Nice piece and pamphlet but the deemphasis of the Bachelor’s degree might become a bottom-up rather than top-down process, just as the music revolution was. Young men in particular are drifting away from higher education but they remain a crucial resource. To capture their talents society will have to look past credentials in favor of skills and ability. The just-in-time knowledge available us through electronic media makes this possible and perhaps an improvement on the present focus on seat time served. One of your other themes, battling the Matthew effect: ‘For Williams College that hath, shall be given: and from Bunker Hill Community College shall be taken even that which it hath.’ will require a more concerted effort.

No Paine No Gain, at 9:30 am EDT on May 13, 2008

I suppose I need more details as to what, exactly, constitutes the dividing line between ” an Ivy League school, Stanford, Duke, Williams, Amherst, Grinnell, or the flagship state universities,” in which presumably Wick Sloane thinks an undergraduate degree is still worth having, and the institutions in which “millions [are] shut out".

With the former admission in place, it’s hard to avoid seeing the argument as: “Some Bachelor’s degrees aren’t worth the time and money; therefore, we should get rid of the entire practice.”

If the argument is supposed to be that most or virtually all undergraduate degrees aren’t worth having — not for the students, and not for the USA — then we’d need an actual argument for this conclusion. Personally I doubt the prospects of making a persuasive case that, for example, what America should have had over the past eight years was still fewer people taking broadening college curricula, and still more people having their attitudes and perspectives set by workplace dynamics, hanging out in residence, and watching TV.

Such an argument might exist, of course. But we haven’t seen any trace of it yet. The data that Wick Sloane presents seems to speak more in favor of a more rationalized public education system that seeks to lighten the burden for parents and students by distributing costs and seeking economies of scale where possible.

Tim Kenyon, Associate Professor of Philosophy at University of Waterloo, at 9:50 am EDT on May 13, 2008

Not just the Bachelors Degree

It is time for society to stop accepting the educational establishment’s stranglehold on credentials. People should have many ways in which to prove their competence for employment, not just through the hoop-jumping that is the only reason-to-be for higher education.

This doesn’t matter whether you want to be a high school teacher, a computer programmer, a paramedic, a lawyer, or a college professor. The question needs to be, “have you built the requisite knowledge base and skill set to do the job?” Not, “where’s that piece of paper with the seal on it?”

Higher education (education in general) seems to function with one primary mission in mind, preservation of the education system. Instead, as Wick Sloane suggests, it would serve society much better if it operated as an a la carte system offering students what they need.

Ira Socol, Michigan State University, at 11:50 am EDT on May 13, 2008

Now you’re talkin!

It’s exciting to see a Hechinger Fellow step outside a sole focus on community colleges to (hopefully) spark a broader dialogue on the role of undergraduate education in America. Kudos to Sloane for this provocative essay! I’m not sure just how I feel about the bachelor degree as a societal institution but Sloane has got me thinking, about the associate degree as well.

I am both a community college graduate and a private east coast university graduate. It’s hard for a fish to see water but Sloane is helping the cause. Keep up the good work.

Kevin Drumm, Comunity College President, at 2:10 pm EDT on May 13, 2008

Another quibble

It’s an overstatement to say that the texts were quite rare. The pecia system, in which the original text was separated into segments, and given out to students to be copied, dates back to the 13th century, and was sufficiently active that universities tried to limit the number of stationers producing them.

Lee J Rickard, at 2:10 pm EDT on May 13, 2008

Creative thinking about improvements to established higher education processes that will reduce costs without diluting quality is most welcome. But we must hope that any innovations will assure that students learn to read, think, and debate more responsibly than Mr. Sloane has in his column.

If Mr. Sloane had actually read Education Pays, the College Board publication that Mr. Miller “gutted,” he would see that in fact the report carefully points out that accounting for the fact that some of the higher earnings are many years in the future, the lifetime earnings premium is significantly lower than $1 million.

