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If Not Religion, What?

August 31, 2007

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In a variety of arenas, from politics to high schools, from colleges to the military, Americans argue as though the proper face-to-face discussion in our society ought to be between religion and science. This is a misunderstanding of the taxonomy of thought. Religion and science are in different families on different tracks: science deals with is vs. isn’t and religion, to the extent that it relates to daily life, deals with should vs. shouldn’t.

These are fundamentally different trains. They may hoot at each other in passing, and many people attempt to switch them onto the same track (mainly in order to damage science), but this is an act of the desperate, not the thoughtful.

It is true that a portion of religious hooting has to do with is vs. isn’t questions, in the arena of creationism and its ancillary arguments. However, this set of arguments, important as it might be for some religious people, is not important to a great many (especially outside certain Protestant variants), while the moral goals and effects of religious belief are a far more common and widespread concern among many faiths. I was raised in Quaker meeting, where we had a saying: Be too busy following the good example of Jesus to argue about his metaphysical nature.

Until recently, most scientists didn’t bother trying to fight with religion; for the most part they ignored it or practiced their own faiths. However, in recent years Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris have decided to enter the ring and fight religion face to face. The results have been mixed. I have read books by all of these authors on this subject, as well as the interesting 2007 blog exchange between Harris and Andrew Sullivan, one of the best writers active today and a practicing Catholic, and it is clear that a great deal of energy is being expended firing heavy ordnance into black holes with no likelihood of much effect.

The problem that the scientific horsemen face is that theirs is the language of is/isn’t. Their opponents (mostly Christians but by implication observant Jews and Muslims as well) don’t use the word “is” to mean the same thing. To a religious person, God is and that’s where the discussion begins. To a nonreligious scientist, God may or may not be, and that is where the discussion begins.

The two sides, postulating only two for the moment, are each on spiral staircases, but the stairs wind around each other and never connect: this is the DNA of unmeeting thoughts. Only shouting across the gap happens, and the filters of meaning are not aligned. That is why I don’t put much faith, you’ll pardon the expression, in this flying wedge of scientific lancers to change very many minds.

Dennett’s approach is quite different from the others at a basic level; he views religious people as lab rats and wants to study why they squeak the way they do. That way of looking at the issue seems insulting at first but is more honest and practical in that it doesn’t really try to change minds that are not likely to change.

But these arguments are the wrong ones at a very basic level, especially for our schools and the colleges that train our teachers. The contrapuntal force to religion, that force which is in the same family, if a different genus, speaks the same language in different patterns regarding the same issues. It is not science, it is philosophy. That is what our teachers need to understand, and this distinction is the one in which education colleges should train them.

Those of us who acknowledge the factual world of science as genuine and reject the idea of basing moral and “should” questions in the teachings of religion are left seeking an alternate source for sound guidance. Our own judgment based in experience is a strong basic source. The most likely source, the ‘respectable’ source with sound academic underpinnings that can refine, inform and burnish our judgment, is philosophy in its more formal sense.

The word “philosophy” conjures in many minds the image of dense, dismal texts written by oil lamp with made-up words in foreign languages, and far beyond mortal ken. In fact, many writers on philosophy are quite capable of writing like human beings; some of their books are noted below.

When we introduce more religious studies into our K-12 schools, as we must if people are ever to understand each other’s lives, the family of learning into which they must go also contains philosophy. It is this conversation, between the varieties of religious outlooks and their moral conclusions, and the same questions discussed by major philosophers, that needs to happen.

Philosophy is not all a dense, opaque slurry of incomprehensible language. Some excellent basic books are available that any reasonably willing reader can comprehend and enjoy. Simon Blackburn’s Think, Robert Solomon and Kathleen Higgins’ A Passion for Wisdom and Erik Wielenberg’s Value and Virtue in a Godless Universe are some recent examples.

An older text providing a readable commentary on related issues is John Jay Chapman’s Religion and Letters, still in print in his Collected Works but hard to find in the original, single volume . Chapman wrote of changes in our school system that:

“It is familiarity with greatness that we need—an early and first-hand acquaintance with the thinkers of the world, whether their mode of thought was music or marble or canvas or language. Their meaning is not easy to come at, but in so far as it reaches us it will transform us. A strange thing has occurred in America. I am not sure that it has ever occurred before. The teachers wish to make learning easy. They desire to prepare and peptonize and sweeten the food. Their little books are soft biscuits for weak teeth, easy reading on great subjects, but these books are filled with a pervading error: they contain a subtle perversion of education. Learning is not easy, but hard: culture is severe.”

This, published in 1910, is remarkably relevant to education at all levels today. The idea that philosophy is too hard for high school students, which I doubt, simply means that we need to expect more of students all through K-12. Many of them would thank us.

Paul Kurtz’s Affirmations and my brother John Contreras’s Gathering Joy are interesting “guidebooks” that in effect apply philosophical themes in an informal way to people’s real lives. There are also somewhat more academic books that integrate what amount to philosophical views into daily life such as Michael Lynch’s True to Life: Why Truth Matters, physicist Alan Lightman’s A Sense of The Mysterious and the theologian John O’Donohue’s Beauty: The Invisible Embrace.

Some of these are denser than others and not all are suited for public schools, but the ideas they discuss are often the same ideas discussed in the context of religions, and sometimes with similar language. It is this great weave of concepts that our students should be exposed to, the continuum of philosophical thought blended with the best that different religions have to offer.

The shoulds and shouldn’ts that are most important to the future of our society need to be discussed in colleges, schools and homes, and the way to accomplish this is to bring religions and philosophies back to life as the yin and yang of right and wrong. That is the great conversation that we are not having.

Alan L. Contreras has been administrator of the Oregon Office of Degree Authorization, a unit of the Oregon Student Assistance Commission, since 1999. His views do not necessarily represent those of the commission. He blogs at http://oregonreview.blogspot.com.

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Comments on If Not Religion, What?

  • Posted by Jason Gersh on August 31, 2007 at 7:55am EDT
  • "Religion and science are in different families on different tracks: science deals with is vs. isn’t and religion, to the extent that it relates to daily life, deals with should vs. shouldn’t."

    I don't think this dichotomy holds up under closer scrutiny. Yes, it may be true that a number of religious believers, particularly on the more liberal end of the spectrum, concern themselves more with "should" questions than "is." Nevertheless, there are plenty of believers who regularly cross over the boundary between these supposedly non-overlapping magisteria: we should discount neither modern theologians like Richard Swinburne who continue to debate the latter nor the frighteningly high number of those who believe in a 6-day creation. Moreover (and perhaps more importantly), the question of what is or is not true has a tremendous impact upon how one ought to behave. In order to accomplish the latter, we need science to inform us about how the universe works so that we understand the consequences of our actions.

