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Studying the Inhumanities

December 19, 2007

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The United States does not torture. We have been told as much by the president, and more than once, in terms that are clear, forceful, unqualified. Even (so one must surmise) categorical. If the United States permits an interrogation technique, then it cannot be torture. Q.E.D.!

And so it is very disagreeable to have to quote statements such as the following: "Waterboarding is a torture technique that has its history rooted in the Spanish Inquisition. In 1947, the U.S. prosecuted a Japanese military officer for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II. Waterboarding inflicts on its victims the terror of imminent death. And as with all torture techniques, it is, therefore, an inherently flawed method for gaining reliable information."

The nattering nabob of negativism in this case happens to be writing in Armed Forces Journal, which might be described as something like a trade journal for the U.S. military. One notes that the comment, published recently, is framed not in moral terms, but strictly with reference to torture's failure to meet the industry's needs: "In short, it doesn’t work. That blunt truth means all U.S. leaders, present and future, should be clear on the issue."

Well, it's a little late for that now, of course. Jameel Jaffer and Amrit Singh, both of the American Civil Liberties Union, have recently edited a volume called Administration of Torture: A Documentary History from Washington to Abu Ghraib and Beyond (Columbia University Press) that collects government memoranda from 2002 through 2005. They were selected from more than 100,000 pages of material released under the Freedom of Information, though only after litigation.

They add up to an account of how official talk of the "New Paradigm" after 9/11 led American forces to condone acts that would be would be be called torture if anyone else in the world did them. Perhaps we shouldn't get into semantics. But then again, even the expression "New Paradigm" seems a bit evasive. While John Milton was a bit inconsistent as a libertarian, Paradise Lost offers a plainspoken gloss on the thinking reflected in the documents gathered in the Columbia volume:

So spake the Fiend, and with necessitie,
The Tyrants plea, excus'd his devilish deeds.

Jameel Jaffer, one of the editors of Administration of Torture, answered a few questions by e-mail. A transcript of the exchange follows.

Q:Your introduction states that the prohibition of torture is "jus cogens." A puzzled layman turning to The Penguin Dictionary of International Relations discovers that this term "refers to a body of principles or norms in international law which override and supercede others" -- such that no treaty, for example, can be in violation of it. Piracy and genocide are prohibited by the same terms. But according to the same dictionary's account, "the precise application of jus cogens is not universally agreed upon."

Does international law include a clear, sharp definition of the criteria for torture? A line where it is distinguished from the kind of vigorous and disagreeable questioning of enemy combatants that is bound to happen during wartime? Or is this a matter in which "the precise application of jus cogens is not universally agreed upon"?

A: Everyone, including the Bush administration, agrees that the law prohibits torture. Torture is proscribed by the Geneva Conventions and the Convention Against Torture. It is also proscribed by the U.S. torture statute and the U.S. war crimes statute. I don't think anyone seriously argues that torture is anything other than a jus cogens norm. A problem arose in 2002, though, because the Office of Legal Counsel issued legal opinions that defined torture exceedingly narrowly -- vanishingly narrowly, in fact.

The OLC's unconscionably narrow definition of torture allowed the Bush administration to adopt interrogation methods that went far beyond those that had previously been considered acceptable. It's important to recognize, though, that the dispute was not over whether torture was illegal; it was over what kinds of methods would constitute torture. The U.S. torture statute defines torture to mean any act "specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering."

What the OLC did in 2002 was to decide that methods like forcing prisoners into stress positions, waterboarding them, confining them in freezing cold cells, etc. didn't amount to torture. It concluded, absurdly, that an interrogation method would amount to torture only if it caused pain equivalent to that caused by organ failure or death. And it made the argument that even if interrogators engaged in torture, they couldn't be held criminally liable if they were acting under the president's authority as commander in chief.