Mr. Sloane simply took Mr. Miller’s argument at face value and repeated it without checking it’s validity. I hope in the future he will be more careful.

Sandy Baum

Sandy Baum, Senior Policy Analyst at The College Board, at 2:30 pm EDT on May 13, 2008

An amusing opinion piece. I think that only a person who has never had to try and wortk their way through life without a university degree would so cavalierly dismiss its importance in the workforce. I’ve been on both sides of that divide and I assure you that my university credentials have been worth far more to me economically than the investment I have made in securing them. I cannot imagine that the situation has improved in the 15 years since I faced the wrong side of that chasm.

George Purcell, Ph.D. Student at University of Texas at Austin, at 6:30 pm EDT on May 13, 2008

I’ve been told for years now (mostly by my parents) that I’m never going to get anywhere without going and finishing a 4-year degree (with the implication that the need is urgent enough that I should drop everything to do so,) but to be honest, I’m not sure if getting one would really accomplish anything. I have a two year technical degree from a community college that I completed in 2004 (although it took several years of part-time classes,) with intent of transfering to a university. At the time, I ended up getting sidetracked by a good offer of employment that I couldn’t pass up, and those plans ended up on indefinite hold. Recently, I went back to look at what tuition would cost for the state university, and I found that within just four years, tuition costs have more than doubled at both the university and the community college.

By now, I have more than four years of professional experience in the field I am working in, and although I do feel that I could be doing better than I am, I’m just not convinced at this point that going to finish up a bachelor’s degree would do anything but put me back to where I am now, only this time with $75,000 in student loan debt to worry about.

Brian Lutz, at 6:30 pm EDT on May 13, 2008

education

Why do we spend 12 years bestowing a fourth grade education?

btenney, at 8:20 pm EDT on May 13, 2008

Systems we choose

This article interesting. Bt there is a more important statistic. Twenty five-percent or more of Americans have a bachelors degree. I am teaching in Asia. America gives a great deal of leeway to admission. That is especially true with community colleges. And yea many will not earn a bachelors degree. But that two year degree is better than nothing.

As an economist I would say having one in 4 of the adult population degreed (with at least a bachelors) is pretty good). Many nations wish they had that. This is the statistic you should look at.

I have a PhD and I have taught in America and in China. In China, there are absolutely no lazy students. In America you have all kinds and that is fine. I understand that. I like them all.

Beijing Meiguoren means Beijing American

In hina at all levles the admission requirement is much harder and they all finish their 2 year and 3 year diploma programs as well as bachelor degrees. Hey it is the programs setup a countyr picks. Do not moan about it. Even China’s PhD is liek that. 99 percent finish their PhDs. But it is very, very hard to get in. Chinese have limited resources and limited time and that’s the way the education system is set up.

And NO they do not all think alike. They do think think creatively. Look at the Forbidden City, largest palace in the world. There is so much creativity here. I have been here over 10 years. They are politie though and have to be with 4 times the poulation of the USA. You should come over some time. Paul

Beijing Meiguoren, Professor, at 4:55 am EDT on May 14, 2008

Start at the top or bottom?

I’ve read the pamphlet, which is a wonderful homage as well as an interesting piece.

That said, for the first half of it I really didn’t know whether it was about higher ed or about primary/secondary, and after reading the whole thing I’m afraid that it might have veered incorrectly.

The resource issues are very real, but a change to the tax policies which privilege endowments would be more than just educationally radical: it would obliterate a long tradition of non-profit independence that would have religious and social consequences. Not necessarily bad ones, but real ones.

On the other hand, since the vast majority of the primary/secondary education of students is still in state hands, we have an opportunity to experiment there with alternatives which could be extremely fruitful.

On the standard 4-year bachelor’s degree, I have very mixed feelings. For most people, the combination of general education and a major is a fairly good education, functional and effective. What we need, though is a greater openness to options, both within institutions and in creating new ones, which ignore balance in favor of something more like productive obsession.

