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Reforming the Humanities Ph.D.

October 12, 2009

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The right combination of money and policies can make real progress in reducing the time to degree for earning humanities doctorates, but the six-year humanities Ph.D. is probably not in the cards.

Those are among the key findings of one of the most ambitious efforts ever to reform the humanities Ph.D., as discussed in one of the most thorough (and frank) evaluations of such an effort. The reform effort was the Graduate Education Initiative of the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, which spent about $85 million over a 10-year period on both financial aid and other enhancements at 54 doctoral departments at 10 leading research universities. Extensive follow-up explored not only the reasons that students succeeded or failed, sped through (or what passes for speeding through in a humanities Ph.D.) or languished, but also what happened to them after they left -- with or without a Ph.D. in hand.

While some of the findings confirm conventional wisdom (say, about the importance of full aid packages), other findings may surprise. There are gender splits among doctoral students, but far fewer than might have been expected. The impact of money is strongest if spent in some areas (summer research, for instance) than others.

And full financing may have some negative effects as well, making it easier for some students who should leave a program to stick around. Those who leave doctoral programs without a Ph.D. tend to go on to earn other degrees -- and sometimes Ph.D.'s, to a greater extent than researchers expected. And both time to degree and publishing records while in graduate school have an impact on subsequent academic employment, although the correlations are complicated.

These and many other findings appear in Educating Scholars: Doctoral Education in the Humanities, which is about to be released by Princeton University Press. The four authors were given full access to extensive survey data and other materials about every department in the program, and were give the freedom to write about things that didn't work as well as those that did (and they used that freedom, even while finding many promising ideas emerged from the effort).

The four authors are Ronald G. Ehrenberg, the Irving M. Ives Professor of Industrial and Labor Relations and Economics at Cornell University and director of the Cornell Higher Education Research Institute; Harriet Zuckerman, senior vice president of the Mellon Foundation; Jeffrey A. Groen, a research economist at the Bureau of Labor Statistics; and Sharon M. Brucker, a project coordinator at the Survey Research Center of Princeton University.

The impetus for the Graduate Education Initiative was widespread frustration with the length of time it takes, on average, for graduate students to earn Ph.D.'s in the humanities. The long period of time to degree is associated with high attrition rates, higher expenses for universities, and prolonged periods in which the students themselves are delayed in starting their professional careers, and typically must manage on tight budgets.

While no one expects earning a Ph.D. to be a cakewalk, much of the concern comes from evidence that humanities Ph.D. programs are considerably longer (and less well financed) than those in other fields. According to data collected by the Council of Graduate Schools, by the end of the sixth year of a Ph.D. program, 48.8 percent of entering cohorts in engineering have earned a doctorate, compared to 39.3 percent in math and physical sciences, 31.1 percent in the social sciences, and only 19.6 percent in the humanities. By the end of year eight, the percentages having earned a doctorate top 60 in engineering and the life sciences, but only hit 36.7 percent for the humanities.

Time to Degree and Time to Exit

The basic premise of the Mellon project was that departments needed more money for aid packages, and also more attention to completion issues if time to degree would be decreased. And going in, there was hope that this could bring time to degree down to six years. While the exact nature of packages varied, there was generally a move to full support, with students being assured of funding for the first five years of a program and having a much better chance of keeping funding for a few subsequent years of dissertation writing.

Over all, completion rates and time to degree improved, but modestly. Of the 54 departments in the program, 27 increased their 8-year completion rates by more than 5 percentage points and 10 did so by more than 20 percentage points. But others didn't see gains, and a few even saw decreases in completion rates.

On time to degree, the movement was in the right direction, with times being reduced. But only six departments reached the six-year goal, leaving the authors doubtful that this goal could be achieved in any general way in the humanities.

A key finding on time to degree was where the time could be contracted. Almost all of the time savings were in the period in which graduate students take courses and pass qualifying examinations, and even programs that saw substantial reductions in time to degree did not see their students spending less time writing their dissertations. While many program characteristics stand out, Ehrenberg said in an interview that the one that appears to have the greatest impact is simple: expectations.

"Letting students know when they were supposed to complete various stages of the programs was very, very important," Ehrenberg said. That means "clear expectations" about when course work should be completed, when various exams should be taken, when dissertation plans should be firmly in place and so forth. He stressed that this was not an "either/or" with the rigor of course work and time to degree, but an approach of not letting students advance on their own schedule, but pushing realistic deadlines on them.