It's worth pointing out that the Geneva Conventions proscribe not just torture but also cruel, inhuman, and degrading (CID) treatment. In 2002, though, the Bush administration took the position that al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners weren't protected by the Geneva Conventions -- not even by the most basic protections enshrined in "Common Article 3." Ultimately Congress enacted new statutes to make even clearer that CID was illegal. The Bush administration then did for "CID" what it had previously done for "torture": it just redefined the phrase so that the phrase wouldn't encompass the interrogation methods that it wanted to use. We're in court now arguing that the OLC's 2005 memos about CID should be released to the public.

Q: Some of the bureaucratic crosstalk among these documents can be a challenge to keep straight. There are exchanges among the Department of Defense, the Department of Justice, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Other material here quite unambiguously documents inhumane and even lethal treatment of prisoners. Most of that testimony seems to have been gathered in 2004 and '05, following the outcry over Abu Ghraib.

Do earlier documents show that reports of such treatment went up the chain of command? Or did things operate on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis, so to speak?

A: One of the most useful sets of records we obtained through the FOIA came from the FBI. The records I'm thinking of are e-mails and memos written by FBI agents who were stationed at Guantanamo in 2002 and 2003. The e-mails and memos document the agents' concerns with the harsh methods that were then being used by military interrogators. Towards the end of 2002, FBI agents began to express these concerns to their superiors, and on several occasions representatives of the FBI met with General Geoffrey Miller (who was then the commander of the military base at Guantanamo) to convey their concerns to him.

But the problem was not that military interrogators were exceeding the authority they had been given. The problem was that they were exercising the authority they had been given. They had been authorized to hold prisoners in stress positions, deprive them of light and auditory stimuli, strip them naked, isolate them for weeks at a time, and use military dogs to terrorize them. When military interrogators used those methods against prisoners, they weren't inventing the methods ad hoc. The methods had been approved by Defense Secretary Rumsfeld.

Q: Your Freedom of Information Act request (and subsequent litigation) led to the release of more than 100,000 pages of material. It sounds like this might be the tip of the iceberg. Two years ago the CIA destroyed videotapes of the interrogation of Al Qaeda figures, and recordings of the questioning of Jose Padilla have been "lost."

How much do you know about the kinds of material you are being denied access to? Are you aware of documentation that may already have gone down the memory hole?

A: Donald Rumsfeld famously distinguished between the "known unknowns" and the "unknown unknowns". Here, the known unknowns -- the records we know that the government is withholding -- include photographs of prisoner abuse at facilities other than Abu Ghraib; a September 2001 Presidential directive that authorized the CIA to set up a system of secret prisons in Eastern Europe and elsewhere; and an August 2002 Justice Department memorandum that advised the CIA about the legality of waterboarding and other extreme interrogation methods.

We learned several weeks ago that the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel is withholding three legal memos, all written in May of 2005, that narrowly construe the laws against cruel treatment and contend, wrongly, that waterboarding and other extreme methods can be used without offending those laws. When we learn of documents like the May 2005 memos, it's difficult not to wonder what else is still out there -- what unknown unknowns will come to light tomorrow.

Q: You write: "Senior administration officials, perhaps emboldened by Congress's failure to conduct any serious inquiry into past abuse, continue to violate domestic and international law." This volume reads like a dossier for a trial in the Hague. Suppose that did come to pass. Who would end up in the dock? Who is most culpable? (We're speaking hypothetically, here, of course, since that outcome does seem unlikely.)

A: I think any investigation would have to look at the very highest levels of the Bush administration. White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales (who later became Attorney General) wrote legal memos that were intended to allow interrogators to use inhumane methods and to insulate interrogators -- and officials -- from war crimes charges. John Yoo, a lawyer for the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, wrote legal memoranda that allowed the use of torture. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld authorized interrogators to use inhumane methods at Guantanamo, and Lieut. General Ricardo Sanchez authorized interrogators to use similar methods in Iraq. Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller supervised the use of inhumane methods at Guantanamo and oversaw the "Gitmo-ization" of Abu Ghraib.