    One of the fundamental points that Daniel Dennett, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris are trying to make is that this sort of mechanistic understanding of how the universe works--the sort we need for making moral decisions--is fundamentally at odds with the phenomenon of faith, which is ultimately not subject to rational argument. To the extent that believers are willing to put faith aside and work with scientific evidence in dealing with moral questions within our secular society, there is plenty of common ground between believers and non-believers. Once faith is introduced into the debate, however, all hope of common ground is lost.

  • What We “Should” Do Is Study The Sciences!
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 31, 2007 at 8:20am EDT
  • As much as I (used to) love philosophy and was devoted to religion, I am unalterably opposed to furthering the faith-driven indoctrination of young people in this country by implementing programs like the ones proposed here.

    I have been thinking lately about several articles I read in InsideHigherEd during the past few weeks. Each, in it’s own way, laments the facts that (1) young people in the United States are either not interested in or do not have the intellectual capability and discipline to study the (non-social) sciences and (2) we do not have a sufficient number of college and university (non-social) science majors to satisfy our domestic needs for scientists and (3) if it were not for the enormous numbers of (non-social) scientists we import from abroad to teach science, mathematics, engineering, and technology (SMET) courses in American colleges and universities, we would be in dire straits. Obviously, this is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg of scientific illiteracy in America.

    The price you must pay to hear the solution to, not only the problem at the tip of the iceberg, but the entire berg, is listening to a short rant. First, that approximately 60% of Americans do not believe in evolution

    http://www.data360.org/graph_group.aspx?Graph_Group_Id=286

    is an educational, evidential, and scientific scandal of major proportions. Furthermore, were it not for the fact that the scientific "knowledge" of the church-goers who make up a huge proportion of that 60% is so embedded in Biblical superstition and reinforced at least bi-weekly by religious leaders who espouse such silly nonsense from pulpits around the country, we could probably reduce that percentage to 25% in a decade, although still being somewhat less informed than the French.

    Second, fools – yes, I called them fools – like Senator Sam Brownback of Kansas; Mike Huckabee, former governor of Arkansas; and Representative Tom Tancredo of Colorado should have been laughed and hooted off the stage of the first Republican debate in early May for raising their hands when asked “Does anyone here not believe in evolution?” Being polite to ignoramuses in response to such stupidity is beyond the pale ... or at least it should be.

    Third, I conjecture that before my grandchildren are my age there will be very few intellectual "requirements" for a God. As it is, most of my friends who have a God have “selected” theirs, not by choices based upon intellect; but strictly by the accidents of parentage and geography. In my lifetime, the tension between science and religion has been both dynamic and interesting. Early on there were a substantial number of gaps in the scientific records of creation and existence, and religion just loves gaps. The religious response to a gap is “See! See! You can’t explain that ... so understanding it necessitates a belief in God’s existence.” And to top that off, we have elevated our importance in the scheme of things to the point that, whoever this God is, He must surely love us and have a personal interest in our wellbeing ... at least up to the point of making it easy for us to understand scientific fact and theory.

    Unfortunately for religion (and philosophy), during the past century a very large number of these gaps have either been filled or significantly narrowed by scientific discovery, and our “requirements” for His intervention in creation have become fewer and of less consequence. The more science demonstrates that we don’t need the so-called handiwork of God or the intervention of the gods to explain this or that, the more swiftly those who need a God to give their lives meaning will frantically search for yet another explanation for His “essential being.” It reminds me just a bit of George W. Bush’s constantly changing his explanation of why we must fight a war against the people of Iraq after each of his previous explanations are, one by one, shown to be pure nonsense.

    And about the eye – and, good grief, am I ever sick if the Intelligent Designers bringing up the eye – check out the following short explanation ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=furcepFlfZ4&mode=related&search=

    Manley’s Church

    That brings me to Manley’s Church. I am suggesting that, as civilized and intelligent beings, we take all the resources invested in churches, synagogues, and mosques in this country, not to mention our investment in the personnel who service them, and reinvest it all in neighborhood science centers. It just warms my heart to imagine a country dominated by worshipers of knowledge based upon evidence (aka scientific discovery) as opposed to a country run by worshipers of superstition based upon faith. And I love the thought of millions of my fellow citizens trucking off to their favorite neighborhood science center a couple of times a week to learn about physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, cosmology, geology, and yes, even the queen of the sciences, mathematics (and formal logic). Perhaps at the Wednesday night services for the unusually committed we will even include a little statistics and computer science.

    The thought of a population of Americans literate in the sciences and mathematics, and, in addition to that, not encumbered by blind faith in the superstitions of religion, is right up my alley. With a Manley’s Church on almost every block in this wonderful country, our fears about the inferiority of our knowledge of science amongst Northern Hemisphere nations will disappear in a few short decades. And the payoff vis-à-vis practically every dimension of our lives will escalate dramatically.

    Just to get us started, let’s eliminate, right off the bat, everything that someone suggests we must accept by faith ... remember, we’re worshipers of data, evidence, logic, the scientific method, research, etc. In that light, conjecture is revered while faith is disdained.

    Looking only at the transformation of those who used to be Christians, I’m thinking that learning at the former Pentecostal Holiness Church, for example, will be at the level of “Science News.” Initially, at least, former Catholics and Baptists will study at the level of “Scientific American,” and, of course, as individuals graduate from Methodism to Presbyterianism to Episcopalianism to Unitarianism, we will see much more teaching, research, and learning at the level of “Nature” and “Science.”

    So, Professor Contreras, when you’re prepared to address the issue if science education in K-12, give me a call.

  • Posted by K.T. on August 31, 2007 at 10:10am EDT
  • "Second, fools – yes, I called them fools..."

    As much as I agree with your views on the importance of science, such intolerance has no place in education. You'd be better off staying home and not passing on such disrespect to the children of others. Let more evenhanded educators take the lead... If you can't discuss the views of others without resorting to name calling, a different career choice might be in order.

  • I disagree...
  • Posted by Bob on August 31, 2007 at 10:10am EDT
  • This is a decent argument which is "rational" attempt to break the arguments down into their component parts. I don't think it will work.

    Further, I am not sure that we should be widening the "gulf" between science and religion. Philosophy is the fulcrum between science and religion for sure. Philosophy has existed alongside religion or faith as long as man has existed. Science was a later outgrowth, both protaganist (some might say) and antagonist to both religion and philosophy.

    Religion and faith are about belief. Rational thought, logic and science are not required for belief.

    Philosophy (and theology) is about questioning and understanding belief. Asking the right question is paramount to this endevour. Philosophers may be believers, agnostics or nonbelievers.

    Science is about suspending or nuetralizing belief in an attempt to test those beliefs, and rather than questioning them instead proposes the antithesis to the (long held) belief. Scientists may be believers, agnostics or nonbelievers.

