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The Innumeracy of Intellectuals

August 4, 2008

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I know nothing about art or music.

OK, that's not entirely true -- I know a little bit here and there. I just have no systematic knowledge of art or music (by which I mean fine art and classical music). I don't know Beethoven from Bach, Renaissance from Romantics. I'm not even sure those are both art terms.

Despite the sterling reputation of the department, I never took an art history class when I was an undergraduate at Williams College, nor did I take any music classes. They weren't specifically required, and I was a physics major. My schedule was full of math and science classes, and I didn't feel I had time for six hours a week of looking at slides. It's a significant gap in my education.

Given my line of work, this is occasionally ... it doesn't rise to the level of a liability, but it's awkward. I'm a professor at a liberal arts college, putting me solidly in the "Intellectual" class, and there's a background assumption that anyone with as much education as I have will know something about history and philosophy and literature and art and classical music. I read enough to have literature covered, even if my knowledge is a little patchy, and I took enough classes in college to have a rough grasp of history and philosophy, but art and music are hopeless. When those subjects come up in conversation, I just smile and nod and change the topic as soon as possible. On those occasions when I'm forced to admit my ignorance (or, worse yet, the fact that I don't even like classical music), my colleagues tend to look a little sideways at me, and I can feel myself drop slightly in their estimation. Not knowing anything about those subjects makes me less of an Intellectual to most people in the academy.

I was reminded of this by a recent blog posting at Republic of T, which puts into stark relief what is missing from that list of background assumptions: math and science.

Intellectuals and academics are just assumed to have some background knowledge of the arts, and not knowing those things can count against you. Ignorance of math and science is no obstacle, though. I have seen tenured professors of the humanities say -- in public faculty discussions, no less -- "I'm just no good at math," without a trace of shame. There is absolutely no expectation that Intellectuals know even basic math.

Ignorance of math can even be a source of a perverse sort of pride-- the bit of the blog post that reminded me of this is a call-back to an earlier post in which he relates his troubles with math, and how he exploited a loophole in his college rules to graduate without passing algebra. To me that anecdote reads as more proud than shameful-- less "I'm not good at math" and more "I'm clever enough to circumvent the rules."

It's not entirely without shame, of course. In the paragraph immediately after the algebra anecdote, the author gets a little defensive:

Or is it worth considering that perhaps not everyone can "do" algebra, trig or calculus? Is it worth considering that perhaps there are even some smart people who aren't great at math and/or science?... [A]re we to force every peg, round or square, into that hole at the expense of forcing students, who may be gifted in other equally important subjects, to drop out after a long series of demoralizing failures?

This is the exact same chippiness I hear from physics majors who are annoyed at having to take liberal arts classes in order to graduate. The only difference is that students seeking to avoid math or science classes can expect to get a sympathetic hearing from much of the academy, where the grousing of physics majors is written off as whining by nerds who badly need to expand their narrow minds.

In fairness, it’s worth noting that some academics are against mandatory liberal arts instruction for science majors, and so are consistent in allowing the educated to avoid some subjects. But the avoidance of math and science is a common and accepted part of many core curricula, and this attitude gets my back up.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that I think the lack of respect for math and science is one of the largest unacknowledged problems in today's society. And it starts in the academy -- somehow, we have moved to a place where people can consider themselves educated while remaining ignorant of remarkably basic facts of math and science. If I admit an ignorance of art or music, I get sideways looks, but if I argue for taking a stronger line on math and science requirements, I'm being unreasonable. The arts are essential, but Math Is Hard, and I just need to accept that not everybody can handle it.

This has real consequences for society, and not just in the usual "without math, we won't be able to maintain our technical edge, and the Chinese will crush us in a few years" sense. You don't need to look past the front section of the paper. Our economy is teetering because people can't hack the math needed to understand how big a loan they can afford. We're not talking about vector calculus or analytical geometry here -- we're mired in an economic crisis because millions of our citizens can't do arithmetic. And that state of affairs has come about in no small part because the people running the academy these days have no personal appreciation of math, and thus no qualms about coddling innumeracy.

I'm not entirely sure what to do about it, alas. I half want to start calling bullshit on this -- to return the sideways looks when colleagues in the humanities and social sciences confess ignorance of science. I want to get in people's faces when they off-handedly dismiss math and science, in the same way that they get in people's faces for comments that hint at racial or gender insensitivity. I suspect that all this would accomplish is to get me a reputation as "that asshole who won't shut up about math," though, and people will stop inviting me to parties.

Sadly, I don't know what other solution there is. It simply should not be acceptable for people who are ignorant of math and science to consider themselves Intellectuals. Somehow, we need to move away from where we are and toward a place where confusing Darwin with Dawkins or Feynman with Faraday carries the same intellectual stigma as confusing Bach with Beethoven or Rembrandt with Reubens.

Chad Orzel is an associate professor of physics at Union College, in Schenectady, N.Y. This essay is adapted from a posting on his blog, Uncertain Principles. He is currently working on a book explaining quantum mechanics to a general audience -- through imaginary conversations with his dog.

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Comments on The Innumeracy of Intellectuals

  • Posted by Steve , Associate Professor on August 4, 2008 at 6:20am EDT
  • As an English Professor in Georgia, I too am sometimes astonished by this phenomemon on the very rare occasions when I see it, and I cannot account for it. No one should take pride in ignorance of basic facts about the way the world works. Still, without hard statistical data to back up this kind of claim, the piece has an elitist ring to it. How does one, for example, make the leap from Humanities professors celebrating their igorance of mathematics to not-so-clever people defaulting on mortgages they do not understand? I think the author undermines a potentially good point by overgeneralizing about what may just be a difference in ways of knowing about the world.

  • Posted by Wick Sloane on August 4, 2008 at 7:15am EDT
  • Chad --

    Good for you for asking this. You are correct on the immensity of the problem. I took all those art history and music courses and, worse, majored in English. Part of the answer may be in how you present and teach math and science.

    The introductory hard-science courses, especially chemistry and biology, have often/always the unspoken purpose of weeding out those who were not going to make it to pre-med success at a level to get into med school. As to math, how many algebra/geometry A students with D's in calculus do we need to see? Even a C algebra/geometry student can figure out, "If the A student gets a D in calculus, the C student will get...."

    I believe exactly what you are saying in your column. Where is the door in for the rest of us? I don't mean it has to be easy or watered down at all. Celebrate graphing calculators that can show the beauty of math. Be more exploration and adventure and less triathalon.

    Check out this great course by Rich Mueller at Berkeley, Physics for Future Presidents. http://muller.lbl.gov/teaching/Physics10/PffP.html

    And if you want us to understand physics, give us The Curve of Binding Energy by John McPhee. Not only did McPhee figure out how amazing nuclear energy can be, McPhee explained it all to me in a way that lets me explain it to someone else.

  • Posted by LM on August 4, 2008 at 8:20am EDT
  • Sorry, but as a language professor I've heard "I studied X in high school/college and I don't remember a thing" (fill in: French, Latin, German etc. for X) too often to feel sympathetic. We have too many students who come whining that they "can't learn languages" for me to feel sympathetic... and yes, I made it through three semesters of calculus!
    Not everyone will get A's in everything, but we can learn enough to have an idea about what the field of study does, and to be able to skim articles in the paper when something relevant to the field comes up; is that not the idea of liberal arts?

  • Just tip of iceberg?
  • Posted by L.L. on August 4, 2008 at 8:20am EDT
  • Well-stated, sir. In decades, students might have stayed silent, while some self-important "intellectual" would blather in factual error about topics they had no advanced knowledge of.

    Well, now, after all those bold calls to "give voice" -- students and others are more than willing to publicly point out the obvious factual errors of such "intellectuals."

    Those "intellectuals" might not like it. Well, too late now -- horse is out of barn and running down hallway.

    Pity. Facts may actually be needed to tell a good story.

    As for this -- " .. How does one, for example, make the leap from Humanities professors celebrating their igorance of mathematics to not-so-clever people defaulting on mortgages they do not understand?"

    Gee .. is that like ~10% of students, claiming they went private college student loan because they could not figure out the SFAS?

    Grandpa Bill, 88, farmer, has the answer any Harvard Law grad can understand:

    If you don't understand the contract, for God's sake, don't sign it. Get those who do. Like your parents.

  • The problem of "professionalism"
  • Posted by Steven S. Clark, PhD at UW on August 4, 2008 at 8:25am EDT
  • One relevant point is missing in this article--the professionalization of all knowledge. Given the number of undergrads competing for graduate slots needed to enter the professional world, the grab for grades, not a well rounded education is the goal.

    I am good in science and math, but not in languages. In High School, I took Spanis for three years--the first of which I earned an A, the next a B and the next a C. Being good in math, and understanding linear regression, I saw where this was going and was thrilled when the college I subsequently entered did not require any language courses for graduation.

    After all, seeing as how I was bound for either graduate or med school, I couldn't afford to have poor grades on my transcript, much less risk the chance of failing to graduate because I might not make it through the language requirement.

    So to, do science majors who need strong transcripts avoid history and philosophy because they know that, compared to history and philo majors, they likely will not get the best grades. So to, do poli sci majors, intent on going to law school, often avoid calculus.

    Why put yourself at a disadvantage when everyone else is padding their trascripts with courses they know they will do well in?

    For my own part, I greatly appreciate a broad education. Since college and graduate school, I have been able to educate myself in philosophy, even to the point of teaching bioethics courses. Now I am a freelance writer and consultant and value greatly my liberal education, much of which was done after the fact of college and where grades were not an issue.

    I regret that I didn't better appreciate a liberal education when I was 20.

    Steven S. Clark
    http://stevensclark.typepad.com/bioscience_biz/

  • Posted by William T on August 4, 2008 at 8:25am EDT
  • "Not good at math and science" is the same as saying not good at understanding how to apply logical reasoning and knowing how the physical world works.

    That said, I don't think humanities professors need to know how to solve differential equations. I understand that there are smart people who are much more inclined toward using verbal or other intelligences. But they should know some math and science basics and understand them completely.

    By the same token, as suggested in the article, science profs should know some basic things about history, literature, philosophy and the arts. And I can't truthfully say that I know all these basic things. But thanks for the nudge.

  • "Neither a borrower nor lender be"?
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 4, 2008 at 8:55am EDT
  • So THAT'S why we keep having bubbles, booms and busts: "Our economy is teetering because people can’t hack the math needed to understand how big a loan they can afford."

    You mean to tell me that the housing and loan boom, when the economy looked so good, was because people were arithmetically challenged? What about the other side of the equation?

    Moreover, layoffs and other policies conspired to reduce peoples' anticipated real income such that they discovered too late they'd taken on too much debt. That, too, is a factor. In short, we do not educate well for political savvy.

    So I'm not sure economic crises in general, or this one in particular, are reducible to victims' innumeracy alone. (Not sure it's just a matter of blaming victims.)

    A broader education can help citizens consider historical amnesia, cultural critique, or understanding of how inherently exploitive economic systems create too much fictitious capital--temporary illusions of prosperity.

    I do believe math and science and all the liberal arts, however, can indeed help us understand that, in Bill Moyers's words, "Humans are more than the sum of their material appetites."

  • over-generalization
  • Posted by Lee Furey on August 4, 2008 at 9:10am EDT
  • If ONLY the problem were professionalism. No, I don't think the problem, commenter #1, is that the writer over-generalizes. The problem is that he's right. We are unaccountably proud of all kinds of ignorant non-accomplishments. My little cousin says disdainfully, "I don't cook." My friend who has to have gum surgery actually said, "I'm just not a flosser" [!].

