Ep. 22: A Model to Watch

Sound clip: This episode is sponsored by Cengage. From online to HyFlex learning, Cengage supports your changing pedagogy at scale. Learn more at cengage.com/institutional. That’s C-E-N-G-A-G-E.com/institutional.

Paul Fain: Hello, welcome to The Key with IHE, a podcast focused on how vulnerable college students are faring in the pandemic. I’m Paul Fain, the host and a contributing editor at Inside Higher Ed. The College of Health Care Professions is the largest provider of allied health graduates in Texas. Its graduates are mostly Latino, Black, and lower income. Most are working adults. I spoke with Eric Bing, the CEO of CHCP, to talk about how the college’s model has held up amid the crisis.

Sound clip: What we have seen is, first of all, just a true gratitude and thankfulness that we did not stop their education because most, a lot of other schools did. And they are so happy to have that continuity because it is so hard to start up again once you stop.

Paul Fain: Bing talked about the stackability of CHCP’s credentials or how they build on each other without students losing credits or time. He also gave his take on how higher ed more broadly can better serve adult students.

Sound clip: The problem is, is there are not enough colleges that have really built education specifically for adult learners with complicated lives at this point. And it’s hard because you structurally have to change so much.

Paul Fain: Let’s get to the conversation.

Paul Fain: So I’m here with Eric Bing. Thanks so much for doing this, Eric.

Eric Bing: Great to be here.

Paul Fain: So if you wouldn’t mind starting off with just explaining the CHCP model and how it works for folks.

Eric Bing: So sure, Paul, I’m happy to do so. So the College of Health Care Professions is the largest provider of allied health graduates to the state of Texas. And if you look at our demographic, we’re like 59% Hispanic, 23% African American, half our students are 25 and older, and really only 12% are out of high school. They also come out of very difficult backgrounds. Average income when they find us is really in the $9,000 to $15,000 range. So these are people who are living day to day. So what we really have done is over the last six years is we have completely changed our model to provide relevance for our student. If you’re living day to day, it’s very hard to fit into a regular educational structure that, you know, in a lot of ways goes back 500 years. And you need something that gives you that flexibility to deal with work and life. And like Strada has shown, you know, the number one reason people drop is they can’t balance school and work. I think also child care is a huge part of it. We see it, but it’s a big one. But the other piece of it is, is what we have found is if you break up education, make it stackable, start with certifications that have national certs within them, then be able to bulk transfer that into associates program into the bachelor’s. And we don’t offer four-year bachelors anymore. It’s only completion programs. And if you build that, we also provide a lot of flexibility by doing flipped classroom adaptive learning. If you’re a single mom and you’ve been working all day, two jobs, put the kids to bed, and it’s 10 o’clock and you’ve been assigned three hours of reading. Let’s face it, it’s just not going to happen. It wouldn’t happen for me, Paul. I don’t know about you, but it wouldn’t happen for me. So, but if you do adaptive learning at the end and e-books and things that work for them, they can get the knowledge so they can still be successful when they graduate. And then the other piece of it is career readiness. Our students are looking for a career. It isn’t just about graduation or self-actualization. We’re a lot farther down in Maslow’s hierarchy. So what we do is from day one, we’re working with them on career readiness. And it is really unfair for us to assume that they would have any idea how they should interact or be successful in a professional career if nobody in their family has ever been in one or they’re the first to go to school. Professional settings are very different, and we’re healthcare, which is even more different. And the last piece of it is really wraparound services. And for that, that is me. Meaning being very connected. This is if a student isn’t in class, doesn’t matter if it’s online or ground back when we had ground, we call them, we check in, we’re there if there’s issues with all sorts of things from domestic violence to homelessness to food safety issues to child care. Do we solve all of them? No, we have partnerships throughout in our community and other programs, but the point is, is we stay connected. So that kind of gives you a view of how we look at education. And because really what we’re doing is building a program that works for adult learners with complicated lives.