    I had a Philosophy professor and mentor named John who held (nonjudgementally) that religion is for those people who need answers in their lives. Whether those answers are logical, rational or scientific does not matter as long as the believer believe's the tenets, and the held beliefs "seem" to work for them. John was an ordained minister as well as a PhD Philosphy professor.

    We all know the old rubric that "for those who believe no explanation (or evidence) is needed, and for those who do not, no explanation will suffice."

    John held that philosophy was for those who had heard the answers provided by those various belief systems and questioned them for a variety of reasons.

    Science is for those people who want to test the beliefs, and the logic upon which they are grounded.

    The tension comes from believers trying to convert those who are not believers, and from scientists who are trying convert those who are not "testers".

    Philosophers tend not to try to convert anybody to anything, but they would be happy if everyone asked more questions.

  • Too rigid a dichotomy
  • Posted by Glen S. McGhee , Dir., at Florida Higher Education Accountability Project on August 31, 2007 at 10:10am EDT
  • There are both practical and theoretical problems with Alan’s proposals, and it is clear that he hasn’t been in a classroom much, or if he has, that it has been a long time ago.

    First, let me see if I understand what he is proposing.

    “The contrapuntal force to religion, that force which is in the same family, if a different genus, speaks the same language in different patterns regarding the same issues. It is not science, it is philosophy. That is what our teachers need to understand, and this distinction is the one in which education colleges should train them [because we] are left seeking an alternate source for sound guidance.”

    This is an old idea, a very old idea. The ante-bellum idea that education was about building character and student morals, of course, was one of the main reasons clergy made good college presidents a hundred years ago, and why they often taught a senior capstone course called “moral philosophy.” However, I don’t think this is what Alan has in mind. Moral philosophy owes much to Scottish realism (Thomas Reid, Adam Smith) and is a form of theism that would present serious Constitutional challenges if taught today.

    But let me go a little deeper here.

    Regarding the religion / science dichotomy (a false one), which Alan strikingly depicts this way: “The two sides, postulating only two for the moment, are each on spiral staircases, but the stairs wind around each other and never connect: this is the DNA of unmeeting thoughts.”

    Yet the fact that folks are writing books about this, on both sides of the conflict, should have reminded Alan that this confrontation has the classic characteristics of an intellectual controversy, one in which the social networks of thinkers aligned on both sides do battle with one another. This is no different than the scholastic debates of the middle ages, and the confrontations that brought us the Reformation. They occur face-to-face (think Foucault and Chomsky), and they occur in print media, etc.

    It is on this social and intellectual battlefield that the combatants achieve glory, however fleeting, or suffer ignominious defeat. According to sociologist, Randall Collins, it is very much a status-competition, one which he maps out on a grand scale in his *The Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change* (Harvard, 1998). The graphic depictions of the waves of thought and intellectual change, and their social network foundations, offer powerful insights into what sociologists believe occurs in these conflicts. (See, for example, the intellectual sources and contexts for education’s Saint John Dewey, http://home.earthlink.net/~fheapblog/id28.html ).

    Simply put, we miss what is going on when we forget the social contexts (that are shaped by intellectual histories, politics, economics, etc.) for what happens in our culture and institutions. Sociology, then, trumps philosophy, and science for that matter (my next point).

    ”Religion and science are in different families on different tracks: science deals with is vs. isn’t and religion, to the extent that it relates to daily life, deals with should vs. shouldn’t.”

    This is, perhaps, where Alan couldn’t be more inaccurate. Anyone with a passing acquaintance with “science studies” or the “science wars” can fully appreciate the social constructedness of science. Although we may think that the speed of light is a constant (and even now there is some doubt about this), *were* we to ask passersby at random what that speed is, we would get various answers. The speed of light is NOT a constant across society. Rather, science “is” for those involved with it.

    There is also the matter of science’s *frontstage*, what Thomas Kuhn famously called “textbook” science, which presents a coherent, polished public relations “face” for show. But it is the *backstage* of science, the controversies, the fuzziness as competing researchers fight for their theories (and fame), that is more interesting, more alive, more human.
    “To a religious person, God is and that’s where the discussion begins. To a nonreligious scientist, God may or may not be, and that is where the discussion begins.”

    Similarly, Alan makes questionable assumptions about religion – either reducing it to social norms (“should vs. shouldn’t”), or making the claims that “the discussion begins” with “God is.” Both radical theologians and orthodox Christians share a deep religious commitment to the Crucifixion as the starting point of theology. Arguably, the Cross is also where God dies. Likewise, theological Paul Tillich in his “The Dynamics of Faith,” showed why it was wrong to talk about God as a being alongside other beings, since this would subordinate God to the category of being.

    There is one last point to be made.

    Although I do not share the faith of fundamentalist scientists, I have met enough of them to know that there are enough of them around to contradict the rigid dichotomy Alan proposes. Both strands of the spiral staircase inhabit their minds; minds that are, no doubt, the result of their intellectual involvement with social groups espousing these ideas. Perhaps it can be said, however tentatively, that we err when draw distinctions too sharply, that shut them out as well.

  • Still, the stupid either/or
  • Posted by kgotthardt on August 31, 2007 at 10:15am EDT
  • Wow. This is a loaded article with loaded responses. I disagree with a number of statements Contreras makes, especially that religion deals with the “should and should-nots.” Yes, this is true to an extent, but most religious people will tell you it’s much more than that, which you note when you discuss the evolution controversy. And as noted, which I agree with, this discussion is generated more from philosophy, not necessarily strictly science or religion.

    We have allowed evolution to become a stumbling block in education, both scientifically and religiously. Most religions are based on the “I believe” and scientists don’t like this. Scientists like “I know because I can prove….” An “I believe” does not offer the kind of proof scientists are looking for. Yet scientists DO begin with theory, and as Einstein says, “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” I am not saying religions are necessarily based on imaginative beliefs, but there is something of the mysterious and unexplained in both science and religion.

    Both science and religion need to focus on that shared ground: the mystery, the intricacy and the beauty of life, how biology works, the miracle of how it has come to be, with or without a god, with or without a “big bang.” There is no reason why science, philosophy, and world religions cannot be taught at all levels. Courses like “This Philosophy of Science” and “The Philosophies of World Religions” would engage students at every level. Children, tweens and teens understand more than we think, and they want their minds nurtured and expanded, not inhibited. And yes, courses like these would be hard work, no doubt about it, but they would satisfy a number of constituents looking for well rounded education (see http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_school.htm ).

    There are many religious people out there who don’t see evolution as contradiction of a supreme being. When we do see such outbursts insisting on contradictions, what we are witnessing is a polarization of thought, the either/or mentality that says, “Since I don’t believe in what you stand for, I must fight to the death to preserve my own beliefs. And in doing so, I will strengthen my own beliefs so they remain protected. (see http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week841/cover.html). This is the mentality of fear.

