Weekly Wisdom | 100 Episode Reflection

Bridget Burns: Hi, welcome to another episode of Start the Week with Wisdom. I’m Bridget Burns, the CEO of the University Innovation Alliance.

Doug Lederman: I’m Doug Lederman, editor and co-founder of Inside Higher Ed.

Bridget Burns: Each week, I typically team up with Doug to interview a sitting college president or chancellor or leader in the field, but today is different. And so I have submitted myself for the hot seat so that we can talk about the 100th episode of the Innovating Together podcast, which today that’s what this is.

Doug Lederman: And I have the privilege of turning the tables on Bridget and subjecting her to the treatment that we usually give to the leaders.

Doug Lederman: So before we get to sort of Bridget’s own story, I guess I want to let’s talk a little bit about the podcast itself and kind of how you got it started, why you got it started, and we can then go into a little bit about kind of what we feel you and the higher ed community have learned from it.

Bridget Burns: Yeah, so the Innovating Together podcast, which we often do episodes, Weekly Wisdom, Scholarship to Practice, Innovation Spotlight, it came, I’ll just back, I’ll back things up and I’ll explain Weekly Wisdom, which I guess really starts it, which is right around the time of COVID kicking off, we one knew that people were super bummed out and that there was a palpable sense that people were looking for optimism and leadership. And it really depended on the institution that you were at, whether you were getting that kind of leadership, because not everyone is a compelling leader. And we wanted to try and elevate and amplify the voices that had a vision because, I mean, remember how scared we all were, right? So that’s happening. But there’s also this other thing happening, which is the alliance has existed now for we’ve at this point eight, seven, eight years, and people have asked us to expand for a long time. And we haven’t because we were kind of like, it would be like, it would be like opening up an experiment in the middle of it. So we’ve been the original 11 for a long time, but we had secretly been identifying campuses that we wanted to potentially include when we had surpassed our public goal of 68,000 additional graduates. And so long story short, right in the middle of COVID, right when we started doing Weekly Wisdom, part of the reason for it was that we had identified the institutions we wanted to add, but we needed to vet and interview those presidents and chancellors. And it’s very difficult to get those meetings without signaling that we’re looking at you. And so this was a subversive way for us to be able to interview and talk to and learn from leaders who we were considering including in the alliance. And so that’s where the show starts. Over time, it evolves because it turns out it’s striking a chord with an audience that we know matters and we wanted to serve. And then about a few months in, people started clamoring and saying, can you please record an audio version? And so I think that the best entrepreneurs out there are obsessed with their audience and just let them lead. And for me, learning from our audience what questions they want to hear from, the leaders they want to hear from, and they wanted an audio version, then you create what your audience asks of you. And so that’s where this started is basically the folks in the folks at home told us exactly what they needed. And so now here we are. And it’s wild to think it’s been 100 episodes.

Doug Lederman: It’s interesting because obviously, I mean, the other thing trend that I think it fits into more broadly is, I mean, you mentioned it a little bit, but sort of the leadership is kind of a lonely job in higher education. And a lot of places we don’t do a fantastic job in the industry with professional development and with sort of helping to give people a sense that they’re part of something larger and that there are people elsewhere dealing with some of the same issues and concerns and questions. And obviously, you know, we’re not in these conversations, you haven’t been focused on problem solving exactly, except almost personal problem solving. You know, it’s not, we’re not trying to solve institutions’ problems here, but we’re helping people understand how people lead, how they get through the day, how they, how they, especially during the pandemic. I mean, some of those conversations around leading during that time were pretty remarkable, I think. So if you had to sort of tease out some of the things that have struck you the most about these dozens of conversations, are there things? I have a few thoughts on that, but are there things that have jumped out at you?