Financial aid can also be better directed to encourage earlier completion, the book says. It notes, for example, a strong impact from summer grants, which let students finish program requirements, do preliminary work on possible dissertation projects, and avoid the need to earn money in jobs unrelated to their programs.

One potential downside of more financial aid may be the impact on students who are not be well suited to a doctoral program. The study found that early attrition from programs dropped, and this isn't necessarily a good thing. Most experts on graduate education say that some program attrition is inevitable, but there has been a hope that attrition would take place early in programs, when the costs (financial and personal) to the students aren't as great. Ehrenberg said that the findings don't make him think financial aid should be lessened, but rather than generous packages need to be accompanied by frank discussions between professors and students.

Gender and Family Status

While one notable difference was found related to gender and family status among all the graduate students studied, the book notes with pleasure that in many respects humanities departments are treating their male and female students similarly, and that their success levels reflect that. Financial aid packages to men and women are comparable, and attrition rates are comparable for male and female single students.

In a finding that challenges the notion that parenthood is incompatible with earning a Ph.D., women who have children when they start a program did not pay a price in completion rates or time to degree in the sample studied, compared to women who started graduate school without children. (The sample studied did not yield evidence one way or another on the impact of having a child during graduate school. The research problem is that those in graduate school are more likely to have children the longer time goes by, and the data did not indicate whether having a child lengthens time to degree or taking longer to earn a Ph.D. increases the odds of having a child.)

While the study's results are generally encouraging about gender equity, there is one notable exception -- and it may not relate to qualities graduate departments can control.

Men who are married when they start graduate school are more likely than single men to graduate and to graduate more quickly. Married women, on the other hand, had no advantage over single women, so whatever the married men are getting in support from their spouses is not apparently duplicated.

The implication, quipped Ehrenberg, is that "everyone should have a wife."

Landing a Job, Time to Degree and Publishing

The book notes that one reason it may be impossible to get many more humanities doctoral students to finish in six years is that the job market does not reward this -- and it doesn't punish students for taking up to seven years to complete. Some have assumed that those who get through more quickly must have some level of brilliance in their ideas or devotion to their work that should help them to do well on the job market. But the minority of humanities who do finish in five or six years are in fact no more likely than others to have landed a tenure-track job within three years of finishing their doctorates, the study found. One faculty member told the scholars that those who finish quickly tend to produce "undercooked dissertations."

Where the market appears to shift is at eight years for degree completion, and this is significant because so many humanities doctorates do take that long. But at eight years or longer, chances of obtaining a tenure-track job within three years of finishing the doctorate go down.

Related to the question of time to degree and job placement (at least in the minds of some graduate students) is publication record. A much discussed trend in graduate education in recent years has been the push for more Ph.D. students to publish journal articles, breaking away from the traditional model in which grad students focused on their dissertation and worried about journal articles later. Many faculty members are dubious of the quality of publications by graduate students, and question whether they are really ready to publish, but many also have reported anecdotal evidence that prospective employers want to see publications.

The new book notes that it's not in a position to judge the quality of graduate students' articles. But it finds a significant correlation between publishing and success in the job market, with those who publish being more likely than others to land tenure-track jobs. Also significant, however, is a finding that those who publish successfully aren't necessarily taking longer to finish their degrees to do so. Those who finish quickly tend to publish more than others, in fact.

As a result, the book stresses that while this data may encourage publication, faculty members in departments where time to degree of eight or more years is the norm should be encouraging publishing only at a pace at which dissertation completion can advance, "no mean feat," the book says.

The Success of Those Who Leave

For a book about a research project designed to encourage more completion of Ph.D. programs, Educating Scholars is notably positive about what happens to those who leave and stresses that they should not be thought of as failures.

The book notes the stereotype of the taxi-driving A.B.D., and finds the reality is quite different. Of those who left the departments studied without earning a Ph.D., 12 percent ended up earning a Ph.D. either from a different university or another department at the same university. Another 18 percent earned other postgraduate degrees, many of them in business or law. And many who left their doctoral programs still received a master's degree from that department.

In terms of careers, 17 percent of those who departed programs reported that they were in managerial positions, 13 percent reported that they were either judges or lawyers, and a majority of the rest found careers in education, mostly at colleges and universities.