    If scientists and the religious truly believe in their intellectual and faith-based ideas, then they should not fear the exploration of all subjects in school. Religion is part of culture and society, and so is science. To deny children and adults exposure to all is to deny true education. Believe me, children will engage and come to their own conclusions anyway. Any parent knows that.

  • Math is religion
  • Posted by T-bone on August 31, 2007 at 10:15am EDT
  • Contreras draws too fine a distinction between science and religion, religion and philosophy, and philosophy and science.

    The argument can be made that math is religion. For example, consider Euclidean Geometry. (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/EuclidsPostulates.html) Euclid developed 4 postulates - that cannot be proven and must be accepted on "faith" - that were used to develop the broad field of Euclidean Geometry.

    In the same way, religions are built upon a few 'postulates' (e.g., God exists, etc.), that are then used to develop religious doctrine.

    While separating philosophy, religion and science may be convenient for organizing educational units, it does not represent the true interconnected state of these elements.

  • Science and Religion
  • Posted by Larry , Asst. Academic Dean on August 31, 2007 at 10:15am EDT
  • Frizbane's essay is a superb commentary. He rightly rejects the dichotomous thinking that pitches one thing (religion, say) against another (be it science or philosophy). Unfortunately, even a writer as gifted as Friz can lose his way under the influence of discursive enthusiasm (otherwise known as trying to end an argument on an impressive note). Sorry to say we do not worship data, as he asserts, but treat it carefully and logically. A datum is always already an interpretation, and thus it needs to be judiciously understood and put to work. Neither--and this is a larger problem with scientific writing itself--do we reverence conjecture. The word "conjecture" has as its French/Latin root the sense of throwing something together. Anyone who needs an example of scientific conjecture can examine the so-called "junk DNA" debate for evidence of assumptions that were worshipped or reverenced or otherwise treated with less analytical caution than they deserved.

  • Posted by Chuck on August 31, 2007 at 10:15am EDT
  • Those with strongly held religious views will not debate "is vs isn't" questions about God or their beliefs because they refuse to change their beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence. They similarly will not change their views in the face of philosophical argument because they are not swayed by reason. For religious folks, the point of religion is faith and faith does not yield to anything requiring change in belief. The only reason religious people discuss religion is to strengthen their faith by asserting their beliefs. It is frustrating to talk to them and a waste of anyone's time, in my opinion.

  • Posted by Ben, MA English on August 31, 2007 at 11:00am EDT
  • If you think that scientists do not need faith to conduct their research, you need to read Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions."

    I have never heard an excellent proof that God does not exist (and any that are offered are not based on "science" but philosophy).

  • Posted by MB on August 31, 2007 at 11:00am EDT
  • I have great respect and affection for science, because I value the discipline it brings to the mind and the answers it offers for my insatiable curiousity. However, I also strongly believe in my faith and am tired of being belittled by intolerant individuals who can't stand the idea that anyone would actually be interested in reconciling the findings of science with the beliefs of their religion. For example, I think intelligent design is a very interesting development in our intellectual heritage. Is it so hard to believe that there are intelligent people that believe in both and are trying to grapple with the contradictions between the two? Why is that wrong?

  • Please, no neo-constructivism
  • Posted by biosciprof on August 31, 2007 at 11:15am EDT
  • I do not agree with Glen McGhee's attempt to reduce science to a neo-constructivist example.

    Whether or not we can with our current science be completely accurate in our description of, say, the biophysical properties of bacterial RNA polymerase does NOT mean that there are not fixed biophysical properties of this enzyme. Whether those facts are fully knowable by him, for example, does not change whether they are knowable facts.

    Of course science is performed by people, and of course there are disagreements. But this has nothing to do with the underlying reality of the physical world.

    This is a nonsense of edu-speak.

  • "Is" versus "ought."
  • Posted by Stanislaus Dundon , Professor Emeritus at California State University, Sacramento on August 31, 2007 at 12:20pm EDT
  • The "Is--ought" dichotomy will simply not work.Note that in mature religious teaching "oughts" follow from "is." If we are all equally children of a loving father, then we ought not to abuse one another. Religious wars were sins against this "ought." But atheists, who did most of the killing in the past century, had no such "is." Atheists and agnostics differ from religious people on the basis of an "is". Is there a divine designer or not? Evolution only occurs in the biological world. What about the amazing design of the physical world? See my "Undesigned Designer" at http://www.csus.edu/indiv/d/dundons/index.htm#papers

  • Sorry To Offend Your Sensibilities, K.T.
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 31, 2007 at 12:35pm EDT
  • Where did you ever get the idea I’m intolerant of fools. Indeed some of my best friends are fools.

    It’s just that I happen to believe there’s a place for them – actually many places – but being up on a stage pretending to be legitimate candidates for President of the United States is not one of them.

    When we look the other way in the face of ignorance – when we encounter gross stupidity and pretend nothing is amiss – we richly deserve what we get ... not that I would ever infer as much about our last few presidents.

    Really, K.T., just imagine your response to hearing someone say, “I don’t believe in the Pythagorean Theorem” ... or “I don’t believe in Newton’s Laws of Motion” ... or “I don’t believe in evolution.” If that someone were ten-years-old, you would kindly sit down with her and explain the principle as best you can. But when it’s a candidate for President of the United States, it’s embarrassing at the very least and, from my perspective, outrageously foolish. And pretending it either didn’t happen ... or doesn’t matter ... that’s almost as bad.

    No doubt you read Brownback’s outlandish New York Times op-ed piece explaining what was going through his mind the instant he heard the question. I can think of other uncomplimentary words we should shout at a man who expects us to believe that.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/opinion/31brownback.html?ex=1188705600&en=a64223b4667df310&ei=5070

    And poor John McCain ... conditioning his affirmative response to the evolution question by remarking “ ... I also believe when I hike the Grand Canyon and see a sunset, that the hand of God is there also.” Whew!

    I would ask “who are these guys?” But much more important is “Who were their K-12 and college science teachers?” ... and perhaps even more important than that, “What is the scientific background of the electorate to whom these guys feel compelled to pander?” About the latter, we at least know that only 40% believe in evolution.

    I’ve got a class in an hour, so I’d better have a drink and calm down.

  • Science and the "should" function
  • Posted by Alan Contreras on August 31, 2007 at 1:05pm EDT
  • Thanks to all who commented on my essay. I'm not sure if my own prose channeled the conversation in a direction I hadn't anticipated or if people just like to argue about their favorite topics, but allow me to restate a point that has been buried in the overwash of comment.

    As a culture, we seek a source for "should/ shouldn't" thinking. Science has no "should" function, therefore it can't argue "should" issues with religion. Many seek the "should" in religion; I, an atheist, argue that we should seek it in philosophy. Are there other places to seek it?