Bridget Burns: I’ve just been really inspired by different leaders who I didn’t even know yet. This for me has exposed me to a variety of voices and vantage points that for me, I’ve kind of soaked it up in terms of the leadership lessons. I can think of examples. I don’t think there’s, so there’s one that I often go back to, and it is that one in early COVID where Michael Crow talks about that we’re just that we’re just sailing, that these are choppy winds, these are intense seas, but it’s just sailing. The day-to-day work of leadership is still the same. It’s the nuts and bolts. It’s the same bone structure. It’s just the conditions that change. And for me, that was a pretty profound thing, which, as someone who gets to work with him all the time, he’d never shared that prior. But beyond that, I’ve been also, I would say, I’ve been very surprised by certain leaders’ willingness to talk about themselves or not, and who’s turned down invitations and who has sought them out. That’s been really interesting. And the folks who reach out and who let me know that they listen to this podcast when they’re getting ready in the morning and that this is like their form of professional development. So this, it’s been a, it’s, it’s very much struck the chord of addressing that underlying kind of palpable sense of loneliness that I often perceive in this space. So I don’t think I’m answering your question directly, but I will say that related to it, I think that underlying all of the work of the alliance is trying to accelerate ideas because higher ed is very obsessed with the boundaries of our own institution. And if you raise your eye level up and look around and scan the horizon, the thing that I have noticed throughout my career most consistently is that we all have the exact same problems. They have different shape and size and modality and all that stuff. The texture is different, but it’s the same stuff. It’s how you spend your time. It’s what to put your focus and energy on. It’s this sense of loneliness: am I the only one who’s had to figure out how to do this one thing? Where I go between institutions, I just consistently, whether it’s because of isomorphism or whatever, we’re all struggling with the same stuff. And so, creating a space where people can realize that they are not alone. And in fact, they’re not the only ones who struggled with that for me is part of what’s been missing in higher ed. And for us, we just want ideas to spread faster. And one of the ways it spreads faster is if you are less defensive and protective and have that sense of scarcity, like you have to own your ideas. And if people are more generous with their wisdom, I think that we will therefore be a better place. We’ll be a better workforce. We’ll be a better, we’ll be more effective. So that’s kind of the vision behind it.

Doug Lederman: It’s interesting because I think related to it, and the thing, the way I would answer my own question, is I’ve been most impressed and moved by the people who have kind of shown some vulnerability and some, and I think it’s related to the loneliness a little bit that you talked about. It’s related to this sort of, um, but, but a combination of the people I’ve been most impressed with, and I won’t name names, but I think is, but about sort of the people with humility who have sort of, um, I don’t know, like, expressed true surprise that they’ve gotten where they got. And again, that’s not to say that people who have been targeting moving up or whatever, but I just, I think the people who sort of feel lucky to be where they are, fortunate to be where they are, not lucky, but and who sort of acknowledge that they’re that acknowledge that and acknowledge what they don’t know. I don’t know. For me, I’ve been, I’ve been, some of those people have really struck me.

Bridget Burns: Yeah. I’m kind of a junkie for advice and like, how do you actually physically do this thing? Like what time of day do you wake up? What’s your morning routine look like? What kinds of conversations do you try and make yourself have to make sure you’re really doing the right work? So the people who’ve gotten into like that nuts and bolts stuff for me has been, that’s been some, that’s been fun for me. And sometimes people will share something in a, in the, because we always do a prep call prior where I just to, you know, having the trust of presidents to go live on the internet is a lot. And so part of it is I’m trying to assuage any concern so they realize I’m not going to, you know, pull gotcha questions. But in those private conversations, sometimes they will share things that they don’t share on the show. And it is, they need that coaxing of vulnerability because there is this posturing and like rigid wearing your dad’s suit vibe for that job sometimes, where it feels like people put on the presidency and they’re trying to act presidential. But the most presidential moments have been ones that really people are showing their true heart and they are being the most human. So I think that you’ve seen that in many episodes, just like you said.

Doug Lederman: Definitely. And that’s the thing when I’m not talking about vulnerability. I’m just talking about vulnerability, like, man, this is hard. Or, you know, here’s how I got through this period when I was dealing with this. And it’s just, it’s, it’s really emotional vulnerability more than anything else. And I just think that’s a, I think that putting on a suit is an interesting analogy. And I agree with it. It’s, it’s like, this is a chance for people to sort of, when they, when they get it and when, and they, they are willing to say, and yeah, that’s especially good. I’m not surprised they take their, you know, trust you, a little less likely to trust me as the mean, evil journalist sometimes. But I think I’ve been able to show that I can contain myself.

