read that you were beaten up - that is never justified; and being called "faggot" is as ugly as being called "homophobe" so perhaps we will leave the name-callers to their own devices and treat each other first and foremost as human beings with intrinsic dignity. (Is that a howl of protests I hear across the cyber-waves by the usual band of demonisers? C'est la vie.)

    I find the internet not to be conducive to genuine communication as people will say what they will say and believe what they want to believe. Pot. Kettle. Black.

    Anyway, please do come knock on my door or drop me an email and have a coffee with me when I reach your not so sunny shores (if you do caffeine, that is). I would welcome having a civilised conversation with you; you can ask me whatever questions you might have to understand where I am coming from and what my political convictions are - if you care to know the truth of things. I find face to face talks are very effective in disabusing falsehoods and clarifying misapprehension and well, heck, distortions, particularly those redolent with malicious intent.

    Thank you for the letter,

    All the very best,
    Li-ann Thio.

  • Unfortunately, I won't be here
  • Posted by Ned , Psychology (2009) at Graduate School of Arts and Sciences on July 9, 2009 at 1:00pm EDT
  • Dr. Li-ann,

    I appreciate your taking the time to comment here, though I notice you have not responded to a single point raised by myself (though I am not East or Southeast Asian, but South Asian). It is a pity that I will not be at NYU during Fall as being a Fulbright scholar I am required to return to Pakistan upon the termination of my academic program. I would have loved to accompany Jim to speak with you on your views, which I am sorry to say, are unsophisticated and not becoming of any serious scholar. I strongly believe that the NYU faculty and students will be able to intellectually deconstruct your support of sodomy laws with great ease.

    I searched for any published papers by you on why you think sodomy laws are a) consistent with human rights discourses; and b) not responsible for gross human rights abuses (such as police harassment and violence). I could not find any. If you have published anything on the subject, please link us to it.

    I will perhaps write you an open letter myself and have it forwarded to you before I leave America. Let it be known that as a grad student at NYU and aspiring psychologist myself, I find your views scientifically untenable and morally repugnant. Moreover, speaking for my own department, I simply do not know of any professor of psychology at NYU who would support many of the ideas you have expressed on homosexuality.

    Good luck with your work and teaching at NYU.

  • Intrinsic dignity? Unless you're gay, you mean!
  • Posted by Ned , Psychology (2009) at Graduate School of Arts and Sciences on July 9, 2009 at 1:00pm EDT
  • Oh, and to this comment: "treat each other first and foremost as human beings with intrinsic dignity"

    Dr. Li-ann, if you really believed this, you would not be wanting to criminalize private consensual sex acts. The very fact that you do want this criminalization in place indicates that you do not consider LGBT people to be "first and foremost as human beings with intrinsic dignity".

  • Posted by quenderin on July 9, 2009 at 1:45pm EDT
  • Here is a full transcript of what Dr. Thio actually said in parliament:

    http://singabloodypore.rsfblog.org/archive/2007/10/25/professor-thio-li-ann-s-speech-in-parliament.html

    She may be entitled to her own opinions, but most of her arguments are prejudiced, if not down right mistaken.

  • Posted by al on July 9, 2009 at 2:00pm EDT
  • Dr Thio has the right to present her view... but the audience has the right to ask hard questions as well. Exchange of views can be demonstrated, in words or in action, e.g. walking out of her talk to show disapproval of her views.

    let her talk, and let the audience responds, we are all entitled to voice our mind. Better still, upload her talks on the internet and gather worldwide views.

  • Posted by elvin on July 9, 2009 at 4:30pm EDT
  • I know this comment will never be approved. But even if at least one person reads it and hopefully tells it to someone else, it will be enough for me.

    I am a Singaporean and i am gay. And as you can imagine, Prof Thio has been such a thorn for our community setting gay rights two steps back whenever we move one step forward. I am by no means, a person of great education or intelligence so it is heartening to read the majority of comments from feisty and educated law students/practitoners sharing my opinion. When i read that Prof Thio was to embark on this endeavor, i was actually pleased.