  • Experiences and thoughts...
  • Posted by John Contreras on August 31, 2007 at 1:10pm EDT
  • Thanks for the mention, Alan.
    Here is my commentary-grist for the mill of conversation and debate. My credentials include being father of three while spending over twenty years in the evangelical Christian mainstream. I eventually became disillusioned with their fear-based religious dogma and "graduated" to quote a friend of mine. I can tell all of you that for a great number of parents in this country it is very important that their children become indoctrinated at a very young age in the same closed minded beliefs that they hold. The majority of those parents can't afford to send their children to private schools or take the time away from income earning to home school their children so they end up in public schools where the culture war over science curriculum is bearing it's various fruits. I agree with Alan on two basic points: that science is not an effective counterpoint in that arena and that philosophy is generally absent. This is purely an observation from my life and experiences raising my three children in a number of different locations on the west coast of the US. I don't entirely agree with your point that religion is about should/shouldn't; my experience is that those should/shouldn't aspects (often the loudly proclaimed aspect of religion) are based on an is/isn't belief system that underlies the social-behavioral exhortations. The debate about whether the starting point for the religious is that "God is" or the cross "where God died" is a debate among the religious and irrelevant to the point that philosophy is a better debate opponent for religion than science has proved to be. All are valuable at all levels of education and all should be present; in my experience philosophy is not.
    Personally, I characterize Religion, Science, Government and many other institutions as Truth Vendors, those who seek to be the chosen contractor for informing the populace about "the way things are." At their best these institutions search their respective realms with integrity and offer the results to the masses without needing anyone else to validate their existence by believing them instead of another. At their worst, they squabble over portions of demographic turf like competing news networks, presenting only those findings that serve their agendas for gain of whatever commodity they value most; fame, wealth, power, etc. In reality most are somewhere in the middle most of the time. My desire is that as individuals and truth seekers of any stripe we would each become comfortable with appending "I might be mistaken" to our conclusions because in every arena of expoloring the truth we continually prove ourselves to be so.

  • is, ought
  • Posted by Angelo , Professor of Philosophy on August 31, 2007 at 1:20pm EDT
  • Questions about what we ought to do are within the domain of ethics, a branch of philosophy (not religion).
    Questions about what is the case are the domain of science, broadly construed (including exact sciences, mathematics, social sciences and some areas of philosophy).

    Now, of course, religious people will claim that religion tells them what is the case and what we ought to do, but, what authority do they have (surely not that of reason or experiment).

    Questions about the meaning of life are explored in works of art (including religious narratives) which elicit aesthetic responses (including religious experiences).

    Religion no longer has a unique role to play. It is incompetent to determine what is and what should be the case. While the issue of life's meaning remains within its domain, that issue is also explored through works of art.

  • T-bone Is Definitely Pulling Our Leg
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 31, 2007 at 1:50pm EDT
  • While T-bone is right that religion – let’s take Christianity for example – and mathematics are based on postulates that are unproved – and unprovable – that’s where the analogy ends.

    In mathematics, we almost don’t care about the abstract truth of the postulates ... certainly not universally and often not even in specific instances. What we try to do is build a logical structure on top of a very parsimonious set of independent statements. That’s the beauty of it.

    In Christianity, however, the truth of the postulates is what matters most. The “logical structure – and you may be sure that logic plays a very minimal role in the development of most systems of religious belief – is of little consequence. And parsimony? Forget it! In Christianity there are so many postulates it’s mind boggling ... and many of them are even contradictory. And when a need arises ... well, more postulates.

    That’s the beauty of faith. When, within a certain context, you need to believe the truth of something – or even two things that are contradictory -- faith always does the trick. It’s quite wonderful.

  • re: John and Alan
  • Posted by Glen McGhee at FHEAP on August 31, 2007 at 3:10pm EDT
  • Maybe John should read some Paul Tillich. ... He was both a theologian and philosopher at Harvard and U of Chicago for many years.

    John wrote: "Personally, I characterize Religion, Science, Government and many other institutions as Truth Vendors, those who seek to be the chosen contractor for informing the populace about “the way things are.” "

    Missing from this list of competitors for attention is philosophy. Existentialism in the 1940s, for example.Certainly postmodern social constructivism in the 1990s.

    "At their best these institutions search their respective realms with integrity and offer the results to the masses without needing anyone else to validate their existence by believing them instead of another."

    No. Hardly. This is certainly a prescription for irrelevance and extinction. No one does this and survives. Of those that DO, few survive for any length of time.

    "At their worst, they squabble over portions of demographic turf like competing news networks, presenting only those findings that serve their agendas for gain of whatever commodity they value most; fame, wealth, power, etc."

    Ah, yes -- note that this makes these *group conflicts* raw data to be mined by sociologists, who generate insights into the social networks involved and their contexts.(See link below)

    Contrary to what Alan says, not everyone is seeking answers to (which??) questions, and certainly not with equal intensity. The important question, then, is: who are these seekers, and how may they be characterized?

    This is a sociological question, not a philosophical one, but one that may be considered "scientific" in its own way.

  • Stupid Religious PhD student
  • Posted by Grad-and-dad on August 31, 2007 at 3:10pm EDT
  • I am sorry that so many of you have been wounded by the foolishness of "Christians."

    The only thing you really need to know is that Jesus was and is the only son of God, the Creator of the Universe, and that He did die, but that He also rose from the tomb, fully alive, and ascended into Heaven, and is coming back, apparently pretty soon.

    You can accpet that or reject that, but that does not change the truth about him. I looked it up. I studied it. I did not want to accept it from anyone else. A little logic and a little research can prove a lot of things we don't really want to know.

    So call me stupid if you must. If you are right, I have nothing to fear. After I am dead, I am dead. But if I am right, and there is a God and a Heaven and a Hell, and you reject the only one that can save you from Hell,...

    Oh, and by the way, that Evolution thing...Which takes more faith? Creation: An existing Being of higher power creates something a little lesser than himself OR Evolution: Nothing creates itself and grows into a complex universe?

  • Should/Shouldn't questions (
  • Posted by Marvin McConoughey on August 31, 2007 at 5:00pm EDT
  • Alan reasons that "Science has no 'should' function, therefore it can’t argue 'should' issues with religion. Many seek the 'should' in religion; I, an atheist, argue that we should seek it in philosophy. Are there other places to seek it?"

    Science addresses "should" type questions everyday. Should we ban the use of DDT? We can rely on a whim, mine or yours, or apply science. What does DDT do to plants, animals, and insects? To what extent? What are the long range implications? The questions may not always lend themselves to scientific resolution, but they can certainly be addressed scientifically. Even the emotional baggage that people bring to such issues can be examined using scientific methods.

  • The foolisness of religion
  • Posted by Richard Myers on August 31, 2007 at 5:05pm EDT
  • The Bible says that we Christians should expect to be ridiculed by the "wise" people of the world. Is says "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." And "The foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength."
    Concerning creation, science and religion ask and answer different questions. Theology can answer the "who" and "why" questions (even though science, especially cosmology, provides very strong evidence for a creator), and science can provide some answers to the "how" and "when" questions.
    Evolution is one of the "how" questions. There are too many different versions of evolution for one to provide a simple yes or no answer to "Do you believe in evolution?" Darwinian evolution, natural selection and chance, leaves too many questions unanswered. A God-directed evolution makes a lot more sense.