Bridget Burns: You definitely have it. I do part of what I’m trying to do is ask them to please not bring the talking point version of themselves. I am so tired of seeing these cardboard cutout versions of the presidency where people are, you know, parroting here’s only talking about their institution or talking about the certain things that they talk about. And I’m just like, you know, that’s fine. But like, I, this is about wisdom. This is about sharing insights that you’ve learned that are probably not something that is already on a poster somewhere. So it does take trust for them to get there. But, you know, sometimes they will come in and their team has prepared them to do that. And I’m like, please don’t, please don’t. And please don’t talk more than two minutes at a time. And please like, cause we want to, because again, if you stay obsessed with serving your audience, they will tell you what they need. And we can look at the viewership numbers and we know what questions they like and we can see what people engage with. And for me, this is about serving them. And so, yeah, in those advocacy moments, I’m also making sure they know Doug’s a good guy. He’s not going to, he’s not.

Doug Lederman: He can bite, but he rarely does. Rarely, rarely bites. So let’s turn the tables on you and subject you to some of the stuff we tend to ask the other guests. And so I know one of your favorite questions is whether sort of, you know, again, focusing on sort of how you’ve developed as a leader, you like to ask people whether they’ve learned more from a positive example of leadership or from a negative one. And I’m curious how you answer that question.

Bridget Burns: So if you’d asked me before age 30, I would say I’ve learned a lot more from negative because I had worked with a lot of presidents. By the time I was 30, I think I’d worked with probably close to 20 college presidents at the time. And I have definitely learned what not to do and how not to engage and how not to inspire people from certain examples in my mind. Once I met President Crow, which I think I was like 34, that was for me, I had reached this point where I had seen a lot of examples of leadership, but I just like that kind of like got your blood pumping visionary leadership had been missing. I had a lot of questions about whether he was for real. I had questions about, you know, a lot of things. And watching him and observing him over the course of a year during my ACE fellowship was profound for me about leadership because he was for real. And I didn’t, and also just watching someone go through the gauntlet of the day of that role and then how they managed to treat people and how they manage, like the way that he always helps people see a much bigger idea than they could possibly fathom. Like he’s always looking way beyond the horizon and it’s an invitation for all of us to see ourselves in that alternate reality together. Like that’s why it’s like defined not by who we exclude, but who we include and how they succeed. That is everything. And it doesn’t matter what the kind of conversation you’ll be having. Every moment he is like, he’s like lifting your chin up and you’re seeing a bigger idea. And that is one of the ways to lead that I’ve tried to emulate that honestly was missing. And it’s missing in a lot of places. I’ve seen a lot of presidents. I remember coming into the ACE fellowship really with a very clear point of view that I don’t think is wrong, which is there are a lot of people who have managed or administrated their way into the presidency, and they are a good manager, a good administrator, but there are actually very few true iconic leaders, true people who have a clear, compelling vision, get you excited and enrolled in that vision. And I would say that was one, that’s probably one of the most profound lessons I learned: that leadership is a real thing. It is actually something you can emulate. And whenever I’m struggling with figuring out what the next vision is, that’s when I know I need to spend some time and reflection so that I can lead effectively.

Doug Lederman: So, I don’t know how much people, even those who might watch every week, may not know all that much about what you do in your current leadership role at UIA, but you are in this slightly strange position. You work for a bunch of presidents, but you also sort of lead them or help pull them in from behind. Yeah, exactly. So, talk a little bit about kind of that role. And, you know, you work with a group of leaders, you are trying to help them move in a common direction, but yeah, but not by telling them, you know, what to do. But so, to talk a little bit about kind of what that has taught you, what helping to lead or work with leaders has taught you about leadership.