Paul Fain: So I can see how the current crisis, you all would have been set up in a lot of ways that would make others be envious. But you’re in Texas. You all have been hit hard. You’re dealing with, you’re serving some of the most vulnerable student populations out there. And you’re also preparing them for healthcare, which is a turbulent profession right now. How has it played out in the last few months for you?

Eric Bing: First of all, I have an amazing team and extraordinarily lucky to get to lead the colleges because of this team that is so mission-driven on what we’re doing. But the reality is, is because we built this flipped classroom education, I mean, we have 25% of our students were online and doing boot camps for clinicals and that type of thing already. We have 50% of them were flipped classrooms, so they were already on laptops on an LMS coming in two days a week. The reason we built that is we knew, and you know, again, that Strada study I mentioned, that if we can keep them working while they’re going through, the chances of success are significantly higher. And it’s why we do so well on outcomes. So we were able to move them. It was a Thursday, Friday. We trained, and on Monday, Tuesday, everybody moved over. We did not miss one day of class and how we did this. It was a huge lift. We have some programs in the sonography and surg techs and such that were more ground-based. We went to a synchronous Zoom mode with them, but have been building in all the learning objects and other pieces and moving them on to the LMS platform as we’ve been going. We don’t see ourselves ever really going back. You know, I was just in San Antonio. We have two campuses there. One is in the north side, the other’s in the south side of San Antonio, which is an extraordinarily poor, underserved area. But in talking to students and the staff, there’s definitely students still want to have that connection to the campuses. Now, we’re an essential service, so they’re coming in still once a week, full PPE, socially distanced. It’s all broken up. And Paul, this is an interesting one because we took our boot camp model. We had a single mom MA program that we did boot camps on three weekends for them to get all their clinicals because they couldn’t come to school. And we took that boot camp model and really applied it to all our ground programs. And it’s just been extraordinarily successful. The other thing I would say that I am really proud of is we have had a huge need for healthcare professionals during this pandemic. And we have been able to continue to provide continuity of health care professionals to our partners and the employers out there. It’s changed a little bit on what they’re needing, but it is, we’ve really been able to help during this pandemic, which has been a big part.

Paul Fain: Well, I want to ask you about the the shifting market demand, but before we get there, curious about the impact on your students and and the obstacles they face, if it’s changed much. I mean, as we all know, the disproportionate impact of the pandemic, the recession, has been felt by Black and Latino students, other low-income students. Are you seeing different challenges or worsened challenges? And if so, how is the college scrambling to help students stay on track?

Eric Bing: So, first of all, I never think we should underestimate the resilience of our fellow citizens out there. And, you know, we are all Hispanic and African-American women. We’re less than 15% Caucasian. What we have seen is, first of all, just a true gratitude and thankfulness that we did not stop their education because most, a lot of other schools did. And they are so happy to have that continuity because it is so hard to start up again once you stop. And with everything going on in their lives, I mean, you look at, I mean, I saw a stat in Inside Higher Ed a research paper that 40% of all African-American women in school have children. And you think about trying to balance and you’re in programs and you’re in and out and such. So that is one of the biggest things. And we have not had major drop rates and issues. Are things complicated? Absolutely. And what we’re seeing is more domestic violence, more homelessness issues, more issues with multi-generational living, which is a heavy piece. And it’s something we’re really digging in deep on: on how can we help in those situations where you’ve got the grandparents and aunts and uncles, and then you’ve got younger people bringing COVID into the families. All of these pieces that tie into that. And also now you’ve got your kids, especially the elementary school kids, that are at home doing learning. And the only laptop they might have is the one we give them. I mean, we are huge believers in giving absolutely everything to the student they need. So they get laptops and scrubs and everything, books, nothing is not included, which was also a huge helper in us because we didn’t have to scramble with people. They had all everything they needed. But all of those issues are weighing down. I am really concerned in watching how it’s going to play out with the K through 12 situation this fall, not just for our students, but also our team, our staff members, because you’re trying to, nobody cares more about anything than their children. Trying to make sure, and Paul, look, you’ve got it going. I mean, it’s that, how do you make sure they’re getting that education? But we’ve really ramped up services and staying connected. Because we’re doing clinicals, they do come in one day a week week for that clinical training, and so that gives us a chance to connect. I mean, our online students have never had that, but we are very, very deep with our use of data and technology in watching trends on how we can stay connected before things derail in education. You know, another thing that’s been interesting to me is I really thought we were going to have a huge problem with high-speed internet for our students, but it really has not been the issue. It’s a lot more life pieces. We have done a lot more work finding our students that lost jobs, new employment while they’re with us because we will do that to keep them employed. Obviously, they can’t be in their new career yet, but just to find them jobs, I think we have probably found people more new jobs to help than we have in helped people with the high-speed internet. That has not been a major issue.