  • Science has no “should” function.
  • Posted by kgotthardt on August 31, 2007 at 5:10pm EDT
  • Of course science has a "should" function. Because of science, we know we SHOULD cut down on eating red meat--not doing so could result in heart disease. We SHOULD NOT try to conceive children via our relatives--doing so begets genetic defects. We SHOULD find alternate sources of fuel before we destroy our planet completely.

    The truly religious often take this application further with ideas like, "AIDS is God's way of saying homosexuality is sinful." But even if we believe this is scientific misapplication, human beings take "should" and "should nots" from science all the time.

    We can't help it. As children, we learn physics: once we start falling down the stairs, it's harder to stop. Therefore, we should be careful when we are on the stairs. There you go. Science in action that teaches us throughout our lives.

  • Hmmmm
  • Posted by mikeblizzle , Complex Coordinator at Emporia State University on August 31, 2007 at 10:10pm EDT
  • How interesting that both scientists and religious people alike present themselves as self-righteous. Both claim to be tolerant (as long as nobody disagrees). Perhaps this is why our students walk away from both.

    Is not faith simply trust in the unseen through the evidence of the visible?
    Is not science simply the discovery of what was always there which leads to theories about that which is unseen?

    I know - too simplistic, but we are taking ourselves way too seriously. And philosophy only leaves people in a state of questioning, where a lot of talking is done but action is rare.

    Science needs to do a self-check, and realize that it's becoming just as dogmatic and narrowminded as it's perceived enemy.

  • faithless
  • Posted by Kelly Aune on August 31, 2007 at 11:30pm EDT
  • Faith has no place in math or science. The weak attempt to argue that it does is motivated by a misunderstanding of how math or scientific reasoning is conducted or, worse, the manipulative and deceptive strategy of arguing that science and math are "religions" so as to claim that the state is already supporting religion in the classroom -- so why not support other religions?

    Postulates are not accepted as "true" based on faith. They are the starting point for an argument. There is a world of difference between claiming "X is true and is not open to question" and "Let's begin with the assumption that X is the case; what can be built from there?" In the latter instance, X may lose its usefulness at some point and be tossed out.

    The bigger problem as I see it is even having this conversation. To talk about religion and science in the same instance treats them somehow as equals and suggests that religion should have a seat at the table of those discussing issues of ontology and epistemology. Science needs to stop taking the bait. Let religion try to glom on to philosophy for a while.

  • In Response To MB, Grad-and-dad, and Richard Myers
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on September 1, 2007 at 2:10pm EDT
  • As a long-ago pre-ministerial student and a conservative Christian, I have been there, done that, and “felt” those feelings. So I am not one to criticize someone who is working through Christianity in an attempt to give meaning to life.

    In the other hand, there is a fairly high probability that the god-man Jesus Christ never existed ... except in the minds of some first- and second-century mystics ... the sort of men who would have been found peddling snake oil in nineteenth-century America.

    Were it not for Helena, the mother of Constantine I ... well, the rest is history. I imagine that if Paul Bunyan or Pecos Bill had their Constantines, we would today be reading political analyses with headlines like, “Is the Country Ready for it’s First Bunyanian President?”

    In any event, if you’re willing to challenge your faith that Jesus Christ did actually exist, had no biological father, was a man, was also one of three gods – or one of the three forms of one god – was alive, dead, and alive again, was lifted up into the sky, and then had his mother lifted up into the sky after her death ... I mean if that all makes perfect sense to you, then go to ...

    http://jesuspuzzle.org/

    scroll down to “Quick Assembly: Putting the Jesus Puzzle Together in 12 Easy Pieces” and enjoy the read.

    And, Professor Contreras, you wrote, “When we introduce more religious studies into our K-12 schools, as we must if people are ever to understand each other’s lives, the family of learning into which they must go also contains philosophy. It is this conversation, between the varieties of religious outlooks and their moral conclusions, and the same questions discussed by major philosophers, that needs to happen.” Are you suggesting the old, worn-out comparative religions courses couched in the language of philosophy? Or are we going to entertain frontal attacks on the nature of religion, based on history, science, and logical consistency ... oh yes, and within a philosophical context?

    If the latter, good luck on getting that into a curriculum “appropriate” for youngsters, 60% of whose parents do not believe in evolution. I think it’s time for the cafeteria Christians to come out of the woodworks to fulfill their responsibilities as apologists for their faith. Where is C. S. Lewis when we need him?

  • For Richard Myers
  • Posted by John Contreras on September 1, 2007 at 4:55pm EDT
  • Richard, I appreciate your comments and they remind me of a Richard Myers that I knew in the late 70's in Salt Lake City; were you there during those years?

    john@johncontreras.net

  • Posted by Dennis Ruhl on September 2, 2007 at 1:45pm EDT
  • Contreras's thoughts on Christian education are definitely on record. In the case of Oregon vs Melinda Benton he was judged as denying the woman's constitution rights by demanding that she disclaim her Bob Jones University degree as unaccredited. Bob Jones U, at that point, had not sought accreditation for reasons of separation of church and state and was never questioned about academic integrity.

    Many, and I mean tens of millions, of Christians do not see a gross distinction between science and religion. They hold what is called a Christian World View. All aspects of life and belief are viewed in a context compatible with Biblical teaching.

    Should Christianity be taught in science classes. No. Just show a suitable level of respect. It is not the government's job to promote religion and it has been consistently held that it is not the government's job to hinder its free practice.

    In the latest case of Texas vs Tyndale Seminary the Texas Supreme Court held that the government had no business judging religious education.

  • Religion, Science, or Philosophy
  • Posted by FK, philosophy teacher on September 2, 2007 at 7:55pm EDT
  • Interesting debate. I do not approach science, religion, or philosophy here as mere disciplines but as ways of making sense of the world. I do not think that the dichotomy of descriptive vs. prescriptive is as important as the author believes; there are always prescriptive elements in descriptions, and vice versa. The difference may be in the degree of privileging one mode over the other.

    Science (in its "modern" manifestations) is a way of making sense of the world that privileges generalized and reproducible affirmations and that builds on systematic categories founded on a belief in determinacy (among other beliefs, such as causality).

    Religion (in its monotheistic manifestations) is a way of making sense of the world that privileges generalized unverifiable affirmations founded on a belief in teleolgoy and transcendence (among other beliefs, scuh as causality).