  • Innumeracy of Intellectuals
  • Posted by Conflicted Gemini on August 4, 2008 at 9:40am EDT
  • I think Wick Sloane hit the nail on the head. If all of us intellectuals would develop courses that are about the subject, as opposed to doing the subject, we would have better luck attracting our friends who are of different mental persuasions. While I majored in humanities and fine arts subjects, I have always been very interested in how science is done, the history of ideas, and stories of how mathematicians have contributed to the world (I love "NUMB3RS"). Still, though I can do math and science, I prefer not to be professionally engaged in those disciplines. In other words, I know enough about math and science to be interested and able to interpret the news, but I am not a proficient mathematician. So how about a "history of science" course, or a "How Math Helps Musicians" course? These would balance the "intro" courses in the arts and humanities that are designed for non-majors. In any case, one should not get a high school diploma without fundamental arithmetic, writing, and reading skills.

  • Let's do the math
  • Posted by L.L. on August 4, 2008 at 9:55am EDT
  • " .. So I’m not sure economic crises in general, or this one in particular, are reducible to victims’ innumeracy alone. (Not sure it’s just a matter of blaming victims.)"

    Have you done the math? How does someone who claims to make $60,000/year (unverified) and who really probably makes $28,000/year buy a $175,000 house? (Former neighbor).

    Democrats demand special terms for certain classes of people. Republicans agree. Most everyone (mortgage bankers, real estate agents, assessors) deceive (lie?) to each other. No one heeds "Wall Street Journal" op-eds, starting in 2004, of future crises/panics with Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac.

    Math rocks! For those who willing to do the hard work, that is.

    Again -- don't understand a contract? Do NOT sign it.

  • Humanities major who *is* ashamed of his lack of Math savvy.
  • Posted by John Ronald , Librarian I at Texas Woman's University on August 4, 2008 at 10:15am EDT
  • I will admit I take no pride in my lack of Mathematical savvy; I'm ashamed of it. All through graduate school the first time around I had an inferiority complex whenever I was around my colleagues in the natural sciences and mathematical fields. I was the lone humanities person (German studies) in the social crowd I came to hang out with. But when I would hear my molecular biology grad student friends pontificate on current events and politics, their opinions struck me as so ignorant, their lack of historical understanding so profound, that I found some newfound pride in my own disciplines, that yes, what I was doing was a legitimate field of knowledge, too.

    In my last year as an undergrad, I took as my last required math class an Advanced Business Pre-Cal class...I did surprisingly well; the last part of the course dealt with Matrices and for whatever reason, I *got* it in ways I had never gotten it before, and on our final exam I actually scored a 100%. This was literally the first "A" on a Math test I had *EVER* gotten. I still have it saved among my personal papers as a memento.
    I was actually sad that this was my last math class, just as I was begining to understand it.

    I did have to face the math beast one last time in Library school, taking a "Research Methods" class, dealing with Statistics. I don't mind telling you the class really kicked me hard. I had to take an "incomplete" in the course because I just wasn't getting it. I called on all my past tutors but none were available to help. So I marched off to the library and checked out numerous books and videos and devoted entire days to doing nothing but studying statistics and working sample problems. I turned in my remaining assignments and notified my instructor that I was ready for the final. I took the final exam, aced it, and ended up with an "-A" for the course. This had been a required course for my MLS, so I guess that spurred my determination, and it was my last great hurrah in Math. Between my MA and my MLS, I did sometimes check out from the library educational videos on how to prepare for the Math Sections of the SAT and GRE, as a refresher, just to see how much I could remember, and re-learn. And I do have a healthy respect for math, even watch with rapt attention such things as NOVA specials on mathematical conundrums, etc.

    But I confess, I'm tired...I haven't checked out a mathematics educational video in years, though I am sometimes tempted by Teaching Company titles purporting to explain math to non-math majors. I do think that success in math has as much to do with how one is taught, i.e. quality of one's teachers, as it does with innate talent.
    These are often combined with great success, and just as often, into a perfect storm of failure (bad teaching + lack of mathematical insight), true for most of my educational career. I also was hobbled early on from a personal childhood psychological resistance to brute rote learning, particularly of the basic math facts such that I still don't have memorized the complete 12x12 multiplication table and have to crunch the (to me) more complicated calcuations by hand, which is acutely embarassing, and has cast a long shadow over my whole mathematical experience.

    I was struck recently reading a passage in a book from geologist Kenneth S. Deffeyes where he admits to being "very slow" at computational math. Made me feel not quite so bad.

    Although with the current state of the economy I am pessimistic about the prospects of a happy, leisurely retirement, if I am able to one day retire and be freed of the obligation to work, I should perhaps like to devote myself once again to re-learning mathematics. I did well in High School Geometry, and I rather liked Trig, limited though my exposure was. I always stunk at Algebra, but freed from the worry of getting good grades, maybe at last I could learn it properly someday. I also really extremely enjoyed High School chemistry, especially balancing equations, etc. I understood Chemistry better than any of my classmates and was always busting the curve (I was a high school senior in a class full of mostly juniors and sophomores). But I shied away from taking university-level Chemistry at my alma mater, Texas A&M, a well known engineering school. I feared it would be too hard and that I would blow my GPA. It was the road not taken--who knows, maybe I had it in me to be a gifted chemist. But I also have a natural affinity for foreign languages, got to study abroad in Germany for a year (and about a month in Russia); I still speak/read German at near-native fluency, my Russian has dropped from Intermediate to High Beginner, and my Spanish from high intermediate to low intermediate. But I still love Foreign language study and if I didn't have to work full time would devote myself more fully to maintaining and exanding my knowledge of them and the related cultures, histories, and literatures of these languages.

    I have so many diverse interests and only one life to live. So instead I chose librarianship, where it pays to know a little bit of everything. I wish I did know more mathematics than I do, but it is not for lack of trying.

  • Posted by PhilosopherP on August 4, 2008 at 10:30am EDT
  • I don't think it is acceptable to be AS ignorant of math and science as physics majors generally would like to be of the humanities.

    In my experience, situations in which liberal arts faculty will say 'I'm just not good at math/science" are situations in which the math or science involved is pretty involved. These folks can figure out how to balance their checkbooks and they know basic principles of physics, chemistry etc -- because they survive in the world. They just can't do the advanced stuff the physics major does -- and I think that is ok. In order to make up this knowledge gap, they'd need to go back and take a series of math and science classes.

    By contrast, the level of knowledge of the humanities expected of a well educated person can be delivered in a freshman level course, or maybe two.

  • Posted by aegis on August 4, 2008 at 10:30am EDT
  • For those with longer memories, Orzel's arguments sounds like a replay of the Snow/Leavis "Two Cultures" debate of the early 1960s.
    aegis

  • Yawn
  • Posted by Christine Sell on August 4, 2008 at 10:45am EDT
  • Tiresome. Listening to professionals criticize each other for not being proficient in areas that are not their own is like listening to siblings squabble over who is Mom's favorite. Surely, there are more worthy topics for all of us to explore than this. And please don't peg this as a shallow response - it is as deep as the article. "Intellectuals" in the US need to spend more time worrying about and developing ways in which to reach and teach those younger than themselves and less time pointing fingers at each other. Let's move on.

  • Since When Does Education Begin and End with College?
  • Posted by CB in Chicago on August 4, 2008 at 11:05am EDT
  • I may not understand the problem here. As an undergraduate, I took only one science class and no math courses--not because they didn't interest me, but because there were so many choices in my major (literature) and minor (philosophy) that did--and because I took four years of math and four years of science in high school--and most people who get to college have taken at least three years of each in HS, so can hardly be completely ignorant.

    And what about all the terrific continuing education courses open to anyone with an interest? And what about all the fascinating and extremely readable science books and articles that are out there? The Tuesday NY Times Science section is an education in itself.

    In addition, I find that the math and science academics I know are more than willing to share their excitement and love of their subject in ways that others can understand.

    So, what is the problem? Have a few people created such a mystique around their subjects that others are scared off? Do a few people so lack intellectual curiousity that they would rather hide their shame behind a false pride in their lack of knowledge than bother to go out and learn a little? Or maybe I've just limited myself to friends and colleagues who see every gap in their own knowledge as an opportunity to learn. Am I such a pollyanna? Or do others share my experience?

  • Look to thyself
  • Posted by Cranky Old Prof on August 4, 2008 at 11:25am EDT
  • This might have been more interesting if it had been written by someone who thought that remedying his own educational lacunae was at least as worthy an approach as sheepishly admitting it and then immediately attempting to cover-up by getting all self-righteous on those of the "other side."

  • Deregulation
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 4, 2008 at 11:25am EDT
  • "How does someone who claims to make $60,000/year (unverified) and who really probably makes $28,000/year buy a $175,000 house? (Former neighbor)."

    The key to your objection to my post is the parenthetical "(unverified)".

    Things looked good before, say, 2004 when what Milton Friedman himself called "externalities" in business dealings appeared to benefit the economy as a whole. But as capitalism is an inherently exploitive mode of production, deregulation allowed loan sharks to offer PREDATORY contracts in the first place, then take their commissions and run.

    Neither you nor I were in on the CONTRACTUAL decisions where sellers targeted susceptible borrowers and borrowers lied (or were encouraged to lie), miscalculated, were naive, suffered other financial setbacks, had their jobs outsourced, or got sold a bill of goods: now we're all suffering a negative externality from the lack of regulation.

    Regulation slows rapid, short term growth--and it's a good thing, too.

    Laying all blame on individual borrowers is to distract from the bigger culprit: policy perpetrated by the Greed Head Elites.

  • Intellectual Lazyness of Humanities "Professors"
  • Posted by mike on August 4, 2008 at 11:35am EDT
  • The fact is, Humanities, as taught today, requires no rigorous thought, no logic, no mental abilities. Just "attitude" and the inclination and ability to write BS with footnotes. Add onto that the PC garbage and you have entire departments filled with intellectual wannabes with tenure (or not). There is a huge gap between that and math/science, where answers must be proven - on the board or in the lab. Departments that actually make a postive contribution to people's lives. No wonder the "humanities" wannabes are jealous and defened their fragile egos by "being proud" of their ingnorance.

  • Posted by Lee J Rickard on August 4, 2008 at 12:10pm EDT
  • I think that part of the problem is that math and science are not taught as liberal arts. Rather, they are taught as practical arts. If their value is only identified with their utility, then it is reasonable for those who don't 'need' them to pass them by.

    If the math/science courses for nonmajors were taught as fields of intellectual endeavor pure and simple, they might be better fit in to the plan of liberal education.

  • Arrogance
  • Posted by Elizabeth on August 4, 2008 at 12:25pm EDT
  • As a humanities major and writer/editor by profession, I have withstood the sneering disdain of research scientists who learn I took no math beyond solid geometry and trig in high school. "If I knew as little about English as most people do about math, I wouldn't get very far in life," is a typical putdown.

    Listen up, smartypants(es): I am adept at all the math I have ever needed in 50+ decades of living. Beyond the basics of arithmetic, some rudimentary geometry applications, and how to calculate fractions and percentages, I have not found any use for the rest of the math I took in school. I do acknowledge and respect its beauty.

    But English? Um, yes; in the U.S., we do need to master English and reading/writing to thrive.

    So, mathematical snobs of the academy, keep your egos in your pants and your smart remarks to yourselves, and accept that only a fraction (heh) of the people in this world care or *need* to know the higher mathematics and physics that feed your soul.

  • Thank You Lee Rickard!
  • Posted by Bob on August 4, 2008 at 1:05pm EDT
  • As someone who obtained lousy math grades through Jr. and Sr. High School, I was someone who thought that I was a failure at math.