There were gender differences in the surveys of those who left on why they left. Women were more likely than were men to cite as reasons lost interest, health and family, or dissatisfaction with their departments. Men were more likely than women to cite as reasons a change in career goals or academic performance.

A Need for Case Studies and Commitment

Educating Scholars stressed repeatedly that, despite its wealth of data, it doesn't have a pure control group. The departments in the study all had more money to support their students, and all decided to participate because they thought these issues were important. But they made departmental changes in different ways, had different resources to start with, and the rest of their institutions also evolved during this period.

As a result, the book suggests careful analysis by other departments of the combination of factors that worked in this project, and of the way other departments have changed. (The book also includes, without identifying them, a number of such case studies, noting the combinations that yielded and didn't yield success.)

The book notes that beyond policies and money, attitudes are also important. Using observations from site visits, as well as other data, the book concludes that departments where faculty members "bought into" the idea of reducing time to degree showed much more progress than departments were the project was encouraged by the institution, but didn't have faculty buy-in. (The departments were selected at these institutions: Columbia, Cornell, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford and Yale Universities and the Universities of California at Berkeley, Chicago, Michigan, Pennsylvania.)

The Mellon initiative started in 1991 and continued for a decade, although some number of the departments (or sponsoring institutions) have continued many of the efforts since the official end of the program.

Ehrenberg, in the interview, said he worried that some of these efforts may be hurt by the economic troubles of today. "I think the job market is so bad now that I fear many students are just sort of hanging around graduate school for extra years" to try to become more competitive. That adds to the expenses for students and institutions -- and, as the book finds, may not actually help their odds of landing a job.

The book closes by noting that "intensive critical attention" to graduate education has been shown to make a difference in completion and time to degree. And the book notes just how formative graduate education can be: "The education scholar receives stays with them; its influence flows into their teaching and research and finally to the successive generations of their students."

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Comments on Reforming the Humanities Ph.D.

  • Posted by Philip Cohen , Graduate Dean at UT Arlington on October 12, 2009 at 11:30am EDT
  • Scott-

    When you write "the six-year humanities PhD is probably not in the cards," do you mean 6 years post-master's or post-baccalaureate?

    Phil Cohen

  • Comments on length of graduate school careers
  • Posted by Thomas Tartaron , Assistant Professor, Department of Classical Studies at University of Pennsylvania on October 12, 2009 at 1:00pm EDT
  • I would add that many graduate students delay completion for reasons beyond enhancing their competitive edge in a bad economy. For many, the decision is about access to affordable health care and other resources, such as research funding and opportunities to teach. Graduating can cut one off from all of these. ABDs may hedge their bets by not "finishing" unless they have a job in hand, in which case they can bring the dissertation to a quick conclusion. Graduate school policies regarding when funds and resources are cut off may effect shorter tenures in some cases, but many programs offer deferment of funding years when students find alternative funds, such as Fulbrights or other research grants. In those cases time to graduation may be longer than six years, but the university will not have devoted full resources to the student over that time.

  • A Necessary Reform
  • Posted by Hannah on October 12, 2009 at 1:00pm EDT
  • A reform in the Humanities doctorate track that is absolutely and ethically necessary is to restrict the inflow of potential graduate students. After six years and 80K to obtain my doctorate in Compositon and Literature, I ended up almost living in my car for several years because my pay as an adjunct instructor at several community collleges was so abysmal. Not to mention the lack of professional respect. If you cannot move out of state to--maybe--get a tenure-track job after ten years of being an adjunct, and you are over age 45, those heady years studying Eagleton, Elbow, and Iser in the rarified zephyrs of the ivory tower can turn into a career of teaching remedial composition courses, stressing over your class getting taken away from you, and wondering if you can afford the dentist after you've gone through the hassle of applying for EDD and prayed you will be approved.

    There are plenty of industries that will use the skills of engineering, business, social sciences, or math Ph.D.'s, but the Humanities doctorate almost always has teaching as the final goal. The question then becomes, as laid-off Eng. 100 teachers line up for welfare, EDD, and food stamps, is it ethical for universities to accept as many post-graduate students as will fill the classrooms, knowing that over 80% of those doctorates will condemn those who must pay back those loans to humiliating working conditions and poverty wages?