Bridget Burns: The most important characteristic that informs the work I do is curiosity. Like, I have a genuine desire to understand people, what makes them tick. I don’t believe I need to be understood, but I really deeply desire to understand other people. And especially, I really think everything about our work has always been rooted in start with empathy. And so, spending a lot of time in and around institutions and observing the leadership roles that I’ve had the privilege of observing, again, I saw time and time again, and I see that now, that they all have the same problems. And what I want to understand, and I try and focus in my work, is being obsessed with identifying what’s underlying, what are the big challenges and what are the things they need to deliver. And what I do is, I’m kind of like a shuttle diplomat and a weaver between all of them. I matchmake, you have this problem. Well, guess what? X president also has that same problem. You’re not alone. Let’s get you together. Or sometimes they don’t get to talk to each other, but I am shepherding lessons between my institutions. Again, this is about the loneliness of the job. And it’s also that everyone who is a president interacts with, it can often feel like you have a bunch of sycophants in the echo chamber at times, and every person you interact with either wants something from you or works for you. And it’s very hard to have moments where you feel like people are truly being transparent. And I’m not because people really are trying to be, but at the end of the day, like it’s weird for you to be yourself with Ross, right? And so that is something that I lead, I do most of my work just based on this genuine care and concern for them. And that this seems really like a hard job. I don’t know that I could do it because it seems so hard. I’ve worked with now over probably 48 presidents and chancellors in my career. And my job now is to help them see a shared, bigger collective vision to help them, what I learned from one campus bring to another in terms of helping them be able to coach their teams, coach their institution, and push their institution to be more ambitious around student success. And I work for a board of presidents, and all this work is designed by the institutions to serve them and to help them solve their shared problems. And what I really do is always try and encourage this work to be to making them slightly uncomfortable, right? Like, so they’re the leaders, but I just always want to have, we’re moving a little bit faster than they would probably want to. And that’s what they expect of me is to help them be driving and being more ambitious, whether it’s about scaling, whether it’s about innovating. So yeah, I think my job is, it’s a wonderful one, but I have the benefit of being a, I’m a very curious person. I find them fascinating. These jobs are fascinating. These people are really interesting. I’m really lucky to work for such good people. I even got to choose the people I work for in some cases. And I just want them to be able to be as effective as possible. And so the thing I’m trying to work on right now is reducing transition and turnover. It’s the greatest threat to my work. It’s the greatest threat to higher ed. It’s the greatest threat to our students because institutions, when they turn over a president, you lose basically five years of progress. Like if I had a chance to do another dissertation, I would regress institutions across the country based on presidential tenure and turnover. And I could identify characteristics of what an institution that’s truly innovating look like. And you could see that there is a very common thread. So I’m trying to help make it so that people last longer in these jobs, which are very impossible. And I think part of that is Weekly Wisdom is helping to create and shine a light on the kinds of behavior and the kinds of leaders we want to see more of.

Doug Lederman: How would you define, what are you most proud of as a leader? What do you feel like you, I don’t know whether you, what you’ve, what you, what you feel are, I don’t know if it’s, it’s the same as what you feel your strengths are, but what, what do you feel like, what have been your best, biggest accomplishments as a leader?

Bridget Burns: So I, it’s probably surprising, but my biggest accomplishments already happened, and it’s prior to the UIA. And I don’t know that there will be, I’m really proud of this work. I’m so proud of you.

Doug Lederman: All downhill from here.

Bridget Burns: Just in terms of impact, so I had a career before this where I was the, you know, I’ve been very fortunate, right? Growing up in a low-income family, becoming, getting appointed to the State Board of Higher Education when I’m 22 years old, involved in the hiring and firing of college presidents at 22, 23, become the chief of staff for a university system by the time I’m, I think, 29, 20, 30. And when I was ready to finally transition from being chief of staff of the university system, I had accumulated a lot of political capital. And I didn’t, and I’m always very intentional about not spending my political capital. I always want to be taking care of people and not asking for favors. So I had some, and I had been working in the legislature on behalf of the Oregon University System for quite some time. And there was this bill that always just would always get up, but we would stop it from happening, which was around helping former foster youth have access to essentially getting their tuition paid. This is a bill that has gone around in many states, but at the time in Oregon, I didn’t know anything about this. This is prior to me coming into overseeing government relations as one of my side hustles. Apparently, this had come up time before and many times, and the university system would be like, hey, if you’re not going to pay for it to the state, we’re not going to do it. So I understand that. But again, I was wrapping things up. I was about to go away out of the ACE fellowship. I had just been appointed to the Commission on Children and Families. I’d spent a lot of time understanding the challenges of former foster youth. And I had a boss who really kind of let me do what I wanted to and trusted my judgment. And so I, right before I left, I cashed in all my political capital and told the presidents that this was going to happen to us, whether we were part of it or not, which, you know, yes, I think eventually was going to happen. It was going to happen eventually, but it was probably several years down the road. And they trust, they agreed, and they were like, okay. And so I actually got to go and push for that legislation and get it passed, making it so that former foster youth got their had zero like unmet need basically was covered by the institutions. And then later, like I think two years later, I was giving a keynote speech, and two former foster youth, two girls were standing on the side of the stage, and they were like coming up to talk to me afterward. And they were like crying, and they told me like they’d gone to college because—