    But then, I got to college and got some tutering and made it through Statistics, algebra, geometry and some logic and did passing well with it.. I never did calculus or trig, but then I have never needed it.

    As Lee points out math is taught for its utility, which makes it okay to teach to the kids who can "utilize" it, and ignore those that struggle a bit.

    I now work with numbers all day.

    The author of the article is simply making an argument for rounding ourselves a bit. I agree, but lets not confuse elementary/jr/sr HS math (which is what the majority of the country uses on a day to day basis to balance checkbooks, etc.) with college math.

    Lets not overstate the issue.

  • Posted by RW on August 4, 2008 at 1:05pm EDT
  • I agree! I am a recovering math-o-phobe. Back in the 60's, at a major university, in a math course for elementary school teachers, I recall raising my hand to ask how the person at the board writing his proof of a theorm moved from (his) statement one to statement two. My math professor (a woman) said "Any stupid idiot...." and I never heard another word she said. I also knew, officially I was a stupid idiot.
    I have heard numerous other folks relate similar stories. There is research that indicates students placed in remedial math classes that are paired with a counseling component do better than students in remedial math classes alone.

    My point is that perhaps math professors should look at HOW they teach their subject. Part of the problem for folks who are quasi-proud of having inumeracy is that there is understanding for having traversed a painful, or shameful, or even rude learning environment.

    My husband is a math person--and he has helped me learn all kinds of math that I knew I could never learn because "I was just a stupid idiot."

  • Posted by mihan on August 4, 2008 at 1:20pm EDT
  • "By contrast, the level of knowledge of the humanities expected of a well educated person can be delivered in a freshman level course, or maybe two."

    Ummm... no. How many humanities professors would enjoy talk to a (science) colleague at the level of a first-year college student? By contrast, how many humanities professors understand the basics of genetics, the laws of motion, or stoichiometry (all covered in first-year science classes)?

    The author's basic point is valid: it is socially acceptable to be innumerate in the academy, but not "culturally" illiterate. It is acceptable (and normal) for humanities professors to never read the Science Times, but not acceptable for science professors to be unaware of current books and film. Somehow, U.S. "culture" encompasses art, literature, politics, philosophy, etc, but not science.

    True story: A fellow union organizer (an English major) asked, "What's 30 divided by 5?" When given a hard time, his defense, of course, was "I'm an English major."

    * Full disclosure: I, a product of the liberal arts, have a MS and PhD in Atmospheric Science and Physics, respectively, but love literature, theatre, and art, and am an artist myself. I read more than many English majors.

  • On a Scale from Mike to Elizabeth
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 4, 2008 at 1:25pm EDT
  • Elizabeth, far from a mathematician myself, I am most grateful for math (applied and theoretical) and hard sciences, including Western medicine. I am often even grateful for computers.

    See the discussion linked below between Frizbane Manley and James W. Gettys on well- versus ill-defined problems:

    http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/06/26/qt

    That's the issue, Mike. Both camps have at times thought the other "lazy." You seem impatient with scholarship that treats problems for which a beginning, a middle, and a goal cannot be agreed upon by a discourse community with the same precision it can be with mathematical ones. What Humanities folks deal with can never be absolutely "proven" so you claim it must not be worthwhile, or can only be faked. Trouble is, as Gettys points out, most human problems cannot, by their very nature, be well defined. Yet they must still be confronted, researched, explored, debated, "grappled" with in a fluid, ongoing dialectic of human thought.

  • The Right to be Ingorant?
  • Posted by Cranky Old Prof on August 4, 2008 at 1:55pm EDT
  • I must confess to some disappointment at how badly this discussion is veering off course (perhaps it is usual and I just don't follow typical IHE discussions this deep).

    Mike, you really need to get out more. Nothing you say about the humanities is true of anything beyond an unimportant fringe (that the "right" likes to scream about loudly from the rooftops for purely political -- not intellectual -- gain).

    Elizabeth, if you think that being "adept at all the math [you] have ever needed in 50+ decades [???] of living" is sufficient, then you are missing it. "Need" is not the issue, and for a humanist to employ so utilitarian a criterion is to suffer from a pretty serious, probably fatal case of "glass houses."

    Everyone: this isn't about either/or. It is about both/and. I would think intellectuals of either sort would be well aware (from their students' more vexing complaints) that it is pretty hard to appreciate the value of what you don't already know, and that any attempt to justify one's own ignorance from a position of ignorance is, well, foolish and counter-productive.

    All learning is good. Learning about something you know almost nothing of is better still. Everything else is being ignorant, and how can that be good? (Think of the most willfully ignorant person you know of, and of how poorly you regard that person. Now think of the area of knowledge you know least about. Someone who knows a lot about that area thinks the same way about you. Now go learn.

  • Need a lawyer?
  • Posted by L.L. on August 4, 2008 at 2:35pm EDT
  • " .. But as capitalism is an inherently exploitive mode of production, deregulation allowed loan sharks to offer PREDATORY contracts .."

    Third time (last time before grade "F" administered):

    Unless someone is holding a gun to your head: if you do not 100% understand a contract -- do NOT sign.

    And the old joke, retold: the difference between capitalism and communism/socialism -- in the former, man exploits man, and in the latter, vice-versa.

    " .. borrowers lied (or were encouraged to lie) .."

    Uh .. inconvenient fact .. both can be criminal/civil felonies .. if facts really do matter ..

    " .. policy perpetrated by the Greed Head Elites .."

    Does that include the fact that governmental agencies get more money from oil companies than oil company shareholders?

  • Just Being Picky
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 4, 2008 at 2:40pm EDT
  • As usual, I agree with everyone ... even those with contradictory perspectives.

    I don’t know if it’s fair to criticize someone who boasts about her ignorance of mathematics, but Elizabeth, your “50+ decades of living” has piqued my interest. What is the magic elixir?

    I generally agree with the original piece, but must object to “I’m a professor at a liberal arts college, putting me solidly in the ‘Intellectual’ class ...” Granted, like the author, most of those writing comments have tended to put “Intellectual” in quotation marks ... and thank goodness for that. There can be little doubt that the college and university faculties in America are filled with highly educated individuals who would not qualify in accordance with any reasonable definition of “intellectual.” University faculty excellence -- in comparison to the excellence of those above the 40th percentile SES in the general population -- is not intellectualism ... is not intelligence ... is not being well informed ... is not being innovative ... is not being creative ... is not even scholarship. It is education. When it comes to education, academics have it ... and have it in spades. When it comes to intelligence or creativity, give me a randomly selected plumber or electrician every time.

    By the way, in the same manner that I would like to make a distinction between being educated and being an intellectual, I would like to make a distinction between getting an education and being trained. I suppose the best I can do vis-a-vis the author’s theme is admit it’s my prejudice that no one should claim to be an educated person while being ignorant of mathematics. In the same way that Chad Orzel is ignorant of art and music – although I got the impression he was trying to do something to remedy that – a huge proportion of the American citizenry must admit to being mathematically ignorant.

    P.S. I have a Ph.D. in mathematics, but, try as I have, I still don’t know what those string theorists have in mind. Oh yes ... I am damned good at Jeopardy!

  • Anti intellectualism
  • Posted by Patrick , Lecturer, Rhetoric at U of Iowa on August 4, 2008 at 4:15pm EDT
  • Anyone who teaches composition will have heard any number of engineering and science students say, "I won't have to write, I'm in sciences." Then they'll say what Mike says about the humanities: that the humanities are entirely subjective while science is the truth. They're ignorant, and they don't know what they're talking about. (I win bets by pointing out that I can find five metaphors or similes in any science article they care to bring me. I don't take the money, but it makes the point, usually by the end of the first page.)

    But it should be no surprise that they want to belittle disciplines in which they don't feel comfortable, in which they haven't done well, and (probably) have mocked them in the past. And I think it's a similar dynamic when humanities professors do the same, although I have to say I don't hear it around here. They're uncomfortable with their ignorance, they may have done badly in the past, and they know that Mike's out there mocking them.

    Students who graduate from four year universities--in my view--should be fluent writers and readers. They should have mastered math to calculus. They should have a more than basic understanding of statistical reasoning. They should be fluent in one modern language. And they should look down on none of the disciplines.

    One last thing: I work in composition, and one of the things that strikes me in the math and science classes I've witnessed is that humanities, especially composition and languages, think more systematically about pedagogy than the sciences. Calculus, in my experience, consisted of the professor walking in the room and putting proofs on the board. No one (except me) thought it a very strange way to teach. But while laziness and arrogance account for prideful innumeracy on campus, it's also partly the result of ill considered teaching.

    I say this knowing that some mathematicians and scientists think deeply and well about pedagogy and some English professors don't understand it or care. These are tendencies, that's all.

  • well said!
  • Posted by rightwingprofessor on August 4, 2008 at 4:55pm EDT
  • Well said indeed. I am tired of hearing the "I could never do math" line from supposedly educated people. If I stood up in the same crowd and said "I was never any good at writing in complete sentences" or "I never managed to master reading past the 7th grade level", I suspect the response would be rather harsh!

    http://rightwingprofessor.blogspot.com/

  • A perversion of the Humanities
  • Posted by mike on August 4, 2008 at 5:00pm EDT
  • The Humanities should be a study of what constitutes the Good Life and how those insights have been expressed in the activities and culture of mankind. e.g.
    History, Law, Philosophy, Religious Studies, Art History,Archaeology etc. Such a study would have a claim on every student entering college and would truly enrich their lives. Ever since postmodernism took over the academy, this question has been rendered, by definition, meaningless. Language has been deconstructed, morality relativized and thought replaced with perverse PC gobledygook. God has been banned,proclaimed dead or treated like a primitive superstition. That is why,generally speaking, today, humanities professors study and teach in a great intellectual void. Not because the topics of the humanities aren't amenable to rigourous thought and logical conclusions. Just because such thought and conclusions have been dismissed by humanities professors as useless since we can't arrive at Truth (according to them) anyway. (After which they go ahead and teach their own ideas as Truth anyway.) Science and math are not quite as subject to this trend (although Title IX is looming) so more substance remains. I learned quite a bit regarding the humanities, which I love, but not from humanities professors. I learned from books. The kind they don't write anymore.

  • Mathematical Knowledge as part of the Liberal Arts
  • Posted by Lee J Rickard on August 4, 2008 at 5:40pm EDT
  • To clarify what I meant earlier, I can give an example of how a basic argument in one part of the humanities relies on knowledge of mathematics as a liberal art.

    In his 1922 book From Vita Nuova to Paradiso, Philip Wicksteed is attempting to explain the Beatific Vision, and in particular how it is that the different souls see God to the level of their capacities. He reminds the reader that Dante what meant by 'seeing God's essence' was an understanding of how God's manifestations and effects necessarily flow from Him. And his model for that is logical/mathematical:

    "We no sooner form ... general conceptions of 'whole' and 'part' than we are compelled to admit, as a general self-evident proposition or axiom, that the whole is greater than its part... There are other logical and mathematical axioms that assert themselves inevitably as soon as we have formed certain elementary generalizations or abstract ideas. Then, further, we find that these axioms involve many unsuspected consequences which we may be slow to perceive, but which when once perceived assert themselves as inevitably involved in the axioms themselves, and as necessarily flowing from them. Thus the whole body of logical truth (including mathematics, that marvelous erection of specialized logic with its intense intellectual interest and its innumerable practical applications) has all been evolved in the progress of the ages out of the little stock of axioms that everyone capable of understanding their terms must inevitably accept."

    He then draws the analogy between our differing abilities to follow mathematical arguments and the differing abilities of souls to follow God's essence.