Paul Fain: Well, really great stuff there. And I appreciate the reminder to not think about students in that deficit way. You know, been reminded of that a few times lately: that these are resilient folks who can focus on their basic needs as well as their careers at the same time, you know. But just to put a fine point on it, I mean, it sounds like your enrollment has been good throughout this.

Eric Bing: Yes, very, very solid. We’re actually having a very strong growth year.

Paul Fain: Placements too? I mean, that’s your main outcome.

Eric Bing: So yeah, I mean, placement, we are right on track. I really thought because the hospitals and clinics and urgent cares, you know, when it first happened, there was such a change and all the elective surgeries went away and we were all messed up on practicums. And, you know, almost all of our students, other than the healthcare management ones, have externships that they do that’s built into their programs. And a tremendous amount of that is extern straight to hire. But the reality is, is almost all of these programs we have continued right along. There was some pauses. I mean, for an example, a surgical technologist has to do 120 surgeries in order to get certified. Well, there was no elective surgery. So we got behind there. But I’ll tell you, I mean, we cannot supply enough medical assistants right now. And the other thing that I think is, you know, the press spends a tremendous amount of time talking about all the big hospital systems and this and that and whatever. But, you know, just as important during COVID has been the community health infrastructure, if not more important. And also, we can’t forget there’s a lot of stuff still going on out there other than COVID and diabetes and strokes and all of the high blood pressure and all these issues. But we have seen a major surge in more of the community health hiring. And the hospitals have kind of now been coming on a lot more strong with urgent cares and all of that. But medical assisting and the imaging has really been strong. Medical assisting, you know, there’s so many more things now you have to do. You’re checking people in, you’re checking vitals, you’re checking temperatures, you’re doing all of this stuff that never happened. So there’s a real need. I mean, here’s an interesting one. We have had multiple employers in San Antonio, I was hearing this on Monday, medical coding and billing employers that are asking if we will cross-train with basic MA skills, their medical coders and billers. We have never seen that before. And here’s another interesting one, Paul, in the dynamic of how COVID’s changing things: it has always been really the medical coding and billing graduates had to work a couple years in an office before they started working at home, which is a huge thing of coding and billing. I think that’s changed forever out of this because they’re doing their externships at home and they’re being hired straight out of never ever going in the offices. And so it’s interesting little things that are happening out in the market.

Paul Fain: Little things that add up to a lot. And, you know, I can see being nimble is as important as ever. We’re going to take a quick break. Please stick with us.

Paul Fain: If you’re looking to go even more in depth in IHE’s news coverage, check out our special reports. These deep dives feature rich data and reporting, as well as thoughtful, substantive analysis you can trust. Visit insidehighered.com/special-reports to view the topics we’ve covered and to purchase the report that best supports your area of work or study.

Paul Fain: We’ve written about at Inside Higher Ed the growing interest in stackable short-term online alternatives to the degree. I know you all actually have a system in place to do this that is as robust and real as any I’ve heard. I mean, I think the idea of stackability remains a concept more than a reality. But can you talk a little bit about what you’ve done there and how you see it developing going forward so that folks can continue to build on their educations as they work?