    I implore the students - Please challenge and educate her. In other words, KICK HER ASS and debate the hell out of her. No bitching needed, just present to her raw logic. After the "straw" remark, it should be no surprise to you she is simply an uncivilized woman hiding behind big words and a silly degree. Thank you for your time. And no i do not hate her, i simply despise her words and feel great pity for her. Anyone who believes such nonsense cannot possibly lead a very happy personal life.

  • Response to Dr. Thio
  • Posted by Jack Fertig , Alumnus at San Francisco State University on July 9, 2009 at 5:15pm EDT
  • You are quoted as asking derisively if there is a human right to sodomy. What a filthy-minded and narrow look at human relations! Much more to the point -- Is there a human right to build a life with the person you love? To have your most important loving relationship treated with dignity and respect? To be able to enjoy your most intimate partnership without fear and persecution?

    Whenever we make people "less than" we expose them to violence. I am not the first person to write you with a history of being viciously assaulted by a crowd of bullies yelling homophobic epithets.

    We are not talking about a "right to sodomy," Doctor, although shoudn't devoted, committed couples in honest, loving relationships be free to make love as they wish in privacy? We are talking simply of the right to live with the same level of dignity and security that our compatriots enjoy.

  • Posted by Ariel on July 10, 2009 at 5:15am EDT
  • Dr Thio Li-Ann is certainly full of hyposcrisy. During the homosexual law debate in Singapore on October 2007, she is for the strict enforcement of the law to put males having sex into jail. At the same time, she does not oppose to male/female having oral or anal-sex . It speaks volume about her views on human rights. Just hope that New York can change her bigotry views.

  • Respect and Dignity
  • Posted by Jules , Editor at Alumnus, National University of Singapore on July 10, 2009 at 5:15am EDT
  • I agree that Dr Thio has every right to speak, in public, in her own country and anywhere else in the world. We all have that right, though some might think Singapore is not that open. I can understand NYU inviting Dr Thio to speak because "she will make a valuable contribution to our global classroom and to the intellectual life of the law school when she is here this fall".

    But voicing opinions and making public comments is different from teaching or lecturing. And a lecture is different from a teaching a whole course. Only those with the adequate and appropriate qualifications should be allowed to teach, a whole course. Surely that is a measure of how seriously NYU takes their academic value. From which aspect of her scholarship did NYU make the evaluation that Dr Thio would be qualified to teach on human rights? At which point dare she stand among her contemporaries and peers who lecture, teach, work in the field of human rights, many as activists and claim that she too believes in human rights for all people while denying that gay people are not people and therefore do not deserve respect and rights?

    I am sure that the non-discriminatory environment at NYU will provide "dynamic exchange". That is after all, what higher education aims for and I would expect that to already exist in a university like NYU. What I am concerned about is the nature and value of the exchange. Surely that is more important than ensuring there is exchange?

    Dr Thio's opinions about homosexuality are narrow, blighted and misguided, both at a professional and personal level. I fail to see how NYU anticipates she would be able to provide a higher education that would be of any value to the students. Her academic thoughts on and issues with homosexuality would merely reveal the prejudice, misunderstanding and discrimination which she holds and has used, in both her professional and personal capacities, to hinder human rights advancement in Singapore. She has publicly advocated for the continued criminalisation of homosexuality. The anti-homosexual opinions she holds are not only personal and academic, but also political.

    In April this year, the US was part of nine western countries which boycotted the UN conference on racism in which attending delegates later walked out because of anti-Semitic remarks made by the president of Iran. Why would NYU give an anti-gay activist visibility and a sustained platform? Don't they have enough soapboxes in the universities in the bible belt? What next, Ahmadinejad to speak on human rights, gender equality and conflict resolution because it would generate dynamic discussion and publicity?