    This is an argument rooted solidly in Euclid, and is one reason why geometry is still an essential part of liberal education even though its utility is limited in everyday life. If pressed, I'm sure I could extend the argument to the rest of mathematics and the sciences.

  • Posted by albert on August 4, 2008 at 6:10pm EDT
  • I am sympathetic with the premise of this article, and agree with his point. Knowledge of math and science is part of a well rounded person's intellectual development. However, saying that people are in debt because they cannot do arithmetic is overly simplistic. Are people fat because they cannot count calories? If so, then there must not be any physics or math majors who are in debt or obese. Somehow that does not work for me. That being said, it is true that many people will confess innumeracy with no compunction, whereas one would never say "I have trouble reading." For the record, the author should learn the difference between Beethoven and Bach (perhaps from his colleagues), and his colleagues should learn how to figure interest on investments (perhaps from him).

  • But Here’s What I Heard ...
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 4, 2008 at 6:20pm EDT
  • Sorry Patrick ... I can’t let you get away with that.

    Many years ago I taught high school Algebra I and Algebra II ... and omigod was that fun. I don’t know how many times I said – and heard other math teachers say -- “If you can read, you can set up this problem, and once ‘set up,’ the solution will be trivial.” The key is being able to read ... and that means much more than being able to mouth the words.

    Most of my career has entailed teaching mathematics (as another language) to college and university students. There I have said – and heard others say – “Every teacher is an English teacher.” We especially emphasized that perspective with our Ph.D. students who were taking their first teaching positions.

    Guess what? I have never, ever heard an English teacher say anything that is comparable to that about mathematics. Please don’t take that observation as an accusation. I’ll expand my earlier comment; to wit, “No one should claim to be an educated person while being ignorant of mathematics, the physical sciences, the earth sciences, the biological sciences, philosophy, world literature, world history, geography, civics and government, the fine and performing arts, and current events ... and then, on top of that, be able to write five pages of insightful and grammatically correct discourse about a topic of interest.” How’s that? Does that work for you? Okay, okay, I’ll add world religions too ... if you insist.

  • Question to L.L.
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 4, 2008 at 7:25pm EDT
  • "Does that include the fact that governmental agencies get more money from oil companies than oil company shareholders?" Yes. It's called State Capitalism. Big Business creates Big Government.

    I also agree with the old joke: Capitalism exploits; so does Communism/Socialism. Can't think outside that box? The point is to look at what BOTH have in common and question THAT, i.e. a Coordinator Class.

    But of course folks should understand a contract before signing it. Question:

    Why, over the last few years, this sudden phenomenon: masses of people (with no guns to their heads) signing mortgages OVER their heads? Wasn't such a trend in the more distant past. As David Brinkley used to say, "What's going on here?"

  • Frisbane: Good catch!
  • Posted by Elizabeth on August 4, 2008 at 11:05pm EDT
  • "Elizabeth, your “50+ decades of living” has piqued my interest. What is the magic elixir?"

    LOL. And me an editor.

    I'll blame it on Mondayitis and the discomfiting effect of being stuck inside an office on a perfect summer day.

    Honest, my math is really better than that!

  • The Pudding
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 4, 2008 at 11:05pm EDT
  • Frizbane Manley,
    Here's an English teacher who has sometimes appealed to mathematics in writing class. I have told students that math is a language. When we've done coordinating conjunctions, for example, I've pointed out that "For," "and," "nor," "but" "or," "yet," "so" have equivalent mathematical symbols or ("or"is equal to "=", the verb form being "is" or "are") are used to define terms, show relationships between "sentences" and "clauses" etc. Does that count?

    Speaking of String Theory: What do you think of Lisa Randall's Theory of Branes?

    Also I took issue in Ron Howard's _A Beautiful Mind_ with the opening where Judd Hirsch is boasting how mathematicians broke the German code during WW II. It was also literary historians and textual scholars. Also in the Pacific Theater. Ever hear of the Hinman Collating Machine? Invented by Charlton Hinman who used a problem in textual scholarship to gain military intelligence.

    Finally, never forget that it was an English teacher who won the Civil War. Little Round Top, key to the whole position at Gettysburg. Col. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. Out of ammo, ordered an audacious bayonet charge down the hill.

    Actually, I myself am working on a mathematical treatise. But it won't have a title like "Haademard subfactors of Bisch-Haagerup type." Rather, it will be called "The Pudding."

  • On Mike's "Intellectual Laziness of Humanities 'Proessors'"
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 5, 2008 at 9:30am EDT
  • Mike,
    Your notion of the perversion of the humanities, especially in literary studies has merit.

    Things really got jazzed up with the passing of the New Criticism, the advent of Theory, and the opening up of The Canon to non-white male writers.

    But fomenting the "good life" that you say should characterize the teaching of great literature I find a bit confusing. Do you mean the great Beauty and aesthetic experience that the New Critics used to find in irony, moral ambiguity and the appearance vs. reality theme?

    Perhaps you don't like the updated terms growing out of those old notions, such as Derrida's "differance," moral relativism, and the permutations of consciousness roiled by history itself in the production and consumption of literary texts. True, what "appearance vs. reality" meant to the New Critics has taken on additional resonance as we've continued to think about this term in light of _The Political Unconscious_ or women's daring to "attempt the pen," to compete with male writers in the marketplace and suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous male contempt for doing so.

    But by the Good Life, do you mean aesthetic experience as explained by even the New Critics' conception of "moral ambiguity" and "appearance vs. reality"? Even before all this theory started in, I remember, traditional literature teachers explained that what made great literature great was its capturing the paradoxical Universal Truth of no Absolutes.

  • Reading, Writing, and Arithmetic
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 5, 2008 at 9:30am EDT
  • Note: Before I reach this point, my 8th graders (or college freshmen) know the difference between a declarative sentence and an open sentence. I’ll ignore that here.

    Question: You have two numbers. Three times the first is nine more than two times the second. The first is two more than the second. What are the numbers?

    Teach: Do you know the answer?

    Student: Nooooo.

    Teach: Do you think some shorthand will help?

    Student: Maybe ...

    Teach: Okay your turn. Start with the first sentence and use some mathematical shorthand.

    Student: Okay ... how about x is the first number and y is the second number.

    Teach: Right ... but do you remember how to write “is” in mathematics.

    Student: Ahhh ... x = the first number and y = the second number.

    Teach: Good ... let’s tackle the second sentence. Do you know how to write “three times the first” and “two times the second”?

    Student: I do ... “three times the first” is 3x and “two times the second” is 2y.

    Teach: Shorthand ... remember the shorthand.

    Student: Oh right ... “three times the first” = 3x and “two times the second” = 2y.

    Teach: Good show. Now use your shorthand to write the second sentence.

    Student: I can’t do that.

    Teach: Okay, how about 3x = 2y ... is that right?

    Student: No ... they’re not equal. 3x is 9 more than 2y. The one on the left is the bigger one.

    Teach: So?

    Student: Okay, 3x = 2y + 9

    Teach: Good show. Now the third sentence?

    Student: Okay ... “the first” ...x ... “is” ... = ... “two more than the second” ... y + 2. That’s it, isn’t it? ... x = y + 2.

    Teach: Right you are! Now you’ve got two sentences (equations) and the second one tells you x = y + 2. In other words, y + 2 is a synonym for x. Why don’t you substitute y + 2 for x in the first sentence?

    Student: Okay ... 3(y + 2) = 2y + 9.

    Teach: Well, I see you’re very good at (1) using shorthand, (2) sentence structure, and (3) reading. It’s time to use a little mathematics to solve that problem.

    Lesson: I assume you can see that critical reading does the trick. After that, the mathematics is trivial. Indeed, math is almost always trivial once you wade through the shorthand, the reading, and very often some creative drawing (art counts too).

    P.S. Answer: x = 5 and y = 3 (better check your answer); and, by the way, you should probably point out to your student that that’s a compound sentence. Now initiate an argument about whether a comma is required after 5.

  • Well Done, Frizbane
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 5, 2008 at 10:40am EDT
  • Thanks also for raising the comma debate. Now on to Lisa Randall's Brane Theory.

  • Simple math
  • Posted by L.L. on August 5, 2008 at 10:40am EDT
  • " .. Why, over the last few years, this sudden phenomenon: masses of people (with no guns to their heads) signing mortgages OVER their heads?"

    Gee ..

    Zero down payment, subsidized by taxpayers .. little-supervised, taxpayer-subsidized 125% financing (gives buyer immediate big $$) ..

    Which artificially drives down existing supply and drives up housing prices, providing even more unsupervised taxpayer-subsidized financing (next year: taxpayer-funded tearing-down of housing left behind) ..

    Equaling taxpayer-subsidized no-cost living for years -- but resulting in foreclosure and bankruptcy .. which, again, "The Wall Street Journal" began warning about more than five years ago ..

    Yup -- that's "change."

    Math is very hard to learn, if only using movies as the platform for pedagogy. Pencil and paper are usually required. And hard work.

  • Who's that?
  • Posted by F.A.S. on August 5, 2008 at 10:55am EDT
  • " .. Alan Desland, a socially awkward Englishman, meets a mysterious, beautiful woman. Overwhelmed by passion, he marries her almost immediately, but .."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Girl_in_a_Swing

  • "Question for L.L."
  • Posted by Man Singing at Inquirer Party on August 5, 2008 at 12:00pm EDT
  • As Deslin suggests above, L.L., check out the symbiosis: Big Business/Big Government.

  • As I Was Saying . . .
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 5, 2008 at 12:10pm EDT
  • (Sorry, had to cut out, L.L.) I was saying look at the role of lobbying, Big Cheese policy makers who have legislators in their hip pockets, K Street, deregulation.

    You're right to be a tax revolter. But it's not just a liberals-create-taxes while conservatives-strive-to-hold taxes down problem. More complicated than that.

    As I explained before (this for the last time before you get your "F," too), tax payers are always footing the bill for "externalities," social costs arising from business deals the public was not in on (like NAFTA); deregulation lobbied for on behalf of corporations; pollution; wars for oil and the like.

    The conservative capitalists love that game. Fleece tax payers, pocket much of that self-same tax money themselves, and blame their liberal capitalist counterparts. Liberal capitalists have their own game.

    I swear but for advanced technology we could be back in ancient Rome, the plebes jerked around by quarreling factions of the Patrician class. Likewise today's plebes feel they've no choice but to take sides with the Pats rather than developing their own grassroots organizing: the 10th Federalist Paper notwithstanding (in which Madison celebrated the new Constitution's making that difficult).

    You don't like paying exorbitant taxes? Take it up with the private-sector Big Wigs too.

  • It is a shame
  • Posted by Sriram Khe , Associate Professor of Geography on August 5, 2008 at 1:05pm EDT
  • Thanks for articulating this argument.

    In California, when I organized a class where faculty colleagues from different disciplines would come to talk to freshman students, I was shocked when one of them told the group of about 25 something like, "I am not good at math. But see where I am? If you don't like math, you too can ignore it."

    Yes, the "two cultures" of CS Lewis is alive and well. What a shame that now we systematically cultivate and validate scientific and quantitative ignorance and apathy :-(

  • Math and Science in Gen Ed
  • Posted by Faculty Person on August 5, 2008 at 3:50pm EDT
  • What really concerns me is the general shortage of math and science in the general education programs in most universities. I believe that educated citizenry need, at a minimum a good working knowledge of statistics -- not just high school algebra as well as a better background in the sciences.

  • Just doesn't add up
  • Posted by L.L. on August 5, 2008 at 3:55pm EDT
  • " .. tax payers are always footing the bill for “externalities,” social costs arising from business deals the public was not in on (like NAFTA); deregulation lobbied for on behalf of corporations; pollution; wars for oil .."