Eric Bing: Yeah, I’d be happy to do it. And I want to start off and reference a Strada study that I think really laid it all out very well on how we have thought about stackable and built it. And it was this From College to Life study on relevance. And they had four pieces of it. And one was: these are the four things that matter to adult learners and folks that are trying to retool. Quality of education. And what does that mean? That means is it relatable? Are you not getting stuck in remedial? Are the teachers similar to you? All of those pieces, career readiness, working on fear of failure, which is big, all these pieces that tie in value of education, a career. It’s not about graduation. Everything we do, we have two customers, our student and our employer. Quality of life. We have built education so somebody whose life is complicated, like that single mother I was talking about, she can still be successful. I mean, they’ve got the drive. We call them aspiring professionals. But if you put them in a setting where you say this is the only time your class is going to be, or you can’t ever get to see your faculty because you miss their one time that they’re available, well, you end up with issues. So, and the pathway, knowing where they’re going to go. So, what we did is we totally disaggregated it. We took certifications, nine-month certifications. We put them into flipped classroom because we know our students have to work. And if they work, they’re a lot more stable. And as you just heard me say, we even will find them jobs during their time in school if they lose a job. And in doing that, we also have heavily used adaptive learning and other learning objects that do two things. One is it helps very much rifle-shot learning. Our students don’t have the extra time. Maybe they love it, but they don’t have it. And so how do we make sure they have all the education they need to be successful in their career, but not wasting their time? And in doing it in a way that’s also very respectful. We do not do any remedial classes, any of that. Algebra, physics, all these things are built right into hands-on and training tied to what they’re going to end up doing, whether it be sonography or medical assisting. So then the piece of the next piece of that is that if you want our students to earn and learn, we used to have four-year bachelors and we had a high dropout rate because there is no way you can piece together three and a half, four years, six years if you’re living day to day. And so what our deal is, is let’s make sure we stabilize their life, get them a national certification, have them an externship, which hopefully turns into a job, but make sure they get placed. And then if something happens as they go to their associates and bachelor’s, they don’t fall back into these terrible part-time jobs and pieces that were happening. Out of that, then you can bulk transfer, depending on your programs, into an associate. So, if it’s a medical coding and billing, there’s a revenue cycle associates completion program. It’s about a year. We have a health and medical administrative services, which is an eight-month associates. These are all online programs: a radiology tech for the limited medical radiology techs. And then, all those programs can either bulk, and they can bulk transfer up as they move along. And you’re earning and learning. And the other piece about it, Paul, that is so important is you’re building context, momentum, and success. I mean, you think about it’s kind of like the MBA. They always used to say, take two years and go work, and you’ll get so much more out of your MBA. Well, think of the context as somebody getting their associates, which helps them start for leadership and management. And they’re taking human resources and writing skills and communication after they’ve been working or while they’re working in a professional setting, being a medical assistant or coding and billing, or whatever, versus if you have coming out of working part-time retail somewhere. It’s extraordinarily powerful. I mean, we have a great, you know, great example of this: we have this, you know, this is one of hundreds, but a student, Geordicia Turner. She’s abusive home life, persistent unemployment, stretches the homeless, two kids. Her confidence was destroyed. She bet her cousin that she could go to school and make straight A’s. We had her when she was homeless and didn’t know it at the time, but she is somebody who needed the confidence. She got her MA certificate, straight A student, never missed a day of classes because she wanted to win her bet. She then is making $17 an hour an incredibly flexible job. We could not get her to move when she got her associates because she loves the flexibility and she gets benefits and all the other pieces. And she’s a single mom. And now she’s finishing her bachelor’s. Extraordinarily smart person who wanted to do something but just didn’t have a setting. So all of these pieces tie in. And the other big piece of it is really putting career readiness in from day one and injecting that all the way through the program so that they are, you can’t just, you know, right before you get out, say, okay, let’s get your resume together and get going. Our goal is to really start training the language, the feeling of how to be professional and work in those environments, how to go after a career, all of those things early on. And also our externships make a huge difference in that too, because they get, you know, they, well, a tremendous amount are hired right out of them. And the employers love it too, because it’s like free temp-to-hire. It’s not free for the employers because they are doing a lot of work during the externships. And wraparound services is kind of the last piece. But when you build this matrix and all of this stuff is available out there, you really can have extraordinary success for adult learners. And I’m very optimistic that we have a great opportunity with all of this change and people being forced online. I mean, it forced the rest of our programs that we were in the process of moving those associates’ degrees that we can just help so many more people out there.