  • It's not multiculturalism...please, she's just one person
  • Posted by thespia on July 10, 2009 at 2:00pm EDT
  • I'm Singapore, and I'm not gay. (Since that seems to be the format to start off the comments from Singaporeans.)

    But I am concerned that Dr. Thio's views will be seen as indicative of how Singaporeans, or worse, how Asians view homosexuality. Please, don't use the multiculturalism excuse to tolerate bigotry. Just because it comes out from a person of a different colour doesn't make crap any less stinky.

    If you want to talk about multiculturalism, then consider Thailand, with its thriving culture of kathoeys (transgenders), who are accepted as part of society and are considered members of a third gender. Asian does not necessarily equate uptight conservative people who only have vanilla sex. Anyone familiar with Japanese porn can tell you that.

    I can safely tell you that while the older generation in Singapore, who remember an era when Singapore was still under British rule and a full meal could be had for 20 cents, may still have hangups towards homosexuality, the younger generation are a lot more open to the idea. Many of us have gay friends, many of us ARE gay and proud of it. And we're outspoken about it too.

    Recently there was a major debacle in which a women's rights group (AWARE) was taken over by a group of women who thought it was starting to propagate gay rights and didn't like the direction it was taking. This didn't sit well with a lot of people, who quickly moved to restore the status quo. Never before had there been such a scene of high emotions since the 1960s. Have a look: http://bit.ly/GXkQb http://bit.ly/R93ZC

  • simply wow
  • Posted by Richard , human rights attorney at Florida on July 11, 2009 at 12:15am EDT
  • I have a strong conviction that this woman should not teach human rights law at NYU. It is not about silencing somebody for their opinion; it is about not paying and evolving the career of someone who is an agent for an authoritarian regime that harms vulnerable people. In Singapore, because of her advocacy as a member of Parliament, you can go to Chingi prison—which I assure you is not a club Fed type situation—for two years. It is important to be polite and calm and reasonable. But there comes a point where polite and respectful tones are disrespectful to the victims of the state-sponsored abuse zealously propagated by this woman who is not even particularly respected in Singapore. Moreover, being familiar with her scholarship, my personal opinion is it vacillates from mediocrity—a lot of free speech/press/assembly may not be for everyone type stuff—to the spasmodically bizarre—allowing free speech is like legalizing drug trafficking; western values are motivated by the anti-Christ. I offer two links (located by a dedicated NYU student) since no sane person would believe such things to be true.

    http://www.armourpublishing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=243

    http://web.archive.org/web/20080120023725/http://newshub.nus.edu.sg/news/0510/pdf/Warwick-Today-20oct-p4.pdf

    As a practicing human rights lawyer I do not feel her understanding of human rights law, in Asia or anywhere else, is sufficient to teach it in a way productive to the growth of a student’s comprehension or the evolution of the subject’s corpus.

    As for the professor’s repeated evocating of academic freedom—it is appropriate to point out that NUS professors who opine against the teachings of the infallible People’s Action Party tend to get fired, bankrupted, and publicly mocked. As an engineer of that system that prohibits free speech, for her to lecture New York University activists about the tenants of the free market place of ideas evidences that she has balls the size of durian fruit.

  • Wow, simply
  • Posted by Tues on July 11, 2009 at 10:30am EDT
  • Fantastic rebuttals from the community. It's almost like watching a summer blockbuster. I was so engaged in reading this that I actually 'forgot' to go to the toilet.

    I'm a gay person living in Singapore and in my opinion, Dr. Thio with her big degree and her bombastic words have tried all ways and means to squash our basic human rights.

    I shall not add to the discourse, since we have gone through this in Singapore so many times and Dr. Thio will never see our point. It's like whipping a dead horse.

    I simply wonder what made NYU choose this particular professor to adjunct? Surely there are many other just-as-qualified professors, just as academically respected human right activists whose appointment would have raised less of a ruckus? I do not question Dr. Thio's scholastic achievements, they are definitely superlative; it is evident from her wide vocabulary.