    Philosophy is concerned (or should be; as you see the descriptive always already carries the prescriptive) with the foundations upon which ways of making sense of the world flourish (expressed in heuristic devices such as being and becoming; determinacy and indeterminacy; unity and plurality; etc.). Philosophy then seriously engages with the foundations of ways of making sense of the world; at its best, it assesses, critiques, undermines and does so in order to allow for change and transformation in epistemological systems; at its worst, it provides alternative foundations for modes of making sense of the world.

    As limited as this brief "description" may be, it points to a certain parallelism between science and religion that may not exist with philosophy as a critical (or deconstructive or creative) method. Science develops truths about determinate and "tangible" phenomena while Religion develops truths about determinate and "intangible" phenomena. Philosophy develops truths about determinacy and/or tangibility (as well as about teleology, causality, etc.) by pointing to the limitations of modes of analyses and by calling for a "going beyond" scientific and religious ways of thinking. Philosophy does/should constantly reassess ways of thinking enamored with fixed "truths"--that tend to be used politically to enforce a variety of "realities."

    The debate should not be about science and religion, but about the role of philosophy today--or its absence from our social and political realms.

  • Three Things ...
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on September 3, 2007 at 10:55am EDT
  • First, I always appreciate those like Richard Myers who “prove” this or that by quoting the Bible.

    The Bible I read with some regularity tells me that God – or is it Jesus? ... I can’t keep those guys straight – “is the same yesterday, today, and forever” (in Hebrews). In that same tome (in Leviticus), God promises that those of us who eat anything that lives in the sea that has no fins or scales – including shrimp, scallops, clams, lobsters, and my all-time favorite, Alaskan king crabs – do so at the risk of eternal damnation.

    And eating a cloven-hoofed animal that is anatomically unable to chew its cud – hmmm, I think I’ll pass on those baby-back ribs – will assure you a future that’s hotter than Dave’s Insanity. That’s not to mention eating your steak rare or wearing clothes made of two different materials. According to Leviticus, you’ll burn in Hell for those offenses too.

    And what does this have to do with science and evolution? Well check out this little blurb ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWg8ZLKcuys&mode=related&search=

    and you’ll understand why, in addition to the huge number of Americans who do not believe in evolution, an additional 135 million of us believe the Universe is less than 10,000 years old. Talk about an educational, evidential, and scientific scandal of major proportions. Whew!

    Second, Myers’ comment that “There are too many different versions of evolution for one to provide a simple yes or no answer to ‘Do you believe in evolution?’” is pure nonsense. But I’ll let Stephen Jay Gould explain that to him ...

    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

    Finally his remark, “A God-directed evolution makes a lot more sense” almost leaves me speechless. If statements like that do not demonstrate our desperate need for Manley’s Church, I don’t know what will.

    I wonder, was Myers referring to Brahma? ... to Zeus? ... to Yahweh? ... to Odin? Oh my, it’s too much for me. As much as I hate to send someone to Wikipedia, maybe Myers can sort through this list of well over a thousand competing deities and let me know which one(s) were responsible for all of this direction.

  • Turning to the same page
  • Posted by Abbott Katz on September 3, 2007 at 10:55am EDT
  • The profusion of posts to this piece suggests that a nerve somewhere has been struck. Apart from the collective ardor evinced here for (or against) the theme, one wonders how many sectarians know that much about science -- and how many scientists truly know that much about religion. I'm reminded of a conference held some time ago on the possible interface of science and religion, at which a noted physicist stated he didn't know terribly much about the latter, but that he did know that people should treat each other equitably and with respect. Whereupon a rabbi in attendance, poised with a rather incisive wit, replied: I don't know much about physics, but I do know: Twinkle Twinkle little star/How I wonder what you are. The message: Sometimes some homework about the other side is in order.

  • The Truth is out there!
  • Posted by Grad-and-dad on September 4, 2007 at 2:40pm EDT
  • Frizbane Manley, and anyone else who is interested,

    Pick up a copy of "More than a Carpenter," or "Christianity: Hoax or History?" both by Josh McDowell. They are small, inexpensive, easy to read booklets that begin the exploration of the historical proofs of the life and divinty of Jesus.

    I am not a self-righteous person. I am a pretty good sinner, truthfully. But I know what I believe and why I believe it. And you are right, religion is often crazy. A relationship, however, with a living God is great! It is not a crutch, or a worldview, but more than you can know until you experience it for yourself.

    I hope you will lay aside some of that anger and open yourself up to some truth. I will take some time tonight and pray for you, specifically, Mr. Manley. I hope that God reveals Himself to you sometime soon. When He does, you will have a choice to make. I will pray that you make the right choice.

    May God Bless you,

    Grad-and-dad

  • Response To Grad-and-dad
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on September 5, 2007 at 3:05am EDT
  • Two things ...

    First, where did you ever get the idea I am angry? I’m about as laid back as they come. I’ll bet I look on the humorous side of issues more often than anyone who regularly posts responses to IHE articles and essays.

    Second, I appreciate your praying for me. Wow, that’s great. But I must tell you that before the age of 21, I was born again at least three times. I have had those wonderful God-given chills running up and down my spine many times. It might be fun, but I’m afraid I’ve been saved once – well maybe six times – too often already.

    Now back to why Alan Contreras’ recommendations are pretty outlandish.

  • I'll Take His Place
  • Posted by Dick McMullen on September 6, 2007 at 1:20pm EDT
  • >> I will take some time tonight and pray for you, specifically, Mr. Manley. I hope that God reveals Himself to you sometime soon. When He does, you will have a choice to make. I will pray that you make the right choice.

    Since Mr. Manley has declined your offer, I'll stand in for him! I've been waiting since I was 13 for God to reveal himself. (That was in 1971.)

    :-)

  • Prayer for you both :-)
  • Posted by Grad-and-dad on September 6, 2007 at 6:55pm EDT
  • Frizbane and Dick,

    First, Mr. McMullen, I will gladly pray for you. I hope that God reveals himself to you clearly and soon, and I pray for peace and well being in your life. May God bless you and keep you safe until you know his truth.

    Mr. Manley, please take no offense. I possibly read passion on the topic as anger. I read your responses in here all the time and I know you are a very intelligent and articulate person. I enjoy your comments most of the time.

    On the other hand, I, too, have felt the chills and the thrills of the Charismaniacs and nodded asleep in extreme boredom with the Baptists (no offense to any church-goers in here :-). I currently have given up on "church" as a means for anything other than some occassional "food, fun, and fellowship" and find most Christians that I know to be...well,...sinners, like me!

    I do know this. Just because I do or don't FEEL God sometimes, or my prayers are or are not answered the way I want them to be, does not mean God is not real. The world does not revolve around me (or you,...sorry :-)

    Think about it. Did all we know come from nothing? Is there really nothing outside of the Human Race? If so, what, then, is the point of our existence?