Doug Lederman: Well, maybe there’s another, maybe you can have uh uh I think you can probably do something something like that again. We’ll work—

Bridget Burns: Oh, yeah, no, I mean, but it’s like top that, so it’d be like especially at that age, yeah, raising like 40 million dollars, uh, the 118,000 additional graduates, building the alliance, all these incredible things that great people want really hard without that moment.

Doug Lederman: Yeah, yeah, I get it. Um, so um, we’re probably uh let’s let’s uh let’s go to your your usual uh sort of wrap-up questions that are that are uh—

Bridget Burns: By the way, this is like a very Bridget Burns move: is that of course you made me tear up first, right? Like, most people don’t know that, but yes, my emotions are very accessible.

Doug Lederman: There you go. Um, so best advice you’ve ever received about leadership, presumably, or leadership that have helped you in your well, helped you in your leadership, or that have helped you be who you are?

Bridget Burns: I mean, the thing that helped me in my career was advice that I’ve from someone who later became my best friend, but was like my roommate at the time. Do the job you want to do, not just the job you’re given. It was the most powerful advice that I got because my job was very defined at the time, and I wanted to do bigger things. I saw things that needed to be done, but because they didn’t look like they were in my lane, I kind of needed that permission. And when I got that advice from a year, a year from that, I became senior policy advisor and chief of staff of the university system. And I’ve been doing policy and research before that. And it was entirely because I just started doing the work that needed to be done. If I saw a problem, I tried to, you know, not do it like me on top, like telling people what to do. But if there was work that needed to be supported, I didn’t need to be asked to do it. And if I see a problem, I try and solve it and I try and address it. I try and do it in a way that invites people to be part of it. But that changed my career. And it has been, it was the single, it was at the crux of the moment in my career where I could have gone down a very narrow path and I instead ended up with this incredible opportunity, which then turns into this. So that one piece, and I always give that to our fellows, especially, like, there’s a lot of work out there that doesn’t have a home or a champion. And if you want to do that kind of work, then you do that on top of your job. And that’s actually how you get career opportunities. It’s not that you wait for someone to direct you to do those things. The other thing that’s been super powerful is not be less interested in who gets credit for the work. I think that I’m so much more generous and do my best work when I am not worried about whether I’m going to get credit for it. And it’s time and time again, you can tell when people have that scarcity mentality and they are afraid whether or not they’re going to get credit. And it just makes them less enjoyable to work with, less fun to be around. They do their, you know, when I’m guarding my boundaries, like I’m not going to be, I’m not going to shoot for the moon fully. So that’s important. And I would just say always under-promise and over-deliver. Be the kind of person who’s known for getting stuff done and for bringing people along when you do it. Those are the things I always tell our fellows. And that’s all gleaned from the wisdom of others. But I would say, sorry, I’m like taking, I’m like, thank you for the chance for giving me a TED talk of this. I would say I learned a lot from other places, but I did learn quite a bit from Freeman Hrabowski. Obviously, President Crow, I learned a lot from him around just the real job of leadership. And I would say at its core, the advice is that taking care of yourself is the actual job because Mike told me that the number one job of leadership, it’s about, it’s really just about making decisions time and time again. And so the number one thing you have to do is focus on preserving your energy because decision making is hard and leading is hard. But if you don’t focus on like protecting and preserving your energy so that you have the energy to do the job, then you cannot be a leader. And Freeman Hrabowski, when you ask him the underlying issue that is the most important thing for leadership, it is about taking care of yourself. Like I tell this story about how he did P90X with his ACE fellow every night. And, you know, he really believed in it. And I think that’s helpful for people to give you permission to really take care of yourself. And I see it as my job. My job every day includes meditating, journaling, exercising so that I have energy and making sure I’m taking care of up here, in here, like otherwise I can’t be a good leader.