And it was President Bush, of course, who directed the CIA to set up secret detention centers abroad, allowed the CIA and Defense Department to adopt methods that in some cases amounted to torture, and said that al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners should be treated humanely only to the extent consistent with "military necessity." All the available evidence suggests that principal responsibility for the abuse and torture of prisoners belongs not to small groups of "rogue soldiers" but to senior officials in the Bush administration.

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Comments on Studying the Inhumanities

  • Fox And Scorpion All Over Again
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on December 19, 2007 at 10:30am EST
  • Okay Scott, I’ll keep working at this, but this is the second time in three weeks I’ve had to remind you to preface your essay with the story of the Fox and the Scorpion ...

    http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2007/11/28/mclemee

    Linking torture to obtaining vital information is not only part of the picture, it’s probably, at best, a relatively small part of it.

    I’ll start with a closely related phenomenon, rape. If you cast rape in the context of sexual gratification, you will miss the point. Rape is about power ... and, in particular the power that intellectually challenged, probably psychotic individuals exercise over innocent victims. The sex was just okay, but ohhh that power! I could go on, but I will conclude by saying we (especially male homo sapiens) just love that stuff. It’s who we are, the products of 200,000 years of human evolution (don’t forget Scorpion).

    If you cast torture in the context of military and police intelligence, you will miss precisely the same point. Torture is about power ... and, in particular the power that intellectually challenged, probably psychotic individuals exercise over (waaaay more often than not) innocent victims. The information we get is no great shakes, but ohhh that power! We love that stuff; it turns us on. And if you doubt that, just post those photographs of citizens/representatives of the United States torturing innocent victims at Abu Ghraib on your refrigerator for a couple of weeks. Those folks were having a ball. “Damn, this is fun! Send someone out for a couple of six packs. Hey Scorpion, you got a joint? I can tell you I’ll be ready for some good sex when this is over.”

    That’s who we are. It’s our nature. Sex and intelligence are just excuses for exercising what is our nature ... and, as we’ve learned in recent years, some political regimes are much more comfortable with it than others. It has taken us 200,000 years to get where we are today, and maybe if we’re around another 200,000 years, we will be a lot more “civilized” than we are at the moment ... perhaps more like the dolphins.

  • Tortuous Talk
  • Posted by J A DeLater on December 20, 2007 at 12:00pm EST
  • Those not yet committed to a parti pris position (in evident contrast to the above correspondent's, editors' and first blogger's "slam-dunk" views) on the torture vs coercive interrogation debate and on the question of the applicability of Geneva Convention rules to captured terrorist suspects might profit from considering an alternative view of these matters expressed by an Australian specialist in Asian Studies, Paul Monk, at austhink.org ("Capone or Malone?: Terrorism and the Use of Coercive Interrogation").

  • a parti pris humanist
  • Posted by Jeff D. Cronk , Associate Professor at Gonzaga University on December 21, 2007 at 7:40pm EST
  • OK, Dr. DeLater, I'll bite. A trip to austhink.org reveals an apparently commercial organization (belying the "dot org" suffix) marketing some kind of algorithmic method of assessing the structure of rational arguments (termed "argument mapping"). Not having the patience to wade through the rather opaque website to find Paul Monk's writings, I eventually resorted to google. The link to the article referred to is http://www.austhink.org/monk/torture.htm. Monk's biographical information on this site reveals he has a doctorate in International Relations and studied Cold War counterinsurgency campaigns, and has worked with Australian defence agencies.

    The article itself makes the case that concerns addressed by Michael Ratner, President of the US Center for Constitutional Rights, in his book, "The Torture Papers: The Road to Abu Ghraib" (and presumably, by extension, those raised in Jaffer and Singh's volume) are "seriously overwrought". The premises that Monk starts from are that (i) The US faces a national security crisis of a novel and extremely dangerous nature; (ii) the President has the Constitutional authority, in such circumstances, to take extraordinary measures for the public safety, and (iii) existing conventions on the treatment of prisoners would directly inhibit effective interrogation. Boiling it down further, Monk seems to be saying that since they - the terrorists - don't play by the rules, we shouldn't feel obligated to do so either.