    I do question her suitability to teach a class on Human Rights. I wouldn't attend a class on this subject that is taught by her. She has nothing to teach me. I will only willingly learn from someone who is qualified, who is better than me in this subject.

    Yo, NYU wake up.

  • Sad comments.
  • Posted by Michael on July 11, 2009 at 1:45pm EDT
  • "I was sorry to read that you were beaten up - that is never justified; and being called "faggot" is as ugly as being called "homophobe" so perhaps we will leave the name-callers to their own devices and treat each other first and foremost as human beings with intrinsic dignity. (Is that a howl of protests I hear across the cyber-waves by the usual band of demonisers? C'est la vie.)"

    I hope you are equally sorry to all the gay people in Singapore who have been thrown into jail under the law that you so vehemently defended in parliament.

    "I am a little weary of some of the sad posts from certain of my countrypeople who love to misrepresent and distort the nature of my views or the context and issue they were directed at."

    Goes to show how much respect you have from people in your own country. It is disappointing that NYU, as a bastion for gay people around the world, has invited Dr Li-Ann Thio to teach a course on Human Rights. Sad.

  • Posted by Eterna2 on July 12, 2009 at 5:45am EDT
  • Singaporean, not gay.

    I just wish to state that Dr Thio's views are not reflective of all Singaporean or the Singapore government.

    My opinion on why 377A was not repealed is not because the government view homosexuality as criminal but because they felt that social stability is more important than the rights of the minority. It was to appease the relatively vocal and powerful minority that opposes homosexuality, in consideration of the general discomfort / apathy of the majority. In short, this minority is actually threatening the government with social disharmony, because unlike them the LGBT in Singapore prefers a more peaceful approach.

    The only way I see how this can be defeated is education on homosexuality. That one day, the silent majority is no longer silent. But I have to admit, Dr Thio did very well in shaking me out of my apathy.

    But of course, this are but my personal opinions

  • the 'faggot' vs the 'homophobe'
  • Posted by Justin on July 14, 2009 at 5:15am EDT
  • 'I was sorry to read that you were beaten up - that is never justified; and being called "faggot" is as ugly as being called "homophobe" so perhaps we will leave the name-callers to their own devices and treat each other first and foremost as human beings with intrinsic dignity.'

    Dr Thio, please do not equate being called a 'faggot' to being called a 'homophobe'. The term 'faggot' is denigrating and insulting to any gay person, while 'homophobe' is only derogotary to the self-righteous bigot. Your failure to see the difference shows your presumption to the whole issue altogether.

  • Understanding Thio Li-Ann's mindset
  • Posted by Girif on July 14, 2009 at 12:15pm EDT
  • Understanding Thio Li-Ann's mindset...

    http://forum.channelnewsasia.com/viewtopic.php?t=249812&sid=343624668a7fe0f597ff68a0ebdae471

    http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/07/thio-li-ann-at-center-of-controversy-in-new-york-university/

    http://consideritopinion.blogspot.com/2009/05/straits-times-pushes-back.html

  • Allow her to teach
  • Posted by Neutral on July 20, 2009 at 11:30am EDT
  • I think we should give her a chance to come to NYU so that people can engage her on the true spirit of human rights. Maybe, instead of teaching, she will be taught what human rights really is. No matter how silly she may be in some areas, she has human rights too, be kind to her. She may go home from NYU wiser, humbler, and less hateful towards her fellow LGBT countrymen. That will be a good thing for everybody.

  • Posted by Sandy M , Ms. at National Univerisity of Singapore on July 30, 2009 at 8:00am EDT
  • Did she just said that "Do some Americans by appropriating the rhetoric of human rights assume they can impose their views on another sovereign state?" Article reads "On the substance of her views on gay rights, she argued in the e-mail that plenty of Americans may agree with her, and those who don't have no right to impose their values on other countries."

    Okay, so she shouldn't be assuming that she can impose her views on the rest of her country people either.