Paul Fain: Let me just gut check something that kind of nascent research is showing in some of the interviews I’ve done, but that the working adults that you serve are increasingly interested in these short-term credentials for obvious reasons, you know, flexibility, not being able to bite off so much in a time of uncertainty. But at least so far, this summer, the only data we have is that the undergraduate certificate, at least, a small part of that, was down, way down. So, you know, that kind of paradox of interest, but not enrolling. Is that a reflection of potentially just you know that you want to pursue something, but you’re increasingly unsure that it’ll work out for you? And if you agree that that seems to be happening out there, what can colleges do to do a better job of encouraging students they can make it work?

Eric Bing: My view is: I mean, again, you look at the amazing people we’re serving, but how complicated their lives are. That’s very different than what a UT is serving or a Harvard or other. I mean, when you look at adult learners, there’s all different levels. And I think what we have to do is step back and realize instead of trying to jam a square peg in a round hole on this is how education has been forever, this is how we’ve done things, is we need to step back and look at how we can build flexible education, which we know how to do it now, is in a scalable way that works for the student. And I think when you do that, you create a model. I mean, we have been growing dramatically the last five years, and our outcomes are getting better every year in what we’re doing. A tremendous amount of the people who enroll with us is referral because they know they’re going to, they have a very good chance of getting a career. And when you think about all these equity issues, one of the biggest things that we can do in education is provide a flexible model. That doesn’t mean an easy model or a model that doesn’t give them the education, but a flexible model that works for where people are in their lives. And, you know, an adult learner, somebody who has a, let’s say, English degree, but really can’t find a job with it, and they go to get a cert on coding with General Assembly or something, that’s a very different person than a single mom who is working part-time at the car wash. And so I think if we look at it, and we’ve now moved so many people that as in education to have to look at it from an online perspective and how everybody’s cheese has been moved, whether they wanted it to be or not, is we really have an opportunity. And I saw that Strada study and what came out of it. But the thing that I’m seeing is our students are extremely smart consumers. And they know where they’re going to feel comfortable and have a chance and where they’re not. The problem is, there are not enough colleges that have really built education specifically for adult learners with complicated lives at this point. And it’s hard because you structurally have to change so much. Just the whole siloing in between departments and not being able to look at a student holistically. I mean, when you look at a student’s, their progress holistically, it shows you care. That’s how they feel about it. When you’re broken up, it’s hard, especially when there’s not perspective. I mean, just talking to them 24 hours. I mean, we heavily use data to free up our, so that our faculty know exactly where our students are across the board holistically and our team, even into the career readiness and placement, so that we, you know, we can constantly improve and provide better service to them in the short time we have.

Paul Fain: Well, speaking of time, I’ll let you go here. It’s been really great. And, you know, I appreciate the access to CHCP. The model is one I think folks should definitely watch and draw from. I also appreciate your patience. I know we spoke, what, like several years before I actually wrote about it, but I did get there. And I’m glad to have you on the show now.

Eric Bing: Well, sure. Well, thanks, Paul, and I appreciate it. Our goal is that any way that we can help on a national level to move forward learning for adult learners, we’re there.

Paul Fain: Thanks, Eric. Keep in touch.

Sound clip: This episode is sponsored by Cengage. From online to HyFlex learning, Cengage supports your changing pedagogy at scale. Learn more at cengage.com/institutional. That’s C-E-N-G-A-G-E.com/institutional.

Paul Fain: That’s it for this episode. Thanks, as always, for listening. I’ll be back next week going to be talking about learner record systems with Scott Cheney of Credential Engine and Kendall Bailey from SCI Ventures. I hope you’ll join us. Thanks again.