    On the first premise, my response is that if the defenders of human rights are overwrought in their concerns, that offense is insignificant in comparison to the collective pants-wetting that has occurred in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Even otherwise highly intelligent and erudite observers, such as Christopher Hitchens lost their perspective. Of course we were all pretty unnerved in the immediate aftermath, but now that we have had six years to reflect on these events, it seems clear that we have overreacted to the actual danger. It has not escaped my attention that such a hyping of the terrorist threat plays into the hands of the polities, and defense industry interests who stand to gain power and wealth thereby. I grew up in a time when schoolchildren regularly participated in "duck and cover" drills, as if hiding under a desk could afford protection from the effects of a nuclear blast. More than once I suffered the effects of nightmares of a nuclear holocaust. Talk about an existential threat! That actually posed by this rather ragtag band of jihadists hiding in caves of Afghanistan and NW Pakistan pales in comparison. Of course, we were told over and over again that the communists "don't play by the rules", so we had to give up some of our civil liberties to effectively combat this unprecedented threat to our American way of life. Other arguments could be made here - terrorism is not a "novel" phenomenon, Monk seemingly ignores the "jus cogens" case against CID treatment of prisoners, and the lack of information about the full extent of abuses occurring under US authority. The one area in which the Bush administration is seemingly effective is in withholding of information and cover-up of abuses. How much more will come to light, and will we ever know the full extent of abuse?

    On the second premise, Monk makes much of Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus during the civil war, and quotes Michelle Malkin approvingly regarding Japanese internment during WWII. In the first instance, correct me if I am wrong, for I am not a historian by trade, but Lincoln did not order the torture those who were detained. At the conclusion of the war, the Supreme Court ordered the restoration of habeas corpus. Just when will the GWOT be won, at which time we can expect the restoration of internationally-accepted norms of prisoner treatment? Looking back on Japanese internment, most everyone seems to agree it was excessive and unnecessary (Malkin notwithstanding), but again it was a short-term response and somewhat understandable under the circumstances. The Civil War was an historical episode much more threatening to the nation's continued existence than the current outbreak of terrorist activity, and the degree of adherence to Constitutional principles seems remarkable.

    With respect to premise three, suffice it to say that it is at best a dubious proposition, and I am unaware of any unequivocal case where torture has saved actual lives that could not have been saved in any other way.
    It is disconcerting to me that so much of the case for torture relies on extreme hypothetical cases, such as those portrayed on the TV series "24", and echoed by Monk's references to "Dirty Harry" and "The Untouchables". I will admit that a nuclear bomb in the hands of a jihadist is a most grave concern. There is little indication however that the Bush administration is addressing this potential in an effective, coherent manner. Label me a "parti pris" skeptic of the idea that we can capture the essence of all rational argument, let alone ethics, within an algorithm if you like, but as the computer scientists say, "garbage in, garbage out". I suppose that by adjusting the input parameters, it could be shown by argument mapping that the Bush administration's decision to compromise Valerie Plame Wilson's identity as a CIA operative (whose purview was weapons of mass destruction, by the way), along with her sources, was a completely rational decision.
    Monk argues that we need a paradigm shift, and I agree, although the paradigm shift I envision is more along the lines of what Einstein was getting at when he said, reflecting on the advent of the nuclear age, that we have to learn to think in a new way. Although the apologists for the GWOT approach howl in derision upon the suggestion, it stands to reason that we ought to reflect carefully on the roots of the jihadist mentality. I've read Paul Berman, for example, and I agree with him that the rhetoric and ideology associated with it is truly dangerous. But we have to do everything possible to understand this phenomenon and offer a clear alternative. With our current approach, we are demonstrating the principle that we magnify that which we most strenuously and unintelligently oppose - we are creating more of what we abhor by the torture and humiliation of innocents. Most of all, we need to grow out of our fear-based reactionary responses to the world as it is and have the courage of our convictions, which acknowledge and celebrate our common humanity.