    The K-12 system requires that teachers be certificated in teaching, while higher ed teachers don't need certification. Those extra units to obtain teaching certification help limit the number of potential teachers to the number of full-time jobs available after graduation. Perhaps becoming a community college or higher ed instructor, especially in the Humanities, could have the additional requirement of getting a teaching certificate? At the very least, universities need to get a CONSCIENCE and give entering students full disclosure on their odds of getting a tenure-track teaching job upon graduation and/or limit the number of potential doctorates.

  • "Everybody needs a wife"
  • Posted by PiledHigher&Deeper , PhD at European on October 12, 2009 at 3:45pm EDT
  • The article reads, "Men who are married when they start graduate school are more likely than single men to graduate and to graduate more quickly. Married women, on the other hand, had no advantage over single women, so whatever the married men are getting in support from their spouses is not apparently duplicated."

    I love the heavy-handed, feminist interpretation of the research data. What if the "support" that men are getting "from their spouses" is the PRESSURE to start paying some of the bills and changing some of the diapers!? I can't imagine there are too many wives who want to put their lives on hold in order to continue paying for their husbands' humanities habit. And even fewer are eager to be martyrs.

    When I was in graduate school and one of my male classmates got married, the running joke was, "He'll get his act together now" (wink, wink...). And, to nobody's surprise, Incompletes became a thing of the past, deadlines were met, etc., etc. Support can come either in the stereotypical nurturing, suffering way (but what an unabashedly patriarchal interpretation of a wife's relationship to her husband!), or in the form of the hard-working wife who keeps checking up on her husband to make sure he has the next chapter written so he'll have no more excuses for shirking his share of the domestic duties, especially if there are children.

    Show me the husband who would attempt to "support" his wife by peering over her shoulder ("You're STILL thinking about the importance of Rousseauvian thought in _Mrs. Dalloway_? Honey, how many more months do I have to live on grilled cheese sandwiches and refried beans?!"), and I'll show you a pig.

  • +
  • Posted by Humanities Grad Student , PhD Candidate at Top 20 on October 13, 2009 at 9:15am EDT
  • Thanks to 3 months of summer funding of about $4,500 per year for 4 years I was able to concentrate on (first) my exam requirements and (later) my dissertation. Without that support I'd have been working on fellowship and grant applications, lesson plans, and loan forms instead of requirements.

    At the same time, I agree with Professor Tartaron and Hannah. The reason I'm not on the job market this year is because there are fewer jobs than normal, and I'm unwilling to take 4-5 adjunct positions to cover my rent and health insurance. I added a year to my time to completion but I also took the risk that there will be a stronger job market next year. And perhaps my dissertation will now be less "undercooked." It will certainly be longer.

  • Changes to Humanities degrees
  • Posted by RP on October 13, 2009 at 9:30am EDT
  • "At the very least, universities need to get a CONSCIENCE and give entering students full disclosure on their odds of getting a tenure-track teaching job upon graduation and/or limit the number of potential doctorates."

    I don't think I was ever misled about my chances of getting a tenure-track job -- it's always been pretty clear that it is bleak. But I do think that schools need to limit the # of potential doctorates.

    As harsh as this may sound, one way to accomplish this is to tackle grade inflation at the graduate level. We all think its bad in undergraduate education, but in many humanities programs (including my own) grad students rarely get anything but an A even for extremely shoddy work. I understand why -- many faculty don't want to hurt the students' chances of getting a job or crush their dreams of being the next Robin Williams in Dead Poet's Society -- but it would serve many of these students better if they received Bs and, yes, even Cs for work that does not represent true graduate student quality. Maybe if more grad students were told very clearly up-front that they were not meant for a career in academia, there'd be fewer PhDs flooding the market and struggling to get any job just to pay off their student loans.

  • Let's get some perspective!
  • Posted by beatrice , professor emerita at A northeastern university on October 13, 2009 at 2:00pm EDT
  • This discussion, like the research, is interesting but lacks historical and cross-disciplinary perspective. Dissertations in the humanities did not always take a decade (although mine did), and in other disciplines they don't today.

    Back in the glory days of the fifties, ivy league dissertations took a year or two, and some sprinters finished in a matter of months. Our demands on graduate students since then have increased practically exponentially. Does this serve any useful purpose, besides producing a lot of stress and turgid prose?