    All summer long on "IHE," some theorists without professional economist training have been espousing an odd psuedo-economic anarchic Utopia that has traces of Patrick J. Buchanan and Lou Dobbs.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Henwood

    "Libertarian socialism" makes about as much sense as "new math" and "Army intelligence." And is about as useful.

    The USDOJ isn't over at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to discuss obtuse economic theories. DOJ is there with an eye toward civil charges and criminal indictment. And, yeah, most of their people are pretty good with everyday math (e.g., 50 years is five decades).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Raines

  • Alan:The Good Life
  • Posted by mike on August 5, 2008 at 5:40pm EDT
  • The Good Life - a life of being a good person and having the pleasure of living.

    Those words have meaning. We know what they mean. (The question is, how do we achieve it?) Unless you are a humanities professor, in which case you get very very confused and attempt to suck others into that confusion. e.g. "The paradoxical Truth that there are no Absolutes". (Is that Absolutely true that there are no Absolutes? Or is it just true for you that there are no Absolutes? But for me there could be Absolutes? Was Apartheid in South Africa an Absolute Evil or for some people aparthied could have been OK? Do we get to vote on it? Oh never mind. I'm just not smart enough to appreciate the subtlety/nuance blah blah woof woof...)

  • Alan -No absolutes
  • Posted by mike on August 5, 2008 at 5:55pm EDT
  • Whenver I got into a discussion of "no absolutes" it always would wind up with the "relativist" challanging me by showing that the details of a situation determine it's moral content. That's what they meant by "no absolutes". They should have said "no simple set of rules that apply to every case since life is complex". No absolutes means that the moral content of the situation is dependent completely on people's perception of it. i.e. if people get togeter and say a thing is right or wrong - then it is. Absolutes means that situations have moral content independent of human perception, and that it is our job to find the moral truth of the situation.

  • Good points, Mike
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 5, 2008 at 9:40pm EDT
  • I might better have critiqued "absolutes" as idealist (in the Platonic sense). I certainly think Apartheid was evil, and corporations kept investing in the Apartheid govt. of South Africa just by the kind of moral relativism (or rationalization, if you prefer) that you so ably condemn.

    Likewise, we're having similar issues with China. On one hand corporations hire Alxeander Haig and Brent Scowcroft to "open doors" to trade in China. But they can't very well do that by barging in there and criticizing China's human rights abuses, now can they? But corporations are paying them handsomely to butter up the Chinese govt. for trade deals.

    This has been a sickening pattern throughout the world since WW II: Corporations acting like profits are more important than people, even unto pressuring Western govts. into preventing, rather than promoting, democracies which corporations feared, or knew, would restrict them.

    Also, I appear to have contradicted myself (not on purpose) in my discussion above. Any number of revisions I'd like to make, and would, were I to publish this.

    I'd prefer to stick with my first statement about striving to avoid "moral relativism." I think you and I are closer on that point, since humans and their institutions often rationalize their evil deeds. The U.S. govt. acting on behalf of corporations, is guilty of horrendous slaughter, evil deeds, oppression at home and around the world. It's factual. Also I give you Maoism and the Soviet Union as comparable examples. The trouble is that what the U.S. has done has been largely hidden from its own people, which shows how little democracy we have.

    I think it was Al Smith who said, "The only cure for the ills of democracy is more democracy." So many of us have trouble trusting that. It's not an Absolute or a reversal of Plato's Republic. It's hard to say what "more democracy" even means. But I believe in it. I don't see how "more democracy" can square with either capitalism or communism as we've known them.

    I also believe that while humans have different talents, energy levels, and intelligences that democracy would make best use of that diversity while rewarding none of it with social privilege, thus--and here's the key--allowing ALL talent to emerge and develop. What we do now pinches off most talent while we claim that the privileged have won some sort of fair competition.

    Social privilege, moreover, is a major source of unhappiness which can be greatly diminished by giving it up. There would still be problems, but of a less tragic sort. What would it look like? For all we know we're inventing and evolving it already, with false starts, experiments, trial and error--you know, the way humans learn. I HOPE we're learning. I am harassed by doubts betimes.

    Margaret Thatcher said there is no better alternative to capitalism. Well, that was her opinion. And it certainly served the interests of her oligarchical connections to say that. I think, however, there's a deep desire for something else that's possible. Things could be otherwise. Things could be better.

  • Two cultures
  • Posted by Emma Stenstrom on August 6, 2008 at 5:05am EDT
  • I have a PhD in Economics (with lots of math and statistics...) and a Masters in Literature. Today, I split my time between a Business School and an Arts School.

    I fully agree with the argument. People always ask me if not my colleagues at the business school are very close-minded, but it is rather the opposite. They are much more interested in the arts and humanities, than the arts people ever are in business, economics - or math.

    I think, though, that you can find the explanation in the works of Pierre Bourdieu.
    Why don't you give it a try?

  • See Carol Gilligan
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 6, 2008 at 5:05am EDT
  • Mike,
    Thought we were in the other thread, so I got away from innumeracy. Did you see my final "brief" discussion of moral relativism in the Sociology and Crime discussion board? Also August 4?

    You say there can be an Absolute beyond the political turmoil of a given discussion. But it strikes me that this too will always largely be political in some sense: hence my warning against idealism. To White South Africans Apartheid was actually moral because it was needed to protect Private Property, for one thing. I heard a conservative talk show host assert, "There can be no human rights without property rights." I had a hard time getting my mind around that one. For him Property Rights seemed to be an Absolute beyond all discussion.

    For Carol Gilligan, if not an Absolute then at least something very important both outside and inside an ethical dilemma will tend to differ somewhat by gender: The Rule of Law for males, the sanctity of relationships for females. So who gets to say, in a given situation, what is the Absolute? In extreme cases like Apartheid that may be easier than in political issues in the U.S. where education, health care, housing for the poor may conflict with the so-called property rights of the rich. Just as I think the Absolute imperative is to allay poverty; others may think the Absolute is to protect private property. So, while you and I may sometimes agree what that "Absolute" out there really is (the Holocaust, slavery, Apartheid), at other times our differing political affiliations make it difficult. Sometimes there may be no Absolutes? But I repeat: this doesn't mean I believe in do-as-you-please relativism, obviously. It's just that we must recognize that our morals are inextricably merged with where we stand amid social power relations, with whom we identify and so on.

    I also had a discussion on literature and the Good Life's contemplation of themes like moral ambiguity, appearance vs. reality, etc. but I've quite lost track where. Hope you've come across it.

  • Alan - the Guess Who
  • Posted by mike on August 6, 2008 at 5:05am EDT
  • Alan, I see you are grappling the best you can with the fact that our institutions wind up being no better than the people that comprise them. So whatever solution you choose, in my mind, the fundimental issue comes down to "will people be bad when no one is looking".

    I believe any other solution you come up with will create a similar oligarchy running the show, at best. Like the Guess Who says in "We Won't Be Fooled Again" - parking on the left is now parking on the right.

    The fact is, there is great social mobility in America for those who choose to take advantage of it. So I consider this system the best currently on the planet, ills and all. Problems and all. People who it doesn't serve and all. Because all systems have similar if not worse issues.

    When the nation becomes filled with truly God fearing and righteous people, then maybe we can do better. But since the nation is filled with mostly decent but often confused and flawed people, I believe that what we have now is pretty darn good.

  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 6, 2008 at 7:45am EDT
  • Mike, Well stated, and thank you for the discussion.

  • Bourdieu
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 6, 2008 at 7:45am EDT
  • Emma Stenstrom: As you may gather I'm one literature and arts person who (belatedly) developed an interest in business, economics, science and math.

    I'm familiar with Bourdieu but was wondering if you had a more specific reference where he explains the divide of which you speak.

  • It is "The Who"
  • Posted by L.L. on August 6, 2008 at 7:55am EDT
  • " .. Like the Guess Who says in “We Won’t Be Fooled Again” — parking on the left is now parking on the right .."

    Alto! It is "The Who." Not "The Guess Who." And "Won't Be Fooled Again."

    " .. I believe any other solution you come up with will create a similar oligarchy running the show, at best."

    Yes -- as no actual solution has been cited. Just ad hoc theory.

    Recall "four legs bad, two legs good." Ask anyone who had their family's land and property "liberated" by Fidel, Mao, Lenin, and other heroes of the naive, dreamy-minded Left. Like "The Who" -- we will never be fooled again -- repeating the same mistakes is just inane.

  • Legacies
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 6, 2008 at 8:00am EDT
  • Oh, Mike. Sorry I forgot to call your attention to my dialog with one E. Moran under the topic of "Admits . . . Legacies" also in the Aug. 4 IHE. If you're interested.

    But your point about spiritual transformation is well taken. We're back to the question whether just the spirit comes first or whether God wants us to "Act as if . . ." as in building loving institutions (instead of exploitive ones) as part of what brings about spiritual transformation.

    Maybe it all boils down to this: all human motivation is either coming out of a place of love, or fear (usually both at once!). If God is Love, then . . .

  • A Note To Alan Desland ...
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 6, 2008 at 8:30am EDT
  • I don’t know how long you have been contributing to InsideHigherEd, but someone should have warned you about this. Okay ... you’ve been sucked into one of IHE’s mindless brain drains. You will notice that the “regulars” realize that no combination of information and logic will win (enlighten) one of these waaay off-the-subject debates ... so they don’t contribute.

    For example, I advise you to avoid mentioning that “best” – as in “we are the best” or “this system [is] the best currently on the planet” -- is a vacuous and, therefore, a meaningless construct with no indicators, and certainly no variables that measure the indicators. Anyone can spout that sort of nonsense with no danger of being challenged by information or logic.

    But, getting back on subject, here are two ways in which our educational system is far from the “best” ...

    http://perotcharts.com/images/education/education07.png

  • LL-Agreed
  • Posted by mike on August 6, 2008 at 9:20am EDT
  • I stand corrected! And of course, left wing fantasies of collectivism, social justice etc rapidly degenerate into tyranny and inhumanity. Which is why I said "at best". And yet, there seems to be at least 1/2 of this country that is ready to be fooled again...

  • Comparative analysis
  • Posted by L.L. on August 6, 2008 at 9:35am EDT
  • " .. But, getting back on subject, here are two ways in which our educational system is far from the “best” ..."

    Dr. Manley -- how does Finland (No. 1) compare with the USA (No. 20 & 26), policy-wise?

    How ethnically-diverse is Finland? Does Finland have issues related to illegal (and not legal) immigration? Who provided Finland (and Germany and Europe) with a "nuclear umbrella" for 50+ years, vs. those nice gentlemen at the USSR Politboro?

    At the Institute of Medicine, there is a saying -- "to research, then act." Research and theoretical constructs are one thing. Direct, hands-on, and engaged involvement is very much another.

  • Posted by Jim on August 6, 2008 at 10:35am EDT
  • I think that the stumbling block for many people is math and science usually require deciphering a specific, exact answer to a problem, which in turn causes them to feel uncertainty about the methods they used to derive the answer (following the right formula, procedures, knowing how chemical bonds work, etc.). But in the case of many liberal arts subjects, "answers" to questions are most often opinions based upon an interpretation of facts, objects and events (albeit often when viewed through the lens of a specific belief system, philosophical methodology or plain-and-simple personal taste).

    The point being, ask 100 thirty year olds to use the quadratic formula to solve a problem and 25 will do it correctly, but ask 100 thirty year olds what they think of The Dark Knight as compared to other summer movies, or how "Eat, Pray, Love" measures up to other books they've read, and you'll get many more than 15 "answers." Not every reply will be as well thought out as an Ebert review (some might only get a C or D if thoroughly graded), but very few will be marked "wrong" in a red pen because a misstep in the second line of the proof messed up the entire calculation.