  • Understanding Roots
  • Posted by Apologetically Inured on December 21, 2007 at 9:05pm EST
  • Thanks for the well-crafted argument. As to roots . . .

    My guess is that you won’t see suicide bombing (Timothy McVeigh parked his truck and got out of the way) because the western Christian world emerged as economically, politically, and militarily dominant in the last 500 years, so it doesn’t need martyrs, except that McVeigh got caught and was martyred anyway.

    If you want to get a sense of why some in the “Middle East” feel a deep and abiding insult, especially to their religion, there are all kinds of scholarship that cover everything from economic, political and military history to cultural history. Edward Said’s “Orientalism” and “Culture and Empire” come to mind.

    My guess is that a few, a very few, Muslim groups have, in the 20th and 21rst century, “coped” by falling in on themselves so to speak, constructing a version of Islam that is not only anachronistic, but psychologically regressed as well. Yes, it is dangerous in and of itself without construing the threat out of proportion such that our own government becomes even more dangerous to the world and to us. Sorry, I can recall neither the book nor the author in recent years arguing that suicide bombing appears endemic, under certain circumstances, to being occupied by a foreign power, and it cuts across religious lines.

    For a sense of how some may be experiencing the unwelcome dominance from without we have only to look at the film “Independence Day” (1996). If not quite the physical damage of the alien space ships then the sense of devastation to one’s meaning system may be perceived as it is portrayed so graphically in that film. Remember that Randy Quaid finally, successfully, flies his fighter jet into the underbelly opening of an alien space ship and detonates a nuclear device: a suicide bombing that elicits spectators' cheers.

    The glory of suicide bombing is indeed found in the Judeo-Christian tradition. As a Southern Baptist I remember my Sunday School teachers celebrating Samson when he pushed the pillars and brought down Philistine’s temple on himself and innocent children inside—all for the glory of God. That, of course, is only a story. But under the right circumstances, groups of people who have gotten really twisted in their thinking can indeed come to enact such stories in real life. That response to history does not make it right. It’s just that, were the situation reversed in the last 500 years, and some tradition other than the Judeo-Christian one was world-dominant in so many ways, who knows? There might be such thing as a Christian strapping explosives to his or her body and. . . . And the “civilized world” would see Christianity itself as flawed, depraved even.

    So the writer above, I think, is correct. The issue is what might be done to help break, rather than perpetuate a pattern of human tragedy. Torture, or even "tough interrogations, is decidedly not the way.

  • Posted by CCPhysicist on December 22, 2007 at 9:10pm EST
  • A better example from the movies would be the film "The Battle of Algiers" (English title, film is in French). I saw it on TCM a few months ago and there is a very good summary of the story on their web site at http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/title.jsp?stid=68197

    This movie is stunning today. It is like watching the occupation of Iraq in microcosm, right down to the French Colonel using waterboarding to get key information from the terrorists. The French won, for awhile.

  • Reply to Professor Cronk
  • Posted by J A DeLater on December 23, 2007 at 10:35am EST
  • Thanks for providing the above link to the Paul Monk article (I've yet to master this skill). And thanks also for your contribution to reasoned debate on the issues of the lawful treatment and interrogation of captured combatants in the war on terror.

    My characterization of some of the above commentary as parti pris positions I think correct: from Scott McLemee's tendentious lead-in to Jameel Jaffer's proffered desiderata of war crimes indictments issued against US commanding generals, the former Secretary of Defense, the former Attorney General, the US president, and Professor Yoo to the first blogger's clumsy sarcasms casting our military personnel as eager participants in a power-intoxicating sado-sexual game to the pedestrian "it's-all-our-fault" remarks of "Unapologetically Inured" in predictably citing the deeply-flawed and convincingly-refuted anti-American ressentiment work of Edward Said.