Jonathan Dresner, at 3:35 pm EDT on May 14, 2008

Is a Bachelor’s degree really that worthless?

Speaking as someone who has clients from all walks of life, from people that never even got their diploma, to people with phds, I do not think the bachelor’s degree is obsolete.

You watch someone who does not have a degree or even a high school diploma try to get a job that pays more than $8-10 an hour in this country, and that person is very rare, and probably an entrepreneur to begin with. Very few well paying jobs are out there for people that do not have a degree. This is something that is impossible for anyone with a degree (including myself) to truly understand, because your options aren’t so limited. Even going to a non “flagship” school is better than no degree.

The problem with the way universities in this country are presently run though, is the fact that there is more emphasis on career than on obtaining an education. Maybe it is time for the US to take the lead of other countries and provide vocational programs for people that know the specific field they want to work in but are not interested in the time and money they have to invest in order to get a bachelor’s degree.

Education is what one makes out of it. If I was totally unconcerned about trying to get into law school when I was an undergrad, I could have easily made it through with very little studying. A lot of people DO do that.

The fact is, your are going to be more marketable to an employer with a degree than with no degree at all. But as someone else mentioned, not all college graduates are prime job candidates, but they made that extra step to become more qualified.

Part of the problem may be that many kids don’t understand how to best utilize their time in college to improve their prospects once they graduate.

At the same time, I think a degree has been devalued to an extent by emphasizing the importance of getting one to get employed, rather than emphasizing how a personal will benefit intellectually by receiving an education and a bachelor’s degree.

If someone is ONLY going for the purpose of improving their employment prospects, they may benefit better by getting a relevant certification for the field they want to have a career in, rather than going through 4 years of a university education, which requires taking classes in courses that don’t all fall into that field.

It is my understanding that Canada works this way. That a certification from a 2 or 3 year program provides the marketability that that person needs to succeed in their field. I do not think there would be a benefit, however to eliminating the bachelor’s degree because there is a benefit to obtaining one, whether or not it is as much of a benefit now as it was say 40 years ago.

Lesley, at 10:55 pm EDT on May 14, 2008

I forgot to mention that Worcester Polytechnic Institute has several other features to its bachelor program that differ from the standard college academic experience. There is a Major Qualifying Project and an Interactive Qualifying Project that each are the equivalent of at least three courses and are typically spread over three terms. The Humanities Sufficiency is a project equivalent to one course. Each of these projects gives students more experience with responsibility and real world subject matter.

There is also an optional Cooperative Education experience, which amounts to working as an engineering intern for roughly six months and then returning to school.

In the spirit of revising the standard 4-year bachelor program, I think WPI has set an excellent example. Learning and education are a critical part of growing up. Rather than arguing as to whether there should be 4-year bachelor degree programs, let’s look to how we can improve their relevance and benefit.

Stan, at 10:45 am EDT on May 17, 2008

Some people in my family have bachelor’s degrees. All of these people have what I term ‘professional’ jobs, that is, full-time jobs that are part of a career path, with benefits such as health care for themselves and their dependents, and stable and reasonable work schedules. Some of us have master’s degrees and one of us has an Ed.D. Some people in my family dropped out of college because they were unmotivated, and some people in my family did not go to college for various reasons. All of these people have what I term ‘non-professional’ jobs, which are not part of a career path (there is little or no way to advance, develop new skills, or get promoted), do not pay benefits such as health care, and require work during the evenings, weekends, and holidays, often without paying for any holidays. I have no doubt that higher education is a path to success. Incidentally, where are the colleges and what are the college majors that produce pierced children who only passed because they aced “1970’s Television 101″? I was a double major in the life sciences and took no ‘fluff’ classes in order to graduate a semester early. My husband is an engineer whose curriculum was already mapped out for him with a very few choices (American lit vs. European lit) so that he could graduate in four years. Where are the parents and the advisors to keep their students on track with the required classes?

Safety Person, at 12:45 pm EDT on August 6, 2008