    People don't like to be wrong, so they would rather hide behind a "not good in math" justification than be made to feel inadequate or not gifted in the subject matter. Many people, however, will tell you with great enthusiasm (and some with even a certain degree of scholarship) who the best contestant on American Idol is, and they didn't need to use precise calculations to come to their conclusion.

  • "two cultures"
  • Posted by Neil Rest on August 6, 2008 at 10:35am EDT
  • (One of my own brain's failings is a weakness for names. I'm much better at remembering lines than including the attributions. This is from memory, it's not my own!)

    "There aren't two cultures, there are only half-cultured people."

  • Fannie/Freddie math?
  • Posted by L.L. on August 6, 2008 at 11:00am EDT
  • " .. The point being, ask 100 thirty year olds to use the quadratic formula to solve a problem and 25 will do it correctly .."

    Could those 100 folks being working at Freddic Mac, Fannie Mae and the U.S. Budget Office? Hmm ...

    "Freddie Mac Loses $821 Million"
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/business/07freddie.html?hp

    Math are scary.

  • Frizbane, I Can't Think of a Better Use for Math
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 6, 2008 at 11:15am EDT
  • Frizbane, please explain common denominators. I say again, fellas, look at what BOTH SYSTEMS have had in COMMON. THAT'S the issue. Inhumanity is what we're doing now. Violence, squalor, disease, hopelessness, non-participation, apathy, nihilism, powerlessness, addiction, mindless collectivism are what we're doing NOW ad nauseum. Are these not repeated mistakes? We ARE fooled again, and again.

    Resolving the Binary. Suppose there were a way to merge entrepreneurial business with networks of cooperatives that did not have to be administered by oppressive chains of command. Hard to imagine because history itself has programmed us in social hierarchy.

    Frizbane, you are a mathematician. Look at Michael Albert's and Robin Hahnel's "The Political Economy of Participatory Economics" and check out the math (Princeton UP, 1991.)

    I repeat: the POINT is just to IMAGINE such a system up and running the way the authors say it could very well do (given time to develop), designed actually to PREVENT an entrenched elite taking over and forcing everybody into collectivist sweatshops (which, by the way, are going on AS WE SPEAK, and we middle class types are beneficiaries).

    What we have NOW is Brave New World with some people living their UTOPIA at other's expense. See the movie "Fight Club." (Our personalities are split by a sociopathic, corporate capitalism.) I'm only proposing that IMAGINING such an alternative as Participatory Economics threatens a psychological crisis. (The reaction I'm getting here is therefore a likely sign of health. Otherwise I'd worry.) It is anxiety provoking not because of any "danger" that Parecon will come about but because it reveals the true depths of our institutional pathology.

    Yet it's one thing forever to catalog ills. What are we FOR?

  • Warning - off topic
  • Posted by mike on August 6, 2008 at 12:05pm EDT
  • Alan,
    Elites are good and inevitible. Anyone who proposes a system where there are no elites, where people are all "the same", is proposing totalitarianism with themselves at the top. Even if you didn't realize it.

    People are individuals with individual talents and drives, hence elites will emerge in any system and they will command. The best you can hope for is humane elites. People being people.

  • Crawfish
  • Posted by Bill Ectric on August 6, 2008 at 12:05pm EDT
  • Despite being a weird songwriter and a Captain Beefheart fan, my egghead friend David Roberts says, "Algebra requires 3rd-level intellectual thinking because it utilizes the problem-solving areas of your brain. Humans hate algebra for the same reasons that humans hate physical exercise...it's hard, requires dedication, and actually calls for increased challenge ... You need experience in third-level cognition in everything from changing a flat tire to performing a delicate surgery. It's like a mental workout for future needed performance the same way that physical exercise prepares one for future needed performance."

    This from a guy whose band is called "The Crawfish of Love."

  • Mike, Perhaps
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 6, 2008 at 12:45pm EDT
  • I suspect worker self-management might well be possible. But to the extent we're a democracy, if more people simply read the books and variously discussed and critiqued them (I have my share of doubts and questions; Parecon has a website full of debates) we might be able to hold our elites that much more accountable. I don't think, as a group, they're very humane at the moment. It might have humanizing effects on our institutions, too.

    People being people? People are products of culture, institutions. People can awaken to the fact that institutions are humanly made and so can be humanly changed. It might tend to reduce slavery, patriarchy, even middle class neurosis. Who knows? The point is to see how a variety of thinkers have looked at questions from multiple angles, and then sit down together among ourselves and discuss, at least, what a more humane form of elitism might look like.

    Call it capitalism with a human face.

  • Return to Numeracy: Flight of the Phoenix
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 6, 2008 at 1:35pm EDT
  • Mike, All the objections--and many more!--that you and L.L. and F.A.S and E. Moran raise are treated in both Parecon books and on the website (Google "Parecon" or "Participatory Economics.")

    A good illustration of the best democratic use of "elites," I've always felt, is depicted in the original movie "The Flight of the Phoenix" (1966 version!) As I recall, it suggests how a Parecon might work. Yes, you have a guy who emerges as the leader, and rightfully so because he's the only one with the MATHEMATICAL EXPERTISE to get the passengers safely out of the desert where their plane has crashed. But see the film for an example of how genuine democratic cooperation (as a humane institution) proves to be their ultimate savior.

    P.S. The website has changed, but I had a former student who saw a good intro and said, "That's nothing new. I work with a small company that rigs smart houses. The owner made all of us equal owners. We self-manage just like it's described here. Skeptical, I asked, Yes, but who's the boss? "Depends," he said, "on what we're doing; it tends to alternate according to our areas of expertise." But who does most of the boring work or dirty work? "We divide that equally among ourselves or else I wouldn't work there. Sorry, Professor. This Parecon BS is nothing new to me." How do you like it? "Wouldn't want to work any other way."

    I had my doubts he really understood the concept, or that his business really operated that way. But if he said so. . . .

  • to Frizbane Manley
  • Posted by Patrick-dolan@uiowa.edu on August 6, 2008 at 1:35pm EDT
  • The header "anti-intellectualism" was not directed at your post, but rather at Mike's and Elizabeth's. I believe that we agree substantially on what counts as "educated" and we certainly agree that a more than superficial understanding of mathematics is crucial to a full intellectual toolbox.

    Still, I have to point out that I know many humanities professors who appreciate mathematics, and are willing to think of the discipline as possessing great beauty and wisdom, as well as being basic to all sorts of really important thinking. (This is particularly true of philosophers, who have been exposed to formal logic.)

    I suspect that what's happening here is that you hang out with wise mathematicians, who appreciate language, and I (try to) hang out with wise humanities professors, who appreciate mathematics.

    Oh, and BTW, my spouse is a statistician and medical researcher, who continually sharpens my thinking on these issues.

  • sigh
  • Posted by Peet on August 6, 2008 at 4:40pm EDT
  • I've lived with this debate my whole life. My father is an extraordinarily accomplished engineer. I'm your basic humanities major. Please start humming the theme from "The Odd Couple" now. After 30 years of dredging this stuff up, all I can say is that you need both sides, in equal measure. And you need to be in excellent physical shape, to know when to draw against an inside straight, how to change an air filter, and how to create a makeshift tournaquet using only popsicle sticks and a used t-shirt. Short of that, make the most of what you have, challenge yourself, and don't be afraid of the unfamiliar. But using math competency as a criterion for classifying someone as an intellectual or not? That's the kind of generalized provocative statement that works well in hit-and-run journalism but does nothing to advance the actual issue: encouraging people to think better and giving them a compelling reason to do so. Interesting to see the trend has filtered upward.

  • Still off topic - warning - don't read
  • Posted by mike on August 6, 2008 at 4:40pm EDT
  • Alan,
    Nice talking to you, but, sorry;I am a Patriarch and I want to increase Patriarchy.

    Also the system you suggested has already been tried. It's called America. Anyone can read any book they are so inclined and hold any view they are so inclined and speak to each other and form organizations etc. And we have what we have.

  • Liberal/Gen Ed and Numeracy
  • Posted by cts on August 6, 2008 at 5:50pm EDT
  • Ok, I'm NOT good at math - never have been and years of misery in school did not help. On the other hand, I love logic. And, I am deeply ashamed of my mathematical limitations.
    Enough self-disclosure. I agree with Frizbane that an educated person [not an intellectual] should have the full range of skills and knowledge that the 'great divide' encompasses. I have been trying to get my colleagues to change our 'either critical thinking or math' requirement to separate ones. I doubt this will work, for 2 reasons:
    1) the Admissions folks do not want to scare off math-phobic students;
    2) the logic folks don't want to hand critical reasoning over to every Sue, Dick, and Harry [some of whom might fit Mike's stereotypical depiction of 'humanities' profs].
    So, we'll undoubtedly stick with what we have. Either you can think your way out of a paper bag, OR you learn some math. How sad.

  • Posted by Manfred on August 6, 2008 at 10:40pm EDT
  • After 30 years of teaching at a university that claims to support the goals of a liberal education, I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that the comments by cts identify the real causes of this dismal situation.

  • some elemetry maths and physicevery one must know
  • Posted by Ramesh Raghuvanshi on August 7, 2008 at 5:10am EDT
  • Today we are living 1n very very advance knowledge based society, every educated person must be acquinted all social and physical sciences. Today our life is so complex for surverval purpose we must know some basec fact of life.
    Yes we must try to know music, and art also, they inrich our life.As our lifespan is increasing, to aoid the boredom in old age art and music can help us tolive life with pure joy and self satisfaction.

  • Math scores
  • Posted by L.L. on August 7, 2008 at 9:50am EDT
  • " .. What we have NOW is Brave New World with some people living their UTOPIA at other’s expense. See the movie “Fight Club.” (Our personalities are split by a sociopathic, corporate capitalism.)"

    Uh .. "Fight Club" was a fictional novel by Chuck Palahniuk that was made into a violent drama-edy with Brad Pitt.

    Per Friz -- what does that have to do with poor math scores?

    " .. I’m only proposing that IMAGINING such an alternative as Participatory Economics threatens a psychological crisis .."

    "Imagine" is a good usage. Because "Parecon" as a political-economic theory is so very small.

    Again, per ol' Friz -- what does this have to do with poor math scores?

    The USA is fast-becoming a second-rate nation, with mucho engineering imported from Asia while watching movies as a substitute for pedagogy in math, economics, and political science. Oh, happy day!

  • "[M]ucho engineering imported from Asia"
  • Posted by Malvern Hill on August 7, 2008 at 12:25pm EDT
  • That's why this system isn't as serious about education is it claims: firms can always import or outsource.

    I do take issue, L.L. with your blithe dismissal of _Fight Club_: "Uh .. “Fight Club” was a fictional novel by Chuck Palahniuk that was made into a violent drama-edy with Brad Pitt." If you were a student in my class, I'd say, "That's right! What else? Let's get deeper into things, shall we?"

    The key to the film version is shown in a brief sequence. Very subtle, but there IN THE TEXT. Calls for close reading. The protagonist (Ed Norton) is deeply depressed and distressed, but also an affluent adjuster for an auto manufacturer. His job is to investigate instances in which people have died skin-peeling deaths in auto fires, get back to his company with a cost-benefit analysis. Is it cheaper to lose the law suits and pay off the families or to recall the cars? Why, turns out to be more profitable just to go on producing the cars and living with the odds. So what if it means a few casualties? This reflection is passed over quickly in the film. It's significant.

    Fictional novel and film, yes, but inspired by what goes on in the real world. Just read the papers. If you kept clippings of every story in which corporations were caught lying, cheating, stealing, killing you'd have stacks and stacks and stacks. And that's just the ice berg tip that get caught. "Bad apples" indeed. It's systematic.