    My reference to The Paul Monk article aimed to provide some countervailing view to what seemed up to then an egregiously one-sided presentation of the issues. Your description of Monk's premises seems a reasonable summation of several of his points, although your third (terrorists don't play by the rules so we shouldn't either) I believe needs qualification. What Monk argues is that to qualify for Geneva Convention protections of captured combatants, there are several criteria combatants must meet (Monk cites four--including treatment reciprocity--all of which captured terrorist suspects do not meet). That terrorists' atrocities against and on-going threats to our and our allies' overseas military, civilian, and diplomatic personnel as well as to our and our allies' homeland populations are not at all limited to a "rather ragtag band of jihadists hiding in caves of Afghanistan and NW Pakistan" should be evident from a survey of terrorist attacks and foiled attacks of the last twenty years and thus unnecessary to refute.

    On your remarks and reminiscences concerning the Cold War, hindsight affords us immense advantages now, though a quick review of the events of this period, from the brutal Soviet oppression and exploitation of Eastern Europe to the Korean War to the mass Chinese Communist purges, starvations, and pogroms to the nuclear stand-off of the Cuban Missile Crisis and beyond should be sufficient to remind us of the brutal expansionist menace communist totalitarianism represented (the East Asian chapter of this story seems yet unfinished). But perhaps now some self-indulgence in anxious "existential" memories of the Cold War is understandable, however singular.

    Points concerning the torture vs coercive interrogation issue (the terms adopted by contending parties tend to indicate their positions on the issue) often focus on what constitutes torture (even Jaffer initially concedes this point in the interview). However, after referring to acknowledged abuses by interrogators in your third paragraph, you seem to opt out of this debate (mind that some would characterize some techniques designed to train our military personnel as "torture", e.g., sleep deprivation, humiliation, exposure to cold) by simply referring to "torture" (the petitio principii--this flaw might also be applied to your description of interrogated combatants as "innocents"). Since nearly all parties to the debate eschew torture (including our military and civilian leaders), it seems this question cannot profitably be ignored.

    On the issues of whether torture or coercive interrogation is ever justified as well as whether it is or has been at times efficacious, one might profitably consider for a start the writings of and exchanges between Alan Dershowitz and Michael Ignatieff or the points argued in the law journal articles of Mirko Bagaric and Julie Clarke and the rejoinders of Philip Rumney. Perhaps melodramas on terrorist themes do help present concrete dilemmas of potentially in extremis cases, though much of the debate on these issues seems to focus on routine procedures and whether incarceration of and judgment on terrorist suspects should be effected by military tribunals or civilian courts.

    Like you, I found Paul Berman's writings on liberalism and terrorism instructive on the dilemmas of how successfully to counter threats to our freedoms and liberties by those who would undeniably destroy them without unduly restricting these freedoms and liberties. But I am skeptical of the assertion that our ways of approaching global jihadist terrorism has completely ignored the "jihadist mentality." Some specifically proposed correctives (though hardly the self-inflicted Western auto-da-fe of "Unapologetically Inured") would be welcome here.

  • Grand Theory
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on December 26, 2007 at 11:00am EST
  • I have been wracking my brain in search of the parti pris position of which I have been accused. I suppose it is this: the male members of the species homo sapiens (wise humans), after evolving from a rather “primitive” state 200,000 years ago, still have imbedded in their natures a hostility that is frequently directed, not only at members of other species, but at members of their own species. In that light, I claimed ...

    1. Rape is only marginally about sexual gratification. It is largely about the power that intellectually challenged, probably psychotic individuals (those of our species who find themselves in the first quartile of any reasonable scale of “civilization”) exercise over innocent victims.

    2. Torture is only marginally about gathering information. It is largely about the power that intellectually challenged, probably psychotic individuals (those of our species who find themselves in the first quartile of any reasonable scale of “civilization”) exercise over innocent victims.