    Look at Jesus, himself. There is ample historical proof that the man, Jesus, lived and died. There is ample proof that many of his followers were killed, martyred, for a belief. There must have been something to it. The proof is that there is an empty grave, no bones about it ;-) and that there is no evidence of the body of Jesus of Nazareth anywhere! Over 500 people saw Jesus alive and walking around AFTER the crucifixion! More than 40 saw his ascension into Heaven. There is more historical evidence to prove that Jesus was and did all that the Bible claims than any other historical figure.

    So, if he was real, you have to decide, was he a liar? He said he was the only son of God and the only way to the Father.

    Was he a lunatic? Was he just a crazy self-centered prophet, an egomaniac who loved attention? Do you think he would have gone through the whole cricifixion thing for attention?

    Or was he Lord? Was he who he said he was? The Son of God, the sacrifice for the sins of the human race. I mean, we do sin, don't you think?

    My apologies if I offended you or anyone else in here. I do, though, believe He is real, and it is not an empty-headed, mom-and-dad-were-Chrstians-so-I-am belief. It is researched, read, tested and yes, sometimes, felt.

    May God Bless you richly and may He reveal himself to you in a deep and personal, unshakable way. I will be praying for you.

    Grad-and-dad.

  • I'll take his place
  • Posted by Grad-and-dad on September 6, 2007 at 6:55pm EDT
  • Wow, Mr. McMullen,

    That is exactly what Jesus said when he looked at you and saw that the judgment for your sins was death, "I'll take his place." And, believe it or not, He did! :-)

    Grad-and-dad

  • Ok, We've Proven His Point
  • Posted by Dick McMullen on September 7, 2007 at 11:00am EDT
  • This revealing thread is a adequate example of hollering across Contreras' DNA stairway and never connecting.

    My dear Grad-and-dad, you have an important lesson to learn about honesty. When you have learned to view your beliefs and their attendant difficulties from the perspective of another person who finds faith difficult, then you will have earned the right to continue this conversation.

    The purpose of philosophy is to find universal common ground to this kind of conversation. When you are finally ready you will find many willing conversants welcoming you into our common search. Until then, your confident assertions will continue to be met with a humorous demurral.

  • Critically Thinking
  • Posted by Kelly Knight on September 7, 2007 at 6:35pm EDT
  • Rather than religion or philosophy as a discussion or topic in school, perhaps the process of critical thinking would be better suited to our youth. That way young people can think on their own, come to their own conclusions, and take their own decisions on which philosophical trail to tread, which religious sacrament to worship, or which scientific theory to prostrate before.

  • On Being Waaaay Too Picky About Vocabulary
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on September 8, 2007 at 6:45am EDT
  • Kelly, I’m hoping against hope that we’re on the same side of this issue, but I cannot read anything these days that includes the phrase “critical thinking” without getting a splitting headache.

    For starters, I must tell you that I have spent my professional lifetime – that’s going on 50 years now — teaching mathematics (including logic), probability and statistics, social methodology. management science, operations management, and the quality sciences to mathematicians, statisticians, social scientists of every stripe, business students, education students, pre-med students, engineers ... I’m surely leaving someone out.

    That said, “critical thinking” is a meaningless phrase – nay, a mindless phrase — commonly used by individuals who (1) would be hard-pressed to exhibit their command of it and (2) could not possibly provide us with a meaningful definition if we gave them the entire afternoon to do so.

    I was teaching at a business school a few years ago in which one of the “flavors of the month” (that’s what business schools are all about) was critical thinking. They asked me to design, develop, and teach an undergraduate course devoted to that topic. I freely admitted I had no idea what critical thinking was all about, but since everyone in the room not only knew everything there was to know about CT – that’s what they called it — and could also, at my request, reach into their billfolds and purses and pull out their membership cards in the American Society of Critical Thinkers, they simply refused to accept my acknowledgment of ignorance. I promised to look into it.

    Immediately, I went to my office, got on-line, and ordered every book on the face of the earth with “critical thinking” in the title (or sub-title). At the end of a month, I concluded that the books were written by individuals who knew very, very little about symbolic logic, the foundations of mathematics, finite math, algorithms, basic probability and statistics ... not even social methodology or rhetoric ... and, of course, there was in those books a complete absence of anything that might encourage the reader to sit in front of a computer.

    The books were nothing but the most pathetic presentations of very elementary logic, mathematics, and statistics – pretty much at the level that any 9th grade student with a competent teacher could master in a month or so – and with remarkably weak attempts to marry the “theory” to some sort of substance.

    In the process of trying to match my colleagues’ knowledge of “critical thinking” I concluded that it is interesting – and more than a little revealing – that there are no courses in “critical thinking” taught in departments of mathematics, statistics, physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, etc.

    Were it not for the fact that so many students who get so-called EDUCATIONS – and isn’t that laughable — at colleges and universities in the United States walk away quite ignorant of anything that smacks of even elementary mathematics, symbolic logic, or statistics, this obnoxious phrase (critical thinking) would never have seen the light of day.

    Alas, I think you can count on the fact that there will be special concentrations in “critical thinking” all over the academic landscape within the next decade. It’s completely consistent with the objectives of “dumbing down America” ... and it’s intellectually shameful!

    I could say more, but, frankly, my head is beginning to hurt. “Critical thinking” indeed!

  • critical thinking
  • Posted by dorothy on September 8, 2007 at 6:45am EDT
  • I'm not sure this thread is still "live" but I would like to remind the last poster that critical thinking and logic are part of any decent education in philosophy.

  • For Dorothy
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on September 8, 2007 at 6:35pm EDT
  • Thanks, Dorothy, for making my point.

  • Posted by daniel , check this out on September 17, 2007 at 6:30pm EDT
  • Life can't exist with out science nor can life exist with out
    religion. When I look at the world, the details of creation, I
    certainly know that there is something greater than ourselves; However
    i know that life explains some science and religion, the controversial
    side of this particular issue is that sometimes religion can't exist
    with science nor can science exit with religion. It is then when the
    battle becomes philosophical a spiritual search i like to call it.
    I agree with article in the sense that religion and science take
    different roads. However
    I can't avoid noticing the favoritism the article shows for science ;
    therefore I can't rely in everything is said. Is important to consider
    that a lot of emotion is involved with the writing.

  • frizbane Manley
  • Posted by James Sparks , professor at College of Mt. Saint Vincent on September 27, 2007 at 4:00am EDT
  • It is one of life's delicious little pleasures to stumble upon a litany of reactions to a short,poorly written and slightly self-conscious article about philosophy,religion and science in the elementary schools and find a lone voice that is articulate,highly intelligent, and obviously well read in more than one discipline.Frisbane Manley comes across as confident with no self-righteousness because his reasoning doesn't need any supernatural props.From reading and rereading his clear and academically restained responses to so much ignorance and pontificating I would gladly welcome him into the charmed company of Dan Dennett and Richard Dawkins.I would hope people in this important debate read these authors who are not afraid to demystify the cliches abundant in religion,science,and philosophy.