    The rest of the plot, including the appearance of the colorful Tyler Durden (Brad Pitt), grows out of a "split" to which, I believe, the commentator above refers. In order to make his living the Ed Norton character (he has no real identity) has to turn off his conscience. But at least it makes him sick nonetheless.

    Likewise, outsourcing, importing, neglecting students' learning math and art literacy is itself systematic. It's profitable. Just do some hand wringing for appearances' sake, and business as usual.

  • Posted by skillz on August 7, 2008 at 3:20pm EDT
  • Students attending specialized arts programs are generally excused from any responsibility to understand math and science, however (and presumably), even universities hoping to attract gifted writers, musicians, artists, etc. evaluate all of their applicants on the basis of their entire academic performance, not just in one area, which is to say that students attending an accredited university, particularly in this unfortunate age of ultra-competitiveness for admission to an "elite" school, should arguably have basic, if not intermediate and advanced competence in just about every subject.

    I might also add that writing a "book explaining quantum mechanics to a GENERAL AUDIENCE" is no less demeaning than having an "intellectual" turn his/her nose up at the slightest hint of ignorance in the arts. Go on, Professor, make your book as complicated as hell.

    Kidding aside, I appreciate your observation. I had difficulty with math and science (particularly with science) throughout high school and, as a self-proclaimed intellectual, it is one of my deepest regrets. In college, I took the most rudimentary science requirements and still encountered more problems than I care to articulate. I may be first in line for your book.

  • Import more of Friz?
  • Posted by L.L. on August 7, 2008 at 7:15pm EDT
  • " .. That’s why this system isn’t as serious about education is it claims: firms can always import or outsource .."

    Why .. of course. When a jet airliner needs the calculations to land -- we'll just out-source the solution-development. Or get an aluminum shower. And the value of student loan programs? Just let the college marketing department explain them.

    The original novel "Fight Club" is not even noted; writing is obviously not required. Heck -- don't read the original Beowulf; just watch Angelina Jolie at 58:12:01.

    If "education" is about inability to make optimal decisions with basic math or accurately read and understand complex directions -- America is rapidly becoming No. 1. Secretary Spellings, do what you have to do.

    BTW:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malvern_Hill

  • Innumeracy Of Intellectuals
  • Posted by robzbrob on August 8, 2008 at 8:10am EDT
  • Hear, hear! I'm fed up having Arts/Humanties people thinking they're better than me. They're not - and it's showing more and more these days - and that's good.

  • Fan Of The Arts and Humanities
  • Posted by M&M on August 8, 2008 at 8:40am EDT
  • “ ... better that I,” robzbrob, “ ... better than I.”

  • Does It Pay To Be Ignernt?
  • Posted by M&M on August 8, 2008 at 2:05pm EDT
  • I realize that comments in blogs like this one are frequently thrown together with both little thought and little attention to grammatical accuracy. But, starting at the beginning ...

    ....... NO ............... YES

    ... phenomemon ........ phenomenon

    ... igorance .......... ignorance

    ... triathalon ........ triathlon

    ... igorance .......... ignorance

    ... Spanis .............Spanish

    ... trascripts ........ transcripts

    ... begining .......... beginning

    ... calcuations ....... calculations

    ... embarassing ....... embarrassing

    ... exanding .......... expanding

    ... curiousity ........ curiosity

    ... postive ........... positive

    ... defened ........... defended

    ... ingnorance ........ ignorance

    ... tutering .......... tutoring

    ... theorm ............ theorem

    ... inumeracy ......... innumeracy

    ... Ingorant .......... Ignorant

    ... gobledygook ....... gobbledygook

    ... rigourous ......... rigorous

    ... differance ........ difference

    ... aparthied ......... apartheid

    ... Whenver ........... Whenever

    ... challanging ....... challenging

    ... togeter ........... together

    ... Alxeander ......... Alexander

    ... fundimental ....... fundamental

    ... Politboro ......... Politburo

    ... Freddic ........... Freddie

    ... inevitible ........ inevitable

    ... tournaquet ........ tourniquet

    ... acquinted ......... acquainted

    ... surverval ......... several

    ... basec ............. basic

    ... inrich ............ enrich

    ... aoid .............. avoid

    ... Humanties ......... Humanities

    In each of my syllabi you will find, “One of my prejudices about the manner in which a great many individuals (including students, faculty, deans, etc.) use e-mail is that when they sit in front of an Outlook Express window, they apparently feel free to abandon all rules of composition, syntax, and writing. Another prejudice is that sloppy communication skills – whether written or spoken – are highly correlated with sloppy thinking.”

    If I am right about that, it would seem we need logic (and mathematics) in equal proportion to our need for art and the humanities.

    BTW, i might +, w/o ?, IMHO i am 2G4u.

    TTYL

  • To Mike, L.L. E. Moran: On Human Nature
  • Posted by A.D. on August 8, 2008 at 5:30pm EDT
  • "Thus capitalism drives the employers to do their worst to the employed, and the employed to do the least for them. And it boasts all the time of the incentive it provides to both to do their best! You may ask why this does not end in a deadlock. The answer is it is producing deadlocks twice a day or thereabouts. The reason the capitalist system has worked so far without jamming for more than a few months at a time, and then only in places, is that it has not yet succeeded in making a conquest of human nature so complete that everybody acts on strictly business principles." --George Bernard Shaw

  • Posted by Adrian on August 9, 2008 at 8:20am EDT
  • Liked your commentary.

    Just now I am excited about thiscartoon :-)

  • The Innumeracy of George Bernard Shaw
  • Posted by F.A.S. on August 10, 2008 at 4:25pm EDT
  • Is George Bernard Shaw going to be on the calculus final?

    Why?

  • Sorry, Can't reproduce math symbols here.
  • Posted by Alan Desland on August 11, 2008 at 5:00am EDT
  • I can only spell out three concluding points to, say, Chapter 5 after the math has been demonstrated in the book:

    1. "In the traditional world of abstract formal models, participatory economies deserve to be considered an equally viable alternative to perfectly competitive capitalist and coordinator market and centrally planned economies.

    2.Formal models of participatory economies achieve Pareto optimality under far less restrictive and more realistic assumptions than formal models of market and centrally planned economies.

    3. Realistic capitalist and coordinator economies differ from their formal representations in ways that magnify their failings, while realistic participatory economies differ from their formal representation in ways that enhance their capacity to attain desirable results in fewer steps and at reduced cost" (Michael Albert and Robin Hahnel, _The Political Economy of Participatory Economics_, (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1991): 105-106.

    The question is not just whether students can do calculus, but how some might want to apply it, including alternative economic models. So this is one humanities professor who promotes math/science education, in conjunction with the more literary notion that "Humans are," in Bill Moyers' words, "more than the sum of their material appetites."

    After all, the right-wing notion that the exchange between worker and capitalist is a free exchange is one of the great howlers in the history of ideas.

  • Get With It F.A.S.
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 11, 2008 at 7:40am EDT
  • Where have you been? We got off the subject three or four days ago ... sometime last week. Some of us find George Bernard Shaw, “Just saying ‘No!’ to sub-prime loan contracts”, the two cultures” of C.S. Lewis (I suppose C.S. was looking over C.P. Snow’s shoulder at the time), the downfall of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the pros and cons of Parecon, a review of Brad Pitt’s performance in “Fight Club,” and spelling lessons much more compelling than the topic at hand.

    If you can’t stand the eclecticity, dear friend, get out of the out house. On the other hand, maybe they’re just trying to make Professor Orzel’s point.

  • I Find Nothing Off Topic Here
  • Posted by James W. Gettys on August 12, 2008 at 8:20am EDT
  • Frizbane,
    I'm back. Just perused this fascinating discussion. L.L argues that if people were better at math the sub-prime crisis would not have happened. He's right. The guy from _The Girl in a Swing_ argues that if the public were better educated in general, i.e. had more political savvy--including what recent literary theory adds to political awareness--the Powers that Be could be reigned in from misusing math. Hence the G.B Shaw quote.

    In my opinion, greed runs throughout society, from the top down, and that's what enabled the lenders to take advantage of the borrowers--and both groups to take advantage of taxpayers. Mike sees greed as innate depravity while Desland sees it as institutional, deeply ingrained historical habit which a de-centralized Parecon could alleviate while--as he insists--increasing our freedom. (I have doubts; I'm intrigued.) While Mike and Desland fall into the chicken/egg, Nature vs. Nurture impasse, they are still talking general education, it seems to me: the history of ideas, mathematical and otherwise.

    The film examples both have math in them: main characters are an aircraft engineer and an insurance adjuster. So the whole discussion is about literacy and numeracy and how society APPLES literacy and numeracy and with what political implications.

    Some in the arts and humanities are ashamed that most of their psychic energies, early on, carved certain elaborate sets of engrams in parts of their brains almost at the expense of math parts. I think everybody forgets just how long it took us in youth to learn to write simple, grammatically correct sentences, to spell, and to perform basic math maneuvers. Paradoxically, we also forget how youth itself can speed up that learning process, especially math skills, as in natural language acquisition.

    Postmodernists tell us we live in an increasingly fragmented and fragmenting world where many children don't get the chance to seize on that early suppleness of brain that allows both numeracy and literacy to develop in tandem. Then, as Robert Frost says in "The Road Not Taken," "way leads on to way" and even intellectuals, seemingly, never get to return to that early fork in the road. Pity that road diverged for so many.

  • APPLIES, not APPLES
  • Posted by James W. Gettys on August 12, 2008 at 8:45am EDT
  • M&M: It's hard to write in this box. Then the phone rings or something.

  • I agree - must have math
  • Posted by Anne Taylor on August 12, 2008 at 11:40am EDT
  • I agree wholeheartedly. Even those with no math facility should study it as far as possible as it is vital for so many subjects and all research. Psychology? You need to understand the stats. Art? You need to do your costing if you aren't to starve in a garret. Business? You'll go bankrupt. I have always had to reduce the stats to barcharts to understand them. I loved science and was good at it except for chem in which I couldn't understand the equations, having been taught math very badly throuhghout my schooling. Girls weren't expected to do well - it was a boys' subject. Basic math should be required to school leaving level and physical science, specially biology.

  • Being On The Same Page With Dr Gettys ...
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 12, 2008 at 1:00pm EDT
  • For starters, I am not at all averse to oversimplification .. it would be impossible for us to advance as a species without it. But, Professor Gettys, I certainly can’t go along with all of your wonderful oversimplifications ... and just for example, “if people were better at math the sub-prime crisis would not have happened.” Whew! I own this bridge up in Ketchikan, Alaska that may capture your interest.

    Not to worry though, I’m still on your side. In fact, I believe there is no topic that could be introduced to this discussion that would be outside the domain of mathematics. That’s because everything is mathematics.

    The well-known – if not quite famous – MIT cosmologist, Max Tegmark, said ...

    “I have this sort of crazy-sounding idea that the reason why mathematics is so effective at describing reality is that it is reality. That is the mathematical universe hypothesis: Mathematical things actually exist, and they are actually physical reality.”

    http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/16-is-the-universe-actually-made-of-math

    So there you have it. Even “Kill Bill II,” the “Holy Bible,” “Lady Chatterley’s Lover,” the war against the people of Iraq, “Fight Club,” The Communist Manifesto,” the special theory of relativity, intelligent design, HeadOn commercials, and even “shoes and ships and sealing-wax and cabbages and kings” ... it’s all mathematics. The universe is made of math. There’s no getting off the subject here.