    On the other hand, it strikes me that DeLater has his own parti pris position, that being about the nature of terrorism.

    One might argue that George W. Bush (and I imagine DeLater) have it right; to wit, “Americans are asking, why do [the terrorists] hate us? They hate what we see right here in this [U.S. Senate] chamber -- a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.”

    Of course there are others who argue that the root cause of terrorism is the deprivation of national, civic, and individual rights (and I might add, often by virtue of the historic imperialism of Democratic nations)

    http://www.safe-democracy.org/docs/CdM-Series-on-Terrorism-Vol-1.pdf

    Then of course – and I would not push this too far –we could argue that ...

    3. Terrorism is only marginally about hating other’s freedoms or redressing deprivation. It is largely about the power that intellectually challenged, probably psychotic individuals (those of our species who find themselves in the first quartile of any reasonable scale of “civilization”) exercise over innocent victims.

    In the spirit of my usual clumsy sarcasm I must ask, “Don’t you just love grand theories?”

    In any event, I am captivated by DeLater’s and Monk’s euphemistic use of “coercive interrogation” for “torture.” From a very practical perspective – i.e., when we get right down to strapping that that guy to a water board – I would be curious to know approximately when coercive interrogation stops and torture begins ... or is it all a matter of context and intent?

  • How do we get information from captured suspects?
  • Posted by MSchwabe on December 27, 2007 at 9:35pm EST
  • I have read the opinions above. How then is the most effective means of interrogation? How do we get information from captured suspects? Is it by applying emotional and psychological stresses? Is it with physical duress? How is key factual information culled from captured terrorists? Aren't further attacks being prevented due to the unpleasant methods the government uses? Is criticism only levied upon the Bush administration for our military's comparatively mild techniques (compared to the harsh and disgusting beheadings we've seen)? Terrorists only understand terror, right? Therefore, with that line of thinking, shouldn't our government shed a bit of humanity to use all methods available on these animals to undermine their terror to protect U.S. citizens?

  • Can’t Beat That Logic
  • Posted by Frizbane Manley on December 28, 2007 at 11:10am EST
  • Well Professor Schwabe, I don’t think anyone is going to argue with you ... you’re logic is air-tight. For example, let’s take ...

    “Terrorists only understand terror, right? Therefore, with that line of thinking, shouldn’t our government shed a bit of humanity to use all methods available on these animals to undermine their terror to protect U.S. citizens?”

    We’ll reduce that to ...

    If [terrorists only understand terror], then [we should use terror (to protect U.S. citizens)].

    I take that to be an “If p, then q” statement, and I don’t think there’s any doubt about the fact that p = “terrorists only understand terror” is false. In fact, it may be stupid as well, but I won’t push that.

    Now with an “If p, then q” conditional and a false antecedent, p, we may be certain that “If p, then q” is true. Unfortunately (for you), that doesn’t assure us your conclusion, q, is true.

    Damn, all of this logic just wears me out. I’ll tell you what. Read the articles whose URLs are below, become an expert on the effectiveness of torture for its intended purpose (that would be intelligence, not having fun), and get back to me with how it works out.

    Finally, you not only got me on the logic, you also got me on the politics of torture. It’s not that I have ever been critical of anyone spending an afternoon torturing someone. It’s just that I imagine it will be a lot more fun than it will be productive (i.e., we’ll be able to exhibit our power over a helpless victim, albeit a terrorist, but the victim will probably not cough up any reliable information). On the other hand, I must admit that when Bill Clinton ordered the torture of a terrorist I thought “no big deal,” but just let me hear about “W” engaging in exactly the same activity and I’ll be screaming bloody murder.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/13/AR2007121301303.html

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7516880/page/2/

    http://www.alternet.org/rights/28585/

    http://robinkirk.com/wordpress/archives/75

    http://www.psotd.com/posts/1192558300.shtml

    http://dir.salon.com/story/opinion/feature/2004/06/21/torture_algiers/index2.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,,593078,00.html