    Meanwhile, in my work in higher ed policy, I repeatedly come across highly structured, cohort-based programs in professional fields that move students through on a firm schedule with loads of formal dissertation support built in from the start. The assumption is that students will finish coursework in two years and the dissertation in another 1-2 years. Not all students do finish in such a timely manner, but at least the tools are there for those who can and want to do so.

  • Humanities, Politics & Grade Inflation
  • Posted by Hannah on October 13, 2009 at 2:00pm EDT
  • I agree that grade inflation retains and then pushes too many humanities doctoral candidates in the "supply" pool of adjunct faculty working for poverty wages. My Composition Theory instructor at SUNY gave everyone in his class "A's" because he thought it would be "insulting" to have students, having made it into the level of his class, receive anything less than an "A." Ironically, a bit like tenure, which rewards the instructor with a job for life once you make it through the probationary gates. But that's another topic.....

    In the humanities assigning a "correct" grade is subject to a degree of subjectivity and personal politics on various instructors' part that the sciences and trades do not and cannot afford to have. When I searched around for readers for my dissertation, I was turned down by one professor because my work did not fit the radical feminist politics in vogue at the time, by another professor because the new literary theory I was developing did not fit the post-modern framework through which every other theory was discussed, by another because it might be politically detrimental for him to associate his name with my dissertation that did not quite fit in with the writing and the new media framework he was publishing papers on. My choice was either change my topic to one I did not really believe in or forgo the Ph.D. I sold out, got the doctorate, and still ended up as an adjunct in local community colleges (a venue I much pefer than to the one I taught in as a GTA for often spoiled grad students) for 16 years, in part because I was 46 when I got my degree.

    Perhaps the A-giving professor had a point. Unlike measures of how well one knows legal precedents, phsysical anatomy, astronomy coordinates, or social psychology applications, trying to grade humanities work is too arbitrary, subjective, and vaporous in a world where the graduate will not find a cure for cancer or AIDS, develop a "green" water treatment system, develop a car that gets 98 miles a gallon and stands up to crashes, or engineer am efficient and cost effective health care system. Yet I and many of my colleagues would not trade the expansive mental gymnastics we developed in the humanities for the supposedly more "practica' and "rigid" sciences for anything. And we love imparting critical thinking skills to our students, no matter where we teach.

    The problem arises when humanities grad students must fork out the same money for a doctorate as a health sciences graduate who has a much better chance of getting a job to pay back those loans. Only the few who are wealthy enough to afford to "play" with various theories for six years, whose politics fit right in with the academic political fashioln at the time, and who are passionate enough about their pursuit that living in porverty is no obstacle to eventually getting that university professorship. That is why more survival-oriented, poorer minorities rarely pursue a doctorate in the humanites and why those who plan to obtain a Ph.D. in the humanities must be rigorously and earnestly aprised of their perceived (because there's no scientific way to measure humanities aptitude and earnestness) ability to "make it" in this "soft" job field in which a dancer, actor, or artist has a better chance of making a living.

     

  • Amazing
  • Posted by Charles Muscatine , Prof. of English, emeritus at U. of Calif., Berkeley on October 14, 2009 at 2:45pm EDT
  • It's amazing that neither the report of the report nor the comments above mention the immense drawbacks imposed by the monographic dissertation, which most candidates are not ready to do, and which generally are execrably bad. Surely there must be better and quicker ways to demonstrate a student's intellectual qualities than with the premature production of a "Book."

  • Response to "Amazing"
  • Posted by Lindsay , MA Candidate/Social Sciences at University of Chicago on October 16, 2009 at 12:15pm EDT
  • A (wise) professor of mine proposed that there be a "teaching track" for humanities and social sciences PhD candidates where qualification would be attained in part by...well, teaching, rather than writing a "premature 'book'".

  • Lindsay
  • Posted by DFS on October 17, 2009 at 12:00pm EDT
  • Your professor was indeed 'wise.'

    There's nothing like knowing what you don't know.

    That should be spread around.