Doug Lederman: So I think you pretty much just answered the question about the advice you give to others as well, pretty much. Did you wrap those into two?

Bridget Burns: I think that, yeah, some of the stuff I always share with our fellows is in there. I would say the most underlying, like important thing is to focus on Maya Angelou’s, right? How people feel when they’re around you is really what matters. And that when you come into any new circumstance, we have a tendency to try and describe to people why we deserve to be there. And I definitely had that insecurity for a large part of my career because, you know, you have some imposter stuff because of growing up in a low-income family, otherwise, and higher ed is very like status-oriented. And so you’re always going into a meeting or a conversation, like, I deserve to be here. I went to Harvard or, you know, whatever. And as much as you can work to quiet that in yourself and actually focus on curiosity and trying to learn about other people and being interested in them, it changes everything. Because when I meet new people and they can tell I genuinely care about them, they will always remember that. But the braggy, boasty, like me explaining, I deserve to be here because I used to be the chief of staff of blah, blah, blah. Nobody likes that girl. Nobody likes that woman. So don’t be her. So yeah, I would say focus on tapping into really caring and being as interested as possible. And people will like people really want to answer a hard, an interesting question about themselves. Giving people a question that helps them, gives them the gift of contemplation and reflection is like one of the kindest things you can do. And I love doing that for people. And I also am actually curious about them. So that has been really helpful for me. And I always recommend that for other people.

Doug Lederman: You almost always close, we almost always close with asking people about the books they’ve read that have influenced them the most. And I’ve been, you know, a lot of the answers are leadership books, but I’ve been stunned by, you know, there’d be people who’ve talked about, you know, Italian literature and some wild stuff. What’s on your list?

Bridget Burns: I have them right here. I have Leadership and Self-Deception and The Speed of Trust. If there’s one book that you read as a leader, Leadership and Self-Deception, huge, makes a huge difference. And we always recommend that for folks because basically your brain is set up to tell you that you’re right and that other people are wrong. And it’s one of the important things as a leader to understand that your mind is set up to do that and to ensure that you don’t deceive yourself. Because often I, if I do something or I say something and, you know, there’s a part of me that’s like, yeah, but they were in the wrong. Like I was right to do that. No, no, no, no, no. That initial instinct, that feeling I had that maybe that wasn’t the right thing, that is the instinct I need to listen to, which is to go and apologize, to own it, to be to be more generous. So Leadership and Self-Deception, 10 out of 10 totally changes, whether it’s how you lead in your home life, in your personal life, or professionally, just knowing that you have to intentionally choose not to be deceived, to believe that you are always right and to actively seek out perspectives that counter that. But then, for me, I think in an important growth phase for the UIA, Speed of Trust, just understanding you cannot make withdrawals unless you’ve made deposits, right? And so, building trust with people before you’re asking for favors and understanding that, you know, trust is really a lubricant. It makes things move so much faster. Like, Doug, you and I, when if I needed something from you, we have a level of trust that we could probably move on a deal so much faster than anyone who you’re trying to get to know, right? And just understanding that trust seems like a nice to do, it’s the most important thing. And like, that’s why I always try and never, um, you know, always over-delivering whenever I make a promise. Super important. I think those are the those are the big ones that I would say were most helpful for me.

Doug Lederman: Um, great to, uh, in this special, special way of special episode, great to learn more about you and spend some time. Uh, well, and congrats to uh Weekly Wisdom.

Bridget Burns: Yeah, and the Innovating Together podcast, I, um, thanks everybody for listening. It’s such, I still sometimes when I meet people who tell like tell me that they listen all the time, I’m like, I’m just so grateful because I like during COVID, I stopped listening to work-related stuff podcasts because there wasn’t a commute. And so, I’m just like, I people giving you their time and their attention is the most generous thing they could ever do. And I take that very seriously. And we always want to make sure that we’re creating content that really serves people and helps them. And so, thank you for the privilege. And thanks for doing an episode that you made me tear up, which, you know, this is so live that we’re, I can’t cut it out, but that’s okay. Folks, we will see you soon and be able to share with you the 101st episode of Weekly Wisdom and Innovating Together podcast. Bye, guys.