    P.S. I hope you check out Randall Munroe’s wonderful cartoons (MWF) over at xkcd. Number 435 is especially relevant to this discussion.

    http://xkcd.com/435/

    P.P.S. That “little box” that you mentioned actually has a spelling checker ... just right click on it.

  • All the World's a (Math) Stage
  • Posted by James W. Gettys on August 12, 2008 at 2:15pm EDT
  • Prof. Manley, Yes, oversimplifications.

    "APPLES" to "APPLIES" is here a typo/proofreading issue, as distinct from typo/misspelling. Phone rings. I go ahead and hit "submit" without proofreading. I agree with M&M. These are signs of multi-tasking. Nor is multi-tasking glamorous.

    Maybe we all, like the dramatist Shakespeare, do the equivalent of anthropomorphism where our professions are concerned. (Is there a more appropriate term for the phenomenon here? It comes not to mind.) I was told once by a mathematician that the zero was an invention and nowhere exists in the universe. So also mathematics is an institution that does not exist in nature, I was told. Yet math is a nifty code, and can be used to explain, or decode, or trans-code, a lot like nothing else can. And math can go on explaining, whether as finite or as infinite math.

    Or, as you suggest, it was there all along, like a Platonic Ideal, and continues to be discovered.

  • Response To Professor Gettys
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 12, 2008 at 3:00pm EDT
  • Nice!

    We should "do" lunch some day. Is there a good restaurant in Due West?

  • Lunch, Yes. Let "Do"="Have."
  • Posted by James W. Gettys on August 12, 2008 at 4:25pm EDT
  • How would you feel about inviting Professor Desland? He could show the proof in "The Pudding."

  • The Levels of Art and Math
  • Posted by Justin on August 13, 2008 at 2:45pm EDT
  • In reading this article, I found myself pondering the question of what amount of knowledge is considered fundamental in the various disciplines. You speak of those who lack background math skills and contrast them with such math disciplines as analytical geometry. Coming from a liberal arts university (where science was required for all but math for very few), I look back and feel that math was often considered something sufficiently learned in high school. My high school math education went up through calculus and all students were required to complete at least algebra II.

    So, I wonder if algebra II is the requisite level of math study to factor mortgages and the like, thus rendering college math superfluous for those outside math-intensive disciplines.

    Admittedly, on the other hand, I'm not sure I can defend high school level humanities as insufficiently useful and necessitating further study by all in post-secondary institutions. I would almost admit that high school math is more important in a person's adult existence than even high school level analysis of Shakespeare and Bach.

    Of course, the line here may be between that merely utilitarian study of high school math and the "sophisticated" study of post-secondary humanities. Perhaps the current attitude (whether right or wrong) is nothing more than "we have enough math to function, but you don't have enough humanities to be interesting".

  • Response to Justin ...
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on August 13, 2008 at 5:45pm EDT
  • Justin, yours is a terrific question.

    I wish some other mathematicians would jump in here to tell you what they think, but I’m not counting on it. So I’ll try to give you my “quick and dirty” response ... and forgive me for cutting and pasting.

    First, I think for most of us, there are several landmarks in mathematics ...

    1. Know high school Algebra I and Algebra II very well.

    2. Have a strong grasp of high school Plane Geometry (as it was taught, on average, pre-1970 ... i.e. there are proofs galore)

    3. This is from antiquity, but know something about analytical geometry, say, at the level of “Fundamentals of Freshman Mathematics” by Allendoerfer and Oakley. I loved to teach from that book.

    4. Differential and Integral Calculus (learned from a master of graphical representations, but without using a graphing calculator).

    5. Manley’s Excess.

    To answer your question, I think anyone who could, today, make a B on a comprehensive test over the material in 1 and 2 is okay in my book ... but, truth be known, I’d like to say 1, 2, and 3.

    Now, to give you my view of the calculus – and I really love that subject – there follows a transcript of a small part of my dialog with my friend, R.W. Hoyer, where our discussion was in the context of what every social scientist should know about mathematics and statistics. And, by the way, I don’t think it is unreasonable to put science in quotation marks when you write social “science.”

    “[Hoyer]

    I notice that you have focused your attention on statistics. What about mathematics? What about calculus, linear algebra, probability, etc?

    [Manley]

    Good question. I have fairly strong prejudices about that ... and from the perspective of someone who loves theoretical mathematics, teaches courses emphasizing mathematical applications, and reads and studies it.

    Since, in my opinion, calculus is unlike most of the other relevant mathematics courses, I’ll comment on that first. For the vast majority of Ph.D. students in political science, knowledge of calculus is completely unnecessary.

    I made a rough estimate the other day of the number of one-semester courses I have taught in Calculus I, Calculus II, Calculus III (vector or multivariable calculus), Differential Equations, Advanced Calculus for Engineers, and the first two semesters of Real Analysis. The number was well over 100. Yet – and this is the point of my bragging – in my lifetime I have never used calculus to solve a real-world problem; i.e., one that had meaning for anyone who was not taking one of my courses. Furthermore – and it pains me greatly to say this – the modern computational methods that are available today (Mathematica, Maple, etc.), greatly reduce the necessity of knowing very much about the structure of the calculus.

    I have shared that sentiment with many of my mathematician friends, and they generally agree that is their experience too.

    [Hoyer]

    So you were convinced by Joiner’s argument?

    [Manley]

    Not in the least. I would encourage every young person to consider taking two or three semesters of calculus. But if I were advising a beginning Ph.D. student in political science, I would ask, ‘What’s the point? ... why should you bother to take a course in calculus?’ And I’d expect to follow that question with some specific questions about the student’s immediate and long-term research objectives.

    Just by way of example, if I were a political science Ph.D. student studying multivariate statistical analysis, and I came upon a particular derivation that required a partial derivative or a definite integral – one that was not, at that moment, right there at the outer surface of the frontal lobe of my cerebrum – I would say, ‘Okay, I can accept that.’ move on, and not be the worst for wear. And guess what? ... there will not be the least loss in my ability to understand and apply the statistical concept by my unwillingness to back up and recall everything I used to know about differentiation or integration. I would go so far as to suggest that if my professor insisted that we examine that derivation together, s/he would merely be demonstrating that hir priorities were all out of whack. I mean, really ...

    Mathematics courses that I would encourage every undergraduate interested in being a social scientist to pursue are, in order of importance, (1) foundations of mathematics (2nd year), (2) foundations of logic, (3) linear algebra, (4) finite mathematics, and (5) operations research. Of course, every undergraduate student of mathematics is required to take two or three semesters of calculus before they begin taking real mathematics courses.

    I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but, in recent years, many mathematics departments have designed and introduced a one-semester course in the foundations of mathematics for sophomores. The point of this course is to avoid the quite unfortunate – yet ubiquitous – circumstance of prospective mathematics’ majors starting their programs with straight As in three or four semesters of calculus and differential equations before taking their first “real” mathematics course, only to discover later that they neither loved nor had an aptitude for (real) mathematics.

    You probably know that more than a few philosophy departments patch together a potpourri of the topics mentioned above under the rubric, ‘Critical Thinking,’ and God do I ever hate both that phrase and their courses. If you’re an undergraduate, take the courses ... not a watered down potpourri of this and that. And be sure to take a first-rate, two-semester course in applied statistics and data analysis.”

    So, Justin, I’d say that if you don’t have a special reason to take the calculus sequence, but you’d like to think you knew enough about mathematics to pass yourself off as an educated person – and assuming your background in high school algebra and geometry are solid -- take one-semester courses in (1) symbolic logic, (2) the foundations of mathematics (Carol Schumacher’s “Chapter Zero” will work), (3) a really good applied math course like finite mathematics, and (4) one or two semesters of applied statistics.

    Everything else is cream on the strawberries.

  • Posted by Helen DeWitt on August 31, 2008 at 8:55am EDT
  • I think part of the problem is that mathematics and the sciences are much more vulnerable to the quality of teaching in school. If you hate the English literature you're made to read in school, or you hate the way it's taught, it's obvious how to explore your own tastes outside school - it's obvious that there's much more variety than what you meet in the classroom. The mathematics taught in school, on the other hand, is always confined to a very small number of topics. A book like T. W. Körner's The Pleasures of Counting gives a better idea of the range of subjects mathematicians might pursue. Even Erich Segal's The Chemistry Maths Book, which does not offer TWK's wealth of introductory stories and case studies, is much better than the average high school text book at presenting a variety of topics.

    Most people, I take it, would not blame a student who found The Scarlet Letter dull but loved Absalom, Absalom! But it's perfectly possible to find Bernoulli series entertaining and yet be bored by solving for the slope of a line. Seems to me it's easier to discover Faulkner on one's own.

    On the subject of being able to talk about art and not knowing where to start, I think a good place to start is A C Danto's The Transfiguration of the Commonplace, a book on the philosophy of art which covers artists ranging from Rembrandt to Warhol. ACD raises the question: How is it possible for physically indistinguishable objects to be different works of art? How is it possible for physically indistinguishable objects to fall in different categories, one a work of art, one not? (A famous example of the latter is Duchamp's Fountain: Duchamp took a urinal from a lot manufactured at a factory and turned it into a work of art by, well, giving it the title "Fountain" and submitting it for a competition. Like its brothers, it is white, shiny, of porcelain; unlike them it can be said to be witty, impertinent, iconoclastic...) A wonderful book.

  • Posted by Steve Mayer , Associate Professor and Chair at University of Portland on September 8, 2008 at 3:20pm EDT
  • Amen brother! Having been raised in a working class home, majoring in chemistry as an undergraduate and spending the better part of the past 25 years as a physical chemist in academia, I still find my knowledge of the arts, humanities, and social sciences to be lacking. I wholeheartedly embrace the ideal of being a lifelong learner and I have worked very hard to fill in the gaps in my intellectual training (I do enjoy classical music and modern art). So I am perplexed and troubled when some of our colleagues in non-STEM disciplines dismiss the necessity of being literate in math and science. That said, I do have some colleagues who ask insightful questions and engage in dialog with me about my research. It gives me hope that they are encouraging their students to explore how the universe works from the perspective of a scientist. A former math professor of mine once said, "anyone who has not taken a course in calculus has not been liberally educated."

  • innumeracy in lots of areas
  • Posted by Dale Flier at Roanoke-Benson CUSD on September 8, 2008 at 3:40pm EDT
  • As a writing instructor, I could make similar observations about college-educated professionals who can't write cogently. That same phenomenon is probably true for all the disciplines; we are exposed to math, to science, to literature, to writing, to music, and so on, but our exposure is cursory. For example, I probably have the same number of credit hours as any other MA grad, but do I remember much about mathematics? No. It just wasn't memorable. That lack of impact may indicate a flaw in math education all across our system. So much of what we learn is taught in isolation. I remember solving equations and never discussing the applicability of those equations. In fairness, the same is undoubtedly true for non-English majors who had to read Keats. Yeah, everybody read Keats, but we may not have been show why we should care. Certainly, that's true for how science is typically taught in K-12 schools in the system we have now.

  • Posted by Adrian Ivakhiv on September 8, 2008 at 4:45pm EDT
  • Actually, confusing Bach with Beethoven is more like confusing Galileo with Darwin. And confusing Darwin with Dawkins is like confusing Mahler with, well, maybe Arvo Part. The way to figure these things out is through a knowledge of history -- something that all intellectuals, whether scientists or humanists, should have. Bach *sounds* baroque (i.e., early modern), just as does Galileo. Darwin *sounds* like a Victorian gentleman-scientist. I doubt that any English professor would mistake a paragraph of Darwin's with one penned by Dawkins; we all read, and we all know a bit about history (i.e., historical periods and their respective styles of thought). Wouldn't the same be true of scientists?