  • A way to lessen the time spent writing the dissertation
  • Posted by Gina Hiatt , President and Founder at Academic Ladder, LLC on October 18, 2009 at 4:30am EDT
  • We have identified a way to lessen the amount of time it takes to write the dissertation, improve the quality of the dissertation, and inculcate habits that will help the student in their academic career. Based on hundreds of case histories, testimonials, and detailed ratings from universities such as UMass Amherst and Emory University, our program lessens the amount of time spent procrastinating and leads to more productive writing and enjoyment of the writing process. The Academic Writing Club (see http://academicwritingclub.com) helps both grad students and professors by providing the collegiality, accountability, structure, feedback, coaching guidance, and support that is needed on a daily basis to work productively over the months and years it takes to write a dissertation. If departments would put just some of these structures in place, I am sure they could reduce time to degree.

  • Crucial points missing
  • Posted by SW on October 18, 2009 at 1:00pm EDT
  • Sorry but I think the report has missed a few crucial points. One: humanities PhD advisors are rarely interested in time-to-degree for the dissertatiosn they supervise. Why? Because they have no incentive to do, i.e. neither their pay nor their research funding depends on it. THAT is what's different in sciences and engineering, where at least part of the funding comes from grants that the advisors use to fund research teams that must show results under some kind of time constraints. (I guess the Economics Profs. that did this report forgot to follow that aspect of the money issue...hmmm).
    Two: Humanities grad students often teach a lot of the undergraduate classes to free up time for the senior faculty and save money for the university. That sort of work takes up a LOT of preparation time and the grad students are often a lot more conscientious and caring about that sort of teaching than faculty members (ask any undergraduate!). And yet there is no real recognition of that work and no attempt to cut it down. By the way, this is also different in the sciences and engineering, where grad students teach a lot less or not at all.
    In my opinion these are the two main reasons and I wish the study had focused on them instead on the usual platitudes and on asking for more money (which seems to be the answer gives by economists to just about any problem these days...)
    Again:
    Make faculty accountable for dissertation supervision.
    Cut the teaching load for PhD students.

    Anything else is coffeeshop talk.

  • Late entry...
  • Posted by Bola C. King , Ph.D. student, Department of English at UC-Santa Barbara on October 28, 2009 at 5:15am EDT
  • ...because I'm working on my dissertation. ;)

    This is an interesting conversation, but my question is this: why is it presumed that the only available job for a humanities PhD is teaching in a college/university humanities department? Are we saying that this is a "professional degree" in the way that, say, an MD is? Medical doctorates are destined (doomed?) to become physicians or surgeons, law-school grads to become lawyers and judges, MBAs to become middle managers.

    But wait: MDs also become hospital administrators, legal consultants, inventors, and researchers. Law-school grads also become authors, activists, and (God help us) politicians. MBAs also become non-profit administrators, entrepreneurs, and schoolteachers. Hell, even physics PhDs run the gamut from physics professor to television consultant to astronaut. So who says a humanities PhD can pursue only the one path of academia? Why would you even want to pretend that that's the case and then follow up with how crappy the market has always been? While such news obviously is not enough to dissuade many of us from doing what we love - which must be why most of us do it, 'cause it sure ain't for the money - it's also an incomplete picture that is a disservice to everyone involved.

    Why not entertain the idea that a successful humanities PhD can lead to other careers, as well? Why not see where in industry, government, or the non-profit sector our skill set is appreciated, and then tell us about it? What about college or university administration - or K-12 administration, for that matter? What about non-profit work (especially at funding agencies), the academic publishing industry, or the corporate training industry? And why not try to advertise your students to the gatekeepers at these other career paths, so both sides can help us to get good jobs with good pay? Imagine how these prospects could help motivate some of us; imagine how much pressure might be relieved from the academic market (for both employers and job-seekers). Most of these industries don't even need a dissertation to become a book; they just want to see that we can commit to a major, long-term project and see it through. They want people like us, humanists who think critically, who can genuinely see multiple perspectives, who can organize both information and people, who communicate well in multiple formats, who can explain things to others, who understand that people(s) and culture(s) are more than just data, who totally get the importance of funding, and whose broad-based education allows us to pick up pretty much any challenge and run with it. These are skills that are valued beyond the hallowed halls of academe. And most of these skills are cultivated as fundamental to the humanities skill set, so we are already trained.

    The news from this report isn't really news, but it is a wake-up call. If the dissertation is part of the problem, and the tenure-track system can't be bothered to help, maybe the endgame can be broadened. Maybe it's time for the humanities to think outside the box. That's supposed to be what we're good at.